Second, keep in mind the guys you ran with might have more experienced CWs of their own, and sometimes it's good to heed advice.
Third, there's a place for everything, and sing is important, even as a MoF. Sing is extremely good in many situations as it allows up to 15 mobs to be gathered together and be subjected to shards, steal time, sudden storm and oppressive forces. DoT is less important than CC and preparing mobs for focused AoE.
Fourth, there are many degrees of "fast" and "smooth" clears of a dungeon. For you maybe fast clear means 45 mins without dying, for that very geared other guy might mean 20 mins speed AoE run of everything in sight.
Usually whinning comes from rangers and GWFs because they have fun seeing a lot of big red numbers side by side when mobs are rolling inside a sing. This spell is good, but very situational. There are also times it's a very bad choice and a hindrance, tremendously sowing down the run, especially when there are multiple CWs in the group when mobs have low HPs (which is the case almost everywhere).
So this probably comes from frustrated rangers asking wizards to be on singball duty just for the lulz and not caring at all about the run itself. Sometimes it's just better to kill half of the pull with another daily and wait for the mobs to surround the wizard after 1s to finish it off. Which is why such comments in party chat should be immediately ignored with the players asking for sings only, especially in pugs.
0
Options
silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
This spell is good, but very situational. There are also times it's a very bad choice and a hindrance, tremendously sowing down the run, especially when there are multiple CWs in the group when mobs have low HPs (which is the case almost everywhere).
Well I wouldn't go that far either,
Singularity IS actually the best Daily to use in most circumstances in a party and should be used mostly... but there are limitations on it one has to remember. Like... well.. it doesn't affect Golems or Druegar Riders or things like that. The other Dailys like Oppressive Force and Ice Knife ARE the situational ones, but they are better in some situations.
Generally Singularity is indeed your first choices and always the choice... but the other Dailys that are situational are just that... better in certain situations than Singularity.
I didn't say it was *wrong* to not use Sing, I just said it was weird and unusual. (For runs conducted at reasonable GS's, anyway, not god-like ones).
Well actually when the team plays well singularity isn't required. Nothing more frustrating than a wizard using a singularity when mobs are already grouped. It locks at least half of the spell bar of other wizards. FH is one of the places in which you could totally not use singularity once during a run and still making it smooth and pretty quick, even at low GS. It's probably quicker without that spell if you're the only CW anyway. I'm using it for the second boss and before the final one because I like big pulls and because mobs are spread a bit too much when other wizards use oppressive force, but that's it. OF/ice storm and no singularity are completely valid choices in FH, whatever your GS is. I'm often doing the dungeon in under 15 mins and maybe popped sing twice during the run. Not sure how long it would be with singularities everywhere artificially locking my spellbar.
But you do have to acknowledge that a CW that doesn't use sing for an entire dungeon is a little weird.
If I saw a CW like that, my initial reaction would be that this CW is specced for PVP or something, or has no idea about proper builds. It would definitely raise a red flag.
Not really. There are lots of instances where I don't use Sing once and just as many where I use Sing almost exclusively.
Foundry - Fight Club? (nw-dluqbofu7)
- JailBreak (in development)
Okay, which epic dungeon did you not ever use Sing for when you weren't completely overgeared for it? And not even using it once for the entire dungeon.
Given the Dungeons an 11k GS team is going through, Singularity should be used often and as much as possible. At that GS level Singularity really is the difference between life and death. I would expect to see it used almost as soon as the Action Points popped it up.
But Yes when the party is at higher 16k GS level its not as needed, but still brings all the mobs to one spot where everyone can crush them. But.. no its not as needed at the upper end gear scores.
If I see a MoF CW or WK TR in my party I'll vote kick. I'd also kick a CW that uses Ice Storm.
You are ..... um... not very reasonable. (Had to think of a polite way to put this). MoF CWs are excellent, and WK TRs are not bad either. ANyone that thinks they are is misinformed, ignorant and close minded. Try playing around with some people that use builds other than the "Flavor of the Month" and you might find the game a little more enjoyable.
0
Options
uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
Here's the problem with your response: Either you didn't read my post and comprehend the part where I repeatedly said the run went smoothly and quickly despite the fact I didn't use the power they requested, or you don't care and are of the opinion that all players should be bound to "conventional wisdom" of what is best. Most likely it's a combination of both, your reading comprehension is fail AND you think "the way everybody does it" is the only way to do it right. Either way, I was neither being an idiot nor sucking, since the group did fine and I held my own despite not doing it there way. The most disturbing part is that contrary to what other posters have made clear in the thread, you seem to think it's fine for such groups to grief me by kicking at the end rather than when the dispute arises, if indeed there was any open and clear dispute ( Hard to call someone ranting on voice in a language you don't understand a clear dispute). I can only hope that your good times ingame are as good as the ones I described here
The fact that anyone died in FH kind of proves my point.. That dungeon is beyond easy.
