how can anyone say a CW doesnt control. Without a CW things run amock, unless you have a GWF soaking up the damage, (not a GF who mostly has to run around in circles making things annoying for the dpsers).
Theres only 2 decent aoe controls encounters though, shard is probably the best. steal time is close second (because of its charge up time). both are valuable to keeping threats disabled. Though if they did nerf the damage just having these two wouldn't be enough. freezing doesnt last long at all underfire so it doesnt really count. If they made it so it didnt break, give entangling force on mastery a root after it sucks enemies to the center, and you got yourself a nice controller.
Ofcourse, if this did happen you would just see 4 OR 5x GWF groups, because their ability to take damage is so absurdly that they don't need any control, my gwf destroyer easily tanked CN adds solo when the cws of the party went splat.
You cannot make changes to one class without making ones to others to balance things out. which is a major issue in this game.
silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2014
I think they just need to give up this control idea entirely Grimah,
They just didn't build the class as an AoE Controller, they built it as a Single Target controller and an AoE damager.
I mean we've got Shards and Steal Time, and honestly those aren't any different than the GWFs, they've got the same types of short term prones and stuns we do in mass mob situations.
The rest of our stuff is either Dailys or Single target and not usable to control a dungeon.
If you think about it, the standard setup for the Dungeon runs are usually Shards (for AoE damage), Sudden Storm (damage), Steal Time (3 second stun and AoE damage), then CoI for Debuff or Chill Strike on Tab for the AoE damage.
We're just not controllers, we weren't built for it. Single target controllers maybe.... but not AoE controllers, there we're all about the damage.
What YOURE missing, is that those 2 encounters, combined with excellent AP gain(you really don't know why multiple CWs are slotted, do you? they alternate their AP gain so that someone ALWAYS has a singularity up!) equates into not only a faster "burn all the mobs" mentality, but also a "we keep mobs in place longer than any other class" mentality.
GWFs cant do that, HRs cant do that, TRs cant do that, DCs cant do that. Even a half decent CW CAN do that. The only reason even GWFs are used in PvE is because their aoe dps is almost solely dependent on CWs pulling mobs to them to trash.
Also, I think you need to recalculate some of your math here. CWs can keep their targets stunned and proned for longer than youre advertising. Between stacking their cc, and timing it right, most mobs tend to be dead before they can even do anything. For a CW to not realize this astounds me.
I think the point youre missing is that the AoE encounters CWs slot are more than enough. Do you see a TR with Steal Time(both as much damage AND as much stun time)? NO. Do you see an HR sport an awesome encounter like Shard?(double prone, capable of more than 1 second each) No.
Do any of the other classes run Arcane Singularity, Oppressive Force, Maelstrom of Chaose? No.
And those few examples are why CWs are picked more than any other class in PvE(used to be the case in PvP as well).
Saying a CW doesn't have cc is like saying TR doesn't have stealth, GF doesn't have shield, GWF doesn't have unstoppable, HR cant switch stances, DC doesn't have divinity. CC is the very basis of your class, and to deny that means you either don't play a CW much, or are just looking to rage because youre not using your classes' fullest potential.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited June 2014
Imo, you just going in circles here, Silverquick classifying classes by their encounters and at wills (and thats what normaly is the most used and defining thing of a class) and by this definition CW, are more AoE nuke than control -> most encounters / atwills are single target controls or AoE damage + some control. And williep looking at what was made from CW and it is an AP singularity spam machine that can control lots of mobs.
Imo CW stacking for singularity is not intended and a by product of a balance issue ( the control nerf did made CW an AoE nuker)
and somewhat the same as perma-stealth TR ( just an example of class adapting).
And to the thread issue - if singularity will depend on some stat it will ruin any follow up timing. there is not a single reason that mobs should stay in the black sphere longer. The time they already there and immune can already mess-up followup's if not timed correctly, now if you suggest that every CW have a different timing, how people supposed to adjust to that and follow with their skills exactly at the right moment ??
And to the thread issue - if singularity will depend on some stat it will ruin any follow up timing. there is not a single reason that mobs should stay in the black sphere longer. The time they already there and immune can already mess-up followup's if not timed correctly, now if you suggest that every CW have a different timing, how people supposed to adjust to that and follow with their skills exactly at the right moment ??
Thanks for the input man... didn't even think about how different "control bonus" stats would change the timing.
Plus, not saying that theyre NOT aoe nukers... just theyre capable of more aoe control than some ppl think... that's why theyre the most wanted pve class. The combo of their control AND dps is what makes them op in pve.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Thanks for the input man... didn't even think about how different "control bonus" stats would change the timing.
Plus, not saying that theyre NOT aoe nukers... just theyre capable of more aoe control than some ppl think... that's why theyre the most wanted pve class. The combo of their control AND dps is what makes them op in pve.
No they're actually not.
They are not capable of controlling anything outside of single targets.
And to keep calling them that or believing that is a complete error. And that goes for the OP as well who for some reason believes that there even SHOULD be more AoE control.
This class was obviously not designed as an AoE control class... it was designed as an AoE Nuker. That is its group related ability. It was NEVER given any way of maintaining any kind of full on AoE control.
For group related play it should be classified as an AoE damager because those are the tools it was given with only slight CC components added which are no different than things like Front Line Surge the other classes have. Or any different than the Cleric AoE stuns and Repels.
In that way it is no different than any other class.
For solo play or PvP they'd have a point as it is loaded with Single Target Control Powers....
......but this class for grouping should not be considered a controller. It does not have that capability outside of Dailys and Single target powers.
It is time to let that old belief go and walk away from it.
They are not capable of controlling anything outside of single targets.
And to keep calling them that or believing that is a complete error. And that goes for the OP as well who for some reason believes that there even SHOULD be more AoE control.
This class was obviously not designed as an AoE control class... it was designed as an AoE Nuker. That is its group related ability. It was NEVER given any way of maintaining any kind of full on AoE control.
For group related play it should be classified as an AoE damager because those are the tools it was given with only slight CC components added which are no different than things like Front Line Surge the other classes have. Or any different than the Cleric AoE stuns and Repels.
In that way it is no different than any other class.
For solo play or PvP they'd have a point as it is loaded with Single Target Control Powers....
......but this class for grouping should not be considered a controller. It does not have that capability outside of Dailys and Single target powers.
It is time to let that old belief go and walk away from it.
Yes, they are.
They are capable of controlling mass mobs, on par with their single target controls.
