I've seen moderators carry out personal vendettas against people including PM'd threats against people's ingame accounts. Of course the reply to complaints about this is that the victim should report the abuse, but they can only report it to the mod team, which is the group committing the abuse in the first place. What is set up to stop abuse by the moderators?
I've seen moderators carry out personal vendettas against people including PM'd threats against people's ingame accounts. Of course the reply to complaints about this is that the victim should report the abuse, but they can only report it to the mod team, which is the group committing the abuse in the first place. What is set up to stop abuse by the moderators?
Hence the reason for a support website. Support tickets aren't read by the mod team but actual game staff. Unless the mods are actual game staff personnel themselves...but then again if they were I would hope they did not dislike their paying jobs so much to engage in such behavior...
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Hence the reason for a support website. Support tickets aren't read by the mod team but actual game staff. Unless the mods are actual game staff personnel themselves...but then again if they were I would hope they did not dislike their paying jobs so much to engage in such behavior...
In these cases, the response was always that the correct course of action is to take up the issue with the moderator team/team manager. It is a catch-22 for the victim, because they can only file complaints with the abusive party.
In these cases, the response was always that the correct course of action is to take up the issue with the moderator team/team manager. It is a catch-22 for the victim, because they can only file complaints with the abusive party.
Again, if the moderator was actual game staff, that creates a liability for the company in question. At any rate, the report queue should be accessible by not only any volunteer mods, but also employed game staff as well to prevent exactly that kind of abuse. Also, such reports are usually not allowed to be deleted and/or moderators do not have the necessary permissions to delete any sort of post from the board.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
It would make for a very quite forum for sure, but where do you set the standard? What is a Forum's PH level before it deteriorates?
It would cut the community managers staff needed by half, not just voluntary mods but actual company staff.
Ppl would stop going to the forum and miss out on a lot of info and the company on a lot of feedback.
so what you're saying is that game forums are dominated by users that would prefer to not follow forum guidelines?
it all boils down to respect or being respectful in a place of business. if you're upset about service you receive, there is a way to handle it without making a scene. in a real brick and mortar store, getting loud and violent may get you results, but only because the store manager is trying to get you out of there or to appease you. anything you said in your discussion with the manager is gone the moment you walk out the door. and in some cases, the store manager will stand by policy regardless of how loud you get.
i think Trion is only enforcing their own terms as far as game bans go. it is entirely possible that a number of forum users aren't actually playing the game and are only in the forums to inject it with toxins. the rules don't exist for nothing. granted, some people just don't have an internal filter but if that's the case and you cannot abide by the rules then you should probably not post in the forums of a game that you have either subscribed to or pay to play or have invested substantial time into... especially if forum policy could get your game account banned.
just because you feel like you have to "tell it like it is" doesn't mean it's going to be accepted as feedback.
so what you're saying is that game forums are dominated by users that would prefer to not follow forum guidelines?
No, what I'm saying is that most ppl would not even chance a criticism by fear of being ban, I know I would'nt.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
Negative feedback doesn't violate any rules on any forums I have gone to.
Insulting staff, the game, players who enjoy the game...
That's the stuff which is considered toxic. There are two ways to present dissatisfaction. One is with respect and one is without respect.
Saying "The staff that made this content needs to be fired! The game sucks now and anybody who likes it is stupid." Is in no way constructive and the blunder truth is when people read that all they hear is 'bla bla bla' and have about as much respect for that opinion as the person who wrote it showed; none.
On the other hand you can say "I really want this content seriously reconsidered or adjusted. I don't like it because...and it effects me negatively by...." you are not only putting it in a manner which will get the developers to actually listen but get the other players to listen, respond and explain their points of view.
The difference between constructive criticism and outright toxicity is not hard to understand. It's just a matter of whether or not they want to take the time out to express their views without using any filter. Just because you are on the internet doesn't mean the rules for respect go away.
On our own boards the number one sign that a person is being toxic and knows it is with this useless line:
This thread is going to get locked because it is the truth.
No. That's an excuse to be rude and to not use a filter and an admission of knowing being disrespectful.
