i think we need a real matchmaking system for pve and pvp. for pvp, it could match us based on roles and strengths and try to balance teams that way. for pve, it can allow people to join dungeons regardless of class if their role is desired by the group.
should help immensely for pvp since some matches r simply decided by class composition
Also as long as they have daily's for doing pvp (which net you 8k AD per day per toon PVE players who don't like pvping will do it ANYWAY just to get the AD. Now while this will never change I do believe that changing the rewards for losing a match will help those people try harder for they know that they will get what they put in.
snipdidly snip....
Ok let me put this simply for you, I have played pvp extensively at times, when you have multi OP chracters within certain parties, (yes I'm talking about gwf/gf/tr or even multi hr combined with the previous) that constantly disable or are immune or perm invis while others get the beat down on, the the simple fact is that many parties cannot handle it.
1. they have ~10k gs characters (I don't, but one in a party does not a strong party make)
2. they misunderstand how to select skills that add pvp opponent disabling while damaging too get the most effect (2 for one sort of thing, control and dps)
3. they are still learning, it takes time.
So you see for many who meet these unwinnable (at this point in time) challenges they have evaluated the situation, and there is no point in beating their head against a brick wall, and don't say you have never done it, because everybody has....
and that is the current reality of pvp. (end of story/rant)
Ideally I'd agree with you. Only it's simply not possible. First of all, most classes can fill different roles, but won't play according to their role per se. Even if you'd go strictly by classes you wouldn't be able to match. 4 GWFs and a DC cal fulfill all those roles, but that's not to say it's a fair match. The DC gets clobbered at every turn, and the 4 GWFs would finish anything that moves around after that.
Same thing goes for PvE. TRs are -even after all the nerfing- pretty good DPS. GFs are fine at tanking (although they need a lot more love in that department). But a GWF can tank and do AOE dps. CWs do AOE dps and control. Who's the system gonna pick?
well, that's the thing about gwf's. they can do everything if they want to at the moment. other classes r not that effective at every role in pvp, although i forgot to include a debuffer role.
ah, i forgot to separate dps into aoe/single-target. and ideally, at the very least it could give teams a way to selectively pick who can join their group rather than the 3 dps + 1 guardian + 1 cleric.
Ideally I'd agree with you. Only it's simply not possible. First of all, most classes can fill different roles, but won't play according to their role per se. Even if you'd go strictly by classes you wouldn't be able to match. 4 GWFs and a DC cal fulfill all those roles, but that's not to say it's a fair match. The DC gets clobbered at every turn, and the 4 GWFs would finish anything that moves around after that.
Same thing goes for PvE. TRs are -even after all the nerfing- pretty good DPS. GFs are fine at tanking (although they need a lot more love in that department). But a GWF can tank and do AOE dps. CWs do AOE dps and control. Who's the system gonna pick?
They can start by not putting multiple DCs/GWFs on one team, and none on the other.
The big difference is the ego of the one sitting down. Surrender is a team decision, and not yours to make alone.
But if you favor "fighting until the bitter end", that suggests that you would always vote NO for surrender, regardless, right? So you would force me to continue fighting...for what purpose?
...
what will end up happening is there will likely be an AFK penalty or you will get zero glory if you are marked afk during a match. ...
I hope not. Just adding another mechanic to counter it will only be countered again. The players will put something onto their keyboard, or they start chatting, or do whatever that marks them as active.
What it needs is a change in the scoring system. Like I have already written in my first comment in this thread does the score not always perfectly reflect each player's contribution to a victory. Just standing on an opponents' tower makes it stop ticking but does not give any scoring points. Yet is this an important tactic to get a victory. The time a player stands on a tower needs to be included into the score.
It might also be a good idea to give each player of the winning team +500 points extra for the victory so that it helps them to distinguish themselves further from the losers. Further, moving the threshold point for the glory reward higher should be considered (i.e. from 350 to 500).
The losers then should get some more glory and the winners a bit less compared to what they get now, so that it matters a little less who has actually won. If PvP shall be all about having fun then both, the winners and the losers, need to be embraced and rewarded for their participation. Because without losers are there no winners ...
With a bit of luck might losers try harder, knowing they get almost as much glory as the winners as long as they keep fighting, even if it means they were only standing on a tower and dying to the other side.
