. . . There's potions, artifacts, and companions now that give AP. My main CW gains AP like crazy with 3% action point gain, then add a potion and use my artifact. The AP reduction wasn't as nerf, it was a balance and got complimented by items and companions.
Its not the same Zeb.
You have to understand that prior to the Action Point Nerf, we were able to literally gain full AP in ONE rotation. So the CW Dailys literally became Encounter Powers.
BUT... its the DAILYs that are the AoE Control Powers.
The ACTUAL Encounter Powers in the CW are little more than AoE damagers with a slight, (ie.. 1 to 3 second) stun or prone. People like to talk big about Icy Terrain but that takes 6 ticks to build up enough stacks to even freeze anything, and then once it does... it shatters it instantly and all chill stacks are gone.
SO what you REALLY have with the CW is a bunch of AoE nukes with only a 1 second prone or 3 second stun on them.
We've got a HOST of SINGLE target control powers that work very well... for soloing... until you get into mass mob spam dungeons and IWD like you see now.
That would require us to be using Daily Powers as Encounter powers... aka... prior to the Action Point Nerf.
The CW just simply is not a controller and never really was. Its control through damage.
You're going to need a whole new class for what you really want.
EDIT: This class just simply is not built that way. You only have AoE Nukes you can build up to a Single AoE control power with.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
You have to understand that prior to the Action Point Nerf, we were able to literally gain full AP in ONE rotation. So the CW Dailys literally became Encounter Powers.
BUT... its the DAILYs that are the AoE Control Powers.
The ACTUAL Encounter Powers in the CW are little more than AoE damagers with a slight, (ie.. 1 to 3 second) stun or prone. People like to talk big about Icy Terrain but that takes 6 ticks to build up enough stacks to even freeze anything, and then once it does... it shatters it instantly and all chill stacks are gone.
SO what you REALLY have with the CW is a bunch of AoE nukes with only a 1 second prone or 3 second stun on them.
We've got a HOST of SINGLE target control powers that work very well... for soloing... until you get into mass mob spam dungeons and IWD like you see now.
That would require us to be using Daily Powers as Encounter powers... aka... prior to the Action Point Nerf.
The CW just simply is not a controller and never really was. Its control through damage.
You're going to need a whole new class for what you really want.
. . . I can still gain full AP in a rotation. All I need are my two sprites as active for 3%, chug my potion that gradually gives me AP for the hour duration, and then use my artifact IF I need, which I usually don't. I've been playing wizards and clerics since alpha. They are my main two classes and I like to think the two I play the best. Friends still are amazed at how many singularities and maelstroms I plop down so fast. I do disagree about CW's not being controllers. I crowd control quite well on my spellstorm mages. Not so much on my Master of Flames though.
. . . I can still gain full AP in a rotation. I've been playing wizards and clerics since alpha. They are my main two classes and I like to think the two I play the best.
It takes about two full rotations, using optimal SINGLE target control powers at a 34% Action Point gain.
And yes I've tried it.... its not fast enough.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
It takes about two full rotations, using optimal SINGLE target control powers at a 34% Action Point gain.
And yes I've tried it.... its not fast enough.
. . . Okay, I'll do some testing of my own on some single targets in normal gameplay and in IWD next time I have enough time to play. Old Zeb is definately built for crowds of mobs and can not only handle large groups but gains mad AP off them. I do quite well CCing IWD groups. I rarely fight mobs 1 on 1 on Old Zeb unless that's all that is left. Sometimes I even pull a nearby group just to enhance my AP gain probability.
. . . Okay, I'll do some testing of my own on some single targets in normal gameplay and in IWD next time I have enough time to play. Old Zeb is definately built for crowds of mobs and can not only handle large groups but gains mad AP off them. I do quite well CCing IWD groups. I rarely fight mobs 1 on 1 on Old Zeb unless that's all that is left. Sometimes I even pull a nearby group just to enhance my AP gain probability.
Well I don't and I've found you can control approximately 6 mobs using Single Target powers and Steal Time, Then once those mobs make it up to 8-10 Dailys dailys become manditory. 12 or more mobs... not happening, they'll crush you.
That's how bad the nerf actually was.
But then again, all the Action Point nerf really did was reveal the CW class for what it REALLY was, rather than what it was not. Because then people suddenly discovered you didn't have to combine about 20 million things to squeeze out one AoE control power.
Just slotting the AoE nukes for what they were, suddenly made the class and play go so much smoother and Mages suddenly came onto their true power.
That's what we have now.
People using the class for what it is... not combining 20 million things to make something out of nothing.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
You want to built enough AP to use a daily in a single rotation for single targets?
Dailies are not an encounter. I love the fact Zeb can use his like they are encounters but they are not. IMO if you are fighting single targets or using Single Target spells I think it is natural to expect you will not gain enough AP in a single rotation as they are not intended to be used every single encounter.
If you are getting a daily every two rotations using single target spells...
I'm not exactly seeing a problem. That's still far more often than other classes.
And Zeb does get his in one rotation if there are enough enemies. Which is acceptable. More enemies means more cause for a daily. You should expect faster AP with more enemies being hit.
You want to built enough AP to use a daily in a single rotation for single targets?
Dailies are not an encounter. I love the fact Zeb can use his like they are encounters but they are not. IMO if you are fighting single targets or using Single Target spells I think it is natural to expect you will not gain enough AP in a single rotation as they are not intended to be used every single encounter.
If you are getting a daily every two rotations using single target spells...