Tere's no reason to ever be disrespectful. Even if you want to play hardball that still requires respect because disrespect gets you the door in your face both in person and on the internet.
Negative feedback doesn't violate any rules on any forums I have gone to.
......
On our own boards the number one sign that a person is being toxic and knows it is with this useless line:
This thread is going to get locked because it is the truth.
No. That's an excuse to be rude and to not use a filter and an admission of knowing being disrespectful.
Tere's no reason to ever be disrespectful. Even if you want to play hardball that still requires respect because disrespect gets you the door in your face both in person and on the internet.
Yes, but... without entering into much detail (for obvious reasons...), we both know that certain types of respectful feedback will get your topic closed? Even if its not flame, troll, or bait?
It all comes from the rule set (I'm talking about an ambiguous rule set that has nothing to do with these forums, just to be clear). The rules can be fair, or they might not be fair. They might protect a certain entity, and by enforcing them, you are automatically unfair to the people criticizing that certain entity.
That's about it, IMO. But even if rules are fair, forum toxicity should be a cause for forum bans and nothing more.
A game has rule - you close accounts/ban based on those.
A forum has other rules, and should not have anything in common with the game.
Trolling and bad behavior is something common on the Internet. If the publisher feels the trolls are taking over and become a real issue - he has a very good solution, for which the magazine I worked for ultimately decided:
HIRE, and PAY professional forum moderators. Moderating forums is a JOB, like any others.
Just thought I'd note, that I've been browsing thru the Rift forums out of curiousity since reading this. Overall I'd say the rift forums are no worse than here. It has a lot of complaints about p2w, pvp problems, and rng <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. The difference is the mods here seem far more active, and when a mod gives an "infraction" for a post there it isn't moved to "the can" or something like that, but stays right in the thread, which means that it still generates others getting trolled by it.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
That is why we move posts out of threads.
Posts which get rises out of players are removed because it stops the issue then and there. If those posts remain in the thread it just causes further issues almost endlessly. You guys wouldn't believe how many threads which are necroed because of "troll" posts we missed when the thread was active.
In the early days of these boards we didn't have the lower depths to move questionable posts. The result were some threads getting quite out of hand as the troll comments would just keep dominating the thread topics.
As for some things which are not allowed to be discussed, let me assume the one you are referring to is moderation.
In my years moderating these forums and other forums nobody who violates major rules ever lets it go at that. I have literally had players try to argue that saying other players should go kill themselves shouldn't have resulted in their posts being removed.
The truth of the matter is discussing moderation publicly has a synonym: flamebait.
The moderators on these forums are very open minded and we have a lot of checks and balances within our own team. It is not unheard of for people to contact myself or the other mods and have the actions toned down or reversed entirely. Those who think otherwise haven't really tried or...well...yeah...they are the type of person that prevents moderation discussions from being allowed.
Because what happens when a person makes a public post regards to being moderated is nothing positive.
It can result in just a bunch of complaints about how mean mods are for removing things and that I have the freedom of speech nonsense so I can tell people to go die in a ditch if I want to.
Or the more sensible players step up to bat and tell off the rule breakers. Either way it isn't pretty.
There are just some things which do NOT need to be discussed publicly and it has nothing to do with dictatorship. In life we all know politics and religion to be the big drama creators. Well in forums there are a few others such as moderation.
But even then the rules are there for the communities benefit. We try not to make them stop productive discussions. This thread is a perfect example of a respectful discussion of rules and moderation. As long as it remains that way it will remain open.
It is not unheard of for people to contact myself or the other mods and have the actions toned down or reversed entirely.
This is true. I had a post removed because I made a play on words that was initially taken the wrong way, but it was reinstated because I asked about it privately and politely.
If I had raised a public stink, I don't think it would have gone so well.
Negative feedback doesn't violate any rules on any forums I have gone to.
Insulting staff, the game, players who enjoy the game...
That's the stuff which is considered toxic. There are two ways to present dissatisfaction. One is with respect and one is without respect.
