Maybe they wanted to use the pull and repell adds into the chasm tactic, but I dont know. I for one ask nicely for ppl to play according to the needs of the group once or twice, then I anounce, that I woud leave, if ... and in the end leave the party. Thing is, I do this at the BEGINNING of a dungeon, not the end.
What they did is bad style. What you did seems to be stubborn, but as said before, I did not participate in the run. PPl give you grive for all kind of things. PUGs are pissed, if I run with my DC and put the astral shield where they are supposed to be, not where they are (btw. got one not four, so either way just one of them woud be happy and the other 3 pissed). Look for a guild or decent players. Accept reasonable requests and leave, if you think, that it wont work (last one shoud be early or after multiple trys/ warnings).
I play for fun. If I dont like a group and I dont think, that it will get better I leave (as said before early on or... s.o.). Dont ruin your/ their day by trying to force a group. I once left a MC group with 3 whererat companions destroying all attemts to group mobs. I asked nicely 3 or 4 times. Told them that they shoud consider, if a CW is more of a help, than their rats and left, after they became rude.
Seriously, spacejew, this post could only be created by someone who hasn't understood the game a bit and also is not willing to.
You write about 3 stacks of HV debuff, well, which HV? MoF usually doesn't use HV, SW is the way to go.
...really? No. Even if yes, OF is still better. As I said, it's in every possible scenario that FI underperforms in, so make an argument. You'll be wrong. SW set has lots of crit rating, right? How's that work in your benefit for FI again? It doesn't crit, if you recall. How about the life steal that does less without crits? Or the extra crit severity that is wasted on FI?
Then what is the point for using an ability with a 15 target cap, when there are only 6 or 7 targets? What exactly does the higher cap grant you?
Then why are you using a daily on them? I mean that seriously, you could use an encounter and it would do more damage and more CC. Is hitting that extra 3 targets and doing less damage because of it somehow value added? The answer is no regardless of the situation. If it's the gather effect of FI you're looking for, it's called Singularity.
Just one situation, go to SP, one of these small groups, frogs, gazers, usually accompanied by a seer. Cast FI on them followed by ST, throw a shard into the group. At this point as latest all except of maybe the seer (depending on your dps)should be dead. That's pretty much all the control you need there.
Again, using your daily on groups of 5-8 huh? Shard still hits 5. Steal Time still hits 5. They both still do more damage than your FI, while still using your entire daily bar to do so. The only question is what you get for that daily bar, and getting FI is a joke considering the other possibilities. That's the end of the story.
And as mentioned by chemboy and I think others before, mobs are controlled in no way while they are gathered by sing, this whole time you just have no CC on them. While FI CCs them immediately, interrupts their AoEs, ST dazes them, still interrupted AoEs, shard interrupts again, and you have CC on them all the time. Not to forget that FI applies smolder to the group and debuffs for the following abilities. In situations like these, I think that FI is superior.
On the other hand, if you like to pull several groups at once there, use sing, because in this case sing is superior because of the higher target cap.
If I tried to run cn and someone said "I didn't spec sing" I would stop the run and be like dude... You need respec. Lol
There are so many arguments you're getting wrong here. And to be frank I disagree with Chem in this respect, but I also already know that he runs CN with two other mages who are using singularity.
A) FI does not daze unless you feated into it. If you feated into it, God help you and respec. Add's will immediately scatter after it's over unless you are hitting them with a follow-up encounter that does more CC and more damage than the FI you started with. (And guess what? FI gathers 3 more than your encounters will CC/damage. So completely wasted extra cap. Oops!)
There is no need to throw FI into a group being gathered by Singularity. No reason at all. You could use an encounter and do more damage and more control. Period. God help you, you could drop an ice knife and be better off.
C) Even chem uses Critical Conflagration to apply smolder. FI is still not required to do so. A situation where applying smolder to 8 targets right now or else does not exist. If you are using your daily bar to apply smolder you are very, very, very bad.
D) Regardless of what you built for, be it damage or control or even a hybrid, using FI is not going to maximize your potential or be as useful to your team as using other options. You are under performing by a gross margin, and few teams will have reason to put up with you unless they like you personally.
Point D, I think, isn't even the OP's point. Clearly they were kicking for the boss drop like jerks. I do not condone that behavior period. However, Point D is going to get you kicked from PUG's on occasion simply because any other CW will probably be better given you've already proven yourself to be clueless simply by using FI in the first place.
FI probably does fine if you're overgearing the instance by almost double the recommended GS. At that point, it doesn't matter what you use anymore it's all a joke. (And I still wouldn't use FI, even for a lark. It's not worth the 3 power points just to screw around.)
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Which waste are you speaking of? What you don't take into account is that MoF can't gain AP outside battle, but they gain AP during fights much faster than SS do. So what you call a waste isn't a waste at all, after this rotation I have my AP almost or completely filled up again. And I usually use mostly sing at SP since I like to pulll several groups at once, it was just an example.
Imho everyone should play what he feels fits best for him, but still be open to other opinions. There are many ways which work in dungeons, there are even many teamcomps which work in most of the dungeons. That's the fun of a game, to try and test different appraoches, at least for me and I think many other players, too.
Which waste are you speaking of? What you don't take into account is that MoF can't gain AP outside battle, but they gain AP during fights much faster than SS do. So what you call a waste isn't a waste at all, after this rotation I have my AP almost or completely filled up again. And I usually use mostly sing at SP since I like to pulll several groups at once, it was just an example.
Imho everyone should play what he feels fits best for him, but still be open to other opinions. There are many ways which work in dungeons, there are even many teamcomps which work in most of the dungeons. That's the fun of a game, to try and test different appraoches, at least for me and I think many other players, too.
I take everything into account, and your argument is invalid. What you propose is for players to consciously do far worse for themselves and their groups because of a preference for a patently under powered ability. FI does not build AP, it spends them, and spends them on subpar crappy damage that hits barely over the encounter cap.
The dirty secret that you are ignoring is that you need to slot Combustive Action to gain AP off smolder, or to change the AP gain of MoF over SS in any way, and surprise Singularity generates more AP than FI as well! So even there, it doesn't compete.