0
Options
inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Singularity is highly situational. Seems a lot of posters here think it's something that it's not.
It is total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for CC. The entire time the animation is playing nothing is CC'd, it's only being grouped up. the last 1.5 seconds of the cast is the only time it CCs anything. Oppressive Force is vastly superior in every single way (damage and cc) with the sole exception being that it pushes mobs away and singularity (very slowly) gathers them up. OF also hits all targets while singularity only affects 15.
Don't get my wrong, when singularity is useful, it's very useful. But it isn't useful every single pull, not by a long shot. There's generally maybe 2-3 places in most dungeons where a well placed singularity speeds things up, otherwise, it slows everything down, especially in groups with more than a CW. Mobs are generally grouped up already and if they aren't they will be the moment a player enters aggro range and they all charge him.
The fact that anyone died in FH kind of proves my point.. That dungeon is beyond easy.
If it's that easy, reliance on a specific move (AS) shouldn't even be an issue. I mean, by your words, it's that EASY.
(beyond easy is what exactly? easy easy? very very very easy? faceroll easy? all of the aforementioned? lol)
Barring really big and stupid pulls, if a player dies in that dungeon, it's that player's fault, period.
This game doesn't use the trinity system wherein if the Tank goes down, it's probably the Healer's fault (or the Tank for doing something stupid). Or when party wipes, it's probably the Tank's or Puller's fault. Developers gave us dodges / some form of dmg mitigation (unstoppable). They expect us to use them.
But it isn't useful every single pull, not by a long shot. There's generally maybe 2-3 places in most dungeons where a well placed singularity speeds things up, otherwise, it slows everything down, especially in groups with more than a CW.
I'd have to partly disagree with this statement.
Having more than 1 CW (or any number of CWs) doesn't lessen AS' utility one bit (exception would be, if the CWs don't know about AS' effect on SS, SotEA, etc).
1. one CW uses Sing
2. one or more uses ST (HV user)
3. all CWs including the Sing caster prepares SotEA
4. AS ends and mobs drop
5. all CWs including caster uses SS / IT (whichever is slotted)
6. all CWs push shard
7. somebody uses ST
8. move on
Total overkill for cc'able packs of mobs but yeah, CWs learn the timing on when to use SS and SotEA after a Sing so the number of CWs in a party is not an issue. If there were any sort of issue, it would be multiple CWs casting AS at the same time but this only happens at the beginning of PUGs, after a pack or two, players can get a feel for chaining instead.
Compact packs are obviously not a good time to use AS but any pack that has more than three cc'able mobs scattered around is a good place for AS. Exception would be if there's going to be a bigger spread out pack after (reserve AS for that one instead) but this would be where multiple CWs would shine since there will be more opportunities to gather scattered mobs.
PS. Saying that AS is "total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for CC" is misleading. AS / EF (tabbed) / FI are to be used in conjunction with other CC skills like ST, IT and partly, SotEA and CoI (tabbed). Specially for IT, would you say that IT is as effective w/o AS as it is w/ AS? That would be absurd. And then there's SS, I don't even have to explain that one lol.
0
Options
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Best PvE CWs I played with (and I did play with most of the best ones in my long months of CW farming) never shied away from sing. You like Oppressive? OK sure, but make sure that it on a group of fully grouped mobs and try to make it so you don't spread them further, but push them on a wall or something. Even better, wait for a CW to sing, then cast CoI or something in sing to maximize damage and EoTs proc chance, and then OF.
But don't just run around doing OFs here and there if mobs are relatively spread. Makes you look bad and DPS-desperate.
Not to mention other class that you see all the time in CN SPECIFICALLY needs sing for increased DPS. Talking about GWFs.
GWFs are your friends, not enemies. Don;t push things away from them if possible.
All in all, dailies are situational, but sing should NEVER be underestimated, even at r10 gear. Keep in mind, your shard, Sudden Storm etc. and other classes abilities function better in grouped mobs. Don't spread them everywhere.
I understand your point, but the way it happened in the first scenario you presented with you not speaking and not following instructions and then arguing about it, I would've kicked too out of frustration.
That's nonsense, there's no such thing as "instructions" in a PUG ferchrissakes. From more experienced Guildies, yes, one might take "instructions", but so far as a PUG is concerned, there is no boss of a PUG, and no one has a right to "instruct" anyone else how to play - UNLESS it's going badly. But according to the OP the PUG went well, so him being kicked is just a piece of idiocy.
MMOs are plagued by morons who read some **** on the forums or hear something from someone then repeat it because they think it makes them sound clever. I repeat, only if a PUG is going BADLY does any sort of "instruction" have a place.
P.S. Inthefade above has it exactly right: Sing is situational. It's impressive and has its place, but it's not a universal tool for every situation. Oppressive Force is indeed the better control power in general, because it actually freezes mobs.
Inthefade above has it exactly right: Sing is situational. It's impressive and has its place, but it's not a universal tool for every situation. Oppressive Force is indeed the better control power in general, because it actually freezes mobs.