Saying "The staff that made this content needs to be fired! The game sucks now and anybody who likes it is stupid." Is in no way constructive and the blunder truth is when people read that all they hear is 'bla bla bla' and have about as much respect for that opinion as the person who wrote it showed; none.
On the other hand you can say "I really want this content seriously reconsidered or adjusted. I don't like it because...and it effects me negatively by...." you are not only putting it in a manner which will get the developers to actually listen but get the other players to listen, respond and explain their points of view.
The difference between constructive criticism and outright toxicity is not hard to understand. It's just a matter of whether or not they want to take the time out to express their views without using any filter. Just because you are on the internet doesn't mean the rules for respect go away.
On our own boards the number one sign that a person is being toxic and knows it is with this useless line:
This thread is going to get locked because it is the truth.
No. That's an excuse to be rude and to not use a filter and an admission of knowing being disrespectful.
Tere's no reason to ever be disrespectful. Even if you want to play hardball that still requires respect because disrespect gets you the door in your face both in person and on the internet.
It does not matter if their's a chance that my post on a forum get me ban even temporarily in game, due to incomprehansion , misinterpretation, mod is having a bad day, any other human error, I will stop posting the minute this rule is in effect, as I don't want to have to go through an appeal process and waste time/effort even if I'm in the right.
It does not matter if their's a chance that my post on a forum get me ban even temporarily in game, due to incomprehansion , misinterpretation, mod is having a bad day, any other human error, I will stop posting the minute this rule is in effect, as I don't want to have to go through an appeal process and waste time/effort even if I'm in the right.
Hypothetically, how do appeal a ban? You would have to use another forum account, which is itself a bannable offense. Also since you were banned you do not have access to the account to collect information needed to appeal.
Hypothetically, how do appeal a ban? You would have to use another forum account, which is itself a bannable offense. Also since you were banned you do not have access to the account to collect information needed to appeal.
I would imagine you login to your account at the web site, submit a ticket.
@Djarkaan: if you choose to discontinue playing over a rule that is your choice. However, I suspect you are misunderstanding the hypothetical here: you'd have to be a habitual forum troll/hooligan to earn a banning in the first place. In which case, it would probably be healthy for the community at large if you were banned. #justsayin.
I reiterate that, with proper management, I'd be all for the idea. However, companies like Perfect World and Cryptic Studios aren't stupid, either. They will always err on the side of doubt (giving players benefit of the doubt) because of the old axiom that "it's better to allow 10 guilty to go free rather than convict a single innocent".
So this means you'd have to be pretty heavily egregious before any real disciplinary action is taken against you, and I mean really pushing that envelope hard and fast. Which is why I believe if such a program were in place and you found yourself banned from the game: you earned that and deserve that.
Hypothetically, how do appeal a ban? You would have to use another forum account, which is itself a bannable offense. Also since you were banned you do not have access to the account to collect information needed to appeal.
What angrysprite said.
The forums are for public discussions only. If you ever want to privately contact staff then do so through a support ticket.
You not only may not do what you described but it also tacks on two additional broken rules:
Ban Evasion and Discussing Disciplinary Action.
I have played a lot of games and been on a lot of forums. This process is pretty universal. I have never seen a game which did it any other way and as far as I know it goes above policy and is actually forced by privacy laws.
And just an added tidbit, it is not uncommon for us to hear about ban appeals.
If you appeal the ban we are often requested to provide the evidence for the ban. Support does not simply say that the community manager was right in his decision.
The forums are for public discussions only. If you ever want to privately contact staff then do so through a support ticket.
You not only may not do what you described but it also tacks on two additional broken rules:
Ban Evasion and Discussing Disciplinary Action.
I have played a lot of games and been on a lot of forums. This process is pretty universal. I have never seen a game which did it any other way and as far as I know it goes above policy and is actually forced by privacy laws.
And just an added tidbit, it is not uncommon for us to hear about ban appeals.
If you appeal the ban we are often requested to provide the evidence for the ban. Support does not simply say that the community manager was right in his decision.