I mean, are you one of those people who actually slot and use Maelstrom of Chaos? And frankly, even Maelstrom is better than FI. And yes, I am aware you can't have both. It's just as an illustration that both of the top tier dailies are garbage, and are meant to be skipped.
Just as a final point, I'm not pulling this out of the air. I have tested FI in every dungeon and found it vastly underperformed always. I mean that. I can not stress that word enough. Always.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
Yeah, crit conflag is so good I don't see how i could take it off my bar. smolder AND 15% crit severity - how good is that!?!?
I think if you have a group of mobs that are spread out and sufficently small, immolation is faster and better than sing,
That said it's rare in many spots, so that Sing or force are really excellent choices,
The part where it's FH where the golems aren't controlled _and_ move quickly, you could use immolation to quickly pull the other mobs to the golem's location and then nuke them. So if there is a good spot for immolation - FH is it.
I tried it in CN for a while, but right now sing and OF are more effective. I think it would often depend on the size of the pulls.
I would love to see a higher target cap, if it was 12 or something, i could use this instead of sing.
I'm with you on that part Chem. With the bar set at Oppressive Force and Singularity any other daily is going to need a really potent effect of some sort to warrant it's use over the big two.
Ice Knife is really the only other viable Daily, and even then only because it's the biggest single-target burst CW gets. If there's a niche daily that is still somewhat useful, it's Ice Knife. It's most certainly not FI or Maelstrom. Some swear by Ice Storm, but frankly if there's a group troll daily it's Ice Storm.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
Well, a friend of mine tested, and if you have all the AOE feats, ice storm might have better damage than ice knife, but the situations where it's actually a better option are so slim it's hard to use properly.
Ice knife is also seldom used.
So after Sing and OF, it's hard to say what is the next daily. I actually really like immolation, but the target cap is too low for how i run dungeons (but might be effective at a slower pace).
I cannot convince myself while malestorm is even worth experimenting with, it is slow, it does no damage, and the only instance where it was useful, it isn't anymore. I'm so sad, because it looks cool.
Ice Knife is really the only other viable Daily, and even then only because it's the biggest single-target burst CW gets. If there's a niche daily that is still somewhat useful, it's Ice Knife. It's most certainly not FI or Maelstrom. Some swear by Ice Storm, but frankly if there's a group troll daily it's Ice Storm.
I would have to agree that Ice Storm is the "I'm going to be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to the party today" Daily.
And ironically there was ONE whopping location in the game Maelstrom of Chaos was actually useful. The dragon fight in Malabog's Castle on removing Valindra's Choke hold... but apparently this was just a bug, and subsequently "fixed" according to patch notes.
I haven't tried it there yet, but the irony of them making Maelstrom completely useless instead of just mostly useless was not lost on me.
Honestly though I cannot judge MoF Dailys as I have never played one or used one to determine its effectiveness myself.
EDIT: I will have to say though Ice Storm does actually have its place though, it is actually useful in very limited circumstances like the platform in Spellplague during the Aboleth interludes when it removes the invulnerability from the Aboleth Suitors. Or place with a lot of ledges... but mostly it just annoys the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the party when its used. So while prior to the "fix" Maelstrom was mostly useless, but very useful in one specific circumstance, Ice Storm is mostly annoying, but useful in very limited circumstances.
Maelstrom now is just completely useless.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
I've only played around with MoF on test server, but barring that:
If FI had 15 target cap, and I was MoF, i would absolutely use it over Singularity, all the time. Singu would never be on my bar, only OF and FI.
The only purpose of Singularity is to gather scattered mobs up for aoe. It isn't used for control or damage, so who cares if it crits or not. FI does the only thing that singularity is used for, far, far better than Singularity. It also doesn't interfere with half of the spells that CWs use and it doesn't take 19 years to actually do it's job, it's practically instant.
The only reason FI is bad is 8 target cap. If you are low dps group and only pull 1 pack at a time then actually FI is fine.
You can spend an eternity wishing and waiting for other things to work the way you wish they would, or can you use what already exists to do the job well. FI under performs in every conceivable scenario, for every conceivable build. Wishing it to be decent is fine, but pretending like it already is would be ignorance.
I was being sarcastic of course, the only reason i m playing this game is for the high lvl of customization it has. The problem are proelitist dbs that expect a character of a class to do something specific, they are cancer to a game like this. Everyone should have the same chances to use their preferred build, not having to submit to some prestablished bs.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I was being sarcastic of course, the only reason i m playing this game is for the high lvl of customization it has. The problem are proelitist dbs that expect a character of a class to do something specific, they are cancer to a game like this. Everyone should have the same chances to use their preferred build, not having to submit to some prestablished bs.
Nobody will tell you anything bad about your gameplay if your DPS, debuffs and CC are on par or superior to the FOTM spec.
I can guarantee you that.
So is your original spec on par with the classic spellstorm mage in clearing CN/MC/VT as fast as possible?
If yes, everybody will praise you and ask you for the spec you using. I got this all time when I PvEed a lot.
You should only worry if what you play performs subpar compared to the FOTM specs you seem to hate.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
Vic is correct.
As for FH specifically, i went in there with Sing and Force yesterday. I think i barely used sing, because sing is useless on golems and everything else died too quickly
As for FH specifically, i went in there with Sing and Force yesterday. I think i barely used sing, because sing is useless on golems and everything else died too quickly
Yeah FH is a fun one to go into just to have fun wrecking mass amounts of mobs at this point.
I've been <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> around in Irdis lately too with what everyone calls PUG parties. Not sure what that actually stands for but I assume it means newbies. I want to finish collecting the Archmage gear so I can get that title. I have Magelord title, which is a good one. But there's just something about having Archmage over your name, that really suits the FR.
As for FH specifically, i went in there with Sing and Force yesterday. I think i barely used sing, because sing is useless on golems and everything else died too quickly
Could you please elaborate more fully on this strategy.
Because I have never seen it work. I have attempted it once or twice and it led to a wipe. I have only ever seen the kiting strategy used successfully.