OF > AS in terms of control. Pretty obvious stuff. OF applies great cc by itself and applies it instantly. I'm talking about using a skill by ITSELF.
But nobody is saying that AS is the 'be all, end all' go to daily for handling mobs (Unless somebody really did say, then I stand corrected lol). CWs don't use AS to group already compact pack of mobs, neither do they use it by itself to 'effectively cc' a big lump of mobs.
Here it is plain and simple : Arcane Singularity's use is to make every other AoE control power and AoE damage power MORE EFFECTIVE. PERIOD. I mean why would anyone use it by itself, unless you can kill mobs just with AS then sure sure use it but I mean come on...
I'm baffled by posts that say 'other people think AS is a good cc thingy and that's just wrong thinking blah blah blah' when the real reason AS is considered an effective cc move is because it is a SETUP; a PREPARATION; a SUPPORT skill that makes all other AoE ccs better. Simple logic is simple. (I'm just repeating my point over and over lolz)
I only slot AS and OF. AS for when I need it; OF for when mobs can't be cc'ed (using OF's pushing mechanic, you can push mobs together instead of apart) but basically for me, OF is and has always been an 'oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> button' that would prevent me or somebody else from being instagibbed (times when ST is too slow to save me or is on CD / ran out of stamina to teleport and need to push non-cc'able mobs back a bit to get out of reds, etc).
Given the Dungeons an 11k GS team is going through, Singularity should be used often and as much as possible. At that GS level Singularity really is the difference between life and death. I would expect to see it used almost as soon as the Action Points popped it up.
But Yes when the party is at higher 16k GS level its not as needed, but still brings all the mobs to one spot where everyone can crush them. But.. no its not as needed at the upper end gear scores.
15.5k CW reporting in for duty. But seriously, it has nothing to do with GS, i didn't change my playstyle with module 2 and my wizard has been 11.5k for a long time... Most of the times, mobs run to you. That's a "natural" singularity. Using this spell in this case is a pure waste of resources. And in a high GS group it's not something I want to come across.
Now I do use sing myself, it's just depending on the dungeon. I will use it a lot in ToS (lots of ranged mobs), sometimes in karru (on ranged and scattered small groups), almost never in FH (small corridors, lots of immune npcs, making 30 mobs pulls is easy and makes sing irrelevant), one time out of 4 in epic dread vault, Maybe twice a run in VT (and ice storm/OF only during Valindra), and half of the times in SP. I rarely play other dungeons so I don't have fixed rules. I just know when I will have to sing and when it's better not to, and all in all, it's pretty balanced.
Sing is a useful daily, but not the best, although definitely one of the best we have. It's a positioning tool you use when it's optimal to actually move stuff from one location to another. If you're using singularity to make all mobs roll above their original position, congratulations, you have wasted a daily spell.
It's also useful when running with multiple CWs (more than two), because after a couple of shards, it gets messy, and stuff is too much scattered to be efficiently killed, but such groups are neither required nor optimal in any way for most of the content, so this isn't an issue you should encounter frequently.
It's sad to see so many CW players underestimating dailies like Oppressive Force and Ice Storm. Both are useful. Clearly situational, but this is not different from singularity. When you OF on the edge of a group, the whole group moves in one direction, you don't scatter anything, and they will still submissively run to you so that you get another free natural singularity effect afterwards. I also have yet to see anything beating the OF/ice storm combo during the syndrith fight in terms of speed and way to cheese the fight. Ice storm is very useful in FH against golems (when OF will scatter golems no matter what you do), and it's sometimes useful in SP depending on your team and if you do very small pulls and have single target damage issues. I also remember using ice storm frequently and successfully in malabog's castle during boss fights, for what it's worth.
Of course, there is also one reason to use singularity, it's because bad team mates will ruin the initial group and the automatic singularity effect i am talking about. I've seen rangers standing at max range and hitting random stuff or clerics playing the backseat healer's way being a huge strain on the team's control resources and forcing the wizard (me) into the singbot role, because there was no other way to keep things going without it, but it's not an issue you should get as long as everyone is willing to make some efforts and plays the game the right way, and this right way has always been melees on the frontline and casters right behind, everyone standing inside the cleric's blue magic circle of life with wizards tossing various aoes and shards on every mob surrounding the team.
Best PvE CWs I played with (and I did play with most of the best ones in my long months of CW farming) never shied away from sing. You like Oppressive? OK sure, but make sure that it on a group of fully grouped mobs and try to make it so you don't spread them further, but push them on a wall or something. Even better, wait for a CW to sing, then cast CoI or something in sing to maximize damage and EoTs proc chance, and then OF.
But don't just run around doing OFs here and there if mobs are relatively spread. Makes you look bad and DPS-desperate.
Not to mention other class that you see all the time in CN SPECIFICALLY needs sing for increased DPS. Talking about GWFs.
GWFs are your friends, not enemies. Don;t push things away from them if possible.
