Not participating in an activity you signed up for by joining the pvp queue does put you at fault be it by leaving or sitting at a camp fire. So in this case yes we are judging then that their fun is more important than yours. Learn how to lose graciously at times. No one wins every match.
One can lose graciously but one can also win horribly. I for one find it no longer fun once the match is 5v3 (or less) in my favor. What's the point? Where's the challenge? I already know that my team is going to win so stomping the remaining members of the opposing team over and over becomes nothing more then an exercise in griefing in my opinion. Once a match becomes lopsided in my favor I offer to either trade points or if the rest of my team is unwilling to trade points then I simply state that the match is unfair so I will no longer attack anyone unless attacked first thus making an attempt to even the odds.
I have no problem losing. But I have a problem losing to jackholes that think its funny to grief others. Yes, I signed up for PvP, but I signed up for 5v5 so once that is no longer the case I find no reason to be expected to continue abiding to some unwritten rules. There is no rules stating that anyone should continue fighting a pointless fight. Even the devs have pretty much agreed with this since there will be no penalty for leaving after the first two members of your team quit.
Sorry, I must have overread the post where they said, that the machmaking system was fixed. I really thought, that they will implement this without matchmaking, wait, they do, my bad, rant on.
Unless the matchmaking prevents premade vs pug matches, this "penalty" is a totally stupid change.
You first make a decent matchmaking for both types of PvP, then you put penalties to leavers.
Else, i want a extra-penalty for premades facing pugs. Like reduced glory gain if the party is formed before queuing, and extra-punishment for premade leavers.
We get that? If yes, i agree with the penalties. Else, it's just bashing the puggers who already have to stand the many premades going pug for easy glory farm, who also quit altogether when they find a pug too hard to beat.
And it is not that hard. Just make 1 matchmaking queue allowing Group queue, and one that forces people to be in no Group to queue.
Is it that hard to do, along with the ranking system?
And personal behaviour means nothing. I too, when the enemy is losing badly, usually stop fighting or let the enemy cap-trade while talking a bit, or ask for 1v1s exc...
Everyone does that? No. I see many, too many people, instead, who keep swarming enemies even in 2v5 or 3v5 situations, or spawn camping a team they already crushed. You can keep fighting, but what is the meaning? To keep getting swarmed and erased by a team of 5 fully geared enemies, when your 8-10k GS mates get slaughtered even faster? I can't count the times i just went down when i was in a 3 men team or in a 2 men team, just to find the enemy camping our spawn, or just to have the Whole enemy group following me like rabid dogs, through the Whole map.
Forcing player to just offer themselves to these guys is simply idiotic. So i just hope the matchmaking is really THAT good, since we get these penalties.
Such a broken record syndrome going on with the Elo Matchmaking.
It's being implemented. Saying that you are justified in leaving because you end up with bad teammates or against impossible to beat enemies is an issue now. It is far less likely once a true matchmaking system is implemented.
Discrediting the implementation due to the current matchmaking system is just unrealistic. You can argue we don't know how effective the new one will be yet but using your current experience with matchmaking is a bit moot.
But we know almost nothing about how the new matchmaking will work, while now we know for sure how people will be forced to be cannon fodder for the premades that are regulary going all organized against pugs for an easy win. Will the ELO system prevent premade vs pugs or half-premade vs pugs?
Also: what does it means that you can't queue for 30 mins?
Let's say: the premade or half premade is losing, and they decide to quit (i've seen it happen more than one time). The first 2 get a penalty. The last 3, nothing. Then, one of the last 3 reform the premade and go queue. Now, the 2 with penalties get invited without the need of a queue, and it's another player then making the Group queue.
On the other hand, the pugger who get roflstomped by premades regulary, can't quit, cause the only way he has to go PvP is the queue.
Need separate matchmaking for premades and another one that forces people to queue alone.
This idea is just backwards. Instead of forcing people to stay, we should make them want to stay. This doesn't even address the issue because people can still stay at spawn and doesn't really solve anything because 10 people are sitting around jumping around on mounts.
Also what about people getting kicked? If I AFk for a couple of minutes for whatever real life reason, I'm kicked out of the match? To top it off, my team is now stuck on a 4 v 5 with no chance of winning because the system doesn't allow that person who got kicked to be replaced...
