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  • lunatic211lunatic211 Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I'm not twisting anything. I'm just trying to get at the nuance of what you were saying.

    At your power level (even adjusting for swapping in the radiant enchants), IBS should be hitting for around 5k or so without crit. So add 40% to that to assume that you have a full stack of destroyers purpose, that means about 7k yellow damage before mitigation. I guess you probably have the critical severity feat (name escapes me at the moment), so that's what - 90% severity? So around 13300 tops crit damage without mitigation. I suppose the 10% bonus from being in unstoppable could push that up to 14.5-15k, but then that's with 0% mitigation from the target (and of course, everyone has 10% innate mitigation in PvP to damage and crits).

    So... how is this happening? Particularly against geared opponents? What are you doing that's making this happen?

    What is your IGN?

    There are so many factors youa re leaving out, why even bother doing the math if you can't include every single factor? Do you even know what a plaguefire does? Are you even factoring in all the arpen along with resistance ignored included from CON? Are you even considering the destroyer purpose stacks which stack up VERY quickly with plaguefire? Don't talk to me about math until you include every single detail. Or you can just do what the rest of us have been doing and PLAY THE GAME and SEE for yourself!
  • forumnamesarelamforumnamesarelam Member Posts: 126 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    lunatic211 wrote: »
    What is your IGN?

    There are so many factors youa re leaving out, why even bother doing the math if you can't include every single factor? Do you even know what a plaguefire does? Are you even factoring in all the arpen along with resistance ignored included from CON? Are you even considering the destroyer purpose stacks which stack up VERY quickly with plaguefire? Don't talk to me about math until you include every single detail. Or you can just do what the rest of us have been doing and PLAY THE GAME and SEE for yourself!

    Why are you getting so aggro? I know that plaguefire reduces armor, but it's not a flat reduction, it's a percentage emulation, up to 45%. So yeah... 20% mitigation (what geared player only has 20% mitigation?) becomes 11%, then tenacity get's factored in - I mean I can see the basement only being at about 20% or so mitigation assuming the player has *some* tenacity.

    If I'm doing this wrong, then just respond with the right way to do it instead of getting all upset. I'm honestly trying to figure out how this is possible.

    Also, I do play the game a lot. Probably too much.
  • jtrivjtriv Member Posts: 1
    edited May 2014
    GWFs are basically fighting a bunch of helpless punching bags who cannot fight back at this point because all their normal counters to ALL the GWF powers are completely nerfed...

    So... one side's stuff works... the other sides does not.... Can you with a straight face tell me the GWfs would be holding all the top spots.... if not for Control Power Nerfs on DCs and CWs... and the Massive Damage nerf to Rogues?

    You're lying if you think so...

    Ergo, what you REALLY have is a bunch of wannabe's playing GWFs thinking they're uber when in reality they're ONLY uber.... because the other classes counters to ALL the GWFs effects.... have been nerfed into the ground.
    Causing these very problems....

    Basically.... a GWF is ONLY invulnerable.... or OP... because of all these assanine short sighted nerfs that CAUSED this problem in the first place. Its got nothing to do with ANY actual GWF powers.

    i said before the problems nerfs. but to say no CW TR or other class cant take down an equal gear GWF now or pre mod 3 is a plain lie. and like i said again. the main feat of the game is PVE. so all this crying over PVP is ridic. because without CWs and GWFs the way they are now youd all be hurt in any PVE dungeon. and lets get to the main thing really, Its party/team game. there really isnt sapposed to be 1vs1. And about our action point gain. GFs have the fastest action point gain. my GF gains actions points way faster than my GWF. infact a few blocks and 3 encounters and im at a daily. the only thing ill agree on is iron vanguard should be taken from GWF and we be given a new one. Its stupid. i dont have a shield. front line surge and our at-will given for iron dont even look like GWF moves. i feel this was lazyness of devs part. really. but then again i dont use iron van so im not in that category. And high dps GWFs are squishy. period. if there super high DPS and tanking there all out.
  • demonkyuubidemonkyuubi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Why are you getting so aggro? I know that plaguefire reduces armor, but it's not a flat reduction, it's a percentage emulation, up to 45%. So yeah... 20% mitigation (what geared player only has 20% mitigation?) becomes 11%, then tenacity get's factored in - I mean I can see the basement only being at about 20% or so mitigation assuming the player has *some* tenacity.