All in all, dailies are situational, but sing should NEVER be underestimated, even at r10 gear. Keep in mind, your shard, Sudden Storm etc. and other classes abilities function better in grouped mobs. Don't spread them everywhere.
This.
OF drives me up the wall. I go and get everything nice and grouped up on me with come and get it, I have it's aggro and am aoe'ing it down, when the cw decides to blast everything away from me. Worst daily, I hate when it's cast.
OF drives me up the wall. I go and get everything nice and grouped up on me with come and get it, I have it's aggro and am aoe'ing it down, when the cw decides to blast everything away from me. Worst daily, I hate when it's cast.
Afaik most of the GWFs spells if not all have a 5 targets cap so you should have plenty of opportunities running ahead a bit more and pulling 2-3 groups at once. You should also not be doing the wizard's job using come and get it. This spell does no damage and you're just doing what others get to do with bonus damage. Last but not least, a good wizard will use OF without ruinning the GWFs' rotations, while an effing singball with stuff rolling inside for almost 2s will just lock half or more of another wizard's spellbar. If you're doing a standard 2 CWs 1 GWF + 2 other classes run, you better have a good reason to lock your other wizard's spellbar for 2s, and no, pleasing the GWF when he can still hit 5 mobs after OF isn't a good reason.
0
Options
silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Sing is a useful daily, but not the best, although definitely one of the best we have. It's a positioning tool you use when it's optimal to actually move stuff from one location to another. If you're using singularity to make all mobs roll above their original position, congratulations, you have wasted a daily spell. .
Well, I completely disagree, fully believe it is the best... and its not about keeping mobs stunned or away from people or hurting them, other Dailys can do a better job... its about pulling them all into one spot where everyone can tee off on them. While I will not disagree with OF and I use Oppressive Force myself in certain situations,
If I have the choice between the two, and I've got a party of destroyers... its going to be singularity all the time.
...but it can't be used in certain situations and against certain mobs. But pulling all the mobs in to one spot to be crushed no matter who the party is, is going to be a major benefit to it.
0
Options
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
About sing and of. They are situational. Everything spread out, wonderful time for sing.
As the sing end, pop your lantern, st, icy shard, and of. Boom. Everything dies.
All the mobs grouped up already? Of is great.
Also there are times you are way over the target cap and you need of, even if they are spread out (see zombie hallway of death)
Immolation is like sing but better damage, smolder, faster and doesn't mess up skills.... Very good. Problem is target cap 8. If it was cap 20 I'd probably drop sing all together.
That said, this poor guy sounds like he knew what he was doing and these pugs were idiots.
That said, there are times sing is necessary. If I tried to run cn and someone said "I didn't spec sing" I would stop the run and be like dude... You need respec. Lol
About sing and of. They are situational. Everything spread out, wonderful time for sing.
As the sing end, pop your lantern, st, icy shard, and of. Boom. Everything dies.
All the mobs grouped up already? Of is great.
Also there are times you are way over the target cap and you need of, even if they are spread out (see zombie hallway of death)
Immolation is like sing but better damage, smolder, faster and doesn't mess up skills.... Very good. Problem is target cap 8. If it was cap 20 I'd probably drop sing all together.
That said, this poor guy sounds like he knew what he was doing and these pugs were idiots.
That said, there are times sing is necessary. If I tried to run cn and someone said "I didn't spec sing" I would stop the run and be like dude... You need respec. Lol
Lol agreed on all points. There's a time and a place for most Dailies (except Maelstrom of Chaos, which remains shivering in the ghetto of underprivileged Daily Powers, curled up next to Guardian of Faith for warmth). EotS proc + Oppressive Force in a huge cluster of tightly-packed trash = wonderful. Random Oppressive Force = facepalm.
The devs really should have buffed Furious Immolation's target cap all the way up to 15. Why bother making a Singularity-like Daily that is in almost all ways inferior (significantly lower target cap, shorter tether duration, no daze effect without Feat) except that it doesn't share the same bug that causes some very important Powers to miss? It's really unfortunate.
When reading this thread I had the impression that many don't know what FI does, how it works and, most important, how to use it.
Sing is a very, very slow skill, it gathers the mobs very slowly, some of them (like the blademasters at ToS) can even jump out of it.
FI is different, it is much faster, more on point and you have to react faster. Guess this is what annoyed your teammates, although it should be no problem when you casted ST after it. They probably felt betrayed of their usual processes, maybe thought 'oh, what's that stuff, it makes me looking bad'.
I personally use both. when levelling, I got FI when I already had 3 points in sing, and FI with just 1 point deals more damage than sing with 3 points. It has a much faster cast time and animation, mobs are disabled immediatedly. When there are only few adds, I tend to use FI over sing, for bigger groups it's sing.
And I use neither of them at ToS last boss, it's always OF there. Every of these powers has its place, since everyone is superior and inferior at the same time.