I believe you are both missing the point. As Rift is banning forum and ingame accounts, there is no way to file an appeal as you have to have an account to file an appeal. A banned player has no account, so any appeal is "ban evasion or posting on behalf of banned players" to paraphrase the relevant terms from here. So any appeal must be from an account in violation of the tos. As you point out, appealing requires both ban evasion and discussion disciplinary action, which are bannable offenses (certainly ban evasion). To appeal a ban, you must commit a bannable offense.
I wasted five million AD promoting the Foundry.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
You are mistaking a ban with deletion. That is completely different.
If your account is banned it still exists. You just may not access it except in order to appeal your ban.
You won't be able to log in the game. You won't be able to log in the forums.
You normally, in my experience, will be able to log on the the website in select areas specifically in order to use the proper channels to appeal a ban.
"Posting on the behalf of a banned account" only exists on forums. If anything contacting the company from a different account will be walled off by privacy laws but they will not punish you for trying privately. It is when people take private matters and insist on making them public as if it was some type of crusade that the hammer will come out.
Short and Simple: you don't go in game or on the forums to appeal bans anyway.
You are mistaking a ban with deletion. That is completely different.
If your account is banned it still exists. You just may not access it except in order to appeal your ban.
How can the player acess the banned account in order to appeal the ban? The evidence needed to appeal is in the account (otherwise it's just claims by the person appealing).
This problem crops when the official channel requires signing into the banned account.
I wasted five million AD promoting the Foundry.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
You do not appeal bans in game or on the forums. The proper channel is through the website.
I can't make this clearer. Never have I encountered a game which makes you appeal bans in game or on the forums. You do so through the website which you normally can still access.
I'm not debating this. This is how it is here and in the dozen or so other MMOs I have played. You are making a completely wrong assumption. There is absolutely no reason to need to access the forums or game in order to appeal a ban.
You do not appeal bans in game or on the forums. The proper channel is through the website.
I can't make this clearer. Never have I encountered a game which makes you appeal bans in game or on the forums. You do so through the website which you normally can still access.
I'm not debating this. This is how it is here and in the dozen or so other MMOs I have played. You are making a completely wrong assumption. There is absolutely no reason to need to access the forums or game in order to appeal a ban.
it's like you've been banned from your local grocery store for coupon duping and you're standing outside asking the customers how you can get inside to talk to the corporate office. someone goes and gets the manager but there's nothing she can do to help you. she gives you the phone number to call the corporate office.
You do not appeal bans in game or on the forums. The proper channel is through the website.
I can't make this clearer. Never have I encountered a game which makes you appeal bans in game or on the forums. You do so through the website which you normally can still access.
I'm not debating this. This is how it is here and in the dozen or so other MMOs I have played. You are making a completely wrong assumption. There is absolutely no reason to need to access the forums or game in order to appeal a ban.
I believe you have not read all my posts in this thread. I pointed out the situation where mods target a player. Providing evidence of this requires being able to provide the moderator messages to the account. Since the account is banned, the player can not sign in to the account to retrieve the evidence needed to appeal the ban.
Mod and employee malfeasance happens in mmos, for example look at the case where Eve devs played the game and passed on ingame resources to their guilds. They did so secretly, until the behavior was found out.
Same thing could happen in this case, how about mass bans for opposing guild members after some trash talk between the guilds? How do you appeal that? Customer service goes to the people who applied the ban and asks them why, the ban-er just says whatever to support it (since they were already acting maliciously towards the member they banned).
Who will customer support believe, the appealer or the employee/mod who did the ban?
it's like you've been banned from your local grocery store for coupon duping and you're standing outside asking the customers how you can get inside to talk to the corporate office. someone goes and gets the manager but there's nothing she can do to help you. she gives you the phone number to call the corporate office.
Who will corporate office believe, the complainer or the store? The store prevents the complainer from going in to the store to retrieve the coupons that the complainer was forced to leave in their cart when they were kicked out, so how does the complainer show that they were not actually duplicate coupons?
I wasted five million AD promoting the Foundry.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
You don't seem to understand how bans are applied. Evidence is needed for bans here and everywhere else.
No evidence. No ban.
You don't need to supply personal messages from staff because those are all recorded, documented and tracked.