I was being sarcastic of course, the only reason i m playing this game is for the high lvl of customization it has. The problem are proelitist dbs that expect a character of a class to do something specific, they are cancer to a game like this. Everyone should have the same chances to use their preferred build, not having to submit to some prestablished bs.
There are players who play together for rp/theme and not for min-maxing clearing the dungeon, so if that's what you want to do, there are players out there who will welcome that. But if you run with the average type of players who want to do the dungeon as quickly as possible so they can move onto the next one, it's only polite to fit in with them, not expect them to waste time on a build that isn't as efficient as the standard. Unless your non-FOTM build is as efficient as standard, in which case, as the guy says above, people will be beating a path to your door to figure out how you're doing it.
The failure is, unfortunately, with the devs, who aren't able to balance all the abilities so they're all equally useful, plus they haven't designed dungeons in such a way that all abilities have a use. And even that's not their fault really, MMOs are so difficult to make it's a miracle any of them get made ever, and Cryptic do pretty well on the whole.
The failure is, unfortunately, with the devs, who aren't able to balance all the abilities so they're all equally useful, plus they haven't designed dungeons in such a way that all abilities have a use. And even that's not their fault really, MMOs are so difficult to make it's a miracle any of them get made ever, and Cryptic do pretty well on the whole.
If there is one power that overplays all the others to a point where you are kicked if you don t use it, it means on of two things (in the context of this game of course, cause they exist only in this game); that skill is too powerful or the other equivalent skills are too weak. Encounter powers can somewhat be balanced by the cooldown times, but dailies (except HR s) all cost 100 AP, and as such every daily of a class should be as poweful as the other in one way or another.
This game doesn't have FOTM builds, it's always been the same two or three builds with the same two or three rotations. There are a few exceptions that revolve around the buff/nerf cycle, like no one using shield burst anymore, but mostly it's the exact same for everyone because it's what works. Fully half of the abilities, powers, spells, and dailies are frankly useless and underpowered and pretty much everyone knows this on some level. (Or should.)
The 'skill' involved has always been timing and rotations of the same 6 or 7 powers. If you see someone deviating from that norm, it isn't because they have some secret skill or have a niche build. It's because they are inept. This holds true for every class in the game, or at least the 5 classes I've played in T2 and beyond.
Could you please elaborate more fully on this strategy.
Because I have never seen it work. I have attempted it once or twice and it led to a wipe. I have only ever seen the kiting strategy used successfully.
Increase your gearscore to 15k+, or have an entire team composed of people who really know how to play. I.E. everyone actually knows what power to use when and understands that AoE damage will be absolutely required. (Or, alternatively, a group that can kill the boss so quickly that add's never become a problem.)
It's not so much a strategy as it is the brute force technique when everyone is far above gear score for the dungeon. It's doable otherwise, don't get me wrong, but IMO it's a bigger risk of a wipe when you try it so ultimately the kite method is the 'normal'. Not sure why people pretend like smashing it until it's dead is a strategy, but I think the main reason is epeen stroking.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Yes genius, that is the problem exactly. There shouldn t be a skill that works and another that doesn t, because in the end they all cost the same skill point. Having diferent approaches to similar problems, that should be the point of character building, not having to follow a specific path or be a loser. If that s the case then Diablo 3 got it right, aside from being one of the most boring online games i ve played, it uses a system were every character is the same and only changes what equipment you have, and even then the equipment isn t that varied or original.
If there is one power that overplays all the others to a point where you are kicked if you don t use it, it means on of two things (in the context of this game of course, cause they exist only in this game); that skill is too powerful or the other equivalent skills are too weak. Encounter powers can somewhat be balanced by the cooldown times, but dailies (except HR s) all cost 100 AP, and as such every daily of a class should be as poweful as the other in one way or another.
I agree, I agree, but the trouble is, the variability is there, everywhere except at the top end of players. For most players of this game, probably, most of the abilities (other than those outright bugged) do have uses. The trouble is, the high end of players always seem to "break" a system, however varied it might have been intended, and turn it into "damage is king" soup.
I've seeen it happen in every MMO, and devs consistently underestimate the ability of min-maxers to sniff out boring FOTM **** that everyone eventually uses simply because it is more efficient time-wise to use it.
It's nobody's fault really, and nobody is doing anything bad or wrong, it's just the way it is until and unless developers are able to create much more interesting AI in dungeons more easily (i.e. with the resources they've got).
Another way of looking at it: it is actually solvable, but to solve it as things stand would require more warm bodies in the dev team, working to a higher standard, with better Q&A, etc., etc., to implement waaay more sophisticated AI and waaaay more interesting and complex dungeon crawls. It takes a company with humungous resources and stellar success like Blizzard to even make a good fist of it, and even then, a fairly boring meta still falls out of it all at the high end. And when Blizzard did it, with raids, they found out that 90% of the playerbase didn't even see that clever stuff they'd put so much effort into - so why even bother?
See, there's devs min-maxing their time and resources, and players min-maxing what the devs give them Somewhere in that mix, the idea of roleplaying unique and interesting characters gets a bit lost - but again, only at the high end.
I think also, you've got to factor in the whole idea of progression and rewards. Why do people do things efficiently? To take less time, so they can do more things efficiently. Why? So they get the high end gear quicker. Why? Well ... There's something a bit wonky about the whole concept of progression being tied to gear grind, it's what drives the meta to time efficiency instead of creating a virtual world together.
Ultimately, these games are hamster-wheels all the way down, and that's ultimately the cause of how boring they eventually get.
Yes genius, that is the problem exactly. There shouldn t be a skill that works and another that doesn t, because in the end they all cost the same skill point. Having diferent approaches to similar problems, that should be the point of character building, not having to follow a specific path or be a loser. If that s the case then Diablo 3 got it right, aside from being one of the most boring online games i ve played, it uses a system were every character is the same and only changes what equipment you have, and even then the equipment isn t that varied or original.