There are two different dailies you can use as a CW to be effective. There are two daily slots for CW to put these two dailies into and use. If the two dailies on your bar are not Oppressive Force and Singularity, you are bad and should be kicked when it becomes clear that you are willfully <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the run up for no reason other than your ignorance of game mechanics. (I guess you can use Ice Knife too sometimes, if for some reason you desire a single-target nuke.)
I would only admit that their mistake was waiting until the end to kick you, as they were trolling you for trolling and two wrongs don't make a right.
QED.
(To educate you on why those two dailies are the only two dailies, I will elaborate.)
Furious Immolation is a **** power to use, specifically made to troll people by Cryptic. Why would I say this, you ask? Well, it's simple.
Oppressive Force: Hits infinite targets, applies 3 stacks of High Vizier's debuff, stuns all targets in the AoE, does it's damage to every target within the AoE, can crit.
Singularity: Hits 15 targets, gives everyone the opportunity to use hard hitting DPS on a tight cluster, can crit.
Furious Immolation: Hits 8 targets, only gathers 8 targets, interrupt only, can not crit.
So you see, Singularity is the 'control' option and Oppressive Force is the 'DPS' option. Both do damage, offer control, and can critically strike. Furious Immolation does not control add's in any significant way, hits less targets, and can not critical strike.
So even though it's base damage looks slightly higher, it will always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always do less damage and less control.
So unless you are the type of player who likes controlling things less while doing less damage, you should feat out of Furious Immolation right now and put those three points into anything else. Anything else at all. It doesn't even matter, as long as it's not Furious Immolation.
Even if FI could crit, it would still be worse for no other reason than it's target cap. If you are using a daily to attack 8 add's, WTF are you even thinking? Encounters for a CW can hit more than that.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
The best course of action is to remove all customization posibilities and have the same automatic build for each class; that way the game will be a really fun mmo
The best course of action is to remove all customization posibilities and have the same automatic build for each class; that way the game will be a really fun mmo
You can spend an eternity wishing and waiting for other things to work the way you wish they would, or can you use what already exists to do the job well. FI under performs in every conceivable scenario, for every conceivable build. Wishing it to be decent is fine, but pretending like it already is would be ignorance.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Seriously, spacejew, this post could only be created by someone who hasn't understood the game a bit and also is not willing to.
You write about 3 stacks of HV debuff, well, which HV? MoF usually doesn't use HV, SW is the way to go.
Then what is the point of using an ability with a 15 target cap, when there are only 6 or 7 targets? What exactly does the higher cap grant you?
Just one situation, go to SP, one of these small groups, frogs, gazers, usually accompanied by a seer. Cast FI on them followed by ST, throw a shard into the group. At this point as latest all except of maybe the seer (depending on your dps)should be dead. That's pretty much all the control you need there. And as mentioned by chemboy and I think others before, mobs are controlled in no way while they are gathered by sing, this whole time you just have no CC on them. While FI CCs them immediately, interrupts their AoEs, ST dazes them, still interrupted AoEs, shard interrupts again, and you have CC on them all the time. Not to forget that FI applies smolder to the group and debuffs for the following abilities. In situations like these, I think that FI is superior.
On the other hand, if you like to pull several groups at once there, use sing, because in this case sing is superior because of the higher target cap.
Comments
Usually whinning comes from rangers and GWFs because they have fun seeing a lot of big red numbers side by side when mobs are rolling inside a sing. This spell is good, but very situational. There are also times it's a very bad choice and a hindrance, tremendously sowing down the run, especially when there are multiple CWs in the group when mobs have low HPs (which is the case almost everywhere).
So this probably comes from frustrated rangers asking wizards to be on singball duty just for the lulz and not caring at all about the run itself. Sometimes it's just better to kill half of the pull with another daily and wait for the mobs to surround the wizard after 1s to finish it off. Which is why such comments in party chat should be immediately ignored with the players asking for sings only, especially in pugs.
Well I wouldn't go that far either,
Singularity IS actually the best Daily to use in most circumstances in a party and should be used mostly... but there are limitations on it one has to remember. Like... well.. it doesn't affect Golems or Druegar Riders or things like that. The other Dailys like Oppressive Force and Ice Knife ARE the situational ones, but they are better in some situations.
Generally Singularity is indeed your first choices and always the choice... but the other Dailys that are situational are just that... better in certain situations than Singularity.
Well actually when the team plays well singularity isn't required. Nothing more frustrating than a wizard using a singularity when mobs are already grouped. It locks at least half of the spell bar of other wizards. FH is one of the places in which you could totally not use singularity once during a run and still making it smooth and pretty quick, even at low GS. It's probably quicker without that spell if you're the only CW anyway. I'm using it for the second boss and before the final one because I like big pulls and because mobs are spread a bit too much when other wizards use oppressive force, but that's it. OF/ice storm and no singularity are completely valid choices in FH, whatever your GS is. I'm often doing the dungeon in under 15 mins and maybe popped sing twice during the run. Not sure how long it would be with singularities everywhere artificially locking my spellbar.