If you receive a ban anywhere, especially for misconduct, I promise you there is a file on the conduct which can be consulted when you appeal. If there is no evidence of your guilt they will remove the ban. If there is evidence for you to remain banned you will remain banned.
Now you can never say never...
But it is next to impossible for staff to target any person to get them banned. If you are banned and an appeal doesn't work it means there is evidence that you committed offenses worthy of a ban.
Not a huge fan of the idea, or censorship in genral. But I understand a company must protect it's assets. They have every legal right to do it once you sign the EULA/ToS etc. I find the mods here quite reasonable, even when I am semi trolling. You really do have to step way over that line to get banned though like sprite mentioned. A little playful fun or semi trolling as long as its not intentionally attacking someone is fine though in my mind. But again companies protect their assets.
Most have heard this before, but we tend to judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions. (Fundamental Attribution error). Sometimes the intentions of a post may be actually well meant, but then it comes out brash when actually typed/written. I personally don't take anything gaming too serious, plus im a dude so I forget any type of grievance after a beer.
PS I find that analyzing the PVP quitter penalty, PVP threads most interesting when thinking about that fallacy.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
First, volunteers can not ban anybody. Can not.
Not will not. Can not. Any forum bans are applied by Pinpointerror and formerly Sominator.
As for the initial question, all of our actions are monitored by PWE.
When you complain they look into it. If they don't agree they let us know. And the only thing which has ever come up is not about the actions but in our tone in moderation.
And again, negative feedback is not against the rules. We can only moderate based on the rules.
There are no personal agendas. The entirety of the last bit is more or less complaining we express opinions which may differ from other users but we can not moderate based on opinions. If we did our green title goes away.
If anything we are more lax when players oppose our opinions to avoid claims of bias.
And finally regarding your opinion of calling the developers morons...
That is not something we, the volunteers, have any say in. That ruling is directly from PWE. If you call the developers morons or any other derogatory remark you will be moderated.
That is one of the absolute no gray areas of the rules. It might as well be a commandment from Lord Ao. Non negotiable. That rule is not enforced at our discretion. It is enforced by command.
The developers count as any other users. You have no right to insult any person ever but insulting the developers is something we are told to crush without hesitation.
Calling someone a moron is offensive and should be moderated, calling someone incompetent is a personal statement based on critical analysis of the targets' expertise or skill level. But the later is forbidden on these forum. I use to be a Hockey Referee and for 15 years I let player and coaches say things like : " Ref, you s*ck" or " Ref you can't see sh*t" but if a player or coach said : " Ref you are a F*cking Moron.", I would give them 2 min for unsportsmanlike conduct which could escalate into a Game misconduct, etc, if they kept at it. But as a professional in my chosen field I could accept that someone would view my performance as lack luster and would call me incompetent. The perception given by the mods here is that they think the devs are precious little angels that need to be protected at all cost, so they don't quite from too much criticism of their work or something, but in reality they are hard working professional who should thrive on bettering themselves when their target audience is displeased with their performance.
I believe it's important to note that the context here is that this is something they are willing to do under extreme circumstances, and is an action that certainly should not be taken lightly.
I've had bad days before, heck we all have had bad days, and i think we are all guilty of the occasional "I'm-disgruntled-right-now-and-i-want-to-be-a-pest" moments, we're human and we are not perfect.
I believe what the people over at the Rift Community are looking at is behavior far greater then simply have moments of weakness.
And to be honest, the behavior that they are referring to, is something i personally have not witnessed online in a long LONG time.
I think the Conquer Online Forums back in 2005-2006 was truly toxic and game-suspension-worthy, I haven't seen anything that bad since leaving those forums.
EDIT: But yeah, if the behavior is serious enough, and persists through numerous warnings, then i can definitely agree with the people over at TRION taking those steps.
I think being banned from Rift might be a blessing in disguise. I only played Rift because my oldest son suggested I try the game, knowing that I am a former WoW player. It didn't take long before I recalled why I quit WoW after playing Rift for only a few weeks.