If this idea ends up going live, you're just going to have a bunch of players running on mounts since they have no incentive to continue playing.
I don't think leaver penalties are meant to force people to stay. I think they're meant to deter quitters from joining PvP in the first place.
So if this change makes you want to quit PvP, hooray! It's working as intended.
See if it was that simple I would say this is great! But it isn't that simple and isn't that great. I want to stay and do stay in matches where my pug team quits... I will find 1v1 or place tag with the team if they won't 1v1. BUT I find all too ofte that I get discoed from a match and come back to me being booted. Now I get the quitter tag? F'that!
Guild fight night.. can't do that now cause if we quit the match cause we didn't get the other team, 40% of the teams now have quitter tags! F'that!
Two cases of us wanting to actually play PvP and still getting the quitter tag. A big old F'that!
Yeah overall the quitter penalty feels premature in so many areas and probably was installed only because a shortsighted minority is unable to see the real issues.
I especially agree with pando83 that the matchmaking system has to be severely tested before you even think about penalties. And because of the lack of participation on the preview server this can only be evaluated once the matchmaking is live for a couple weeks or even months.
Then there's still the queue bugs.
Then you should allow premades to challenge premades (a separate queue is a great idea btw.)
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penalties
I can't be the other way round.
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cenobite451Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 87
See if it was that simple I would say this is great! But it isn't that simple and isn't that great. I want to stay and do stay in matches where my pug team quits... I will find 1v1 or place tag with the team if they won't 1v1. BUT I find all too ofte that I get discoed from a match and come back to me being booted. Now I get the quitter tag? F'that!
Guild fight night.. can't do that now cause if we quit the match cause we didn't get the other team, 40% of the teams now have quitter tags! F'that!
Two cases of us wanting to actually play PvP and still getting the quitter tag. A big old F'that!
Didn't they say something about not getting the penalty if you're disconnected but manage to return? (Which also implies that it will be possible to return without being booted, which is great.)
As for the fight night thing... yeah, that'd be a problem - but I have to imagine that trying to do something like that was already a huge pain in the butt. Hopefully they'll get around to implementing some kind of challenge system, sooner rather than later...
I don't think leaver penalties are meant to force people to stay. I think they're meant to deter quitters from joining PvP in the first place.
So if this change makes you want to quit PvP, hooray! It's working as intended.
I never quit a match. Yet these penalties put ahead of the true problems of PvP, really make PvP less attractive. So i'd say that if it makes even non-quitters want to stay away from PvP, it's a fail.
Quite simply, as i wrote above, it is put ahead of the real problems, which seem to be left out.
For example: care about fixing the premade vs pug issue before punishing quitters?
And right now, we don't know if the new matchmaking will address thise issues. Yet, we already know we will get punishments for the ones who quit.
I want the ranking for matchmaking, but i also want premades to be forced to play against premades, and not be allowed to go fully organized and geared against random pugs, just to get easy glory.
Quitters ruin the fun, people say. I say premades going regulary against pugs to roflstomp them and get easy glory, ruin the fun even more.
First, they solve all the matchmaking issues. And i mean ALL.
Then, they focus on leavers.
I'm sick tired of going random pug to find a premade that roflstomp my pug team mates and then can freely swarm on me.
Plus, many of these premades don't even think about asking for 1v1s to let the other team play. They just either spawn camp or chase you like rabid dogs through the Whole map just to swarm you again, even if the match is 3v5 and they are winning 900-0.
Seriously, this is worse than any leavers issue.
And a simple ranking system will not fix this, cause there's still a huge difference between a random pug and a premade of people used to fight together, may be communicating via team speak, forming a Group with specific classes and roles.
well... i've always stated that leaver penalties should come after matchmaking was fixed. and we know that's coming even though we haven't been able to test it yet. so even though leaver penalties are on the preview shard now and we haven't been able to test matchmaking with it, that's not to say that none of this has been tested to the point that it at least makes sense on the devs side of the fence. it's just as easy to speculate positives as it is to speculate negatives. but i suppose for some, they'd rather be pleasantly surprised than disappointed.
This is likely too late into the thread for a dev to still be paying attention. This has been a problem faced by other MMOs, and the solution is rather simple:
Increase rewards for the losing team.