I'm not exactly seeing a problem. That's still far more often than other classes.
Errmm that's the point my friend,
The Single target control powers ARE the control powers... the AoEs are just nukes with a 1 second prone and 3 second Stun.
You can do two rotations with Single target powers and gain a Daily, you can do two Rotations with AoEs and gain a Daily... you cannot use either of the two to get a Daily in one rotation. Under certain circumstances an MoF if they have the right passive slotted, and a lot of things are being killed, could... but... that requires a lot of mobs dying quickly.
That doesn't happen with control powers.
EDIT: In a nutshell there's no AoE control powers in the CW outside Steal Time (3 second stun).... never has been. There's only AoE control powers in the Dailys.
That's why the Action Point Nerf revealed the CW to be a Nuker, not a Contoller, and why all these people playing it today are just doing a lot of damage.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited June 2014
. . . You do know that AP gain wasn't "nerfed" on Singe Targets, right? The AP balance only affected Entangling Force upon Multiple Mobs (Mastery). I'll still test out on single targets but I am positive it will be the same for me as it has been since alpha/beta/release, if not better considering companions, artifact, and potions.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
Well it sounds like you are trying to use pure control powers instead of a mix.
Zeb's old powers were Empowered Entangling Force, Sudden Storm, Steal Time and I am drawing a blank on the last. Most AoE control comes from the empowered slot. Use it. Love it.
On top of that all nerfs to AP gain were when regarding multiple controlled targets; not single.
Mix up the AoE control and the AoE damage to a happy medium rather than focusing on all control or all damage and you'll be fine. No you will not be able to just endlessly control groups of adds. And you shouldn't expect to.
Just like a healer, if you are soloing, build in some damage. Just because the Control Wizard has control in it's name doesn't mean it should be doing no damage and all control. It's actually always been best built as a hybrid. That's not because of any nerfs. It has been that way from the start.
Well it sounds like you are trying to use pure control powers instead of a mix.
Zeb's old powers were Empowered Entangling Force, Sudden Storm, Steal Time and I am drawing a blank on the last. Most AoE control comes from the empowered slot. Use it. Love it.
. . . Aye, my tested and true rotation is Entangling Force (mastery), Sudden Storm upon the ones that got sucked together, Steal Time, and the third I swapped between Shield and Ray of Enfeeblement. Now I swap between Ray and Chill Strike, the rest remain. My at wills are Magic Missile and Storm Pillar with my dailies being Arcane Singularity and Maelstrom of Chaos.
Mix up the AoE control and the AoE damage to a happy medium rather than focusing on all control or all damage and you'll be fine. No you will not be able to just endlessly control groups of adds, unless you're 'Old Zeb'. And you shouldn't, unless you're 'Old Zeb'.
Fixed that part for you.
(I kid though, I cannot "endlessly" control adds, never have been able to. However, I can control them and then kite just for a second or two to start my rotation again after the Daily pops.)
Well it sounds like you are trying to use pure control powers instead of a mix.
Yes, its making a pure control build... ie... what all these people THINK a CW can do...
Hence why they don't understand why we're doing so much damage.
Zeb's old powers were Empowered Entangling Force, Sudden Storm, Steal Time and I am drawing a blank on the last. Most AoE control comes from the empowered slot. Use it. Love it.
On top of that all nerfs to AP gain were when regarding multiple controlled targets. not single.
No is actually based on AP gain feats in the Oppressor path, that boost action point gain on Control powers.
Including the Shield pop, which is another one. Not simply the Mastery slot Entangling Force.
Stop assuming I'm a novice, I've been doing this for a year too.
Mix up the AoE control and the AoE damage to a happy medium rather than focusing on all control or all damage and you'll be fine. No you will not be able to just endlessly control groups of adds. And you shouldn't.
I didn't assume anything, you did.
That said... the reason you're seeing all these people say.. "ITS A CONTROLLER, IT SHOULDN'T BE DOING THAT MUCH DAMAGE". Which I know you've seen on these boards repeatedly as well. Is because they're under the assumption the CW is something that its not.
They are under the assumption its one of those AoE mez classes from other games that is capable of running control powers.
They do not understand that what the class REALLY is... is just an AoE nuker with a some single target control powers mixed in.
It was the Daily powers that are the AoE control powers... not the Encounters.
Hence why the Action Point Nerf revealed the CW to be a Nuker, not a controller. And why all these new people are just doing primarily AoE damage with the class. Its because you can't actually build a controller with the Feat Tree, you can only build a Damager, who can use a bunch of AoE Nukes to build UP to a Daily...
They seem to be under the impression its supposed to be a single target damager with AoE Control powers.... its actually the opposite. Its a Single Target controller with AoE Damage powers.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited June 2014
. . . Here's my build: (edit: attached images)I haven't respecced him in a long time. The only thing that would be missing are my bonus skill points from the 60+ progression.
Sorry I wasn't talking about your build I was talking bout where the Nerfs on Action Point gain hit.
. . . Still, the AP "nerf" only affected Entangling Force in the Mastery Slot as you don't gain AP off the extra mobs sucked in anymore. There was no single target nerf nor any feat nerf to my knowledge. I suppose I could have missed it, sadly I am fallable too, and since I never used Oppressor but I really made it a point to keep up with CW changes because well.. that's my main class.
No is actually based on AP gain feats in the Oppressor path, that boost action point gain on Control powers.
...
I didn't assume anything, you did.