And to keep calling them NOT control wizards is a complete error. The reason they should NOT have more AoE control, as others are also stating, is that they are ALREADY efficient at their control. THAT is why theyre requested, and THAT is why they rule PvE. It was designed a controller class. THAT is its group function. It was ALWAYS given ways to maintain/replenish/sustain its AoE control(ESPECIALLY in tandem with other CWs).
Your statement of it being classified as an "AoE damage with slight cc components" truly astounds any and every CONTROL wizard whos ever played the game. The problem youre obviously having is that you DO NOT see what the class is truly capable of. They EASILY have over twice the control powers of all the other classes, and as such their function + the fact that they have excellent aoe dps is EXACTLY WHAT THE PLAYERS WANT THEM FOR IN DUNGEONS. Also, what youre failing to understand is that moves like Frontline Surge have a 5 target cap... Something say, Shard does not. It prones ALL the mobs in its way/explosion radius.
For solo play, if not for tenacity, they have the greatest array of single target control. In group dungeons their effective aoe dps AND crowd control is why theyre so picked. The dungeons incorporate mass mobs/adds, and the class capable of controlling them is the class most effective at dealing with them.
When it comes to your denial of what is apparently obvious to experienced CWs and noobs alike, YOU need to let go of your fallacies and walk away before your outrageously false logic becomes even more false.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
They are capable of controlling mass mobs, on par with their single target controls.
Your statement of it being classified as an "AoE damage with slight cc components" truly astounds any and every CONTROL wizard whos ever played the game. The problem youre obviously having is that you DO NOT see what the class is truly capable of. .
No I fully see it...
What YOU do not see is that ALL the other classes have those short 1 - 3 second CCs in theirs too. Yeah Clerics too... and if you called them "Control Clerics" I'm sure you'd see some idiot running around trying to do it too. Stop falling for a name and look at reality...
Its NO different then theirs in this regard.
The CW has a whopping two AoE Encounter powers with control components... one has a 3 second stun with a 11 second recast. The other has a 1 second prone with a 12 second recast... those are NOT capable of controlling a dungeon with those any more than any other class.
I think what's happening here is that you are mistaking a MULTIPLE CW group for a Single CW who cannot do that. Or a CW/GWF/DC combination... where they COMBINE all of theirs to control a dungeon.
Those powers are not capable of doing so alone they never were built that way. Its time to walk away from that old belief that is a failure.
What YOU do not see is that ALL the other classes have those short 1 - 3 second CCs in theirs too. Yeah Clerics too... and if you called them "Control Clerics" I'm sure you'd see some idiot running around trying to do it too. Stop falling for a name and look at reality...
Its NO different then theirs in this regard.
The CW has a whopping two AoE Encounter powers with control components... one has a 3 second stun with a 11 second recast. The other has a 1 second prone with a 12 second recast... those are NOT capable of controlling a dungeon with those any more than any other class.
I think what's happening here is that you are mistaking a MULTIPLE CW group for a Single CW who cannot do that. Or a CW/GWF/DC combination... where they COMBINE all of theirs to control a dungeon.
Those powers are not capable of doing so alone they never were built that way. Its time to walk away from that old belief that is a failure.
You're really comparing a CW to Clerics with AOE CC?
First of all, the repel a cleric has isn't useful at all for killing mobs because it scatters them. Surely you understand this much.
But tell me, what other class but a CW can gather all the mobs in the room into one tiny location, stun them, and then prone them all.
No other class. Not even close. No other class can do any 1 of those things let alone all 3 in succession. Hell you can also add a slow to them all with icy terrain.
Try a couple of the other classes and you'll see what you can do to control bunches of mobs in any useful way. Basically nothing if you're not a CW.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
You're really comparing a CW to Clerics with AOE CC?
But tell me, what other class but a CW can gather all the mobs in the room into one tiny location, stun them, and then prone them all.
No other class. Not even close. No other class can do any 1 of those things let alone all 3 in succession. Hell you can also add a slow to them all with icy terrain.
That's a DAILY... FORGET IT EVEN EXISTS.. you can't use it repeatedly anymore since the Action Point Gain Nerf.
You can Prone them for one second... just like a GWF or GF with their Front Line Surge... And yes they've got AoE Slows too.
You can Stun them... for 3 seconds... Just like a Cleric's Sunburst or whatever its call. (Seems to me theirs lasts longer too).
You've been going on a name all this time... but that's all it ever was.
Don't even say the word "Control" anymore just call it "Wizard" and eventually your mind will adjust.
It is time to give up on that old view... it was inaccurate in the first place... let it go...
That's a DAILY... FORGET IT EVEN EXISTS.. you can't use it repeatedly anymore since the Action Point Gain Nerf.
You can Prone them for one second... just like a GWF or GF with their Front Line Surge... And yes they've got AoE Slows too.
You can Stun them... for 3 seconds... Just like a Cleric's Sunburst or whatever its call. (Seems to me theirs lasts longer too).
You've been going on a name all this time... but that's all it ever was.
Don't even say the word "Control" anymore just call it "Wizard" and eventually your mind will adjust.
It is time to give up on that old view... it was inaccurate in the first place... let it go...
Well, obviously groups should start running with 3 DCs for their control abilities. I can't believe nobody thought of that before. You sir are a genius and you've broken the code.
Seriously though you can't ignore Arcane Singularity. It's the most OP move for PVE in any MMO ever invented and CWs get AP fast.
With multiple CWs it's up most of the time.
You know what multiple GWFs can do without any CWs? Prone 2 or 3 and slow a few. Meanwhile 10 are running out of control.
CW has the most AOE control of any class in Neverwinter, and probably in any MMO every created.
Well, obviously groups should start running with 3 DCs for their control abilities. I can't believe nobody thought of that before. You sir are a genius and you've broken the code.
I know, right? Man, did I have the elitist mindset wrong? My bad, the best class for CN is actually HRs/GWFs... their aoe dps and obviously best cc makes HRs the only crowd control classes...
My bad
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Well, obviously groups should start running with 3 DCs for their control abilities. I can't believe nobody thought of that before. You sir are a genius and you've broken the code.
That won't work... WHY...
Because they don't have the ONE thing the Wizard was designed with.... as its ACTUAL primary ability....
AoE DAMAGE.... that is its REAL purpose....
They've got all the AoE controls... but they don't have the one thing that IS the primary of the Wizard Class...
(here's a hint... its not control)
Because they don't have the ONE thing the Wizard was designed with.... as its ACTUAL primary ability....
AoE DAMAGE.... that is its REAL purpose....
They've got all the AoE controls... but they don't have the one thing that IS the primary of the Wizard Class...