The problem with the current system is that it doesn't encourage sportsmanship or real competition, it encourages gaming the system. This is because the glory reward for losing isn't worth wasting 15 minutes. Yes, wasting.
Past the point of assured loss, there is no point in wasting the time and effort to keep fighting, as the only people to benefit from high scores in a losing match are primarily the people winning.
You need to dissuade the sense that people are wasting their time. When people have a long way to grind, they do not like to waste their time.
This is a consequence of the grind implemented for PvP advancement. If you're going to make people run through alot of these matches just to make any progress, then the trend will be toward efficiency - even for casual players when the grind is hard enough.
This means that, in the present system, it's better to just cycle PvP matches until you find a winning one. Implementing a leaver system just means going afk at camp to make a sandwich while the timer counts down. Trying to implement an anti-camping system to punish the players camping will just result in some other innovative means toward minimal effort, because it simply isn't worth the trouble to participate.
The solution is to raise the reward for the losing team and reduce the ridiculous 3x magnitude gap between winning and losing. It needs to be scaled so that there is still an incentive for winning, but that people losing don't face such a ridiculous opportunity cost and feel that they are wasting their time by continuing to participate.
______________________________________________________
And before you 'winner take all' idiots even chime in, you can either give people a reason to fight or you can sit there and whine when they don't fight. Take your pick.
I don't PvP so take this with a grain of salt, but...what if rewards for losing were scaled up to a certain maximum based on how close the match was? That might encourage people to stick around and fight on even if their team is losing.
The problem with the current system is that it doesn't encourage sportsmanship or real competition, it encourages gaming the system. This is because the glory reward for losing isn't worth wasting 15 minutes. Yes, wasting.
[...]
And before you 'winner take all' idiots even chime in, you can either give people a reason to fight or you can sit there and whine when they don't fight. Take your pick.
Maybe it would help if the matches were shorter? First one to reach 500 wins. Now it's 2k I think.
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
I've beaten premades sooo many times in full pugs, and full premades left against my pug teams soooo many times… there were even situations where one pug from my team died once and left, but we still managed (as a pug team) to win against that full guild premade 4v5 due to good coordination and voice chat.
Most people do not realize where points come from (contesting, forcing the other team to fight off node once capped). Even though the premade team had 5x more kills than we did, we (pugs) still won as a 4v5 with a score of 1000:400. And this is not a rare case. Sometimes it takes one wipe to determine if the other team uses voice chat (most of them do not), has a specific tactic (most of them do not), or just randomly zerks the field (most of them do). If this is the case, a GS 9k team vs. a GS 14 - 15k team has a good chance of winning. Any PvP move applied (and there are bunch of them) will put the zerking team into disadvantage.
Do you know how many matches I had where my pug team wiped, but I realized we have a good chance of winning, started to explain to them which class should do what, and ended up as 1 vs. 5 anyway? People don't even try to win!
If my pug team stays and is willing to learn, we usually win every match against almost any premade (unless we run into a TS-coordinated PvP guild premade… which happens once a month).
I expect the same effort from the other teams! I expect them to learn how to play, where to go, what's which class' job, etc.
I also had Rank 4s and 5s once and no armor/weapon enchantments. Leaving was never an option for me, especially not leaving first, not only because making the best out of it was fun, too, but because I knew I would let down 9 other players! I usually pug without any enchantments, just to get better at tactics, and I only put my gear on when I see it's really necessary.
The only reason I leave a PvP match is if more than 1 person is being an *******. Examples:
I (capping 3): "GWF, please try to stay on 1 as long as possible. Don't leave the point until I replace you."
GWF (chasing a permastealth TR between 1 and 2 for minutes): "KILL IDIOT STOP STAND MORON **** KILL TR!"
DC (healing the GWF while he's fighting the TR off point): "Meld, stop standing over there, come here help kill him!"
If, after an explanation on how the PvP mechanics work, they keep insulting me, I leave the match. This happens once in 2 - 3 weeks.
Also, if it's 1v5 or 2v5, and the other team is not open to 1v1s, I leave, too.
This person gets it. Glad to see someone else posting sense.
You just gotta understand how crucial leaving is. Compare it to someone with a hack that can make 9 other people disconnect from the game, so that they have to restart. One click: fun ruined for 9 players. ~1 min cooldown on the hack. And they are doing it consistently. And I always see people do it for fun or leave matches where their team is winning (but very close) with the message: "bah, match takes too long, need faster glory".
What would be the punishment if someone was using a 3rd party software to disconnect random players from the game 9 players/min. Because this is basically what is happening. Losing gives you a chance to learn! And I am not talking about the extremely rare cases where a full pro premade starts crushing pugs. I'm talking about the 14 out of 15 full pug PvP matches that end after less than 1 min, because someone gets killed once and ragequits.
I am all for leaver penalty, you probably know that as well, i am really sick of PvP ending after 1 minute and having to reque.
But it has been brought to my attention by reading this thread, that most of the fun games we have are when we agree with another guild to que up together for a PM vs PM, or do an Inhouse etc. Now, when we do this we sometimes get the right que pop on first try, if not we have to wait for the pop we think is correct.
If we for some reason (which happens alot imo) get pop at the same time, but in a different match, both teams would have to fight the pugs they are put up against and then try to que with us again.
Even if you want to do 1v1s, you have to que up at the same time and hope to get the right que and to be on the different team.
All these things, 1v1s, PMvsPMs, will be alot more difficult to organize when they implement a leavers penalty. Because you cant just quit and remake anymore.
Implementing a matchmaking system is really important here, but more important is how they do it. If they, including the normal matchmaking system, let us have an option to chose the team we would fight, it would be awesome.
If we want to fight "Team Cryptic", how many tries would it take us to get that match with the current matchmaking system?
That are some of my concerns. So its basically all up to the matchmaking system they are making, that nobody knows anything about, except its Elo rating system.
And please, let us have duels. I think the devs have no idea how long this will occupy their players
I am all for leaver penalty, you probably know that as well, i am really sick of PvP ending after 1 minute and having to reque.
But it has been brought to my attention by reading this thread, that most of the fun games we have are when we agree with another guild to que up together for a PM vs PM, or do an Inhouse etc. Now, when we do this we sometimes get the right que pop on first try, if not we have to wait for the pop we think is correct.
If we for some reason (which happens alot imo) get pop at the same time, but in a different match, both teams would have to fight the pugs they are put up against and then try to que with us again.
Even if you want to do 1v1s, you have to que up at the same time and hope to get the right que and to be on the different team.
All these things, 1v1s, PMvsPMs, will be alot more difficult to organize when they implement a leavers penalty. Because you cant just quit and remake anymore.
Implementing a matchmaking system is really important here, but more important is how they do it. If they, including the normal matchmaking system, let us have an option to chose the team we would fight, it would be awesome.
If we want to fight "Team Cryptic", how many tries would it take us to get that match with the current matchmaking system?
That are some of my concerns. So its basically all up to the matchmaking system they are making, that nobody knows anything about, except its Elo rating system.
And please, let us have duels. I think the devs have no idea how long this will occupy their players
Agree 100%.
Most of the best matches are not from the Que system but are from premades. I honestly think if they just removed the ability for a 5 man team to que in the normal que system, and instead of placing them in que, that team had their own "que" under "available ques" then whomever wanted to que against that team could at their own leisure. I dont think you would get alot of "spam ques" since its not only hard to make a full premade but if you had one, you would probably just pick out of the available groups to play against instead of just queing yourself.
This would let premades "shop for other premades" and would honestly be ALOT of fun. Make a team - see who else is willing to play - no more spamming "who wants to PM" you que up and GO!
This accomplishes alot of things:
1) This removes premade from the random Que system. A max of 4 players would be the fullest "premade" you could be against.
2) This gives guilds and teams a MUCH easier way of playing each other without the hassle.
I also LOVE the idea of a "duel" system although this would bring some "balance" issues to the game, I really think that this not only brings ALOT of value to the game as far as another thing to do - ie duel your friends for practice.
It ALSO allows players to test things much better. I cant tell you how many times I have tried to test on the PTR to no avail and sit there for hours waiting for a que pop. On the rare occasion I can get 10+ people on the PTR its great, we can que up and its fine. But as it is right now, I cant test much without organizing full groups.