There's an assumption for you. And again I play with Zeb quite a bit. He's in no way exaggerating how often he gets dailies up and controls adds like no tomorrow...
Really, all Zeb and I are saying is that if what you are doing isn't working you should look into how to improve rather than blaming the game because we both know it is entirely possible to build a lot of crowd control and damage and get no complaints.
Thing is you can not only build CC. We are telling you flat out that will not work.
. . . Still, the AP "nerf" only affected Entangling Force in the Mastery Slot as you don't gain AP off the extra mobs sucked in anymore. There was no single target nerf nor any feat nerf to my knowledge. I suppose I could have missed it, sadly I am fallable too, and since I never used Oppressor but I really made it a point to keep up with CW changes because well.. that's my main class.
It also affected Shield pop an a host of other powers that gave you AP when you'd use them like that, those are just the ones I remember right off the bat. I think Repel was too, but don't quote me on that.
But you're right it has been a long time, and the action point nerf was very thorough and included more than just Mastery Entangling Force.
EDIT: Either way we're all arguing over petty change here and getting bogged down in the overall picture.
The Action Point Nerf revealed the CW to be a Nuker, not a controller. Because those just never were in the Class. the AoE control powers were all Dailys. Not encounters. The Encounters were just a bunch of AoE nukes.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
It also affected Shield pop an a host of other powers that gave you AP when you'd use them like that, those are just the ones I remember right off the bat. I think Repel was too, but don't quote me on that.
But you're right it has been a long time, and the action point nerf was very thorough and included more than just Mastery Entangling Force.
. . . Ah yes, I do recall Shield now but that was only through coincidence since it hits less targets. Repel is unaffected, it remains the same as it has been. I cannot think of any other skill or feat that had the AP toned down besides Entangling Force. Shield and the Feats would be by-products, but only if you use either of those two skills, Shield and Entangle.
Thing is you can not only build CC. We are telling you flat out that will not work.
Bingo... that's the point I was making in the first place....
.....before we got bogged down in all this hair splitting.
The reality is, this class was never a Controller in the First place. It was just an AoE damager from the beginning. We were just able to hide that fact prior to the Action Point Gain Nerf. But now the CW has been revealed for what it truly is.
An AoE damager not a controller.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Bingo... that's the point I was making in the first place....
.....before we got bogged down in all this hair splitting.
The reality is, this class was never a Controller in the First place. It was just an AoE damager from the beginning. We were just able to hide that fact prior to the Action Point Gain Nerf. But now the CW has been revealed for what it truly is.
An AoE damager not a controller.
. . . Hmm, I still think its a matter of your playstyle and adapting to change and perhaps even specs and gear and stats. 'Old Zeb' is a control wizard, he controls the loonies out of things and he's not even on the oppressor path. What's your CW's wisdom? I'd love to see your build, as it may shed light on my confusion.
. . . While I may not be able to gain "mad" AP off single targets, I sure as heck can control them almost constantly.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
Shield pop was making the cap go down to five targets max like basically every other non-daily.
And, again, dailies are not supposed to be encounters. Shield pop allowed CW's to cast AS and Shield in a rotation.
It really can't be argued as balanced. It was fun but it wasn't balanced.
As clearly as I can say it, you should not expect be casting dailies as an encounter and you should not be trying to make every spell a CC spell. Control Wizards are designed around mixing between damage and CC.
If you can design a full DPS or full CC build that works, great, but the intention is that you have to mix the powers.
Shield pop was making the cap go down to five targets max like basically every other non-daily.
And, again, dailies are not supposed to be encounters. Shield pop allowed CW's to cast AS and Shield in a rotation.
It really can't be argued as balanced. It was fun but it wasn't balanced.
As clearly as I can say it, you should not be casting dailies as an encounter and you should not be trying to make every spell a CC spell. Control Wizards are designed around mixing between damage and CC. If you can design a full DPS or full CC build, great but the intention is that you have to mix the powers.
YES BINGO...
Hence why the Action Point Gain nerf revealed the CW to be an AoE nuker... not a controller. Because all the AoE control powers were always in the Dailys... not the Encounter powers.
So now you have people just using the class for what it is... an AoE nuker with some secondary controls in there.
And why you'd have to build an entirely new class if you really wanted a pure controller its not and never will be.
So all these people who've been running around thinking... "Oh the CW is a Controller not a Damager"... have been wrong the entire time. It can't be and never will be.
But don't worry, that was a hard pill to swallow for a lot of CWs too once this could no longer be hidden.
Evetually in time, everyone adjusted to what the class really was, rather than what they wished it could be. So now you see them playing the class as an actual AoE wizard..... But it appears the general public is still ignorant of this.
Control Wizard task is one only, CONTROL. You already have more than that...I would be happy about it instead of asking for more power.
What a Control Wizard needs is a fix in their CC abilities in PVP, that's all. A simple fix, nothing that would make you OP, just simple things which will buy you or your fellows TIME.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Arcane Singularity is fine as it is.
It is too powerful if you ask me right now.
Control Wizard task is one only, CONTROL. You already have more than that...I would be happy about it instead of asking for more power.
What a Control Wizard needs is a fix in their CC abilities in PVP, that's all. A simple fix, nothing that would make you OP, just simple things which will buy you or your fellows TIME.
IN PVP you should state.
Because in the PvE game the CW is no more about control than any other class.
BUT... in PvP... they can actually USE their single target control powers, unlike in PvE where they're getting swarmed by mobs they cannot control as they don't have the Encounter powers to do so with.... there they only have Dailys for controls as the Single Target control powers are negated by Mass Mobs.