I was invited to join a guild and all of a sudden I am muting the guild chat for the massive amounts of idiots shouting profanity in all caps.
Players in general wanted to duel you being about 10 levels plus or minus than you, then they call you cheat when you win the duel.
Chat moderators or lack of them.
People standing in town naked cybering in public for all the kids to watch.
Mail box filled to max with spammer's Gold Seller Ads.
Meaningless quests that have no end game agenda.
"Go collect 10 fish and I will give you a box with nothing worth while inside it."
"Oh will these fish defeat the evil boss?"
"No I am just hungry and you need a lame task to perform."
Comments
Hence the reason for a support website. Support tickets aren't read by the mod team but actual game staff. Unless the mods are actual game staff personnel themselves...but then again if they were I would hope they did not dislike their paying jobs so much to engage in such behavior...
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Again, if the moderator was actual game staff, that creates a liability for the company in question. At any rate, the report queue should be accessible by not only any volunteer mods, but also employed game staff as well to prevent exactly that kind of abuse. Also, such reports are usually not allowed to be deleted and/or moderators do not have the necessary permissions to delete any sort of post from the board.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
so what you're saying is that game forums are dominated by users that would prefer to not follow forum guidelines?
it all boils down to respect or being respectful in a place of business. if you're upset about service you receive, there is a way to handle it without making a scene. in a real brick and mortar store, getting loud and violent may get you results, but only because the store manager is trying to get you out of there or to appease you. anything you said in your discussion with the manager is gone the moment you walk out the door. and in some cases, the store manager will stand by policy regardless of how loud you get.
i think Trion is only enforcing their own terms as far as game bans go. it is entirely possible that a number of forum users aren't actually playing the game and are only in the forums to inject it with toxins. the rules don't exist for nothing. granted, some people just don't have an internal filter but if that's the case and you cannot abide by the rules then you should probably not post in the forums of a game that you have either subscribed to or pay to play or have invested substantial time into... especially if forum policy could get your game account banned.
just because you feel like you have to "tell it like it is" doesn't mean it's going to be accepted as feedback.
No, what I'm saying is that most ppl would not even chance a criticism by fear of being ban, I know I would'nt.
Insulting staff, the game, players who enjoy the game...
That's the stuff which is considered toxic. There are two ways to present dissatisfaction. One is with respect and one is without respect.
Saying "The staff that made this content needs to be fired! The game sucks now and anybody who likes it is stupid." Is in no way constructive and the blunder truth is when people read that all they hear is 'bla bla bla' and have about as much respect for that opinion as the person who wrote it showed; none.
On the other hand you can say "I really want this content seriously reconsidered or adjusted. I don't like it because...and it effects me negatively by...." you are not only putting it in a manner which will get the developers to actually listen but get the other players to listen, respond and explain their points of view.
The difference between constructive criticism and outright toxicity is not hard to understand. It's just a matter of whether or not they want to take the time out to express their views without using any filter. Just because you are on the internet doesn't mean the rules for respect go away.
On our own boards the number one sign that a person is being toxic and knows it is with this useless line:
This thread is going to get locked because it is the truth.
No. That's an excuse to be rude and to not use a filter and an admission of knowing being disrespectful.
Tere's no reason to ever be disrespectful. Even if you want to play hardball that still requires respect because disrespect gets you the door in your face both in person and on the internet.
Yes, but... without entering into much detail (for obvious reasons...), we both know that certain types of respectful feedback will get your topic closed? Even if its not flame, troll, or bait?
It all comes from the rule set (I'm talking about an ambiguous rule set that has nothing to do with these forums, just to be clear). The rules can be fair, or they might not be fair. They might protect a certain entity, and by enforcing them, you are automatically unfair to the people criticizing that certain entity.
That's about it, IMO. But even if rules are fair, forum toxicity should be a cause for forum bans and nothing more.
A game has rule - you close accounts/ban based on those.
A forum has other rules, and should not have anything in common with the game.
Trolling and bad behavior is something common on the Internet. If the publisher feels the trolls are taking over and become a real issue - he has a very good solution, for which the magazine I worked for ultimately decided:
HIRE, and PAY professional forum moderators. Moderating forums is a JOB, like any others.