    If I'm doing this wrong, then just respond with the right way to do it instead of getting all upset. I'm honestly trying to figure out how this is possible.

    Also, I do play the game a lot. Probably too much.

    isn't it easy to get at least 10% armor pen from CON and 24% from the actual stat. that pretty much negates almost everyone's defense stat right from the start.
  • forumnamesarelamforumnamesarelam Member Posts: 126 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    isn't it easy to get at least 10% armor pen from CON and 24% from the actual stat. that pretty much negates almost everyone's defense stat right from the start.

    Sorta, but there are a lot of "buts". One of the biggest ones is that tenacity isn't affected by all this, which is why it's such a good stat for PvP (same with deflection honestly). So I'm having a hard time understanding how a character like lunatic211's using such garbage gear (even if the enchants are good) could IBS crit that high against geared opponents. If all the moons were aligned for him (full stacks of destroyers purpose and he managed to entirely negate all of the opponents DR with his Arpen + plaguefire) he should still only be able to cap out around 11k or so against anyone wearing the T2 (grim or profound) armor sets.

    Which is a lot mind you, but not insane.
  • silverquicksilverquick Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    jtriv wrote: »
    i said before the problems nerfs. but to say no CW TR or other class cant take down an equal gear GWF now or pre mod 3 is a plain lie. and like i said again.

    The problem IS nerfs, but right now, the GWF can utilize all of their abillities in PvP... the other classes cannot.

    So one side's things all work... the other sides do not... I do not how you can reasonably this is the not the reason they're having issues in PvP... because its directly related to the cause of All GWFs in the top bracket.

    If the rest of the classes were able to use their own powers that weren't nerfed... there's no way in Hell the entire top bracket would be GWF dominated. This isn't because ALL players in the game are stupid... its because they're all fighting you with one hand tied behind their back.

    I'll take that to the bank and guarantee you.... if they were un-nerfed right now and you had to take them on with their REAL abillities... you would be in for a shock...

    ... they'd be right up there with the GWFs... and the rest of the crew would be in for a real eye opener...
    the main feat of the game is PVE. so all this crying over PVP is ridic. because without CWs and GWFs the way they are now youd all be hurt in any PVE dungeon. and lets get to the main thing really, Its party/team game. there really isnt sapposed to be 1vs1.

    Actually.. no... that is incorrect.

    But... lets un-nerf the rest of the classes and see how well you fare then?

    Want to bet me money things change in a big hurry?

    I bet the "GWFs are OP" talk goes away in a HUGE hurry...
  • lunatic211lunatic211 Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Sorta, but there are a lot of "buts". One of the biggest ones is that tenacity isn't affected by all this, which is why it's such a good stat for PvP (same with deflection honestly). So I'm having a hard time understanding how a character like lunatic211's using such garbage gear (even if the enchants are good) could IBS crit that high against geared opponents. If all the moons were aligned for him (full stacks of destroyers purpose and he managed to entirely negate all of the opponents DR with his Arpen + plaguefire) he should still only be able to cap out around 11k or so against anyone wearing the T2 (grim or profound) armor sets.

    Which is a lot mind you, but not insane.

    okay? so what's the problem i said 10-15k is my range of IBS crits since i geared him so i don't see why you're trying to argue when you just admitted you could see me hitting 11K on IBS alone, now factor in a 9k takedown, then a FLS or roar crit on top of a 10K daily crit you can see the damage adding up now?

    And if i have such trash gear like you say, is it so hard to imagine a better geared GWF hitting 15K IBS crits on well geared people?
  • cookiecrisp15cookiecrisp15 Banned Users Posts: 532 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    tbh i could do 15k crit ibs with sent build b4 mod 3
    so who gives a **** about destro doing 15k in mod 3?while they lose alot of surv
  • slushlikewindslushlikewind Member Posts: 272 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    I'm not twisting anything. I'm just trying to get at the nuance of what you were saying.