So what you have is a state of... Actual Controller in PvP... Actual AoE damager/striker in PvE.
That's why people are so confused.
They don't understand it..... because they're so used to an AoE controller with Single target damage powers like other games. In this one its the complete opposite. Its a Single Target controller... and an AoE damager.
I really think they just need to rename this class. If they took the word Control out of the name, people would see the class much more clearly... if it was called... plain old Wizard.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
And why you'd have to build an entirely new class if you really wanted a pure controller its not and never will be.
What you are not listening to is that it is NOT designed to be a pure controller.
You are expected to mix damage and CC.
I'm not sure what you'e goal is here. You are complaining about "nerfs" to fix unintended effects.
Those are actually called bug fixes, BTW. The AP gain from those spells was absolutely not intended.
The class is designed to benefit having Damage AND CC. The class is not intended to be a pure controller.
That is an assumption by you but it still is a controller. Just as the cleric is still a healer even though they are also a damage dealer and/or de/buffer.
There is really nothing more to say. Disagreeing with it won't change the fact the class is, and will be for the foreseeable future, encourage a mixture of damage and cc.
What you are not listening to is that it is NOT designed to be a pure controller.
You are expected to mix damage and CC.
I'm not sure what you'e goal is here. You are complaining about "nerfs" to fix unintended effects.
Those are actually called bug fixes, BTW. The AP gain from those spells was absolutely not intended.
The class is designed to benefit having Damage AND CC. The class is not intended to be a pure controller.
Hmm not sure why you're confused or why you believe I ever thought that.... Did I say that? Nor was I complaining about the Action Point Nerfs. All they did was to reveal the CW to be what it ACTUALLY is... not what people wanted it to be.
If so I completely apologize for being misunderstood.
I was actually trying to state it is the OPPOSITE of a pure controller. And really not about Control and never has been..... its an AoE damager with only small control components added in..... and trying to make it something its not is the wrong way to go. Its time for everyone to let go of the previously held beliefs that the CW is a "Controller".
I actually completely agree with you.
The CW is an AoE damage class and has always been, the only exception in PvE was its Daily powers, and those can no longer be used like Encounter powers since the Action Point Nerf so they can no longer hide the fact its just not a controller.
It has no actual control powers outside some single target ones that get negated in PvE due to Mass Mobs. The only place its even a controller is in PvP because it can actually USE its single target control powers there.
But that's all the CW ever was, an AoE damager, not a controller, and it never will be.
Sorry for the confusion if there was any.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
But that's all the CW ever was, an AoE damager, not a controller, and it never will be.
. . . My control wizards disagree with you.
. . . I really don't understand why you don't think Control Wizards are not Controllers... I think perhaps you're confused as to what you can actually do as a Control Wizard. I control things left and right on my Spellstorm Mages. Not so much on my Masters of Flame though, but they still can do their fair share of controlling.
. . . I really don't understand why you don't think Control Wizards are not Controllers... I think perhaps you're confused as to what you can actually do as a Control Wizard. I control things left and right on my Spellstorm Mages. Not so much on my Masters of Flame though, but they still can do their fair share of controlling.
I can too Zeb,.... lots of control by AoE damage.... dead mob.. controlled mob....
Not much actual control though... not in the terms most people think of it.
And the Spellstorm and Master of Flame are not that different. The only difference is..... Sudden Storm vs Fanning the Flame, Scortching Burst vs Storm Pillar, and Furious Immolation vs Maelstrom of Chaos. That's the only difference between them outside of Lightning Passives vs Fire Passives and Eye of the Storm vs Swath of Destruction. They're a mirror image of each other outside of those Build/Power/Feat Wise.
The only difference between the two is how they do damage. One is a Burst Nuker, the other is a DoT nuker. They're the exact same other than that. Think of it like Lightning Strike Mage vs a Slow Burning Fire Mage. They're both just nukers at their core. Spellstorm does fast instant all in one shot kind of damage... the MoF does it over time. Both maintain Shards capability.
I suppose if the Devs really wanted to they could add a Third Paragon Path and call it ICE mage and then make THAT path the actual pure controller path with freezes and make their version of Sudden Storm a full on Freeze and their version of Storm Pillar a Freeze as well....
But currently neither the Spellstorm or Master of Flame are pure controllers, they're just not built that way. They're just nukers of different flavors.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
I can too Zeb,.... lots of control by AoE damage.... dead mob.. controlled mob....
Not much actual control though... not in the terms most people think of it.
And the Spellstorm and Master of Flame are not that different. The only difference is..... Sudden Storm vs Fanning the Flame, Scortching Burst vs Storm Pillar, and Furious Immolation vs Maelstrom of Chaos. That's the only difference between them outside of Lightning Passives vs Fire Passives and Eye of the Storm vs Swath of Destruction. They're a mirror image of each other outside of those Build/Power/Feat Wise.
The only difference between the two is how they do damage. One is a Burst Nuker, the other is a DoT nuker. They're the exact same other than that. Think of it like Lightning Strike Mage vs a Slow Burning Fire Mage. They're both just nukers at their core. Spellstorm does fast instant all in one shot kind of damage... the MoF does it over time. Both maintain Shards capability.
I suppose if the Devs really wanted to they could add a Third Paragon Path and call it ICE mage and then make THAT path the actual pure controller path with freezes and make their version of Sudden Storm a full on Freeze and their version of Storm Pillar a Freeze as well....