All I can really say is that you should go find another game that supports that style of gameplay. Neverwinter is hopelessly cookie cutter, and will remain so forever. This is not Neverwinter Nights. It will never be Neverwinter Nights. There will never be meaningful build/power diversification in this game. Period. Your Paragon determines what rotation/powers you will use.
People will pretend like it's otherwise, but in all seriousness go and look through the builds for each class. Skip the feats section, and go directly to where they describe their rotations/power selections. They are virtually identical if the person has actually played their class. That's just how it is. It's also why I say there are no FOTM builds. Any deviation is the result of GS simplifying content to the point where almost anything can work. (Or they run a premade group with a vastly different style that is terribly outside the norm. Also possible, but usually breaks a character for playing with anyone else.)
The content was entirely designed with only 2 or 3 classes and about a dozen powers in mind. Anything on top of that is filler that doesn't matter but gives the illusion of difficulty depth. If that annoys you, I submit you should learn to stop worrying and love the bomb and get your GS as high as possible as quickly as possible so that you too can ignore dungeon mechanics for large profit.
(And yes, one of the mandatory powers for content clearing is Singularity. Everyone knows and recognizes this. If they claim otherwise you can safely conclude that they are trolling, epeen stroking their GS, or rationalizing away short comings in content design.)
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
I agree, I agree, but the trouble is, the variability is there, everywhere except at the top end of players. For most players of this game, probably, most of the abilities (other than those outright bugged) do have uses. The trouble is, the high end of players always seem to "break" a system, however varied it might have been intended, and turn it into "damage is king" soup.
I've seeen it happen in every MMO, and devs consistently underestimate the ability of min-maxers to sniff out boring FOTM **** that everyone eventually uses simply because it is more efficient time-wise to use it..
Its not even that in this game.
Honestly its just the way the game really is designed. Since inception do you know what I found myself doing most in this game? And we're talking a good 90% of the time in dungeons since I was just a newbie to them.
Gathering massive amounts of mobs togather and mowing them down with AoEs. Regardless of my build, regardless of what I tried, that was the reality of what I was spending a good 90% of the time doing. Party survival and success generally means I've got to.
Other configurations, while certainly had merits, but you never got any use out of them generally, (We're talking post control power Nerf back towards the beginning). Almost everything else was just situational. Heck even CoI and Magic Missile were shockingly. But at least you do at some point use those during any given dungeon if that's your spec.
Every now and then I'd be on single target damage and debuff, but it was kinda rare comparatively or it would be outside of the normal dungeon crawl up to that point.
And every now and then as an even rarer occurrence, I get to push mobs off cliffs and ledges into Fire or Poison, and choke them, or do some kind of crowd control. But that's just not the norm. It's Crowd Control via massive AoEs.
I spend and have always spent a great deal of time burning down mass waves of mobs repeatedly. And doing the single target damage on the boss when that's called for. That's not my design decision. While I certainly like it just fine, there is indeed a reason why all those alternate styles fall by the wayside. And why all those powers that should have their uses... just don't.
Anything else besides those things?
Well that's the rare part, and then of course you have to take into account your party's annoyance level and try not to do the things that make life difficult on them. (Yes Ice Storm we're talking about you)
I guess, but it all sounds like lazy thinking really. All that s needed are changes, testings and adjustments every now and then. Not even Diablo 2 was the best the first day, it took a lot of patches and revisions of skills to make it a legend of online stuff.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
I guess, but it all sounds like lazy thinking really. All that s needed are changes, testings and adjustments every now and then. Not even Diablo 2 was the best the first day, it took a lot of patches and revisions of skills to make it a legend of online stuff.
Well there was a point in time where there was another alternate path for CWs.
It was the total control mage and even more effective than just burning down mobs. The technique was called Sing-botting, This relied heavily on specific things, Entangle (aka Choke), Shield (popping it or bursting it), Enfeeblement, and Repel.
Literally in one round of doing those you could build your AP all the way up. Then cast, Singularity. Or any one of a number of dailys. and you could do this repeatedly over and over. It meant you never had to use a single nuke outside of Singularity you kept all the mobs off the party, and were basically a total control wizard. Also, there was almost never a time you could not Repel or shove mobs off the edge so Repel and Shield pop were common techniques. Those were generally open, with no invisible walls like there are now in many locations. I imagine Ice Storm would have been popular too in those circumstances.
The Devs saw this as an exploit or making the game too easy, and it was thoroughly nerfed. resulting in exactly what you see today. The Control Wizard is no longer really about control in the classic sense. It's about control through AoE damage.
There were previously alternate paths and playstyles, but one by one they were nerfed until we ended up with only one option.
The current path of the CW is exactly what the Devs intended or wanted. I do not know why the decisions were made, but they were. And now we are where we are.
Oh the good old days! I ran with a total recovery build back then. Traded in my silveries for Radiants and haven't looked back. It was super fun while it lasted.
EDIT: I will have to say though Ice Storm does actually have its place though, it is actually useful in very limited circumstances like the platform in Spellplague during the Aboleth interludes when it removes the invulnerability from the Aboleth Suitors. Or place with a lot of ledges... but mostly it just annoys the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the party when its used. So while prior to the "fix" Maelstrom was mostly useless, but very useful in one specific circumstance, Ice Storm is mostly annoying, but useful in very limited circumstances.
A bit off topic but it's actually often useful during boss fights. A well timed ice storm will be 10 times more useful than sing in ToS at syndrith. Handy in SP as you said. There are no better choices than OF - ice storm in VT/valindra and the ice knife - ice storm combo is pretty useful in MC/fulmi and OF - ice storm in MC/malabog is also the best choice. Basically it should be on your bar during a well-designed boss encounter which isn't all about singballing an addfest on top of the boss. During trash it's situational. I could very well see myself using it in MC on non controllable pulls like i do in FH but the occasional and rare times you need sing in there makes slotting sing mandatory.
I've only played around with MoF on test server, but barring that:
If FI had 15 target cap, and I was MoF, i would absolutely use it over Singularity, all the time. Singu would never be on my bar, only OF and FI.