    At your power level (even adjusting for swapping in the radiant enchants), IBS should be hitting for around 5k or so without crit. So add 40% to that to assume that you have a full stack of destroyers purpose, that means about 7k yellow damage before mitigation. I guess you probably have the critical severity feat (name escapes me at the moment), so that's what - 90% severity? So around 13300 tops crit damage without mitigation. I suppose the 10% bonus from being in unstoppable could push that up to 14.5-15k, but then that's with 0% mitigation from the target (and of course, everyone has 10% innate mitigation in PvP to damage and crits).

    So... how is this happening? Particularly against geared opponents? What are you doing that's making this happen?

    No wonder your gwf is so bad... I run into you today by the way.

    40% dmg bonus from Cap stone. Destroyer feat gives total 33% extra at 3 stacks. That makes your IBS hit for 10k non crit. Destroyer feat is misleading on tooltip btw.

    Rampage madness is always up since GPF stack. That is extra 600 power which push IBS to 11k non crit.

    Destroyer feat can be swapped out with trample the fallen combine with sent tree mark target receive 15% increase dmg can achieve the same result and ideally even higher dmg.

    Now do your math again.
  • suddenlyslowsuddenlyslow Member Posts: 818 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    SE now hits for 3 to 5k non crit...
  • slushlikewindslushlikewind Member Posts: 272 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    SE now hits for 3 to 5k non crit...

    That is because you use it when they have tons of health left...
  • midnightfang93midnightfang93 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    No wonder your gwf is so bad... I run into you today by the way.

    40% dmg bonus from Cap stone. Destroyer feat gives total 33% extra at 3 stacks. That makes your IBS hit for 10k non crit.

    Rampage madness is always up since GPF stack. That is extra 600 power which push IBS to 11k non crit.

    Destroyer feat can be swapped out with trample the fallen combine with sent tree mark target receive 15% increase dmg can achieve the same result and ideally even higher dmg.

    Now do your math again.

    Its 22.5% for the Destroyer feat (12% + 10.5%).
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    in short: the alleged 28k at the beginning of the topic are actually 15? and "15k" are among 10k and 15k "?
  • midnightfang93midnightfang93 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    zacazu wrote: »
    in short: the alleged 28k at the beginning of the topic are actually 15? and "15k" are among 10k and 15k "?

    No, its still possible to hit extremely high, but on squishy people mostly :P.
  • slushlikewindslushlikewind Member Posts: 272 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    Its 22.5% for the Destroyer feat (12% + 10.5%).

    Tooltip dmg indicates something different.

    You can do easy test and find out that it is not 22.5%.
  • midnightfang93midnightfang93 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Tooltip dmg indicates something different.

    You can do easy test and find out that it is not 22.5%.

    Really? Well then, that's interesting.

    Edit: I'm getting a consistent ~42.3-42.4% damage increase from Destroyer on my end.

    IBS: 5,787-6,940 -> 8,240-9,882
    FLS: 3,567-4,278 -> 5,079-6091
    Sure Strike: 947-1,136 -> 1,349-1,617

    etc. The powers I generally use all seem to show that trend.

    Edit2: All I did was use wicked strike enough to get 3 stacks and check the tooltip; never did anything else to apply any extra buffs outside of my normal stuff (companion/bonfire boost/etc.)
  • suddenlyslowsuddenlyslow Member Posts: 818 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    That is because you use it when they have tons of health left...

    No, I don't use it at all anymore.
  • forumnamesarelamforumnamesarelam Member Posts: 126 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    No, its still possible to hit extremely high, but on squishy people mostly :P.

    Well, that's mostly it. When/if the stars align and you happen to be facing down a target that is really squishy, then you might be able to pull off an IBS hit between 10 and 15k. Maybe.