But currently neither the Spellstorm or Master of Flame are pure controllers, they're just not built that way. They're just nukers of different flavors.
Even if I agreed with your perspective on the Control Wizard not being a Controller, the Control Wizard in PnP isn't even a pure controller, it's also a damage dealer. So I really don't see the issue even if they weren't able to Control (which they are, I know because Old Zeb controls the HAMSTER out of things and I'm not talking about killing them as controller).
I can too Zeb,.... lots of control by AoE damage.... dead mob.. controlled mob....
Not much actual control though... not in the terms most people think of it.
And the Spellstorm and Master of Flame are not that different. The only difference is..... Sudden Storm vs Fanning the Flame, Scortching Burst vs Storm Pillar, and Furious Immolation vs Maelstrom of Chaos. That's the only difference between them outside of Lightning Passives vs Fire Passives and Eye of the Storm vs Swath of Destruction. They're a mirror image of each other outside of those Build/Power/Feat Wise.
The only difference between the two is how they do damage. One is a Burst Nuker, the other is a DoT nuker. They're the exact same other than that. Think of it like Lightning Strike Mage vs a Slow Burning Fire Mage. They're both just nukers at their core. Spellstorm does fast instant all in one shot kind of damage... the MoF does it over time. Both maintain Shards capability.
I suppose if the Devs really wanted to they could add a Third Paragon Path and call it ICE mage and then make THAT path the actual pure controller path with freezes and make their version of Sudden Storm a full on Freeze and their version of Storm Pillar a Freeze as well....
But currently neither the Spellstorm or Master of Flame are pure controllers, they're just not built that way. They're just nukers of different flavors.
I think what you forget here, is what exactly is defined as a control power.
A control power is a power that stops a single or group of enemies for any given time through dazes/stuns/pulls/pushes/prones. To that end, the CW has by far the greatest CONTROL powers amassed into their class. That is the driving goal of them.
Lets see...
Arcane Singularity-mass aoe daily capable of slow pull towards single spot
Oppressive Force-mass aoe daily capable of damage/mass stunning
Maelstrom of Chaos-mass "push" toward single spot
Ice Knife-Single target daily prone(used to be capable of 1 shotting in PvP past, still does great damage in PvE now)
Entangling Force-Single target choke/control of enemy. mini pull if mastery slotted
Ray of Frost/chill stacking-debuffing freeze. Capable of mass freeze if combo'ed with certain encounters
Repel-single target(group push if slotted in mastery)
Icy terrain-short stun on groups
Icy rays-UNDODGEABLE temporary stun through freezing
Steal Time-group stunning
Shard of the Endless Avalanche-Not only high damage dealer, but capable of proning enemies up to 2 times(shard runs them over/explodes)
The Control Wizard CONTROLS. And they have not only the greatest array of CONTROL powers, but they also have one of the best damage capabilities on top of all that.
If any other class had even HALF of what a control wizard has in useful control powers, they wouldn't be needed so much in dungeons, would they? The closest you really have right now is the HR and the GWF, but that's single target(which is only useful in PvP).
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
I think what you forget here, is what exactly is defined as a control power.
A control power is a power that stops a single or group of enemies for any given time through dazes/stuns/pulls/pushes/prones. To that end, the CW has by far the greatest CONTROL powers amassed into their class. That is the driving goal of them.
No We have SINGLE TARGET control powers and DAILY AoE control powers....
All it shows me is that you completely missed the point... but... go back and read all the things I said... with this in mind....
Directly according to what you quoted with my corrections added....
These are the ONLY AoE encounter Powers... with a Control Component.... Icy terrain-..... (takes 6 seconds to Freeze mobs, shatters instantly on damage)
Steal Time-group stunning (AoE damage, 3 second stun)
Shard of the Endless Avalanche- high damage dealer, capable of proning enemies.... for 1 second
All of these are DAILYs....... and ONLY USABLE once I build AP to GET them... Ergo... post Action Point Nerf I cannot use them repeatedly to control a dungeon anymore.... Arcane Singularity-mass aoe daily capable of slow pull towards single spot
Oppressive Force-mass aoe daily capable of damage/mass stunning
Maelstrom of Chaos-mass "push" toward single spot
Ice Knife-Single target daily prone(used to be capable of 1 shotting in PvP past, still does great damage in PvE now)
All of these are Single Target... and like shooting a single shot Musket at a crowd of 10-15 angry people trying to kill you in mass mobs.... but great for solo play. Entangling Force-Single target choke/control of enemy. mini pull if mastery slotted
Ray of Frost/chill stacking-debuffing freeze. NOT Capable of mass freeze as its only Single Target
Repel-single target(group push if slotted in mastery)
Chill Strike-UNDODGEABLE temporary stun through freezing
Icy Rays - Single target Root spell, possibly 2 targets
So at this point all you've told me.... is that I have a LOT of DAILYS that are GREAT AoE Control powers...
You've told me I have some GREAT SINGLE TARGET control Powers....
BUT ONLY.....
a whopping 2 AoE Encounters powers... one has a 3 second stun... one has a 1 second prone..... that have any control components on them.
So... apparently you think, I'm an AoE controller in Mass Mobs..... with a whopping 2 Encounter powers.... that have a 1 second Prone and 3 second Stun....
I think you need to go back and read exactly what I just told you.... and why we're not controllers. Because apparently you've missed the point entirely. Or even worse... think its FEASIBLE that were a Control Class with NO Actual AoE Encounter control powers.
You want to face me in PvP I'd be a **** good controller because I can use my single target control powers there.... OH WAIT... those were all nerfed in PvP weren't they?
In a dungeon?
Nope I'm just an AoE Nuker who has to build up to an actual AoE control power in my Dailys...
Comments
Its not the same Zeb.
You have to understand that prior to the Action Point Nerf, we were able to literally gain full AP in ONE rotation. So the CW Dailys literally became Encounter Powers.
BUT... its the DAILYs that are the AoE Control Powers.
The ACTUAL Encounter Powers in the CW are little more than AoE damagers with a slight, (ie.. 1 to 3 second) stun or prone. People like to talk big about Icy Terrain but that takes 6 ticks to build up enough stacks to even freeze anything, and then once it does... it shatters it instantly and all chill stacks are gone.
SO what you REALLY have with the CW is a bunch of AoE nukes with only a 1 second prone or 3 second stun on them.
We've got a HOST of SINGLE target control powers that work very well... for soloing... until you get into mass mob spam dungeons and IWD like you see now.
That would require us to be using Daily Powers as Encounter powers... aka... prior to the Action Point Nerf.
The CW just simply is not a controller and never really was. Its control through damage.
You're going to need a whole new class for what you really want.
EDIT: This class just simply is not built that way. You only have AoE Nukes you can build up to a Single AoE control power with.
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It takes about two full rotations, using optimal SINGLE target control powers at a 34% Action Point gain.
And yes I've tried it.... its not fast enough.
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Well I don't and I've found you can control approximately 6 mobs using Single Target powers and Steal Time, Then once those mobs make it up to 8-10 Dailys dailys become manditory. 12 or more mobs... not happening, they'll crush you.
That's how bad the nerf actually was.
But then again, all the Action Point nerf really did was reveal the CW class for what it REALLY was, rather than what it was not. Because then people suddenly discovered you didn't have to combine about 20 million things to squeeze out one AoE control power.
Just slotting the AoE nukes for what they were, suddenly made the class and play go so much smoother and Mages suddenly came onto their true power.
That's what we have now.
People using the class for what it is... not combining 20 million things to make something out of nothing.
Dailies are not an encounter. I love the fact Zeb can use his like they are encounters but they are not. IMO if you are fighting single targets or using Single Target spells I think it is natural to expect you will not gain enough AP in a single rotation as they are not intended to be used every single encounter.
If you are getting a daily every two rotations using single target spells...
I'm not exactly seeing a problem. That's still far more often than other classes.
And Zeb does get his in one rotation if there are enough enemies. Which is acceptable. More enemies means more cause for a daily. You should expect faster AP with more enemies being hit.
Errmm that's the point my friend,
The Single target control powers ARE the control powers... the AoEs are just nukes with a 1 second prone and 3 second Stun.
You can do two rotations with Single target powers and gain a Daily, you can do two Rotations with AoEs and gain a Daily... you cannot use either of the two to get a Daily in one rotation. Under certain circumstances an MoF if they have the right passive slotted, and a lot of things are being killed, could... but... that requires a lot of mobs dying quickly.
That doesn't happen with control powers.
EDIT: In a nutshell there's no AoE control powers in the CW outside Steal Time (3 second stun).... never has been. There's only AoE control powers in the Dailys.
That's why the Action Point Nerf revealed the CW to be a Nuker, not a Contoller, and why all these people playing it today are just doing a lot of damage.
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Zeb's old powers were Empowered Entangling Force, Sudden Storm, Steal Time and I am drawing a blank on the last. Most AoE control comes from the empowered slot. Use it. Love it.
On top of that all nerfs to AP gain were when regarding multiple controlled targets; not single.
Mix up the AoE control and the AoE damage to a happy medium rather than focusing on all control or all damage and you'll be fine. No you will not be able to just endlessly control groups of adds. And you shouldn't expect to.
Just like a healer, if you are soloing, build in some damage. Just because the Control Wizard has control in it's name doesn't mean it should be doing no damage and all control. It's actually always been best built as a hybrid. That's not because of any nerfs. It has been that way from the start.
Fixed that part for you.
(I kid though, I cannot "endlessly" control adds, never have been able to. However, I can control them and then kite just for a second or two to start my rotation again after the Daily pops.)
Here's my build: http://nwo.zebular.com/nwobuilds.htm - Do note, Veshlare has since been re-specced.
I do not have any Oppressor feats.
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Yes, its making a pure control build... ie... what all these people THINK a CW can do...
Hence why they don't understand why we're doing so much damage.
No is actually based on AP gain feats in the Oppressor path, that boost action point gain on Control powers.
Including the Shield pop, which is another one. Not simply the Mastery slot Entangling Force.
Stop assuming I'm a novice, I've been doing this for a year too.
I didn't assume anything, you did.
That said... the reason you're seeing all these people say.. "ITS A CONTROLLER, IT SHOULDN'T BE DOING THAT MUCH DAMAGE". Which I know you've seen on these boards repeatedly as well. Is because they're under the assumption the CW is something that its not.
They are under the assumption its one of those AoE mez classes from other games that is capable of running control powers.
They do not understand that what the class REALLY is... is just an AoE nuker with a some single target control powers mixed in.
It was the Daily powers that are the AoE control powers... not the Encounters.