The only purpose of Singularity is to gather scattered mobs up for aoe. It isn't used for control or damage, so who cares if it crits or not. FI does the only thing that singularity is used for, far, far better than Singularity. It also doesn't interfere with half of the spells that CWs use and it doesn't take 19 years to actually do it's job, it's practically instant.
The only reason FI is bad is 8 target cap. If you are low dps group and only pull 1 pack at a time then actually FI is fine.
Well my CW is MoF and can confirm this. CWs using the singball only are probably a bit noobish (and this is is an euphemism) but what could you expect from a pug?
Well there was a point in time where there was another alternate path for CWs.
It was the total control mage and even more effective than just burning down mobs. The technique was called Sing-botting, This relied heavily on specific things, Entangle (aka Choke), Shield (popping it or bursting it), Enfeeblement, and Repel.
Literally in one round of doing those you could build your AP all the way up. Then cast, Singularity. Or any one of a number of dailys. and you could do this repeatedly over and over. It meant you never had to use a single nuke outside of Singularity you kept all the mobs off the party, and were basically a total control wizard. Also, there was almost never a time you could not Repel or shove mobs off the edge so Repel and Shield pop were common techniques. Those were generally open, with no invisible walls like there are now in many locations. I imagine Ice Storm would have been popular too in those circumstances.
The Devs saw this as an exploit or making the game too easy, and it was thoroughly nerfed. resulting in exactly what you see today. The Control Wizard is no longer really about control in the classic sense. It's about control through AoE damage.
There were previously alternate paths and playstyles, but one by one they were nerfed until we ended up with only one option.
The current path of the CW is exactly what the Devs intended or wanted. I do not know why the decisions were made, but they were. And now we are where we are.
While pushing off cliffs was fun, I don't regret it. A few weeks ago, I made a party for PK for quick salvage **** drops to feed my mules and ended up with 5 CWs. That wasn't the kind of party I tried to make but that's what happened. I was expecting 9-10 minutes for a full clear legit run, and instead we needed 10 minutes to reach and kill the first boss, because every effing pull was kept rolling inside that evil black ball forever, and when mobs went down it was only to get pulled and roll even more. Which meant that OF, icy terrain and shard were completely useless. Needless to say that when I convinced everyone not to use sing at all in this well known adds fest dungeon after this singularity disaster it went extremely fast.
I mean, come on, seriously. When I play my CW and when another wizard uses that black hole of pain to make mobs roll above their original location just for the sake of making them rolling and using a daily, locking my shard, my terrain and making of course my OF I just casted completely useless and wasted, I want to bang my head on the desk.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
Could you please elaborate more fully on this strategy.
Because I have never seen it work. I have attempted it once or twice and it led to a wipe. I have only ever seen the kiting strategy used successfully.
you aggro everything, you kite to the golem, dodge his AOE attack, pop force and laugh while the mobs walk into it.
It's not so much a strategy as it is the brute force technique when everyone is far above gear score for the dungeon. It's doable otherwise, don't get me wrong, but IMO it's a bigger risk of a wipe when you try it so ultimately the kite method is the 'normal'. Not sure why people pretend like smashing it until it's dead is a strategy, but I think the main reason is epeen stroking.
Everyone was gearing their alts, so maybe they were only like 11k or 12k. I didn't check at all.
A bit off topic but it's actually often useful during boss fights. A well timed ice storm will be 10 times more useful than sing in ToS at syndrith. Handy in SP as you said.
I seriously don't recommend that unless you have the gear score to one hit things with it. The entire purpose of that is to keep all the mobs in the GWF melee pile so they don't get out of hand and the GWFs lose agro. Throwing them all over the field where they can't touch them will torque people off like there's no tomorrow.
Especially when the idea is keep everything in one spot so things don't get out of hand. So if you do that you better be one hitting them.
There are no better choices than OF - ice storm in VT/valindra and the ice knife - ice storm combo is pretty useful in MC/fulmi and OF - ice storm in MC/malabog is also the best choice. Basically it should be on your bar during a well-designed boss encounter which isn't all about singballing an addfest on top of the boss. During trash it's situational. I could very well see myself using it in MC on non controllable pulls like i do in FH but the occasional and rare times you need sing in there makes slotting sing mandatory.
Oppressive Force yes possibly it doesn't move things that terribly far, and things will still run right back to the center, they're just not be able to attack because they're dazed, where they can still be slaughtered, then you can stun them and everyone will still be able to cut them to ribbons in a singular location. and everyone will still be able to focus fire on them.
Ice Storm errm erm no, not unless you have the gear score to one hit everything with it... it will torque off your party like theres no tomorrow and throw everything in every which direction possible... putting everything in 5 directions at once.... unless its a bunch of Rangers who just do it anyway with their own techniques, and don't have to worry about things in a tight group and don't care as they do that too which... annoys the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the party.
I wouldn't even consider Ice Storm in Malabogs, really anywhere like that. It does the one thing you DON'T want it to do. Throw everything in 5-10 directions all over the field. Unlike OF which just gives it a little push... this one makes chaos of things throws things miles away, and in a bad way, not a good one.
Well my CW is MoF and can confirm this.
I will say one thing though, and agree with you on the MoF technique, I have seen that in action now and it does do what Singularity does and much faster, it is unfortunate that its limited to 8 targets. But for pulling smaller groups of mobs togather it is indeed very effective at it.
you aggro everything, you kite to the golem, dodge his AOE attack, pop force and laugh while the mobs walk into it.
Okay, you can do that once. But then you have to build AP again, and that is tough to do when you are always dodging golem AOE (and boss AOE). That was the problem I had.
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What they did is bad style. What you did seems to be stubborn, but as said before, I did not participate in the run. PPl give you grive for all kind of things. PUGs are pissed, if I run with my DC and put the astral shield where they are supposed to be, not where they are (btw. got one not four, so either way just one of them woud be happy and the other 3 pissed). Look for a guild or decent players. Accept reasonable requests and leave, if you think, that it wont work (last one shoud be early or after multiple trys/ warnings).