Posts which get rises out of players are removed because it stops the issue then and there. If those posts remain in the thread it just causes further issues almost endlessly. You guys wouldn't believe how many threads which are necroed because of "troll" posts we missed when the thread was active.
In the early days of these boards we didn't have the lower depths to move questionable posts. The result were some threads getting quite out of hand as the troll comments would just keep dominating the thread topics.
As for some things which are not allowed to be discussed, let me assume the one you are referring to is moderation.
In my years moderating these forums and other forums nobody who violates major rules ever lets it go at that. I have literally had players try to argue that saying other players should go kill themselves shouldn't have resulted in their posts being removed.
The truth of the matter is discussing moderation publicly has a synonym: flamebait.
The moderators on these forums are very open minded and we have a lot of checks and balances within our own team. It is not unheard of for people to contact myself or the other mods and have the actions toned down or reversed entirely. Those who think otherwise haven't really tried or...well...yeah...they are the type of person that prevents moderation discussions from being allowed.
Because what happens when a person makes a public post regards to being moderated is nothing positive.
It can result in just a bunch of complaints about how mean mods are for removing things and that I have the freedom of speech nonsense so I can tell people to go die in a ditch if I want to.
Or the more sensible players step up to bat and tell off the rule breakers. Either way it isn't pretty.
There are just some things which do NOT need to be discussed publicly and it has nothing to do with dictatorship. In life we all know politics and religion to be the big drama creators. Well in forums there are a few others such as moderation.
But even then the rules are there for the communities benefit. We try not to make them stop productive discussions. This thread is a perfect example of a respectful discussion of rules and moderation. As long as it remains that way it will remain open.
This is true. I had a post removed because I made a play on words that was initially taken the wrong way, but it was reinstated because I asked about it privately and politely.
If I had raised a public stink, I don't think it would have gone so well.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
It does not matter if their's a chance that my post on a forum get me ban even temporarily in game, due to incomprehansion , misinterpretation, mod is having a bad day, any other human error, I will stop posting the minute this rule is in effect, as I don't want to have to go through an appeal process and waste time/effort even if I'm in the right.
I would imagine you login to your account at the web site, submit a ticket.
@Djarkaan: if you choose to discontinue playing over a rule that is your choice. However, I suspect you are misunderstanding the hypothetical here: you'd have to be a habitual forum troll/hooligan to earn a banning in the first place. In which case, it would probably be healthy for the community at large if you were banned. #justsayin.
I reiterate that, with proper management, I'd be all for the idea. However, companies like Perfect World and Cryptic Studios aren't stupid, either. They will always err on the side of doubt (giving players benefit of the doubt) because of the old axiom that "it's better to allow 10 guilty to go free rather than convict a single innocent".
So this means you'd have to be pretty heavily egregious before any real disciplinary action is taken against you, and I mean really pushing that envelope hard and fast. Which is why I believe if such a program were in place and you found yourself banned from the game: you earned that and deserve that.
-shrug-
What angrysprite said.
The forums are for public discussions only. If you ever want to privately contact staff then do so through a support ticket.
You not only may not do what you described but it also tacks on two additional broken rules:
Ban Evasion and Discussing Disciplinary Action.
I have played a lot of games and been on a lot of forums. This process is pretty universal. I have never seen a game which did it any other way and as far as I know it goes above policy and is actually forced by privacy laws.
And just an added tidbit, it is not uncommon for us to hear about ban appeals.
If you appeal the ban we are often requested to provide the evidence for the ban. Support does not simply say that the community manager was right in his decision.
If your account is banned it still exists. You just may not access it except in order to appeal your ban.
You won't be able to log in the game. You won't be able to log in the forums.
You normally, in my experience, will be able to log on the the website in select areas specifically in order to use the proper channels to appeal a ban.
"Posting on the behalf of a banned account" only exists on forums. If anything contacting the company from a different account will be walled off by privacy laws but they will not punish you for trying privately. It is when people take private matters and insist on making them public as if it was some type of crusade that the hammer will come out.