To whoever said " Just looking for any excuse not to participate in PVP blah blah blah." Dude didn't need an excuse. He didn't have to post his opinions or anything. He could just not. Just go AFK when match is lost. Stay quiet about it whatever. I'm guessing he is just saying why he does so maybe a solution arises so he don't have to.
BTW I've yet to PVP so I'm clueless to even how it works, but seriously instead of your a this and your a that, you could try being constructive. LOL funny the attitude of peeps hiding behind a keyboard.
As a young boy chasing Dragons with your wooden sword so mighty, You're St. George or you're David and you always killed the beast
Times change very quickly And you had to grow up early. A house in smoking ruins and the bodies at your feet ~Iron Maiden
Just the remaining players in that match. I'll accept any real life excuse that comes up, but "we can't win this" is totally BS. I've come back from 500-150 and still won. No premade, just in a pug.
And again, keep doing nothing and the matchmaking will keep doing the same thing. It's your choice. If you do what you always did, you'll get what you already had.
I have often said (in chat) that a match was pointless, that we had no chance and that it was a waste of time. BUT I still kept fighting, I tried to cap nodes. Tried to make them work for their kill. Typically I failed, got laughed at for charging 5 of them while alone on my CW, and then had sand kicked in my face. But I did not give up on the team, even when they gave up on me. I will ask for 1v1s, even against the most beastly GWFs I have seen, and they will most likely steamroll my CW, but I still try.
Auto kick them from the instance after a certain amount of time. And when you get kicked for going AFK you get nothing but the leaver penalty.
Narayan
FYI: This is already implemented. If you are longer than 5 minutes afk will you get removed from the match and also get the leaver penalty.
What actually happens is that players now often start chatting, come with pointless arguments, throw around blame and insults, etc. while standing at the fire rather than fighting.
If somebody really needs to leave the keyboard, because of something in real life, then I actually do not mind it. What makes me mad are suckers who cannot stand a defeat and therefore put all their hate out onto the chat. I have already tried turning off the chat, but it often hits the players who actually contributed to a match who then get the blame, and I just won't let it stand and rather get on the chat as well and tell the suckers the truth into their face how terrible they are. I even go as far as throwing a match when somebody cannot shut up while we are winning but has to let their hate out at others while everybody else is having fun. I do not need to win so badly that I cannot afford to throw a match and rather enjoy making the sucker explode in rage over the loss. I like to fight and if the enemy is within my team will I try to give them defeat.
Ask yourself: do you play PvP because you like PvP or do you play PvP to farm glory?
I play cuz I like killing people. :P Jk, jk. I actually play PvP because I like to compete against people who can actually think, rather than NPCs that can only cast red circles. However, I think that for a 40 minute match, 300 glory is a little underwhelming, don't you think?
i think we need a real matchmaking system for pve and pvp. for pvp, it could match us based on roles and strengths and try to balance teams that way. for pve, it can allow people to join dungeons regardless of class if their role is desired by the group.
should help immensely for pvp since some matches r simply decided by class composition
pvp (check all that applies)
Strengths
anti-gwf
anti-rogue
anti-perma-stealth rogue
anti-cleric
anti-wizard
anti-hunter
Roles
heal
dps
crowd-control
tank
debuffs
backcapper
node contester
pve (check all that applies)
tank
aoe dps
single-target dps
boss killer
healer
debuffer
crowd-control
kiter
what would be awsome, but obviously would take 10 years to get a queue for, would be 5vs5 all the same class hehe.
I play cuz I like killing people. :P Jk, jk. I actually play PvP because I like to compete against people who can actually think, rather than NPCs that can only cast red circles. However, I think that for a 40 minute match, 300 glory is a little underwhelming, don't you think?
There has to be a cap for a single match, it does not mean that a match goes on indefinitely should grant an infinite amount of Glory, that's just asking to be exploited. Losing a match gets you 300 while a winner may get 700 for a match, that actually is reasonable. Winning a GG PVP caps at 500 points, so how much would you want losing a PVP match to award you?
A match may be prolonged by the players' desire to compete or win, that desire defines PVP. If there were no rewards to PVP, does your like of PVP diminish? There are PVPers whom already have maxed out their gear from all the Glory they can farm, so as little Glory as you say is awarded, why continue to PVP? There must be another reason.