(here's a hint... its not control)
I don't think you've ever met a burst dps cleric then, have you? There are actual DC builds for dps. The reason theyre not picked over CWs, as are others? Crowd Control. A single CW groups up mass amount of mobs. And yes, dailies should be put into the equation, because even the average CW out there knows to build AP fast as lightning because theyre the best class for it(AP gain is part of recovery, remember? ). So its not really hard to belt out your dailies just about as fast as your encounters. That's called optimizing/maximizing your classes' potential.
The very fact that youre saying ANY OTHER CLASS HAS THE SAME AMOUNT OF CC AS THE CW is what youre being called out on. Last time I knew, 5 DC parties couldn't pile mobs and keep them in a confined spot. No other class can say that. But a CW can.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Almost every CW spell has a control component to it (minus paragon ones most notably). you can slot 4 aoe control spells, CoI on mastery which applies aoe freezing (biggest slow in the game along with steal time which is also a CW spell), icy terrain, then you ahve shard and steal time. + the two best control dailies (if gwf avalanche could activate on demand that would be a contender but it isn't designed that way.
The classes i do not have is DC and TR, so i know CW control is far superior than gwf/hr, though GF comes close because they have hard taunt/frontline, but they are a tank after all. Its just that CWs have crazy high damage, which replaces the need for GF (not to mention that GWFs can't die.)
I'd like to see how you would like it if we was really a aoe damage dealer, remove all our slows/stuns/prones/dazes/knockback. Anyways Im done with this discussion.
Basically CWs AOE control capability is so strong that it's basically broken the game, making other classes obsolete. And for you it's not enough.
You mean the CWs whopping 1 second prones and 3 second stun?
Wow... we just have a buttload of AoE control we can use as Encounter Powers don't we.
You're right I'm just high as hell...
EDIT: You know I think they should just remove Singularity from the game entirely... then when you suddenly and mysteriously learn that nothing changed with regards to mages or their capabilities, your vision of what the class really is will suddenly and mysteriously change.
You mean the CWs whopping 1 second prones and 3 second stun?
Wow... we just have a buttload of AoE control we can use as Encounter Powers don't we.
You're right I'm just high as hell...
No, hes replying to everything the CW has in their arsenal. They can do mass cc AND dps. Youre just too blind to see it.
So, once again:
Arcane Singularity-mass aoe daily capable of slow pull towards single spot
Oppressive Force-mass aoe daily capable of damage/mass stunning
Maelstrom of Chaos-mass "push" toward single spot
Ice Knife-Single target daily prone(used to be capable of 1 shotting in PvP past, still does great damage in PvE now)
Entangling Force-Single target choke/control of enemy. mini pull if mastery slotted
Chill Strike-Single target short stun/good aoe damager in mastery slot
Ray of Frost/chill stacking-debuffing freeze. Capable of mass freeze if combo'ed with certain encounters
Repel-single target(group push if slotted in mastery)
Icy terrain-short stun on groups
Icy rays-UNDODGEABLE temporary stun through freezing
Steal Time-group stunning
Shard of the Endless Avalanche-Not only high damage dealer, but capable of proning enemies up to 2 times(shard runs them over/explodes)
The fact that you can slot any 4 of the powers PLUS having a crowd control daily up nearly all the time, is what pushes the CW over the top. They don't just have a few cc powers... almost everyone of their powers has some sort of crowd/single control component.
It just astounds me how a CW can not see that you have CW powers...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
You mean the CWs whopping 1 second prones and 3 second stun?
Wow... we just have a buttload of AoE control we can use as Encounter Powers don't we.
You're right I'm just high as hell...
What other class has a "whopping" 1 second prone and 3 second stun without a target cap? Answer: None. So with just those two, CW is already on top.
Let alone 2 target-capless slows (icy terrain and COI).
Let alone THE MOST OP AOE CC ABILITY IN THE HISTORY OF MMOS Arcane Singularity. You cannot ignore this ability because it's usable at least once in every fight, and it's basically so powerful it's single-handedly broken the game.
^ To you, all of this is just as good as one AOE ability from a DC that SCATTERS mobs.
You are HIGH.
Even if you gave DC as much DPS as a CW it wouldn't matter because mobs would be everywhere. Their ONE CC-move (compared to your FIVE) is TOTALLY USELESS for killing mobs. It's only a defensive move.
What other class has a "whopping" 1 second prone and 3 second stun? Answer: None. So with just those two, CW is already on top.
Let alone those things WITHOUT TARGET CAPS?
Let alone 2 target-capless slows (icy terrain and COI).
Let alone THE MOST OP AOE CC ABILITY IN THE HISTORY OF MMOS Arcane Singularity.
^ To you, all of this is just as good as one AOE ability from a DC that SCATTERS mobs.
You are HIGH.
The difference between the CW and every other class is that they have SOME abilities that function like CWs cc... BUT the CW has almost EVERY ENCOUNTER/DAILY in their arsenal not only have control components, but great damage on top of that.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
What other class has a "whopping" 1 second prone and 3 second stun without a target cap? Answer: None. So with just those two, CW is already on top.
Let alone 2 target-capless slows (icy terrain and COI).
Actually that's incorrect, CoI is capped a 5 targets.
Icy Terrain is Stationary... ergo... once its down the only targets slowed are those that are in it and swarming you... so its a little too late at that point to be "slowing" anything. They're already on top of you beating on you.
Why would you ever think this is a "benefit" to a mage?
Let alone THE MOST OP AOE CC ABILITY IN THE HISTORY OF MMOS Arcane Singularity. You cannot ignore this ability because it's usable at least once in every fight, and it's basically so powerful it's single-handedly broken the game.
You are HIGH.
Fine... lets remove it from the game entirely... then your vision will FINALLY clear... and you'll be running around wondering WHY nothing ever changed.
I do not know why you believe this is ungodly... All it does is gather up mobs In one spot briefly... AND ITS A DAILY...
Mages do things the majority of the time WITHOUT IT.... YEAH ITS TRUE... because its a DAILY.
Lets remove it entirely... then... you will be left with little choice but to understand what the class REALLY is... and probably wondering why nothing ever changed.
I do not know why you believe this is ungodly... All it does is gather up mobs In one spot briefly...
I just don't even...
Other games require things like "tanks" and "off-tanks" to handle large groups of mobs. This is actually a good thing because it means people playing other classes are wanted.
An ability to gather 20 mobs in one place for easy-pickings for the whole team is absolutely unheard of in MMO history.