    There's really nothing very shocking about that. I've seen CW's send noobs to the campfire before (including my own **** butt at one point) with similar caveats.
  • proneificationproneification Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 494 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    Well, that's mostly it. When/if the stars align and you happen to be facing down a target that is really squishy, then you might be able to pull off an IBS hit between 10 and 15k. Maybe.

    There's really nothing very shocking about that. I've seen CW's send noobs to the campfire before (including my own **** butt at one point) with similar caveats.

    Not entirely true. Target can have 20% tenacity and geared for PvP, if you have decent gear and perfect vorpal (which you shouldn't have anymore), you will hit 25K+ IBS.

    CWs also can hit like crazy these days. However, the difference here is that I'm also 40K HP and very tanky (yes, even as a destroyer), while CW is squish fodder, that dies in less than 10 seconds to me and has less damage, less CC (thanks to Roar... thanks Cryptic for loving us so much!) and less survivability.
  • forumnamesarelamforumnamesarelam Member Posts: 126 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    Not entirely true. Target can have 20% tenacity and geared for PvP, if you have decent gear and perfect vorpal (which you shouldn't have anymore), you will hit 25K+ IBS.

    CWs also can hit like crazy these days. However, the difference here is that I'm also 40K HP and very tanky (yes, even as a destroyer), while CW is squish fodder, that dies in less than 10 seconds to me and has less damage, less CC (thanks to Roar... thanks Cryptic for loving us so much!) and less survivability.

    Well, the point is that you're not hitting for 25k IBS against geared opponents in PvP and being very tanky (40k hp!) at the same time. It's actually mathematically impossible given the current gear that is available in the game unless there are some major buffs/debuffs at play and just the right set of circumstances. People like to point at an outlier and scream, "OMG LOOK AT THAT!" without taking into consideration all of the variables and other factors around the circumstance that made it possible. I've gotten hit recently for 28k by an ice knife in domination. I don't go around screaming "OMG ICE KNIFE IS OP!" because I know that there was a very specific set of circumstances that allowed that to happen and it's not the norm.

    I bought myself a greater plague fire today and started fooling around with it in IWD and GG. I didn't notice that it had any material impact on increasing my burst damage, although it did make handling TR's pretty much childs play. I also switched out FLS for Roar and while it did make 1 on 1 fights a lot easier, it has substantially less burst (or lethality) compared to FLS. Not sure I like that either, but it might be something I have to get used to since unfortunately I live in an area of the world that constantly gets from 300 to 500 ms ping times to the servers. Roar is kind of a crutch that lets me land my encounter chain when my lag is bad, particularly against classes with a lot of dodges.

    Also, one of the things that people are seriously neglecting is to take into account the 30% bonus damage (with feats) on IBS against targets on low health. Sure, you might get a massive crit on someone who is at a quarter life, but if you only needed 8k or so to kill them, a perfectly normal pre-patch IBS crit would have done that just as well and the extra damage is just wasted. Attempt the same attack on someone with full life, and your numbers are going to be much more reasonable compared to where they were during module 2.

    Frankly, this is a highly gear driven game and I think most of the class mechanics across the board are fine, but that the itemization sometimes is what kills or elevates certain classes. Right now, the GWF is walking a pretty tight line on the itemization that is available to them and it appears that Cryptic took notice of this with how they put together the black ice gear for this module in conjunction with some of the nerfs that they did. There's a really clear divide now between crit severity and armor reduction available where before you could easily have both with a feat + p. vorpal. There's also a clear divide now between having defensive gear and doing heaps of damage in PvP with the nerf to how deep gash works.

    Anyway, I think they're paying attention and I mostly agree with all of the changes they made in the last patch (except maybe the stealth nerf they did to PvP DC's).

    I'll start QQing about all this once I start seeing scrub characters putting up serious numbers in PvP. Right now it's not happening - instead what I am seeing is that some of the very geared characters have adopted and are back to pwning those scrubs just like they were before the patch. So basically, business as usual.
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    the point is: the initial damage - and to quote deflect presume that this effect worked against ibs... or no? is just for impact? - is almost 3x smaller than it is in?

    in short, all of this discussion, this false feedback, not merely a cheap attempt to bring a nerf to the class.

    it is not a wonder?