So let me understand what you expect me to do if I'm in a lopsided match. I am supposed to do what... continue to get killed over and over, knowing that I'm going to lose anyway and that no amount of killing or point capping on my part will change the eventual outcome of the match?
Ask for 1vs1 and/or try to hunt stragglers Just don't AFK or leave.
What actually happens is that players now often start chatting, come with pointless arguments, throw around blame and insults, etc. while standing at the fire rather than fighting.
That's not always the case, you're more likely to notice the haters than the ones that keep quiet. Most of the time I will carry on, but on occasion I will afk if it's affecting my enjoyment. I'm not one to afk or rage quit in other games and am a firm believer in respect. Of course I can get frustrated at other players but would never take it out on them, after all it's more likely the queues fault and they may be trying their best or just trying to have fun even if they may suck.
Edit: and checking out my team I had today we had 3 9000 gs people plus or minus 500. With 14.6k gs (which for my gf who isn't my main isn't especially high, I shouldn't be matched up with those people at all. They focused on the home cap too much and weren't even fighting on it. On the plus side at least one of theirs was somewhat equivalently low geared, and with a little tip and my constant backcapping we just about won though the scores were close with them slightly winning at times. They did at times send 4 people to me though, so if their strategy was better they would've won. Oh also our team had 3 people rush to home base right at the start. That match should never have happened and demonstrates how frustrating matches can be. That's an example of it working out alright, it could've been a lot more one sided.
In my opinion the PvP system should reward both teams for fighting until the bitter end.
The difference between the points of winner and loser team should be considered when the points get calculated.
runonnike wrote:
We lost by 13 points
I think his team deserves a lot of glory for losing so close. Not as much as the winner team, but there should be a significant bonus for getting this near to the winning score.
Maybe I don't fully understand the meaning of the word "glory", but I think there is also a lot of glory for an honorable loser.
If the PvP system would reward a losing team that fights for every single point instead of AFKing, it would be more fun for "real" PvP players AND it would FORCE the other players to give their best.
Another thought on glory: The individual reward should be removed. I'm serious. Why am I supposed to kill a random enemy instead of supporting a team-mate? If this is a group-based PvP match, the player should work for the higher goal (the win) instead of his personal greed (the points)! If this is a group-based PvP match, no one should ever think of making points for himself instead of fighting for his team!
I'm not a great PvP player, I don't even LIKE the PvP in Neverwinter. But I saw this discussion (and I saw it in WoW years ago) and I think the solution is obvious. You don't need penaltys if you make fighting more attractive.
I don't think the problem is that glory awarded is so long for extremely long pvp sessions. Although it is related.
The real problem is how points are awarded. There needs to be a cap for how long sessions can be, which means one of two things could happen to the current PvP: Domination maps:
1. put a timer on the session similar to gauntlgrym pvp. Once the timer is up, the team with most points wins.
or
2. Award points for contested nodes to both teams, either at the normal rate or half the normal rate.
Personally I like options #2 because it lessens the amount the game rewards merry-go-round style play. It also fixes the problem of those players that AFK in campfire to finish a losing game quicker.
1. put a timer on the session similar to gauntlgrym pvp. Once the timer is up, the team with most points wins.
Winning team should be whoever reaches 1000 first or has highest score when timer runs out.
As for glory amount: seems fine to me. Gives people something to strive for. You can get a complete Grimm set and artifact by light playing PvP for a few weeks. I think getting my T2 PvE set took much, much longer. And if you are really serious about PvP you will play it so much that you will have a complete Profound set before you know it.
One of the aspects of getting glory the fastest possible is intentionally losing a match. Players doing this, do it because the match ends quicker, by potential orders of magnitude. In other words, the game rewards AFKing in the campfire. Even if a penalty was put in place for sitting in the campfire, it would have to be drastic enough to overcome this reward.
As long as matches can potentially be, realistically and often in practice, 30 minutes or longer, any kind of reasonable penalty won't be enough to warrant not afking in campfire in situations a player judges to be an unwinnable game, if they are trying to maximize glory per time spent. Even in situation a player decides they have a small chance to win, there will be many people for that -- small chance at a 30 minute comeback -- it isn't worth it. Reason being, there are fortunately other things to do in this game other than PvP.