Fine... lets remove it from the game entirely... then your vision will FINALLY clear... and you'll be running around wondering WHY nothing ever changed.
CW would still be outright far and away the best AOE controller in the game. In that way nothing will have changed.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
No, hes replying to everything the CW has in their arsenal. They can do mass cc AND dps. Youre just too blind to see it.
So, once again:
Arcane Singularity-mass aoe daily capable of slow pull towards single spot
Oppressive Force-mass aoe daily capable of damage/mass stunning
Maelstrom of Chaos-mass "push" toward single spot
Ice Knife-Single target daily prone(used to be capable of 1 shotting in PvP past, still does great damage in PvE now)
Entangling Force-Single target choke/control of enemy. mini pull if mastery slotted
Chill Strike-Single target short stun/good aoe damager in mastery slot
Ray of Frost/chill stacking-debuffing freeze. Capable of mass freeze if combo'ed with certain encounters
Repel-single target(group push if slotted in mastery)
Icy terrain-short stun on groups
Icy rays-UNDODGEABLE temporary stun through freezing
Steal Time-group stunning
Shard of the Endless Avalanche-Not only high damage dealer, but capable of proning enemies up to 2 times(shard runs them over/explodes)
OK so once again we'll go through them again...
We have SINGLE TARGET control powers and DAILY AoE control powers....
Directly according to what you quoted with my corrections added....
These are the ONLY AoE encounter Powers... with a Control Component.... Icy terrain-..... (takes 6 seconds to Freeze mobs, shatters instantly on damage)
Steal Time-group stunning (AoE damage, 3 second stun)
Shard of the Endless Avalanche- high damage dealer, capable of proning enemies.... for 1 second
All of these are DAILYs....... and ONLY USABLE once I build AP to GET them... Ergo... post Action Point Nerf I cannot use them repeatedly to control a dungeon anymore.... Arcane Singularity-mass aoe daily capable of slow pull towards single spot
Oppressive Force-mass aoe daily capable of damage/mass stunning
Maelstrom of Chaos-mass "push" toward single spot
Ice Knife-Single target daily prone(used to be capable of 1 shotting in PvP past, still does great damage in PvE now)
All of these are Single Target... and like shooting a single shot Musket at a crowd of 10-15 angry people trying to kill you in mass mobs.... but great for solo play. Entangling Force-Single target choke/control of enemy. mini pull if mastery slotted
Ray of Frost/chill stacking-debuffing freeze. NOT Capable of mass freeze as its only Single Target
Repel-single target(group push if slotted in mastery)
Chill Strike-UNDODGEABLE temporary stun through freezing
Icy Rays - Single target Root spell, possibly 2 targets
So at this point all you've told me.... is that I have a LOT of DAILYS that are GREAT AoE Control powers...
You've told me I have some GREAT SINGLE TARGET control Powers....
BUT ONLY.....
a whopping 2 AoE Encounters powers... one has a 3 second stun... one has a 1 second prone..... that have any control components on them.
We have SINGLE TARGET control powers and DAILY AoE control powers....
Directly according to what you quoted with my corrections added....
These are the ONLY AoE encounter Powers... with a Control Component.... Icy terrain-..... (takes 6 seconds to Freeze mobs, shatters instantly on damage)
Steal Time-group stunning (AoE damage, 3 second stun)
Shard of the Endless Avalanche- high damage dealer, capable of proning enemies.... for 1 second
All of these are DAILYs....... and ONLY USABLE once I build AP to GET them... Ergo... post Action Point Nerf I cannot use them repeatedly to control a dungeon anymore.... Arcane Singularity-mass aoe daily capable of slow pull towards single spot
Oppressive Force-mass aoe daily capable of damage/mass stunning
Maelstrom of Chaos-mass "push" toward single spot
Ice Knife-Single target daily prone(used to be capable of 1 shotting in PvP past, still does great damage in PvE now)
All of these are Single Target... and like shooting a single shot Musket at a crowd of 10-15 angry people trying to kill you in mass mobs.... but great for solo play. Entangling Force-Single target choke/control of enemy. mini pull if mastery slotted
Ray of Frost/chill stacking-debuffing freeze. NOT Capable of mass freeze as its only Single Target
Repel-single target(group push if slotted in mastery)
Chill Strike-UNDODGEABLE temporary stun through freezing
Icy Rays - Single target Root spell, possibly 2 targets
So at this point all you've told me.... is that I have a LOT of DAILYS that are GREAT AoE Control powers...
You've told me I have some GREAT SINGLE TARGET control Powers....
BUT ONLY.....
a whopping 2 AoE Encounters powers... one has a 3 second stun... one has a 1 second prone..... that have any control components on them.
This is actually just running in circles at this point. You are not only incorrectly defining a class(repeatedly) but youre also pretending things don't do what they are doing.
All of the powers I explained are working in tandem with other powers... its called "rotation".
2)They have their dailies AND their encounters working towards a crowd control goal. Please read the definition of crowd control(that I had to provide to a supposed CONTROL WIZARD, I might add ), then look at each of your encounters...
Then look back at the definition, then your powers. See it yet? NEARLY EVERY CW POWER ENDS UP BEING DEFINED AS A CONTROL AND CROWD CONTROL POWER under the definition!
You are now trying to say that the very definition of crowd control is lying. That is why youre losing this discussion.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
This is actually just running in circles at this point. You are not only incorrectly defining a class(repeatedly) but youre also pretending things don't do what they are doing.
All of the powers I explained are working in tandem with other powers... its called "rotation". .
Yes... a rotation of Single target powers.... that are not used in dungeons because they're for Solo Play... they are SINGLE TARGET... designed to help mages get to a high enough level to be ABLE to group.
Once they are in a GROUP... they must use group related abilities.
IE.. those AoE Encounter powers which are NOT control powers at all. But rather AoE Nukes with only a slight control component on them. They are not and never have been controllers.
Their ONLY AoE control powers are DAILYS... those are not usable to repeatedly do anything. You can only build up to one with a bunch of AoE nukes to GET to the actual control power... it is not there by nature.
The class was not built as a Controller, it was built as an AoE damager with a few control components that... when combined with other classes CCs ARE capable of controlling a dungeon... BUT must be used in conjunction with other classes or other mages.
Its not built as a controller class and never was. Its just an AoE nuker with a few control components.
Other than that its got a lot of Single Target control powers for solo play.
Yes... a rotation of Single target powers.... that are not used in dungeons because they're for Solo Play... they are SINGLE TARGET... designed to help mages get to a high enough level to be ABLE to group.
Once they are in a GROUP... they must use group related abilities.
IE.. those AoE Encounter powers which are NOT control powers at all. But rather AoE Nukes with only a slight control component on them. They are not and never have been controllers.
Their ONLY AoE control powers are DAILYS... those are not usable to repeatedly do anything. You can only build up to one with a bunch of AoE nukes to GET to the actual control power... it is not there by nature.
The class was not built as a Controller, it was built as an AoE damager with a few control components that... when combined with other classes CCs ARE capable of controlling a dungeon... BUT must be used in conjunction with other classes or other mages.
Its not built as a controller class and never was. Its just an AoE nuker with a few control components.
Other than that its got a lot of Single Target control powers for solo play.
So let's compare what actually happens in groups and CC potential.
CW- Opens with Arcane singularity, gathers 20 mobs, stuns them, prones them, and then slows their escape. All combined this is a long duration of controlling every mob in the room exactly where you want them. Zero mobs uncontrolled.
A GWF/GF without a CW- Can prone and stun up to 5 random mobs. Cannot reposition them. 15 mobs run completely uncontrolled.
A DC (LOL) without a CW- Repels all the mobs, putting them in even worse positioning than before using the skill. 20 mobs uncontrolled.
No other class even has AOE CC to speak of (DC doesn't either but you seem to think they do for some insane reason).
Yes... a rotation of Single target powers.... that are not used in dungeons because they're for Solo Play... they are SINGLE TARGET... designed to help mages get to a high enough level to be ABLE to group.
Once they are in a GROUP... they must use group related abilities.
IE.. those AoE Encounter powers which are NOT control powers at all. But rather AoE Nukes with only a slight control component on them. They are not and never have been controllers.
Their ONLY AoE control powers are DAILYS... those are not usable to repeatedly do anything. You can only build up to one with a bunch of AoE nukes to GET to the actual control power... it is not there by nature.
The class was not built as a Controller, it was built as an AoE damager with a few control components that... when combined with other classes CCs ARE capable of controlling a dungeon... BUT must be used in conjunction with other classes or other mages.
Its not built as a controller class and never was. Its just an AoE nuker with a few control components.
Other than that its got a lot of Single Target control powers for solo play.
So let's compare what actually happens in groups and CC potential.
CW- Opens with Arcane singularity, gathers 20 mobs, stuns them, prones them, and then slows their escape. All combined this is a long duration of controlling every mob in the room exactly where you want them. Zero mobs uncontrolled.
A GWF/GF without a CW- Can prone and stun up to 5 random mobs. 15 mobs run completely uncontrolled.
A DC (LOL) without a CW- Repels all the mobs, putting them in even worse positioning than before using the skill. 20 mobs uncontrolled.
No other class even has AOE CC to speak of (DC doesn't either but you seem to think they do for some insane reason).
At this point I really kind of doubt you even play Neverwinter, let alone play a CW, let alone have played any other class ever in a group.
Yes... a rotation of Single target powers.... that are not used in dungeons because they're for Solo Play... they are SINGLE TARGET... designed to help mages get to a high enough level to be ABLE to group.
No... a rotation of CROWD CONTROL powers... they ARE used in dungeon delving, due to their ability for mass mob pulling/stunning/freezing/proning/dazing.
IE.. those AoE Encounter powers which are NOT control powers at all. But rather AoE Nukes with only a slight control component on them. They are not and never have been controllers.
They are CONTROL wizards. They always will be classified as controller, due to their control powers. Shoot, look at the white ranked wizard companion. Tell me what they classify him as? exactly...
Their ONLY AoE control powers are DAILYS... those are not usable to repeatedly do anything. You can only build up to one with a bunch of AoE nukes to GET to the actual control power... it is not there by nature..
Their most effective aoe control are dailies... but that's because they can go off by themselves(they are the coup de grace of the rotation, not a starting part of it). You build up to your daily through using your other powers(aoe control and otherwise) to build your AP to that point. Damage doesn't get you your dailies up... Its actually the abilities usage, in rotation, that leads you there(look at DC, their healing/buffing powers add AP, despite not doing damage. The difference is, CWs abilities ALSO deal damage in addition to control).
The class was not built as a Controller, it was built as an AoE damager with a few control components that... when combined with other classes CCs ARE capable of controlling a dungeon... BUT must be used in conjunction with other classes or other mages.
I had to actually laugh at this. Its actually the other way around. The other classes are used in conjunction with the CWs cc powers... THATS actually whats really happening. HRs rain of arrows don't work worth a jack w/o a stunned/proned/dazed/piled mob, now does it? And CWs are capable of that piling. The GWF cant swing away at a group if it wasn't pulled there first, can it? Because wizards do that.
Other than that its got a lot of Single Target control powers for solo play.
The thing you absolutely refuse to see, is that they have single target control for solo play, and crowd control for pulling/dazing/stunning/proning/piling mass mobs... No other class has this power. And THAT in addition to their aoe dps is why theyre picked for dungeons. You cant aoe nuke what isn't in your aoe, and they are THE SINGLE GREATEST CLASS CAPABLE OF DOING JUST THAT... crowd controlling mobs so aoe dps(themselves included) can nuke the enemy. You cant nuke an enemy if theyre not on the field, and CONTROL wizards do just that... they pull/freeze/prone/stun/daze the enemy onto the field of their choosing.
EDIT: actually look under the companion collection, and mouse over every "controller" pet there. EVERY one of them has a cc ability, ie, slowing/dazing/stunning/possessing AT LEAST a single enemy. And the companions basically have dumbed down abilities of appropriate player classes(leader=dc, striker=gwf/hr/tr, controller=cw, defender=gf).
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Comments
Theres only 2 decent aoe controls encounters though, shard is probably the best. steal time is close second (because of its charge up time). both are valuable to keeping threats disabled. Though if they did nerf the damage just having these two wouldn't be enough. freezing doesnt last long at all underfire so it doesnt really count. If they made it so it didnt break, give entangling force on mastery a root after it sucks enemies to the center, and you got yourself a nice controller.
Ofcourse, if this did happen you would just see 4 OR 5x GWF groups, because their ability to take damage is so absurdly that they don't need any control, my gwf destroyer easily tanked CN adds solo when the cws of the party went splat.
You cannot make changes to one class without making ones to others to balance things out. which is a major issue in this game.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
They just didn't build the class as an AoE Controller, they built it as a Single Target controller and an AoE damager.
I mean we've got Shards and Steal Time, and honestly those aren't any different than the GWFs, they've got the same types of short term prones and stuns we do in mass mob situations.