A 16k team, yes.
An 11k team, no.
Not really. There are lots of instances where I don't use Sing once and just as many where I use Sing almost exclusively.
- JailBreak (in development)
I would definitely agree with that.
Given the Dungeons an 11k GS team is going through, Singularity should be used often and as much as possible. At that GS level Singularity really is the difference between life and death. I would expect to see it used almost as soon as the Action Points popped it up.
But Yes when the party is at higher 16k GS level its not as needed, but still brings all the mobs to one spot where everyone can crush them. But.. no its not as needed at the upper end gear scores.
You are ..... um... not very reasonable. (Had to think of a polite way to put this). MoF CWs are excellent, and WK TRs are not bad either. ANyone that thinks they are is misinformed, ignorant and close minded. Try playing around with some people that use builds other than the "Flavor of the Month" and you might find the game a little more enjoyable.
The fact that anyone died in FH kind of proves my point.. That dungeon is beyond easy.
It is total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for CC. The entire time the animation is playing nothing is CC'd, it's only being grouped up. the last 1.5 seconds of the cast is the only time it CCs anything. Oppressive Force is vastly superior in every single way (damage and cc) with the sole exception being that it pushes mobs away and singularity (very slowly) gathers them up. OF also hits all targets while singularity only affects 15.
Don't get my wrong, when singularity is useful, it's very useful. But it isn't useful every single pull, not by a long shot. There's generally maybe 2-3 places in most dungeons where a well placed singularity speeds things up, otherwise, it slows everything down, especially in groups with more than a CW. Mobs are generally grouped up already and if they aren't they will be the moment a player enters aggro range and they all charge him.
If it's that easy, reliance on a specific move (AS) shouldn't even be an issue. I mean, by your words, it's that EASY.
(beyond easy is what exactly? easy easy? very very very easy? faceroll easy? all of the aforementioned? lol)
Barring really big and stupid pulls, if a player dies in that dungeon, it's that player's fault, period.
This game doesn't use the trinity system wherein if the Tank goes down, it's probably the Healer's fault (or the Tank for doing something stupid). Or when party wipes, it's probably the Tank's or Puller's fault. Developers gave us dodges / some form of dmg mitigation (unstoppable). They expect us to use them.
I'd have to partly disagree with this statement.
Having more than 1 CW (or any number of CWs) doesn't lessen AS' utility one bit (exception would be, if the CWs don't know about AS' effect on SS, SotEA, etc).
1. one CW uses Sing
2. one or more uses ST (HV user)
3. all CWs including the Sing caster prepares SotEA
4. AS ends and mobs drop
5. all CWs including caster uses SS / IT (whichever is slotted)
6. all CWs push shard
7. somebody uses ST
8. move on
Total overkill for cc'able packs of mobs but yeah, CWs learn the timing on when to use SS and SotEA after a Sing so the number of CWs in a party is not an issue. If there were any sort of issue, it would be multiple CWs casting AS at the same time but this only happens at the beginning of PUGs, after a pack or two, players can get a feel for chaining instead.
Compact packs are obviously not a good time to use AS but any pack that has more than three cc'able mobs scattered around is a good place for AS. Exception would be if there's going to be a bigger spread out pack after (reserve AS for that one instead) but this would be where multiple CWs would shine since there will be more opportunities to gather scattered mobs.
PS. Saying that AS is "total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for CC" is misleading. AS / EF (tabbed) / FI are to be used in conjunction with other CC skills like ST, IT and partly, SotEA and CoI (tabbed). Specially for IT, would you say that IT is as effective w/o AS as it is w/ AS? That would be absurd. And then there's SS, I don't even have to explain that one lol.
But don't just run around doing OFs here and there if mobs are relatively spread. Makes you look bad and DPS-desperate.
Not to mention other class that you see all the time in CN SPECIFICALLY needs sing for increased DPS. Talking about GWFs.
GWFs are your friends, not enemies. Don;t push things away from them if possible.
All in all, dailies are situational, but sing should NEVER be underestimated, even at r10 gear. Keep in mind, your shard, Sudden Storm etc. and other classes abilities function better in grouped mobs. Don't spread them everywhere.
That's nonsense, there's no such thing as "instructions" in a PUG ferchrissakes. From more experienced Guildies, yes, one might take "instructions", but so far as a PUG is concerned, there is no boss of a PUG, and no one has a right to "instruct" anyone else how to play - UNLESS it's going badly. But according to the OP the PUG went well, so him being kicked is just a piece of idiocy.
MMOs are plagued by morons who read some **** on the forums or hear something from someone then repeat it because they think it makes them sound clever. I repeat, only if a PUG is going BADLY does any sort of "instruction" have a place.
P.S. Inthefade above has it exactly right: Sing is situational. It's impressive and has its place, but it's not a universal tool for every situation. Oppressive Force is indeed the better control power in general, because it actually freezes mobs.