A good example of this is a technique I personally use to get easy glory. When first logging in for the day, queue up for a PvP match before anything else. If it is anything other than a complete stomp for your team, leave the game to go do things like boon dailies. After dailies are finished, join another PvP match, if it is anything other than a complete stomp for your team, leave the game to go do dungeon/rhix dailies.
The real issue is that games can potentially take a long time and that the losers receive negligible rewards. And that players are punished for putting in effort.
1- Allow kick in pvp with party vote: lately alot of players choose to go afk once they see that they wont make it in top 5, many close games are with someone dieing multiple times due to your fabulous matchmaking and at some point they just stop playing leaving the rest of us in a 4v5, even if the team overall is winning.
2- Let replacements join a 4 man team: same behavior, at some point they decide to leave and play an alt. If is not a stomp they'll just leave resulting in 4v5.
Last 3 days i rarely been able to play a pvp game that doesnt turn in a 4v5 so please fix this.
That said, the reward system does promote people going for a cap, rather than fighting with an eye on the big picture. I always take a loss at the start of a game, because I always stay on the mount, bust through the free for all on 2 and head for 3, where depending on the number of players sitting like ducks on their mounts, I either kill them and take the cap, eh, 1 in 3 say if its 1 vs 1 or at a push 1 vs 2; hassle them so much before getting wiped that they lose 1 and 2 while they're trying to kill me, 1 vs. 3 or 4 again at a push. Or just get obliterated in about 5 seconds flat if they're high gear.
Whatever happens to me, it gives our team a head start, and usually takes us to a win if our gs scores arent too unbalanced. However it does mean if I have to back cap and contest nodes alone while the rest of my team decide to bugger off and sit on a cap for points, I get nerfed on glory at the end, I might make it up in kills and rush etc. Bonuses, but mostly not.
So yeah, an award system that took into account strategic play would be nice, or a weighting shift for capping a point alone or in enemy territory or something.
Spawn camping could only happen if PvP was very unbalanced. But Cryptic clains the PvP is now perfectly balanced since the Elo is here. Elo is a reliable thing that has been used for years in mind sports like chess.
Here is a proof that thanks to the Elo as implemented by Cryptic, the PvP is perfectly balanced and that spawn camping is a thing of the past
ToD = ..........
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
Solution for no afk. Make match making not only for lvl, but also for Gear Score, now 9000-12000 GS players have to go PvP vs 15000-20000k... They kill in 3-4 hits, so where logic? So why no point to END pvp just stay AFK...
Spawn camping could only happen if PvP was very unbalanced. But Cryptic clains the PvP is now perfectly balanced since the Elo is here. Elo is a reliable thing that has been used for years in mind sports like chess.
Here is a proof that thanks to the Elo as implemented by Cryptic, the PvP is perfectly balanced and that spawn camping is a thing of the past
There is only so much ELO can do when some new PvPers are entering matches with a GS as low as 6.5k and gear including greens. I have had a few of these guys in some of my teams recently - oddly enough they usually play GWF and GF. They fold like wet cardboard if anyone looks at them hard.
A full set of level 60 blues is cheap on the AH. There really is no excuse for going into a match so unprepared and then campfire AFKing because 'the match is unbalanced'.
Comments
should help immensely for pvp since some matches r simply decided by class composition
pvp (check all that applies)
pve (check all that applies)
Ok let me put this simply for you, I have played pvp extensively at times, when you have multi OP chracters within certain parties, (yes I'm talking about gwf/gf/tr or even multi hr combined with the previous) that constantly disable or are immune or perm invis while others get the beat down on, the the simple fact is that many parties cannot handle it.
1. they have ~10k gs characters (I don't, but one in a party does not a strong party make)
2. they misunderstand how to select skills that add pvp opponent disabling while damaging too get the most effect (2 for one sort of thing, control and dps)
3. they are still learning, it takes time.