Hence why the Action Point Nerf revealed the CW to be a Nuker, not a controller. And why all these new people are just doing primarily AoE damage with the class. Its because you can't actually build a controller with the Feat Tree, you can only build a Damager, who can use a bunch of AoE Nukes to build UP to a Daily...
They seem to be under the impression its supposed to be a single target damager with AoE Control powers.... its actually the opposite. Its a Single Target controller with AoE Damage powers.
I do not have any Oppressor feats.
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Sorry I wasn't talking about your build I was talking bout where the Nerfs on Action Point gain hit.
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There's an assumption for you. And again I play with Zeb quite a bit. He's in no way exaggerating how often he gets dailies up and controls adds like no tomorrow...
Really, all Zeb and I are saying is that if what you are doing isn't working you should look into how to improve rather than blaming the game because we both know it is entirely possible to build a lot of crowd control and damage and get no complaints.
Thing is you can not only build CC. We are telling you flat out that will not work.
It also affected Shield pop an a host of other powers that gave you AP when you'd use them like that, those are just the ones I remember right off the bat. I think Repel was too, but don't quote me on that.
But you're right it has been a long time, and the action point nerf was very thorough and included more than just Mastery Entangling Force.
EDIT: Either way we're all arguing over petty change here and getting bogged down in the overall picture.
The Action Point Nerf revealed the CW to be a Nuker, not a controller. Because those just never were in the Class. the AoE control powers were all Dailys. Not encounters. The Encounters were just a bunch of AoE nukes.
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Bingo... that's the point I was making in the first place....
.....before we got bogged down in all this hair splitting.
The reality is, this class was never a Controller in the First place. It was just an AoE damager from the beginning. We were just able to hide that fact prior to the Action Point Gain Nerf. But now the CW has been revealed for what it truly is.
An AoE damager not a controller.
. . . While I may not be able to gain "mad" AP off single targets, I sure as heck can control them almost constantly.
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And, again, dailies are not supposed to be encounters. Shield pop allowed CW's to cast AS and Shield in a rotation.
It really can't be argued as balanced. It was fun but it wasn't balanced.
As clearly as I can say it, you should not expect be casting dailies as an encounter and you should not be trying to make every spell a CC spell. Control Wizards are designed around mixing between damage and CC.
If you can design a full DPS or full CC build that works, great, but the intention is that you have to mix the powers.
YES BINGO...
Hence why the Action Point Gain nerf revealed the CW to be an AoE nuker... not a controller. Because all the AoE control powers were always in the Dailys... not the Encounter powers.
So now you have people just using the class for what it is... an AoE nuker with some secondary controls in there.
And why you'd have to build an entirely new class if you really wanted a pure controller its not and never will be.
So all these people who've been running around thinking... "Oh the CW is a Controller not a Damager"... have been wrong the entire time. It can't be and never will be.
But don't worry, that was a hard pill to swallow for a lot of CWs too once this could no longer be hidden.
Evetually in time, everyone adjusted to what the class really was, rather than what they wished it could be. So now you see them playing the class as an actual AoE wizard..... But it appears the general public is still ignorant of this.
It is too powerful if you ask me right now.
Control Wizard task is one only, CONTROL. You already have more than that...I would be happy about it instead of asking for more power.
What a Control Wizard needs is a fix in their CC abilities in PVP, that's all. A simple fix, nothing that would make you OP, just simple things which will buy you or your fellows TIME.
IN PVP you should state.
Because in the PvE game the CW is no more about control than any other class.
BUT... in PvP... they can actually USE their single target control powers, unlike in PvE where they're getting swarmed by mobs they cannot control as they don't have the Encounter powers to do so with.... there they only have Dailys for controls as the Single Target control powers are negated by Mass Mobs.
So what you have is a state of... Actual Controller in PvP... Actual AoE damager/striker in PvE.
That's why people are so confused.
They don't understand it..... because they're so used to an AoE controller with Single target damage powers like other games. In this one its the complete opposite. Its a Single Target controller... and an AoE damager.
I really think they just need to rename this class. If they took the word Control out of the name, people would see the class much more clearly... if it was called... plain old Wizard.
What you are not listening to is that it is NOT designed to be a pure controller.
You are expected to mix damage and CC.
I'm not sure what you'e goal is here. You are complaining about "nerfs" to fix unintended effects.
Those are actually called bug fixes, BTW. The AP gain from those spells was absolutely not intended.
The class is designed to benefit having Damage AND CC. The class is not intended to be a pure controller.
That is an assumption by you but it still is a controller. Just as the cleric is still a healer even though they are also a damage dealer and/or de/buffer.
There is really nothing more to say. Disagreeing with it won't change the fact the class is, and will be for the foreseeable future, encourage a mixture of damage and cc.
Hmm not sure why you're confused or why you believe I ever thought that.... Did I say that? Nor was I complaining about the Action Point Nerfs. All they did was to reveal the CW to be what it ACTUALLY is... not what people wanted it to be.
If so I completely apologize for being misunderstood.
I was actually trying to state it is the OPPOSITE of a pure controller. And really not about Control and never has been..... its an AoE damager with only small control components added in..... and trying to make it something its not is the wrong way to go. Its time for everyone to let go of the previously held beliefs that the CW is a "Controller".
I actually completely agree with you.
The CW is an AoE damage class and has always been, the only exception in PvE was its Daily powers, and those can no longer be used like Encounter powers since the Action Point Nerf so they can no longer hide the fact its just not a controller.
It has no actual control powers outside some single target ones that get negated in PvE due to Mass Mobs. The only place its even a controller is in PvP because it can actually USE its single target control powers there.