I play for fun. If I dont like a group and I dont think, that it will get better I leave (as said before early on or... s.o.). Dont ruin your/ their day by trying to force a group. I once left a MC group with 3 whererat companions destroying all attemts to group mobs. I asked nicely 3 or 4 times. Told them that they shoud consider, if a CW is more of a help, than their rats and left, after they became rude.
Good luck with your future groups, runs.
...really? No. Even if yes, OF is still better. As I said, it's in every possible scenario that FI underperforms in, so make an argument. You'll be wrong. SW set has lots of crit rating, right? How's that work in your benefit for FI again? It doesn't crit, if you recall. How about the life steal that does less without crits? Or the extra crit severity that is wasted on FI?
Then why are you using a daily on them? I mean that seriously, you could use an encounter and it would do more damage and more CC. Is hitting that extra 3 targets and doing less damage because of it somehow value added? The answer is no regardless of the situation. If it's the gather effect of FI you're looking for, it's called Singularity.
Again, using your daily on groups of 5-8 huh? Shard still hits 5. Steal Time still hits 5. They both still do more damage than your FI, while still using your entire daily bar to do so. The only question is what you get for that daily bar, and getting FI is a joke considering the other possibilities. That's the end of the story.
Also:
There are so many arguments you're getting wrong here. And to be frank I disagree with Chem in this respect, but I also already know that he runs CN with two other mages who are using singularity.
A) FI does not daze unless you feated into it. If you feated into it, God help you and respec. Add's will immediately scatter after it's over unless you are hitting them with a follow-up encounter that does more CC and more damage than the FI you started with. (And guess what? FI gathers 3 more than your encounters will CC/damage. So completely wasted extra cap. Oops!)
C) Even chem uses Critical Conflagration to apply smolder. FI is still not required to do so. A situation where applying smolder to 8 targets right now or else does not exist. If you are using your daily bar to apply smolder you are very, very, very bad.
D) Regardless of what you built for, be it damage or control or even a hybrid, using FI is not going to maximize your potential or be as useful to your team as using other options. You are under performing by a gross margin, and few teams will have reason to put up with you unless they like you personally.
Point D, I think, isn't even the OP's point. Clearly they were kicking for the boss drop like jerks. I do not condone that behavior period. However, Point D is going to get you kicked from PUG's on occasion simply because any other CW will probably be better given you've already proven yourself to be clueless simply by using FI in the first place.
FI probably does fine if you're overgearing the instance by almost double the recommended GS. At that point, it doesn't matter what you use anymore it's all a joke. (And I still wouldn't use FI, even for a lark. It's not worth the 3 power points just to screw around.)
Imho everyone should play what he feels fits best for him, but still be open to other opinions. There are many ways which work in dungeons, there are even many teamcomps which work in most of the dungeons. That's the fun of a game, to try and test different appraoches, at least for me and I think many other players, too.
I take everything into account, and your argument is invalid. What you propose is for players to consciously do far worse for themselves and their groups because of a preference for a patently under powered ability. FI does not build AP, it spends them, and spends them on subpar crappy damage that hits barely over the encounter cap.
The dirty secret that you are ignoring is that you need to slot Combustive Action to gain AP off smolder, or to change the AP gain of MoF over SS in any way, and surprise Singularity generates more AP than FI as well! So even there, it doesn't compete.
I mean, are you one of those people who actually slot and use Maelstrom of Chaos? And frankly, even Maelstrom is better than FI. And yes, I am aware you can't have both. It's just as an illustration that both of the top tier dailies are garbage, and are meant to be skipped.
Just as a final point, I'm not pulling this out of the air. I have tested FI in every dungeon and found it vastly underperformed always. I mean that. I can not stress that word enough. Always.
I think if you have a group of mobs that are spread out and sufficently small, immolation is faster and better than sing,
That said it's rare in many spots, so that Sing or force are really excellent choices,
The part where it's FH where the golems aren't controlled _and_ move quickly, you could use immolation to quickly pull the other mobs to the golem's location and then nuke them. So if there is a good spot for immolation - FH is it.
I tried it in CN for a while, but right now sing and OF are more effective. I think it would often depend on the size of the pulls.
I would love to see a higher target cap, if it was 12 or something, i could use this instead of sing.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Ice Knife is really the only other viable Daily, and even then only because it's the biggest single-target burst CW gets. If there's a niche daily that is still somewhat useful, it's Ice Knife. It's most certainly not FI or Maelstrom. Some swear by Ice Storm, but frankly if there's a group troll daily it's Ice Storm.
Ice knife is also seldom used.
So after Sing and OF, it's hard to say what is the next daily. I actually really like immolation, but the target cap is too low for how i run dungeons (but might be effective at a slower pace).
I cannot convince myself while malestorm is even worth experimenting with, it is slow, it does no damage, and the only instance where it was useful, it isn't anymore. I'm so sad, because it looks cool.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I would have to agree that Ice Storm is the "I'm going to be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to the party today" Daily.
And ironically there was ONE whopping location in the game Maelstrom of Chaos was actually useful. The dragon fight in Malabog's Castle on removing Valindra's Choke hold... but apparently this was just a bug, and subsequently "fixed" according to patch notes.
I haven't tried it there yet, but the irony of them making Maelstrom completely useless instead of just mostly useless was not lost on me.
Honestly though I cannot judge MoF Dailys as I have never played one or used one to determine its effectiveness myself.
EDIT: I will have to say though Ice Storm does actually have its place though, it is actually useful in very limited circumstances like the platform in Spellplague during the Aboleth interludes when it removes the invulnerability from the Aboleth Suitors. Or place with a lot of ledges... but mostly it just annoys the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the party when its used. So while prior to the "fix" Maelstrom was mostly useless, but very useful in one specific circumstance, Ice Storm is mostly annoying, but useful in very limited circumstances.
Maelstrom now is just completely useless.
If FI had 15 target cap, and I was MoF, i would absolutely use it over Singularity, all the time. Singu would never be on my bar, only OF and FI.
The only purpose of Singularity is to gather scattered mobs up for aoe. It isn't used for control or damage, so who cares if it crits or not. FI does the only thing that singularity is used for, far, far better than Singularity. It also doesn't interfere with half of the spells that CWs use and it doesn't take 19 years to actually do it's job, it's practically instant.
The only reason FI is bad is 8 target cap. If you are low dps group and only pull 1 pack at a time then actually FI is fine.
I was being sarcastic of course, the only reason i m playing this game is for the high lvl of customization it has. The problem are proelitist dbs that expect a character of a class to do something specific, they are cancer to a game like this. Everyone should have the same chances to use their preferred build, not having to submit to some prestablished bs.
Nobody will tell you anything bad about your gameplay if your DPS, debuffs and CC are on par or superior to the FOTM spec.
I can guarantee you that.
So is your original spec on par with the classic spellstorm mage in clearing CN/MC/VT as fast as possible?
If yes, everybody will praise you and ask you for the spec you using. I got this all time when I PvEed a lot.
You should only worry if what you play performs subpar compared to the FOTM specs you seem to hate.
As for FH specifically, i went in there with Sing and Force yesterday. I think i barely used sing, because sing is useless on golems and everything else died too quickly
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Yeah FH is a fun one to go into just to have fun wrecking mass amounts of mobs at this point.
I've been <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> around in Irdis lately too with what everyone calls PUG parties. Not sure what that actually stands for but I assume it means newbies. I want to finish collecting the Archmage gear so I can get that title. I have Magelord title, which is a good one. But there's just something about having Archmage over your name, that really suits the FR.
Could you please elaborate more fully on this strategy.
Because I have never seen it work. I have attempted it once or twice and it led to a wipe. I have only ever seen the kiting strategy used successfully.
There are players who play together for rp/theme and not for min-maxing clearing the dungeon, so if that's what you want to do, there are players out there who will welcome that. But if you run with the average type of players who want to do the dungeon as quickly as possible so they can move onto the next one, it's only polite to fit in with them, not expect them to waste time on a build that isn't as efficient as the standard. Unless your non-FOTM build is as efficient as standard, in which case, as the guy says above, people will be beating a path to your door to figure out how you're doing it.
The failure is, unfortunately, with the devs, who aren't able to balance all the abilities so they're all equally useful, plus they haven't designed dungeons in such a way that all abilities have a use. And even that's not their fault really, MMOs are so difficult to make it's a miracle any of them get made ever, and Cryptic do pretty well on the whole.
The 'skill' involved has always been timing and rotations of the same 6 or 7 powers. If you see someone deviating from that norm, it isn't because they have some secret skill or have a niche build. It's because they are inept. This holds true for every class in the game, or at least the 5 classes I've played in T2 and beyond.
Increase your gearscore to 15k+, or have an entire team composed of people who really know how to play. I.E. everyone actually knows what power to use when and understands that AoE damage will be absolutely required. (Or, alternatively, a group that can kill the boss so quickly that add's never become a problem.)
It's not so much a strategy as it is the brute force technique when everyone is far above gear score for the dungeon. It's doable otherwise, don't get me wrong, but IMO it's a bigger risk of a wipe when you try it so ultimately the kite method is the 'normal'. Not sure why people pretend like smashing it until it's dead is a strategy, but I think the main reason is epeen stroking.
I agree, I agree, but the trouble is, the variability is there, everywhere except at the top end of players. For most players of this game, probably, most of the abilities (other than those outright bugged) do have uses. The trouble is, the high end of players always seem to "break" a system, however varied it might have been intended, and turn it into "damage is king" soup.
I've seeen it happen in every MMO, and devs consistently underestimate the ability of min-maxers to sniff out boring FOTM **** that everyone eventually uses simply because it is more efficient time-wise to use it.
It's nobody's fault really, and nobody is doing anything bad or wrong, it's just the way it is until and unless developers are able to create much more interesting AI in dungeons more easily (i.e. with the resources they've got).
Another way of looking at it: it is actually solvable, but to solve it as things stand would require more warm bodies in the dev team, working to a higher standard, with better Q&A, etc., etc., to implement waaay more sophisticated AI and waaaay more interesting and complex dungeon crawls. It takes a company with humungous resources and stellar success like Blizzard to even make a good fist of it, and even then, a fairly boring meta still falls out of it all at the high end. And when Blizzard did it, with raids, they found out that 90% of the playerbase didn't even see that clever stuff they'd put so much effort into - so why even bother?
See, there's devs min-maxing their time and resources, and players min-maxing what the devs give them
I think also, you've got to factor in the whole idea of progression and rewards. Why do people do things efficiently? To take less time, so they can do more things efficiently. Why? So they get the high end gear quicker. Why? Well ... There's something a bit wonky about the whole concept of progression being tied to gear grind, it's what drives the meta to time efficiency instead of creating a virtual world together.
Ultimately, these games are hamster-wheels all the way down, and that's ultimately the cause of how boring they eventually get.
All I can really say is that you should go find another game that supports that style of gameplay. Neverwinter is hopelessly cookie cutter, and will remain so forever. This is not Neverwinter Nights. It will never be Neverwinter Nights. There will never be meaningful build/power diversification in this game. Period. Your Paragon determines what rotation/powers you will use.
People will pretend like it's otherwise, but in all seriousness go and look through the builds for each class. Skip the feats section, and go directly to where they describe their rotations/power selections. They are virtually identical if the person has actually played their class. That's just how it is. It's also why I say there are no FOTM builds. Any deviation is the result of GS simplifying content to the point where almost anything can work. (Or they run a premade group with a vastly different style that is terribly outside the norm. Also possible, but usually breaks a character for playing with anyone else.)
The content was entirely designed with only 2 or 3 classes and about a dozen powers in mind. Anything on top of that is filler that doesn't matter but gives the illusion of difficulty depth. If that annoys you, I submit you should learn to stop worrying and love the bomb and get your GS as high as possible as quickly as possible so that you too can ignore dungeon mechanics for large profit.
(And yes, one of the mandatory powers for content clearing is Singularity. Everyone knows and recognizes this. If they claim otherwise you can safely conclude that they are trolling, epeen stroking their GS, or rationalizing away short comings in content design.)
Its not even that in this game.
Honestly its just the way the game really is designed. Since inception do you know what I found myself doing most in this game? And we're talking a good 90% of the time in dungeons since I was just a newbie to them.
Gathering massive amounts of mobs togather and mowing them down with AoEs. Regardless of my build, regardless of what I tried, that was the reality of what I was spending a good 90% of the time doing. Party survival and success generally means I've got to.
Other configurations, while certainly had merits, but you never got any use out of them generally, (We're talking post control power Nerf back towards the beginning). Almost everything else was just situational. Heck even CoI and Magic Missile were shockingly. But at least you do at some point use those during any given dungeon if that's your spec.
Every now and then I'd be on single target damage and debuff, but it was kinda rare comparatively or it would be outside of the normal dungeon crawl up to that point.
And every now and then as an even rarer occurrence, I get to push mobs off cliffs and ledges into Fire or Poison, and choke them, or do some kind of crowd control. But that's just not the norm. It's Crowd Control via massive AoEs.
I spend and have always spent a great deal of time burning down mass waves of mobs repeatedly. And doing the single target damage on the boss when that's called for. That's not my design decision. While I certainly like it just fine, there is indeed a reason why all those alternate styles fall by the wayside. And why all those powers that should have their uses... just don't.
Anything else besides those things?
Well that's the rare part, and then of course you have to take into account your party's annoyance level and try not to do the things that make life difficult on them. (Yes Ice Storm we're talking about you)
Well there was a point in time where there was another alternate path for CWs.
It was the total control mage and even more effective than just burning down mobs. The technique was called Sing-botting, This relied heavily on specific things, Entangle (aka Choke), Shield (popping it or bursting it), Enfeeblement, and Repel.
Literally in one round of doing those you could build your AP all the way up. Then cast, Singularity. Or any one of a number of dailys. and you could do this repeatedly over and over. It meant you never had to use a single nuke outside of Singularity you kept all the mobs off the party, and were basically a total control wizard. Also, there was almost never a time you could not Repel or shove mobs off the edge so Repel and Shield pop were common techniques. Those were generally open, with no invisible walls like there are now in many locations. I imagine Ice Storm would have been popular too in those circumstances.
The Devs saw this as an exploit or making the game too easy, and it was thoroughly nerfed. resulting in exactly what you see today. The Control Wizard is no longer really about control in the classic sense. It's about control through AoE damage.
There were previously alternate paths and playstyles, but one by one they were nerfed until we ended up with only one option.
The current path of the CW is exactly what the Devs intended or wanted. I do not know why the decisions were made, but they were. And now we are where we are.
A bit off topic but it's actually often useful during boss fights. A well timed ice storm will be 10 times more useful than sing in ToS at syndrith. Handy in SP as you said. There are no better choices than OF - ice storm in VT/valindra and the ice knife - ice storm combo is pretty useful in MC/fulmi and OF - ice storm in MC/malabog is also the best choice. Basically it should be on your bar during a well-designed boss encounter which isn't all about singballing an addfest on top of the boss. During trash it's situational. I could very well see myself using it in MC on non controllable pulls like i do in FH but the occasional and rare times you need sing in there makes slotting sing mandatory.
Well my CW is MoF and can confirm this. CWs using the singball only are probably a bit noobish (and this is is an euphemism) but what could you expect from a pug?
While pushing off cliffs was fun, I don't regret it. A few weeks ago, I made a party for PK for quick salvage **** drops to feed my mules and ended up with 5 CWs. That wasn't the kind of party I tried to make but that's what happened. I was expecting 9-10 minutes for a full clear legit run, and instead we needed 10 minutes to reach and kill the first boss, because every effing pull was kept rolling inside that evil black ball forever, and when mobs went down it was only to get pulled and roll even more. Which meant that OF, icy terrain and shard were completely useless. Needless to say that when I convinced everyone not to use sing at all in this well known adds fest dungeon after this singularity disaster it went extremely fast.
I mean, come on, seriously. When I play my CW and when another wizard uses that black hole of pain to make mobs roll above their original location just for the sake of making them rolling and using a daily, locking my shard, my terrain and making of course my OF I just casted completely useless and wasted, I want to bang my head on the desk.
you aggro everything, you kite to the golem, dodge his AOE attack, pop force and laugh while the mobs walk into it.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Everyone was gearing their alts, so maybe they were only like 11k or 12k. I didn't check at all.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I seriously don't recommend that unless you have the gear score to one hit things with it. The entire purpose of that is to keep all the mobs in the GWF melee pile so they don't get out of hand and the GWFs lose agro. Throwing them all over the field where they can't touch them will torque people off like there's no tomorrow.
Especially when the idea is keep everything in one spot so things don't get out of hand. So if you do that you better be one hitting them.
Oppressive Force yes possibly it doesn't move things that terribly far, and things will still run right back to the center, they're just not be able to attack because they're dazed, where they can still be slaughtered, then you can stun them and everyone will still be able to cut them to ribbons in a singular location. and everyone will still be able to focus fire on them.
Ice Storm errm erm no, not unless you have the gear score to one hit everything with it... it will torque off your party like theres no tomorrow and throw everything in every which direction possible... putting everything in 5 directions at once.... unless its a bunch of Rangers who just do it anyway with their own techniques, and don't have to worry about things in a tight group and don't care as they do that too which... annoys the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the party.
I wouldn't even consider Ice Storm in Malabogs, really anywhere like that. It does the one thing you DON'T want it to do. Throw everything in 5-10 directions all over the field. Unlike OF which just gives it a little push... this one makes chaos of things throws things miles away, and in a bad way, not a good one.
I will say one thing though, and agree with you on the MoF technique, I have seen that in action now and it does do what Singularity does and much faster, it is unfortunate that its limited to 8 targets. But for pulling smaller groups of mobs togather it is indeed very effective at it.
Okay, you can do that once. But then you have to build AP again, and that is tough to do when you are always dodging golem AOE (and boss AOE). That was the problem I had.