So you see for many who meet these unwinnable (at this point in time) challenges they have evaluated the situation, and there is no point in beating their head against a brick wall, and don't say you have never done it, because everybody has....
and that is the current reality of pvp. (end of story/rant)
for pve or pvp? i suppose u can do it for pvp, but that's on u if your own team loses. for pve, it's pretty much wizards online anyways.
well, that's the thing about gwf's. they can do everything if they want to at the moment. other classes r not that effective at every role in pvp, although i forgot to include a debuffer role.
ah, i forgot to separate dps into aoe/single-target. and ideally, at the very least it could give teams a way to selectively pick who can join their group rather than the 3 dps + 1 guardian + 1 cleric.
They can start by not putting multiple DCs/GWFs on one team, and none on the other.
But if you favor "fighting until the bitter end", that suggests that you would always vote NO for surrender, regardless, right? So you would force me to continue fighting...for what purpose?
What it needs is a change in the scoring system. Like I have already written in my first comment in this thread does the score not always perfectly reflect each player's contribution to a victory. Just standing on an opponents' tower makes it stop ticking but does not give any scoring points. Yet is this an important tactic to get a victory. The time a player stands on a tower needs to be included into the score.
It might also be a good idea to give each player of the winning team +500 points extra for the victory so that it helps them to distinguish themselves further from the losers. Further, moving the threshold point for the glory reward higher should be considered (i.e. from 350 to 500).
The losers then should get some more glory and the winners a bit less compared to what they get now, so that it matters a little less who has actually won. If PvP shall be all about having fun then both, the winners and the losers, need to be embraced and rewarded for their participation. Because without losers are there no winners ...
With a bit of luck might losers try harder, knowing they get almost as much glory as the winners as long as they keep fighting, even if it means they were only standing on a tower and dying to the other side.
King Pointsman at Thermopylae
BTW I've yet to PVP so I'm clueless to even how it works, but seriously instead of your a this and your a that, you could try being constructive. LOL funny the attitude of peeps hiding behind a keyboard.
Times change very quickly And you had to grow up early. A house in smoking ruins and the bodies at your feet ~Iron Maiden
Auto kick them from the instance after a certain amount of time. And when you get kicked for going AFK you get nothing but the leaver penalty.
Narayan
Narayan
What actually happens is that players now often start chatting, come with pointless arguments, throw around blame and insults, etc. while standing at the fire rather than fighting.
If somebody really needs to leave the keyboard, because of something in real life, then I actually do not mind it. What makes me mad are suckers who cannot stand a defeat and therefore put all their hate out onto the chat. I have already tried turning off the chat, but it often hits the players who actually contributed to a match who then get the blame, and I just won't let it stand and rather get on the chat as well and tell the suckers the truth into their face how terrible they are. I even go as far as throwing a match when somebody cannot shut up while we are winning but has to let their hate out at others while everybody else is having fun. I do not need to win so badly that I cannot afford to throw a match and rather enjoy making the sucker explode in rage over the loss. I like to fight and if the enemy is within my team will I try to give them defeat.
There is that system for GG
I play cuz I like killing people. :P Jk, jk. I actually play PvP because I like to compete against people who can actually think, rather than NPCs that can only cast red circles. However, I think that for a 40 minute match, 300 glory is a little underwhelming, don't you think?
what would be awsome, but obviously would take 10 years to get a queue for, would be 5vs5 all the same class hehe.
A match may be prolonged by the players' desire to compete or win, that desire defines PVP. If there were no rewards to PVP, does your like of PVP diminish? There are PVPers whom already have maxed out their gear from all the Glory they can farm, so as little Glory as you say is awarded, why continue to PVP? There must be another reason.
Ask for 1vs1 and/or try to hunt stragglers
Edit: and checking out my team I had today we had 3 9000 gs people plus or minus 500. With 14.6k gs (which for my gf who isn't my main isn't especially high, I shouldn't be matched up with those people at all. They focused on the home cap too much and weren't even fighting on it. On the plus side at least one of theirs was somewhat equivalently low geared, and with a little tip and my constant backcapping we just about won though the scores were close with them slightly winning at times. They did at times send 4 people to me though, so if their strategy was better they would've won. Oh also our team had 3 people rush to home base right at the start. That match should never have happened and demonstrates how frustrating matches can be. That's an example of it working out alright, it could've been a lot more one sided.
The difference between the points of winner and loser team should be considered when the points get calculated.
runonnike wrote:
I think his team deserves a lot of glory for losing so close. Not as much as the winner team, but there should be a significant bonus for getting this near to the winning score.