OF > AS in terms of control. Pretty obvious stuff. OF applies great cc by itself and applies it instantly. I'm talking about using a skill by ITSELF.
But nobody is saying that AS is the 'be all, end all' go to daily for handling mobs (Unless somebody really did say, then I stand corrected lol). CWs don't use AS to group already compact pack of mobs, neither do they use it by itself to 'effectively cc' a big lump of mobs.
Here it is plain and simple : Arcane Singularity's use is to make every other AoE control power and AoE damage power MORE EFFECTIVE. PERIOD. I mean why would anyone use it by itself, unless you can kill mobs just with AS then sure sure use it but I mean come on...
I'm baffled by posts that say 'other people think AS is a good cc thingy and that's just wrong thinking blah blah blah' when the real reason AS is considered an effective cc move is because it is a SETUP; a PREPARATION; a SUPPORT skill that makes all other AoE ccs better. Simple logic is simple. (I'm just repeating my point over and over lolz)
I only slot AS and OF. AS for when I need it; OF for when mobs can't be cc'ed (using OF's pushing mechanic, you can push mobs together instead of apart) but basically for me, OF is and has always been an 'oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> button' that would prevent me or somebody else from being instagibbed (times when ST is too slow to save me or is on CD / ran out of stamina to teleport and need to push non-cc'able mobs back a bit to get out of reds, etc).
15.5k CW reporting in for duty. But seriously, it has nothing to do with GS, i didn't change my playstyle with module 2 and my wizard has been 11.5k for a long time... Most of the times, mobs run to you. That's a "natural" singularity. Using this spell in this case is a pure waste of resources. And in a high GS group it's not something I want to come across.
Now I do use sing myself, it's just depending on the dungeon. I will use it a lot in ToS (lots of ranged mobs), sometimes in karru (on ranged and scattered small groups), almost never in FH (small corridors, lots of immune npcs, making 30 mobs pulls is easy and makes sing irrelevant), one time out of 4 in epic dread vault, Maybe twice a run in VT (and ice storm/OF only during Valindra), and half of the times in SP. I rarely play other dungeons so I don't have fixed rules. I just know when I will have to sing and when it's better not to, and all in all, it's pretty balanced.
Sing is a useful daily, but not the best, although definitely one of the best we have. It's a positioning tool you use when it's optimal to actually move stuff from one location to another. If you're using singularity to make all mobs roll above their original position, congratulations, you have wasted a daily spell.
It's also useful when running with multiple CWs (more than two), because after a couple of shards, it gets messy, and stuff is too much scattered to be efficiently killed, but such groups are neither required nor optimal in any way for most of the content, so this isn't an issue you should encounter frequently.
It's sad to see so many CW players underestimating dailies like Oppressive Force and Ice Storm. Both are useful. Clearly situational, but this is not different from singularity. When you OF on the edge of a group, the whole group moves in one direction, you don't scatter anything, and they will still submissively run to you so that you get another free natural singularity effect afterwards. I also have yet to see anything beating the OF/ice storm combo during the syndrith fight in terms of speed and way to cheese the fight. Ice storm is very useful in FH against golems (when OF will scatter golems no matter what you do), and it's sometimes useful in SP depending on your team and if you do very small pulls and have single target damage issues. I also remember using ice storm frequently and successfully in malabog's castle during boss fights, for what it's worth.
Of course, there is also one reason to use singularity, it's because bad team mates will ruin the initial group and the automatic singularity effect i am talking about. I've seen rangers standing at max range and hitting random stuff or clerics playing the backseat healer's way being a huge strain on the team's control resources and forcing the wizard (me) into the singbot role, because there was no other way to keep things going without it, but it's not an issue you should get as long as everyone is willing to make some efforts and plays the game the right way, and this right way has always been melees on the frontline and casters right behind, everyone standing inside the cleric's blue magic circle of life with wizards tossing various aoes and shards on every mob surrounding the team.
This.
OF drives me up the wall. I go and get everything nice and grouped up on me with come and get it, I have it's aggro and am aoe'ing it down, when the cw decides to blast everything away from me. Worst daily, I hate when it's cast.
Afaik most of the GWFs spells if not all have a 5 targets cap so you should have plenty of opportunities running ahead a bit more and pulling 2-3 groups at once. You should also not be doing the wizard's job using come and get it. This spell does no damage and you're just doing what others get to do with bonus damage. Last but not least, a good wizard will use OF without ruinning the GWFs' rotations, while an effing singball with stuff rolling inside for almost 2s will just lock half or more of another wizard's spellbar. If you're doing a standard 2 CWs 1 GWF + 2 other classes run, you better have a good reason to lock your other wizard's spellbar for 2s, and no, pleasing the GWF when he can still hit 5 mobs after OF isn't a good reason.
Well, I completely disagree, fully believe it is the best... and its not about keeping mobs stunned or away from people or hurting them, other Dailys can do a better job... its about pulling them all into one spot where everyone can tee off on them. While I will not disagree with OF and I use Oppressive Force myself in certain situations,
If I have the choice between the two, and I've got a party of destroyers... its going to be singularity all the time.