Short and Simple: you don't go in game or on the forums to appeal bans anyway.
This problem crops when the official channel requires signing into the banned account.
I can't make this clearer. Never have I encountered a game which makes you appeal bans in game or on the forums. You do so through the website which you normally can still access.
I'm not debating this. This is how it is here and in the dozen or so other MMOs I have played. You are making a completely wrong assumption. There is absolutely no reason to need to access the forums or game in order to appeal a ban.
it's like you've been banned from your local grocery store for coupon duping and you're standing outside asking the customers how you can get inside to talk to the corporate office. someone goes and gets the manager but there's nothing she can do to help you. she gives you the phone number to call the corporate office.
I believe you have not read all my posts in this thread. I pointed out the situation where mods target a player. Providing evidence of this requires being able to provide the moderator messages to the account. Since the account is banned, the player can not sign in to the account to retrieve the evidence needed to appeal the ban.
Mod and employee malfeasance happens in mmos, for example look at the case where Eve devs played the game and passed on ingame resources to their guilds. They did so secretly, until the behavior was found out.
Same thing could happen in this case, how about mass bans for opposing guild members after some trash talk between the guilds? How do you appeal that? Customer service goes to the people who applied the ban and asks them why, the ban-er just says whatever to support it (since they were already acting maliciously towards the member they banned).
Who will customer support believe, the appealer or the employee/mod who did the ban?
No evidence. No ban.
You don't need to supply personal messages from staff because those are all recorded, documented and tracked.
If you receive a ban anywhere, especially for misconduct, I promise you there is a file on the conduct which can be consulted when you appeal. If there is no evidence of your guilt they will remove the ban. If there is evidence for you to remain banned you will remain banned.
Now you can never say never...
But it is next to impossible for staff to target any person to get them banned. If you are banned and an appeal doesn't work it means there is evidence that you committed offenses worthy of a ban.
Most have heard this before, but we tend to judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions. (Fundamental Attribution error). Sometimes the intentions of a post may be actually well meant, but then it comes out brash when actually typed/written. I personally don't take anything gaming too serious, plus im a dude so I forget any type of grievance after a beer.
PS I find that analyzing the PVP quitter penalty, PVP threads most interesting when thinking about that fallacy.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Not will not. Can not. Any forum bans are applied by Pinpointerror and formerly Sominator.
As for the initial question, all of our actions are monitored by PWE.
When you complain they look into it. If they don't agree they let us know. And the only thing which has ever come up is not about the actions but in our tone in moderation.
And again, negative feedback is not against the rules. We can only moderate based on the rules.
There are no personal agendas. The entirety of the last bit is more or less complaining we express opinions which may differ from other users but we can not moderate based on opinions. If we did our green title goes away.
If anything we are more lax when players oppose our opinions to avoid claims of bias.
And finally regarding your opinion of calling the developers morons...
That is not something we, the volunteers, have any say in. That ruling is directly from PWE. If you call the developers morons or any other derogatory remark you will be moderated.
That is one of the absolute no gray areas of the rules. It might as well be a commandment from Lord Ao. Non negotiable. That rule is not enforced at our discretion. It is enforced by command.
The developers count as any other users. You have no right to insult any person ever but insulting the developers is something we are told to crush without hesitation.
I've had bad days before, heck we all have had bad days, and i think we are all guilty of the occasional "I'm-disgruntled-right-now-and-i-want-to-be-a-pest" moments, we're human and we are not perfect.
I believe what the people over at the Rift Community are looking at is behavior far greater then simply have moments of weakness.
And to be honest, the behavior that they are referring to, is something i personally have not witnessed online in a long LONG time.
I think the Conquer Online Forums back in 2005-2006 was truly toxic and game-suspension-worthy, I haven't seen anything that bad since leaving those forums.
EDIT: But yeah, if the behavior is serious enough, and persists through numerous warnings, then i can definitely agree with the people over at TRION taking those steps.
"Oh will these fish defeat the evil boss?"
"No I am just hungry and you need a lame task to perform."
Gosh, I don't miss either one of those games.