Maybe I don't fully understand the meaning of the word "glory", but I think there is also a lot of glory for an honorable loser.
If the PvP system would reward a losing team that fights for every single point instead of AFKing, it would be more fun for "real" PvP players AND it would FORCE the other players to give their best.
Another thought on glory: The individual reward should be removed. I'm serious. Why am I supposed to kill a random enemy instead of supporting a team-mate? If this is a group-based PvP match, the player should work for the higher goal (the win) instead of his personal greed (the points)! If this is a group-based PvP match, no one should ever think of making points for himself instead of fighting for his team!
I'm not a great PvP player, I don't even LIKE the PvP in Neverwinter. But I saw this discussion (and I saw it in WoW years ago) and I think the solution is obvious. You don't need penaltys if you make fighting more attractive.
The real problem is how points are awarded. There needs to be a cap for how long sessions can be, which means one of two things could happen to the current PvP: Domination maps:
1. put a timer on the session similar to gauntlgrym pvp. Once the timer is up, the team with most points wins.
or
2. Award points for contested nodes to both teams, either at the normal rate or half the normal rate.
Personally I like options #2 because it lessens the amount the game rewards merry-go-round style play. It also fixes the problem of those players that AFK in campfire to finish a losing game quicker.
Winning team should be whoever reaches 1000 first or has highest score when timer runs out.
As for glory amount: seems fine to me. Gives people something to strive for. You can get a complete Grimm set and artifact by light playing PvP for a few weeks. I think getting my T2 PvE set took much, much longer. And if you are really serious about PvP you will play it so much that you will have a complete Profound set before you know it.
As long as matches can potentially be, realistically and often in practice, 30 minutes or longer, any kind of reasonable penalty won't be enough to warrant not afking in campfire in situations a player judges to be an unwinnable game, if they are trying to maximize glory per time spent. Even in situation a player decides they have a small chance to win, there will be many people for that -- small chance at a 30 minute comeback -- it isn't worth it. Reason being, there are fortunately other things to do in this game other than PvP.
A good example of this is a technique I personally use to get easy glory. When first logging in for the day, queue up for a PvP match before anything else. If it is anything other than a complete stomp for your team, leave the game to go do things like boon dailies. After dailies are finished, join another PvP match, if it is anything other than a complete stomp for your team, leave the game to go do dungeon/rhix dailies.
The real issue is that games can potentially take a long time and that the losers receive negligible rewards. And that players are punished for putting in effort.
1- Allow kick in pvp with party vote: lately alot of players choose to go afk once they see that they wont make it in top 5, many close games are with someone dieing multiple times due to your fabulous matchmaking and at some point they just stop playing leaving the rest of us in a 4v5, even if the team overall is winning.
2- Let replacements join a 4 man team: same behavior, at some point they decide to leave and play an alt. If is not a stomp they'll just leave resulting in 4v5.
Last 3 days i rarely been able to play a pvp game that doesnt turn in a 4v5 so please fix this.
That said, the reward system does promote people going for a cap, rather than fighting with an eye on the big picture. I always take a loss at the start of a game, because I always stay on the mount, bust through the free for all on 2 and head for 3, where depending on the number of players sitting like ducks on their mounts, I either kill them and take the cap, eh, 1 in 3 say if its 1 vs 1 or at a push 1 vs 2; hassle them so much before getting wiped that they lose 1 and 2 while they're trying to kill me, 1 vs. 3 or 4 again at a push. Or just get obliterated in about 5 seconds flat if they're high gear.
Whatever happens to me, it gives our team a head start, and usually takes us to a win if our gs scores arent too unbalanced. However it does mean if I have to back cap and contest nodes alone while the rest of my team decide to bugger off and sit on a cap for points, I get nerfed on glory at the end, I might make it up in kills and rush etc. Bonuses, but mostly not.
So yeah, an award system that took into account strategic play would be nice, or a weighting shift for capping a point alone or in enemy territory or something.
Here is a proof that thanks to the Elo as implemented by Cryptic, the PvP is perfectly balanced and that spawn camping is a thing of the past
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
A full set of level 60 blues is cheap on the AH. There really is no excuse for going into a match so unprepared and then campfire AFKing because 'the match is unbalanced'.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder