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RIFT willing to ban players for toxic forum behavior
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/27/rift-willing-to-ban-players-for-toxic-forum-behavior/
focusing specifically on this article, what are your opinions about it?
please keep in mind that the discussion of THIS forum's rules and moderation is against the forum rules of conduct.
Official game forums have a reputation for being hopelessly toxic. It makes a certain amount of sense, too; being an utter jerk in the forums usually means that at worst you'll be banned from those forums. So RIFT is taking things up to the next level. If you choose to be persistently awful in the forums, you can eventually have your ability to play the game suspended. Readers with a long memory will note that Sony Online Entertainment has discussed similar possibilities in the past, hoping to encourage a more positive and engaging atmosphere all around.
focusing specifically on this article, what are your opinions about it?
please keep in mind that the discussion of THIS forum's rules and moderation is against the forum rules of conduct.
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In regards to these forums, I think moderation is handled within reason, but if you continuously break the rules, then you should expect repercussions. I think most veteran MMO players understand that and will make a choice to fall in line or be a maverick. While this community doesn't have the same hardcore aggressive behavior that I have seen on other MMO forums, I think that permitting it will tend to push people away from the forum usage and perhaps the game. Yet, I think in-game and especially during PvP matches, there will be some trash talking and rude behavior that will rub people the wrong way.
Lastly, the question remains should repeated inappropriate behavior on the forums lead to in-game bans? The short answer is maybe, but if a publisher wants to use it as a deterrent, there is no stopping them from doing so. Make it clear in the first place of how to expect and be consistent with the punishment.
I'm curious have you ever been on the ddo forums? I'm wondering how the rift forums compare to there in your opinion as that forum is probably one of the most toxic I've ever seen.
That's bad, there are quite a few outright insults to the company and it's dev's posted there regularly. If the Rift forums are that bad it may be needed to go for draconian measures then, but they should be tempered with a hard look of what's causing the players to get so angry. You always get some trolls on a forum, but to get a forum to that level of toxicity something is going wrong imo because that only happens when you get a lot of players who care about the game very angry about the games direction. So if you go with a draconian measure and don't do a hard evaluation you are just going to bleed your own players slowly away and if the game has that many problems new players likely won't fill that gap.
Depends on their forums rules.
Is criticism allowed? Even harsh one? Or is it considered against the rules...
How would they define trolling? Would they classify as a troll a person that just responds in kind to Internet morons?
What is "positive atmosphere"? Positive for whom? For myself, as an example, positive atmosphere would mean constant relationship with devs and all criticism allowed.
And stuff like this...
Because if they stop banning people from the game basically based on the fact that those people disagree with certain game/forum policies and are openly vocal about this (which they should!), then they are just applying censorship as their means to shape the environment to better suit their own goals, without any regards to consumer-producer relationship.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
i think there is a right way and a wrong way to handle consumer issues having been on both sides of the fence. i can understand someone being frustrated, but as a customer service agent, part of your job is to reduce the frustration and exude confidence so they can feel confident that you can and will resolve their issue. if the consumer is under contract, things may be a little different than someone just walking into a retail outlet. but wreaking havoc to get your point across is akin to a child having a temper tantrum in the middle of a grocery store because his mom won't buy him a candy bar. most people won't stand for that kind of behavior. it is counter productive.
if you're trying to convince someone to listen to your ideas and/or feedback, do you think that insulting them is going to make them want to listen to you? it is possible to offer negative feedback in the way of a constructive discussion:
"hey i saw your spreadsheet you submitted last week and i think the section on quarterly review is spot on, but perhaps the annual section needs work. maybe we can go over that later?"
if you were a supervisor in a company, how long do you think you'd remain as a supervisor if you were insulting or patronizing in your feedback?
"gosh, tom... we couldn't use a lick of your work because it all looks like it was done by a bunch of three-year olds. why haven't we fired you yet?"
yet as the article states, official forums are usually a pretty caustic arena. some of that may be due to the inexperience of the individuals giving the feedback. if you want to suggest or influence someone to make changes, you first have to accept the fact that your feedback may not be utilized. then you have to provide it in a way that it will be heard. there really is no other way. this communication isn't like a fight with your brother where you can call him a series of names that i cannot write here and tomorrow everything will be fine, like nothing ever happened. these are businesses these players are dealing with and there is no room for emotional outbursts in business.
so, in my opinion, i think the possibility of game bans for continued bad forum behavior is warranted. given a number of chances to correct your behavior, i think it's totally fair.