The rest of our stuff is either Dailys or Single target and not usable to control a dungeon.
If you think about it, the standard setup for the Dungeon runs are usually Shards (for AoE damage), Sudden Storm (damage), Steal Time (3 second stun and AoE damage), then CoI for Debuff or Chill Strike on Tab for the AoE damage.
We're just not controllers, we weren't built for it. Single target controllers maybe.... but not AoE controllers, there we're all about the damage.
Thats where i disagree, I don't think they should. I'm sure they could change things if they really wanted to.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
What YOURE missing, is that those 2 encounters, combined with excellent AP gain(you really don't know why multiple CWs are slotted, do you? they alternate their AP gain so that someone ALWAYS has a singularity up!) equates into not only a faster "burn all the mobs" mentality, but also a "we keep mobs in place longer than any other class" mentality.
GWFs cant do that, HRs cant do that, TRs cant do that, DCs cant do that. Even a half decent CW CAN do that. The only reason even GWFs are used in PvE is because their aoe dps is almost solely dependent on CWs pulling mobs to them to trash.
Also, I think you need to recalculate some of your math here. CWs can keep their targets stunned and proned for longer than youre advertising. Between stacking their cc, and timing it right, most mobs tend to be dead before they can even do anything. For a CW to not realize this astounds me.
I think the point youre missing is that the AoE encounters CWs slot are more than enough. Do you see a TR with Steal Time(both as much damage AND as much stun time)? NO. Do you see an HR sport an awesome encounter like Shard?(double prone, capable of more than 1 second each) No.
Do any of the other classes run Arcane Singularity, Oppressive Force, Maelstrom of Chaose? No.
And those few examples are why CWs are picked more than any other class in PvE(used to be the case in PvP as well).
Saying a CW doesn't have cc is like saying TR doesn't have stealth, GF doesn't have shield, GWF doesn't have unstoppable, HR cant switch stances, DC doesn't have divinity. CC is the very basis of your class, and to deny that means you either don't play a CW much, or are just looking to rage because youre not using your classes' fullest potential.
Imo CW stacking for singularity is not intended and a by product of a balance issue ( the control nerf did made CW an AoE nuker)
and somewhat the same as perma-stealth TR ( just an example of class adapting).
And to the thread issue - if singularity will depend on some stat it will ruin any follow up timing. there is not a single reason that mobs should stay in the black sphere longer. The time they already there and immune can already mess-up followup's if not timed correctly, now if you suggest that every CW have a different timing, how people supposed to adjust to that and follow with their skills exactly at the right moment ??
Thanks for the input man... didn't even think about how different "control bonus" stats would change the timing.
Plus, not saying that theyre NOT aoe nukers... just theyre capable of more aoe control than some ppl think... that's why theyre the most wanted pve class. The combo of their control AND dps is what makes them op in pve.
No they're actually not.
They are not capable of controlling anything outside of single targets.
And to keep calling them that or believing that is a complete error. And that goes for the OP as well who for some reason believes that there even SHOULD be more AoE control.
This class was obviously not designed as an AoE control class... it was designed as an AoE Nuker. That is its group related ability. It was NEVER given any way of maintaining any kind of full on AoE control.
For group related play it should be classified as an AoE damager because those are the tools it was given with only slight CC components added which are no different than things like Front Line Surge the other classes have. Or any different than the Cleric AoE stuns and Repels.
In that way it is no different than any other class.
For solo play or PvP they'd have a point as it is loaded with Single Target Control Powers....
......but this class for grouping should not be considered a controller. It does not have that capability outside of Dailys and Single target powers.
It is time to let that old belief go and walk away from it.
Yes, they are.
They are capable of controlling mass mobs, on par with their single target controls.
And to keep calling them NOT control wizards is a complete error. The reason they should NOT have more AoE control, as others are also stating, is that they are ALREADY efficient at their control. THAT is why theyre requested, and THAT is why they rule PvE. It was designed a controller class. THAT is its group function. It was ALWAYS given ways to maintain/replenish/sustain its AoE control(ESPECIALLY in tandem with other CWs).
Your statement of it being classified as an "AoE damage with slight cc components" truly astounds any and every CONTROL wizard whos ever played the game. The problem youre obviously having is that you DO NOT see what the class is truly capable of. They EASILY have over twice the control powers of all the other classes, and as such their function + the fact that they have excellent aoe dps is EXACTLY WHAT THE PLAYERS WANT THEM FOR IN DUNGEONS. Also, what youre failing to understand is that moves like Frontline Surge have a 5 target cap... Something say, Shard does not. It prones ALL the mobs in its way/explosion radius.
For solo play, if not for tenacity, they have the greatest array of single target control. In group dungeons their effective aoe dps AND crowd control is why theyre so picked. The dungeons incorporate mass mobs/adds, and the class capable of controlling them is the class most effective at dealing with them.
When it comes to your denial of what is apparently obvious to experienced CWs and noobs alike, YOU need to let go of your fallacies and walk away before your outrageously false logic becomes even more false.
No I fully see it...
What YOU do not see is that ALL the other classes have those short 1 - 3 second CCs in theirs too. Yeah Clerics too... and if you called them "Control Clerics" I'm sure you'd see some idiot running around trying to do it too. Stop falling for a name and look at reality...
Its NO different then theirs in this regard.
The CW has a whopping two AoE Encounter powers with control components... one has a 3 second stun with a 11 second recast. The other has a 1 second prone with a 12 second recast... those are NOT capable of controlling a dungeon with those any more than any other class.
I think what's happening here is that you are mistaking a MULTIPLE CW group for a Single CW who cannot do that. Or a CW/GWF/DC combination... where they COMBINE all of theirs to control a dungeon.
Those powers are not capable of doing so alone they never were built that way. Its time to walk away from that old belief that is a failure.
You're really comparing a CW to Clerics with AOE CC?
First of all, the repel a cleric has isn't useful at all for killing mobs because it scatters them. Surely you understand this much.
But tell me, what other class but a CW can gather all the mobs in the room into one tiny location, stun them, and then prone them all.
No other class. Not even close. No other class can do any 1 of those things let alone all 3 in succession. Hell you can also add a slow to them all with icy terrain.
Try a couple of the other classes and you'll see what you can do to control bunches of mobs in any useful way. Basically nothing if you're not a CW.
That's a DAILY... FORGET IT EVEN EXISTS.. you can't use it repeatedly anymore since the Action Point Gain Nerf.
You can Prone them for one second... just like a GWF or GF with their Front Line Surge... And yes they've got AoE Slows too.