But that's all the CW ever was, an AoE damager, not a controller, and it never will be.
Sorry for the confusion if there was any.
. . . I really don't understand why you don't think Control Wizards are not Controllers... I think perhaps you're confused as to what you can actually do as a Control Wizard. I control things left and right on my Spellstorm Mages. Not so much on my Masters of Flame though, but they still can do their fair share of controlling.
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I can too Zeb,.... lots of control by AoE damage.... dead mob.. controlled mob....
Not much actual control though... not in the terms most people think of it.
And the Spellstorm and Master of Flame are not that different. The only difference is..... Sudden Storm vs Fanning the Flame, Scortching Burst vs Storm Pillar, and Furious Immolation vs Maelstrom of Chaos. That's the only difference between them outside of Lightning Passives vs Fire Passives and Eye of the Storm vs Swath of Destruction. They're a mirror image of each other outside of those Build/Power/Feat Wise.
The only difference between the two is how they do damage. One is a Burst Nuker, the other is a DoT nuker. They're the exact same other than that. Think of it like Lightning Strike Mage vs a Slow Burning Fire Mage. They're both just nukers at their core. Spellstorm does fast instant all in one shot kind of damage... the MoF does it over time. Both maintain Shards capability.
I suppose if the Devs really wanted to they could add a Third Paragon Path and call it ICE mage and then make THAT path the actual pure controller path with freezes and make their version of Sudden Storm a full on Freeze and their version of Storm Pillar a Freeze as well....
But currently neither the Spellstorm or Master of Flame are pure controllers, they're just not built that way. They're just nukers of different flavors.
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I think what you forget here, is what exactly is defined as a control power.
A control power is a power that stops a single or group of enemies for any given time through dazes/stuns/pulls/pushes/prones. To that end, the CW has by far the greatest CONTROL powers amassed into their class. That is the driving goal of them.
Lets see...
Arcane Singularity-mass aoe daily capable of slow pull towards single spot
Oppressive Force-mass aoe daily capable of damage/mass stunning
Maelstrom of Chaos-mass "push" toward single spot
Ice Knife-Single target daily prone(used to be capable of 1 shotting in PvP past, still does great damage in PvE now)
Entangling Force-Single target choke/control of enemy. mini pull if mastery slotted
Ray of Frost/chill stacking-debuffing freeze. Capable of mass freeze if combo'ed with certain encounters
Repel-single target(group push if slotted in mastery)
Icy terrain-short stun on groups
Icy rays-UNDODGEABLE temporary stun through freezing
Steal Time-group stunning
Shard of the Endless Avalanche-Not only high damage dealer, but capable of proning enemies up to 2 times(shard runs them over/explodes)
The Control Wizard CONTROLS. And they have not only the greatest array of CONTROL powers, but they also have one of the best damage capabilities on top of all that.
If any other class had even HALF of what a control wizard has in useful control powers, they wouldn't be needed so much in dungeons, would they? The closest you really have right now is the HR and the GWF, but that's single target(which is only useful in PvP).
No We have SINGLE TARGET control powers and DAILY AoE control powers....
All it shows me is that you completely missed the point... but... go back and read all the things I said... with this in mind....
Directly according to what you quoted with my corrections added....
These are the ONLY AoE encounter Powers... with a Control Component....
Icy terrain-..... (takes 6 seconds to Freeze mobs, shatters instantly on damage)
Steal Time-group stunning (AoE damage, 3 second stun)
Shard of the Endless Avalanche- high damage dealer, capable of proning enemies.... for 1 second
All of these are DAILYs....... and ONLY USABLE once I build AP to GET them... Ergo... post Action Point Nerf I cannot use them repeatedly to control a dungeon anymore....
Arcane Singularity-mass aoe daily capable of slow pull towards single spot
Oppressive Force-mass aoe daily capable of damage/mass stunning
Maelstrom of Chaos-mass "push" toward single spot
Ice Knife-Single target daily prone(used to be capable of 1 shotting in PvP past, still does great damage in PvE now)
All of these are Single Target... and like shooting a single shot Musket at a crowd of 10-15 angry people trying to kill you in mass mobs.... but great for solo play.
Entangling Force-Single target choke/control of enemy. mini pull if mastery slotted
Ray of Frost/chill stacking-debuffing freeze. NOT Capable of mass freeze as its only Single Target
Repel-single target(group push if slotted in mastery)
Chill Strike-UNDODGEABLE temporary stun through freezing
Icy Rays - Single target Root spell, possibly 2 targets
So at this point all you've told me.... is that I have a LOT of DAILYS that are GREAT AoE Control powers...
You've told me I have some GREAT SINGLE TARGET control Powers....
BUT ONLY.....
a whopping 2 AoE Encounters powers... one has a 3 second stun... one has a 1 second prone..... that have any control components on them.
So... apparently you think, I'm an AoE controller in Mass Mobs..... with a whopping 2 Encounter powers.... that have a 1 second Prone and 3 second Stun....
I think you need to go back and read exactly what I just told you.... and why we're not controllers. Because apparently you've missed the point entirely. Or even worse... think its FEASIBLE that were a Control Class with NO Actual AoE Encounter control powers.
You want to face me in PvP I'd be a **** good controller because I can use my single target control powers there.... OH WAIT... those were all nerfed in PvP weren't they?
In a dungeon?
Nope I'm just an AoE Nuker who has to build up to an actual AoE control power in my Dailys...