...but it can't be used in certain situations and against certain mobs. But pulling all the mobs in to one spot to be crushed no matter who the party is, is going to be a major benefit to it.
If you vote kick me I will laugh in your face. Your loss, completely.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
As the sing end, pop your lantern, st, icy shard, and of. Boom. Everything dies.
All the mobs grouped up already? Of is great.
Also there are times you are way over the target cap and you need of, even if they are spread out (see zombie hallway of death)
Immolation is like sing but better damage, smolder, faster and doesn't mess up skills.... Very good. Problem is target cap 8. If it was cap 20 I'd probably drop sing all together.
That said, this poor guy sounds like he knew what he was doing and these pugs were idiots.
That said, there are times sing is necessary. If I tried to run cn and someone said "I didn't spec sing" I would stop the run and be like dude... You need respec. Lol
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Lol agreed on all points. There's a time and a place for most Dailies (except Maelstrom of Chaos, which remains shivering in the ghetto of underprivileged Daily Powers, curled up next to Guardian of Faith for warmth). EotS proc + Oppressive Force in a huge cluster of tightly-packed trash = wonderful. Random Oppressive Force = facepalm.
The devs really should have buffed Furious Immolation's target cap all the way up to 15. Why bother making a Singularity-like Daily that is in almost all ways inferior (significantly lower target cap, shorter tether duration, no daze effect without Feat) except that it doesn't share the same bug that causes some very important Powers to miss? It's really unfortunate.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Sing is a very, very slow skill, it gathers the mobs very slowly, some of them (like the blademasters at ToS) can even jump out of it.
FI is different, it is much faster, more on point and you have to react faster. Guess this is what annoyed your teammates, although it should be no problem when you casted ST after it. They probably felt betrayed of their usual processes, maybe thought 'oh, what's that stuff, it makes me looking bad'.
I personally use both. when levelling, I got FI when I already had 3 points in sing, and FI with just 1 point deals more damage than sing with 3 points. It has a much faster cast time and animation, mobs are disabled immediatedly. When there are only few adds, I tend to use FI over sing, for bigger groups it's sing.
And I use neither of them at ToS last boss, it's always OF there. Every of these powers has its place, since everyone is superior and inferior at the same time.
I would only admit that their mistake was waiting until the end to kick you, as they were trolling you for trolling and two wrongs don't make a right.
QED.
(To educate you on why those two dailies are the only two dailies, I will elaborate.)
Furious Immolation is a **** power to use, specifically made to troll people by Cryptic. Why would I say this, you ask? Well, it's simple.
Oppressive Force: Hits infinite targets, applies 3 stacks of High Vizier's debuff, stuns all targets in the AoE, does it's damage to every target within the AoE, can crit.
Singularity: Hits 15 targets, gives everyone the opportunity to use hard hitting DPS on a tight cluster, can crit.
Furious Immolation: Hits 8 targets, only gathers 8 targets, interrupt only, can not crit.
So you see, Singularity is the 'control' option and Oppressive Force is the 'DPS' option. Both do damage, offer control, and can critically strike. Furious Immolation does not control add's in any significant way, hits less targets, and can not critical strike.
So even though it's base damage looks slightly higher, it will always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always do less damage and less control.
So unless you are the type of player who likes controlling things less while doing less damage, you should feat out of Furious Immolation right now and put those three points into anything else. Anything else at all. It doesn't even matter, as long as it's not Furious Immolation.
Even if FI could crit, it would still be worse for no other reason than it's target cap. If you are using a daily to attack 8 add's, WTF are you even thinking? Encounters for a CW can hit more than that.
You can spend an eternity wishing and waiting for other things to work the way you wish they would, or can you use what already exists to do the job well. FI under performs in every conceivable scenario, for every conceivable build. Wishing it to be decent is fine, but pretending like it already is would be ignorance.
You write about 3 stacks of HV debuff, well, which HV? MoF usually doesn't use HV, SW is the way to go.
Then what is the point of using an ability with a 15 target cap, when there are only 6 or 7 targets? What exactly does the higher cap grant you?
Just one situation, go to SP, one of these small groups, frogs, gazers, usually accompanied by a seer. Cast FI on them followed by ST, throw a shard into the group. At this point as latest all except of maybe the seer (depending on your dps)should be dead. That's pretty much all the control you need there. And as mentioned by chemboy and I think others before, mobs are controlled in no way while they are gathered by sing, this whole time you just have no CC on them. While FI CCs them immediately, interrupts their AoEs, ST dazes them, still interrupted AoEs, shard interrupts again, and you have CC on them all the time. Not to forget that FI applies smolder to the group and debuffs for the following abilities. In situations like these, I think that FI is superior.
On the other hand, if you like to pull several groups at once there, use sing, because in this case sing is superior because of the higher target cap.