    I hope the moderator, rather than spend the feedback "are complaining about gwf" pass feedback "They want to overthrow the class again."
  • hamletswordshamletswords Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,320 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    zacazu wrote: »
    So basically, business as usual.

    Yup. GWFs were ridiculously OP before and are ridiculously OP now. Business as usual I guess. Way to fix the class.
    My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Yup. GWFs were ridiculously OP before and are ridiculously OP now. Business as usual I guess. Way to fix the class.

    As far as I know the only class that will "fix" is the cw.

    but these pressures the forum woefully work. maybe you got a nerf for gwf first.

    tragic.
  • forumnamesarelamforumnamesarelam Member Posts: 126 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    Yup. GWFs were ridiculously OP before and are ridiculously OP now. Business as usual I guess. Way to fix the class.

    If you can't get away from a GWF with 6 dodges, marauders dash and fox shift, then I can obviously understand how you feel about this.
  • hamletswordshamletswords Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,320 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    If you can't get away from a GWF with 6 dodges, marauders dash and fox shift, then I can obviously understand how you feel about this.

    I'm not playing my HR right now, I'm playing my GWF. It's basically the only way to be effective and counter the GWFs the other team is going to have. I can kill a GWF on my HR but the price for missing one dodge is too extreme now.

    Also it's not just about IBS- I'm not even using IBS all the time. Everything hits harder. I'm hitting freaking 10k knockdowns on people. Knockdown! This used to be pretty much a utility ability.

    Using Takedown, Roar and Frontline Surge I have tons of CC and plenty of DPS.

    I'm finishing most matches like 10-20/3 with a 12.8k GS.
    My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I'm not playing my HR right now, I'm playing my GWF. It's basically the only way to be effective and counter the GWFs the other team is going to have. I can kill a GWF on my HR but the price for missing one dodge is too extreme now.

    Also it's not just about IBS- I'm not even using IBS. Everything hits harder. I'm hitting freaking 10k knockdowns on people. Knockdown! This used to be pretty much a utility ability.

    Using Takedown, Roar and Frontline Surge I have tons of CC and plenty of DPS, finishing most matches like 10-20/3 with a 12.8k GS.
    I can see I'm going to have to dust down and gear up that GWF alt I retired when I got bored of facerolling everything.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • hamletswordshamletswords Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,320 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    I can see I'm going to have to dust down and gear up that GWF alt I retired when I got bored of facerolling everything.

    The facerolling is definitely worse than ever. I just killed a CW in 2 crits- knockdown and IBS. Didn't even have to go for a second prone lol.
    My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    The facerolling is definitely worse than ever. I just killed a CW in 2 crits- knockdown and IBS. Didn't even have to go for a second prone lol.
    Well it's a sub-optimal build and minimal gear, so should be some challenge there. :)

    I respeced into IV Destroyer and I'm just grinding the DR boons I need to get into IWD for the relic. Maybe I'll take him for a spin in Domination and see what happens.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • silverquicksilverquick Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Yup. GWFs were ridiculously OP before and are ridiculously OP now. Business as usual I guess. Way to fix the class.

    So it appears the NERFS to the other classes were a HUGE mistake on the part of Cryptic.

    Its time to get those reversed...

    They've made an obvious mistake.... its time to reverse that mistake that never could have happened if they weren't too busy nerfing the OTHER classes...

    It was obviously a short sighted "quick fix" with no real vision behind it that obviously didn't balance a thing and only made the situation worse...

    Once again... yet another Nerfing failure on Cryptics part... time to get that undone.

    Their constant Nerf cycle has been an absolute failure... and now they just CREATED a problem where there wasn't one before by those previous nerfs... its time to end this farce and go back and un-nerf the other classes.
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    no, no, no. first needs nerf the cw damage, after all, unlike destroyer, it does more damage than it should.

    then the other classes get buff for that not to happen as an absurd 8k gwf take 20,938,793 a sure strike against players from other classes.

    is cool as all act like a ***** no? the game is so enjoyable ...
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