You can Stun them... for 3 seconds... Just like a Cleric's Sunburst or whatever its call. (Seems to me theirs lasts longer too).
You've been going on a name all this time... but that's all it ever was.
Don't even say the word "Control" anymore just call it "Wizard" and eventually your mind will adjust.
It is time to give up on that old view... it was inaccurate in the first place... let it go...
Well, obviously groups should start running with 3 DCs for their control abilities. I can't believe nobody thought of that before. You sir are a genius and you've broken the code.
Seriously though you can't ignore Arcane Singularity. It's the most OP move for PVE in any MMO ever invented and CWs get AP fast.
With multiple CWs it's up most of the time.
You know what multiple GWFs can do without any CWs? Prone 2 or 3 and slow a few. Meanwhile 10 are running out of control.
CW has the most AOE control of any class in Neverwinter, and probably in any MMO every created.
I know, right? Man, did I have the elitist mindset wrong? My bad, the best class for CN is actually HRs/GWFs... their aoe dps and obviously best cc makes HRs the only crowd control classes...
My bad
That won't work... WHY...
Because they don't have the ONE thing the Wizard was designed with.... as its ACTUAL primary ability....
AoE DAMAGE.... that is its REAL purpose....
They've got all the AoE controls... but they don't have the one thing that IS the primary of the Wizard Class...
(here's a hint... its not control)
DCs have all the controls huh?
Man you are high as hell.
Basically CWs AOE control capability is so strong that it's basically broken the game, making other classes obsolete. And for you it's not enough.
I don't think you've ever met a burst dps cleric then, have you? There are actual DC builds for dps. The reason theyre not picked over CWs, as are others? Crowd Control. A single CW groups up mass amount of mobs. And yes, dailies should be put into the equation, because even the average CW out there knows to build AP fast as lightning because theyre the best class for it(AP gain is part of recovery, remember?
The very fact that youre saying ANY OTHER CLASS HAS THE SAME AMOUNT OF CC AS THE CW is what youre being called out on. Last time I knew, 5 DC parties couldn't pile mobs and keep them in a confined spot. No other class can say that. But a CW can.
The classes i do not have is DC and TR, so i know CW control is far superior than gwf/hr, though GF comes close because they have hard taunt/frontline, but they are a tank after all. Its just that CWs have crazy high damage, which replaces the need for GF (not to mention that GWFs can't die.)
I'd like to see how you would like it if we was really a aoe damage dealer, remove all our slows/stuns/prones/dazes/knockback. Anyways Im done with this discussion.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
You mean the CWs whopping 1 second prones and 3 second stun?
Wow... we just have a buttload of AoE control we can use as Encounter Powers don't we.
You're right I'm just high as hell...
EDIT: You know I think they should just remove Singularity from the game entirely... then when you suddenly and mysteriously learn that nothing changed with regards to mages or their capabilities, your vision of what the class really is will suddenly and mysteriously change.
No, hes replying to everything the CW has in their arsenal. They can do mass cc AND dps. Youre just too blind to see it.
So, once again:
Arcane Singularity-mass aoe daily capable of slow pull towards single spot
Oppressive Force-mass aoe daily capable of damage/mass stunning
Maelstrom of Chaos-mass "push" toward single spot
Ice Knife-Single target daily prone(used to be capable of 1 shotting in PvP past, still does great damage in PvE now)
Entangling Force-Single target choke/control of enemy. mini pull if mastery slotted
Chill Strike-Single target short stun/good aoe damager in mastery slot
Ray of Frost/chill stacking-debuffing freeze. Capable of mass freeze if combo'ed with certain encounters
Repel-single target(group push if slotted in mastery)
Icy terrain-short stun on groups
Icy rays-UNDODGEABLE temporary stun through freezing
Steal Time-group stunning
Shard of the Endless Avalanche-Not only high damage dealer, but capable of proning enemies up to 2 times(shard runs them over/explodes)
The fact that you can slot any 4 of the powers PLUS having a crowd control daily up nearly all the time, is what pushes the CW over the top. They don't just have a few cc powers... almost everyone of their powers has some sort of crowd/single control component.
It just astounds me how a CW can not see that you have CW powers...
P.S. heres something to help those understand what this guy's saying CWs do not have
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_control_(video_gaming)
What other class has a "whopping" 1 second prone and 3 second stun without a target cap? Answer: None. So with just those two, CW is already on top.
Let alone 2 target-capless slows (icy terrain and COI).
Let alone THE MOST OP AOE CC ABILITY IN THE HISTORY OF MMOS Arcane Singularity. You cannot ignore this ability because it's usable at least once in every fight, and it's basically so powerful it's single-handedly broken the game.
^ To you, all of this is just as good as one AOE ability from a DC that SCATTERS mobs.
You are HIGH.
Even if you gave DC as much DPS as a CW it wouldn't matter because mobs would be everywhere. Their ONE CC-move (compared to your FIVE) is TOTALLY USELESS for killing mobs. It's only a defensive move.
The difference between the CW and every other class is that they have SOME abilities that function like CWs cc... BUT the CW has almost EVERY ENCOUNTER/DAILY in their arsenal not only have control components, but great damage on top of that.
Actually that's incorrect, CoI is capped a 5 targets.
Icy Terrain is Stationary... ergo... once its down the only targets slowed are those that are in it and swarming you... so its a little too late at that point to be "slowing" anything. They're already on top of you beating on you.
Why would you ever think this is a "benefit" to a mage?
Fine... lets remove it from the game entirely... then your vision will FINALLY clear... and you'll be running around wondering WHY nothing ever changed.
I do not know why you believe this is ungodly... All it does is gather up mobs In one spot briefly... AND ITS A DAILY...
Mages do things the majority of the time WITHOUT IT.... YEAH ITS TRUE... because its a DAILY.
Lets remove it entirely... then... you will be left with little choice but to understand what the class REALLY is... and probably wondering why nothing ever changed.
(hint.. its not a controller)
I just don't even...
Other games require things like "tanks" and "off-tanks" to handle large groups of mobs. This is actually a good thing because it means people playing other classes are wanted.
An ability to gather 20 mobs in one place for easy-pickings for the whole team is absolutely unheard of in MMO history.
CW would still be outright far and away the best AOE controller in the game. In that way nothing will have changed.
OK so once again we'll go through them again...
We have SINGLE TARGET control powers and DAILY AoE control powers....
Directly according to what you quoted with my corrections added....
These are the ONLY AoE encounter Powers... with a Control Component....