As ever, the extremes are to be avoided. Over-moderation and bleaching out of all criticism leads to a bit of a militant feel. If the forums are all "we salute the glorious leader and his wonderful haircut", and nothing of substance, that will drive people away, also.
The truth often lies somewhere in the middle, it's a non-trivial judgement call.
The cynical part of me wants to say "they're MMO players, therefore they rage". That's a bit of a facetious response, but there's a germ of truth in it.
However, obviously, if there is a fairly widespread outcry with actual substance as its cause, then the developer and publisher need to take a long hard look at their plans and decide how cost and benefit for any big changes of policy (or lacks thereof) stack up.
I suppose the moral is that it's never that simple. Annoyingly.
However, I think an important factor is the F2P model. If I wanted to be a jerk on the forum, I would simply create a new account. That way I can keep my game-account seperate from the forum-account, so if I get banned from the forums, I would still have my game-account. The only way to get rid of both is by banning the IP, but there are easy ways to get around that too. So in the end, banning people in a F2P-game is somewhat pointless, sadly.
There are trolls who don't intend to be trolls (I've had one post removed because it came-off that way, when I was simply very, VERY passionate about the subject). Part of the problem is also our written communication abilities - it's a lot more difficult to properly and accurately communicate what you want to communicate in writing than it is vocally or face-to-face. In writing you have zero control over how your words will be perceived, no body-language, no vocal inflection to give hints of your meaning, etc.
I think this idea of game-banning persistently bad forum behavior is more to keep the honest-honest (in a paraphrase). In other words: To help those who might be passionate about something stop, take stock of how they're communicating themselves, and perhaps take a breath and work on their written communication skills.
As for the really bad offenders, then the comment I quote above applies. I've never been to the Rift forums or game site, etc. I'm sure the threshold for game-banning someone is pretty high, but once a player has reached that threshold they've surely worked to earn the banning.
No matter how passionate or frustrated we might be over any subject, sugar always gets a better response than vinegar. It's really as simple as that. The problem is that if you pour enough vinegar into sugar-water it will poison the sugar-water, frictional comments will beget frictional comments from others who might not normally comment that way.
Without knowing details or having actual experience with the subject matter of the OP and Massively article, on the face of it I think it's a good idea. If it's come to the point where a company has to even consider such measures, things must be pretty bad in a dire sort of way.
And as others have said, given that we are talking about F2P games, it is not exactly hard to create alt accounts...
Actually, in a consumer-producer relationship, yes, it is. You'd be surprised how efficient it is when you can make yourself hear well enough with some anger in your voice. One personal example comes to my mind. A few years ago, a security guard was willing to inspect me in a supermarket. Of course, I did nothing wrong, and knew it was consequently completely illegal (in my country). I've started to state this publicly, in an angry manner, said something like "fascist practices" or something like that; needless to say someone came quickly to calm me down, and I left the place with free groceries to make me stfu.
When you're a consumer, the best way to get what you want is to generate anger among other customers. Of course, companies don't like that because it probably means in a way less profits. Gaming companies aren't different, but the difference is that since servers are private, they can censor you because it's their bandwith/HDD space. Some companies are a little smarter, and just set a rule like "be polite, respectful and positive", something angry customers aren't (something most people can't be when they're mad), to be able to say they don't use censorship but still hide/lock/delete negative thoughts about the product.
It has really nothing to do with game developers not listening to negative feedback; they do read it, it's their job, but allowing negative feedback means you must be ready to make changes to your game, because this negative feedback may spread among the customer base, and too many angry customers kinda forces you to listen to it and act accordingly.
I'm a backer of Star Citizen. The game forums there are completely different from the RIFT ones, it seems. There, as long as you respect people, you can say some addition/system is barely good enough for the garbage bin, that some idea is a PoS, the thread won't get locked (as long as you say why and that's it's not completely ridiculous), because the community managers and mods know that's the way many people express negative feelings about something. Of course the developpers are eagerly waiting for feedback, do listen to it, and aren't running after a comfortable profit margin for the shareholders - there are no shareholders to fire the CEO, and they just want to make the best possible game they can.