Icy terrain-..... (takes 6 seconds to Freeze mobs, shatters instantly on damage)
Steal Time-group stunning (AoE damage, 3 second stun)
Shard of the Endless Avalanche- high damage dealer, capable of proning enemies.... for 1 second
All of these are DAILYs....... and ONLY USABLE once I build AP to GET them... Ergo... post Action Point Nerf I cannot use them repeatedly to control a dungeon anymore....
Arcane Singularity-mass aoe daily capable of slow pull towards single spot
Oppressive Force-mass aoe daily capable of damage/mass stunning
Maelstrom of Chaos-mass "push" toward single spot
Ice Knife-Single target daily prone(used to be capable of 1 shotting in PvP past, still does great damage in PvE now)
All of these are Single Target... and like shooting a single shot Musket at a crowd of 10-15 angry people trying to kill you in mass mobs.... but great for solo play.
Entangling Force-Single target choke/control of enemy. mini pull if mastery slotted
Ray of Frost/chill stacking-debuffing freeze. NOT Capable of mass freeze as its only Single Target
Repel-single target(group push if slotted in mastery)
Chill Strike-UNDODGEABLE temporary stun through freezing
Icy Rays - Single target Root spell, possibly 2 targets
So at this point all you've told me.... is that I have a LOT of DAILYS that are GREAT AoE Control powers...
You've told me I have some GREAT SINGLE TARGET control Powers....
BUT ONLY.....
a whopping 2 AoE Encounters powers... one has a 3 second stun... one has a 1 second prone..... that have any control components on them.
This is actually just running in circles at this point. You are not only incorrectly defining a class(repeatedly) but youre also pretending things don't do what they are doing.
All of the powers I explained are working in tandem with other powers... its called "rotation".
1)for the final time, ALL but a few of the CW powers have a form single and/or aoe control component to it. Once again, seeing as you don't read the dictionary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_control_(video_gaming)
2)They have their dailies AND their encounters working towards a crowd control goal. Please read the definition of crowd control(that I had to provide to a supposed CONTROL WIZARD, I might add
Then look back at the definition, then your powers. See it yet? NEARLY EVERY CW POWER ENDS UP BEING DEFINED AS A CONTROL AND CROWD CONTROL POWER under the definition!
You are now trying to say that the very definition of crowd control is lying. That is why youre losing this discussion.
Yes... a rotation of Single target powers.... that are not used in dungeons because they're for Solo Play... they are SINGLE TARGET... designed to help mages get to a high enough level to be ABLE to group.
Once they are in a GROUP... they must use group related abilities.
IE.. those AoE Encounter powers which are NOT control powers at all. But rather AoE Nukes with only a slight control component on them. They are not and never have been controllers.
Their ONLY AoE control powers are DAILYS... those are not usable to repeatedly do anything. You can only build up to one with a bunch of AoE nukes to GET to the actual control power... it is not there by nature.
The class was not built as a Controller, it was built as an AoE damager with a few control components that... when combined with other classes CCs ARE capable of controlling a dungeon... BUT must be used in conjunction with other classes or other mages.
Its not built as a controller class and never was. Its just an AoE nuker with a few control components.
Other than that its got a lot of Single Target control powers for solo play.
So let's compare what actually happens in groups and CC potential.
CW- Opens with Arcane singularity, gathers 20 mobs, stuns them, prones them, and then slows their escape. All combined this is a long duration of controlling every mob in the room exactly where you want them. Zero mobs uncontrolled.
A GWF/GF without a CW- Can prone and stun up to 5 random mobs. Cannot reposition them. 15 mobs run completely uncontrolled.
A DC (LOL) without a CW- Repels all the mobs, putting them in even worse positioning than before using the skill. 20 mobs uncontrolled.
No other class even has AOE CC to speak of (DC doesn't either but you seem to think they do for some insane reason).
So let's compare what actually happens in groups and CC potential.
CW- Opens with Arcane singularity, gathers 20 mobs, stuns them, prones them, and then slows their escape. All combined this is a long duration of controlling every mob in the room exactly where you want them. Zero mobs uncontrolled.
A GWF/GF without a CW- Can prone and stun up to 5 random mobs. 15 mobs run completely uncontrolled.
A DC (LOL) without a CW- Repels all the mobs, putting them in even worse positioning than before using the skill. 20 mobs uncontrolled.
No other class even has AOE CC to speak of (DC doesn't either but you seem to think they do for some insane reason).
At this point I really kind of doubt you even play Neverwinter, let alone play a CW, let alone have played any other class ever in a group.
No... a rotation of CROWD CONTROL powers... they ARE used in dungeon delving, due to their ability for mass mob pulling/stunning/freezing/proning/dazing.
They are CONTROL wizards. They always will be classified as controller, due to their control powers. Shoot, look at the white ranked wizard companion. Tell me what they classify him as? exactly...
Their most effective aoe control are dailies... but that's because they can go off by themselves(they are the coup de grace of the rotation, not a starting part of it). You build up to your daily through using your other powers(aoe control and otherwise) to build your AP to that point. Damage doesn't get you your dailies up... Its actually the abilities usage, in rotation, that leads you there(look at DC, their healing/buffing powers add AP, despite not doing damage. The difference is, CWs abilities ALSO deal damage in addition to control).
I had to actually laugh at this. Its actually the other way around. The other classes are used in conjunction with the CWs cc powers... THATS actually whats really happening. HRs rain of arrows don't work worth a jack w/o a stunned/proned/dazed/piled mob, now does it? And CWs are capable of that piling. The GWF cant swing away at a group if it wasn't pulled there first, can it? Because wizards do that.
Its the other way around. Its built as a controller class and always was. Its just an aoe controller with dps components in its control components.
The thing you absolutely refuse to see, is that they have single target control for solo play, and crowd control for pulling/dazing/stunning/proning/piling mass mobs... No other class has this power. And THAT in addition to their aoe dps is why theyre picked for dungeons. You cant aoe nuke what isn't in your aoe, and they are THE SINGLE GREATEST CLASS CAPABLE OF DOING JUST THAT... crowd controlling mobs so aoe dps(themselves included) can nuke the enemy. You cant nuke an enemy if theyre not on the field, and CONTROL wizards do just that... they pull/freeze/prone/stun/daze the enemy onto the field of their choosing.
EDIT: actually look under the companion collection, and mouse over every "controller" pet there. EVERY one of them has a cc ability, ie, slowing/dazing/stunning/possessing AT LEAST a single enemy. And the companions basically have dumbed down abilities of appropriate player classes(leader=dc, striker=gwf/hr/tr, controller=cw, defender=gf).