I don't play RIFT, but I suspect they pushed the profits goals so far that something is really wrong with the game (be it low quality kitbashed content, cash shop issues, or a new cash making system) and leading to some sort of customer revolt on their forums they're now trying to put an end to.
every phone support position i've ever held, i was told from day one that if anyone uses profanity on your call, you are authorized to disconnect the call. raising your voice and getting angry doesn't inspire people to want to help you. most of the time, the people that you are getting angry with are only representatives doing their jobs and have nothing to do with the reasons as to why you are angry.
it is not constructive. issues can be resolved without taking your frustration out on another person. or in this case, blasting an entire company or the dev team on their official forums. if one were to present their frustrations in a calm, respectful, constructive and professional manner, then they are far more likely to be considered than if one were to do the complete opposite. it might not promote the kind of "lynch mob" mentality that some users seem to rally behind, but you can't really scare a company into making changes that way.
This absolutely. A radical decision like this seems to hide personal faults/misjudgments to some degree in many cases. A well managed game shouldn't be forced into this.
This. Always this. I have (almost) *ALWAYS* received excellent support from anyone and everyone, including Perfect World Entertainment and Cryptic. And when I say EXCELLENT support I am choosing that word carefully and intentionally.
Here is my secret: No matter how passionate I am about my problem, I always try to convey that I am not taking the problem too seriously, that I know the Support people are very busy, that I am thankful and appreciative of their taking the time to look at my issue, and finally: stating that I understand if they are unable to help me or solve my problem. And by always communicating my plight in this manner I have found Support representatives often seem to put in an extra effort to help me out.
In fact I experienced this just this last week from PWE support about reclaiming my Spider Mount on one of my older characters. They went into my account and found the problem - quickly. Boom, problem solved within a couple days. It simply requires some patience and politeness.
As for the RIFT issue, I've said before and I'll say it again: I think the very idea of attaching a Forum Ban to a Game Ban is a great idea, provided there are enough safety mechanisms and an appeals process in-place. Because if it comes to the point where you are banned from the game because of how you act in the forums: you've earned everything you got.
To be honest, I would have to say No, all this means is if you Annoy a CM enough they can get your account banned and for what because they want to voice there opinon?
Most of the main issues faced on forums are because Customer support/Account Support/ No Valid GMS etc Politically Speaking Wont clean up there own back yard and the only place to try and raise awareness of this is via Forums, even though we may all agree not much can be done here,
Informing People about Hackers/Scammers - Not allowed and your post is deleted.
Asking for Help when your Ticket has been awaiting a response for days/weeks (Yes Weeks sad i know!)
Submitting a GM ticket and waiting up to 5 hours for the GM to move you /Unstuck you when all other Commands Failed
Bug reports which go unfixed week after week, month after month etc
Posts to Developers which go unanswered and yet funny enough 99% of CM posts Get answered by Devs/Producers
If you were to ban people who are angry at the situation forums would be a quiet place, #
That is a bit off topic. Every person has an opinion of everything. The difference is whether those opinions cause them to moderate and it is something we strive here not to act upon. That is what it means to be a moderator. The only requirement is to be neutral in moderation.
However I will echo sentiments repeatedly stated here. There is a huge difference between being constructive and being outright toxic.
And while passion certainly blur the lines even those cases can normally be picked up. Especially by passionate players like yourselves.
Taking a deep breath and a step back as well as deciding a direction and goal for your feedback helps a lot. The main problem with passionate posts is they dwell so much on the emotions that caused them to post that they end up posting about their emotions rather than the issues or what could improve their experience. It is always best to try to separate the emotions from feedback as it helps give posts direction.
However passionate posting doesn't get you banned here and I am sure not there. Repeatedly ignoring the requests to take a step back and get things on track however....well that depends on the specific situation.
I agree that it should not be taken lightly to hand out game bans based on forum behavior and should really take a lot to get this kind of ban to happen. Even though I think a person should show a really strong and solid pattern of bad behavior to get banned, I do completely agree that players should be held responsible for how they act on any official platform (forums, wiki, in-game) and extending the consequence of a ban to include behavior in the forums would help out a bit with keeping the "trolling" and negative elements down.
I was happy to hear when SOE was doing this for their forums and glad to hear that players could no longer hide behind their names in the forums while keeping the privilege of playing the associated game(s) after obvious attempts to create a hostile environment in the forums.
i guess it will get more quiet on forums yes, i wouldn`t make posts anymore i think if it was possible.
so there goes a lot of good advice ;p
It would make for a very quite forum for sure, but where do you set the standard? What is a Forum's PH level before it deteriorates?
It would cut the community managers staff needed by half, not just voluntary mods but actual company staff.
Ppl would stop going to the forum and miss out on a lot of info and the company on a lot of feedback.