IMO all PVP needs is this:
1) Roll out the new gear/tenacity/healing depression/elo system and A version of the leaver penalty (maybe 10-15minutes)
2) Roll out TWO new maps. Sharandar themed and Dread themed.
- Sharandar theme would be a CTF map. First two 5 captures/"carrier has all abilities "locked" while holding flag.
- Dread Legion would be a "slayer" map. First team to 50 kills.
3) Roll out Foundry PVP with the ability to MAKE slayer/domination/CTF games on a NON-rated/NON-glory rewarding que system. This is merely for fun games.
4) Enable a duel system in trade of blades. They are then moved to another "room" in which pvp is enabled.
THAT is really all thats needed....
Step 1 is almost done.
Step 2 would literally take LESS than 1 week of ONE DEVs time.
Step 3 I know they have hinted at this in the past and honestly cant imagine this would also take that long.
Step 4 - cmon... that would take less than a day...
If that was ALL the pvp "updates" for Mod 3 I would be VERY VERY happy and I know alot of players would too...
Step 1 is almost done.
Step 2 would literally take LESS than 1 week of ONE DEVs time.
Step 3 I know they have hinted at this in the past and honestly cant imagine this would also take that long.
Step 4 - cmon... that would take less than a day...
If that was ALL the pvp "updates" for Mod 3 I would be VERY VERY happy and I know alot of players would too...
what you say takes a week or a day is literally impossible for any game company considering there is a time period for conceptualization, programming and QA. then preview shard testing. it could also be conceptualization, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing and then QA.
people complain so much about bugs yet they demand everything NOW and it's just impossible to achieve without either a few bugs or requiring so much planning and testing. what exactly is more important to you as a player?
what you say takes a week or a day is literally impossible for any game company considering there is a time period for conceptualization, programming and QA. then preview shard testing. it could also be conceptualization, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing and then QA.
people complain so much about bugs yet they demand everything NOW and it's just impossible to achieve without either a few bugs or requiring so much planning and testing. what exactly is more important to you as a player?
Well here is the thing.
#1 is almsot done as I mentioned.
#2 - you can make PVP maps in literally less than 8 hours. The only time it takes to code are the "rules" of the game such as kills to win or a CTF type ability...
#3 This was mentioned PRE-Open BETA from a DEV that they were hoping to get this out once the game launched... Its been almsot a year since that post now... Is that enough time?
#4 Again coding for a duel system to be put into place... cmon...
Im not saying I want this "NOW" Im saying Ive been playing this game since open beta, They have mentioned many times they are discussing PVP updates. Andy V did an interview sometime last fall where he mentioned pvp updates coming "soon".
What I am suggesting is take the game that is already in place like sharandar chipset for a PVP map. And just go make it. PVP players have been BEGGING for more maps for MONTHS now, and I get resources are limited, but its also REALLY easy to make a PVP map...
How do I know? Well, Foundry is a dumb-down dev tool. I can go into Foundry and make a pvp map from scatch that would be better than the the current ones in a days time and ive only been in foundry a few hours total - so no experience.
If they were creating a new class, new dungeon with boss fights etc and finding which lore/story to put into play, sure it would take all those steps.
Just take the tileset from Sharandar, Heck you can even take the first "zone" and convert that entire field into a big 10v10 CTF battle if you wanted...
They have all the raw materials to do all these things.... The ONLY thing that would take some time is coding a "que" system based around 5 man groups and also foundry pvp.
But conceptualization, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing and then QA for a PVP map? If this was done for the current maps dont you think they would have rolled out MUCH different with alot of the bugs fixed?
Im not trying to vent or seem "needy" its just its a much simpler process than you are making it to introduce things that fit INTO existing lore/tilesets...
More than just removing the ability for a 5 men Group to queue for pug PvP, i would just make 2 queue systems:
1 system allows people to queue only when not in a Group, for true pick-up-Group PvP, under the new ELO-ranking matchmaking system
the other system allows people to queue in groups of 5 players. When a Group reaches 5 players, the leader is able to queue for premade PvP, see a list of full teams waiting for a match, and can challenge one of said groups. The challenged Group can accept or decline.
Clicking on the Group in the list, you can see the members of the Group: class, GS, ranking informations/ statistics.
This would allow premades that want to clash with each Others, to create the match in a fast and safe way.
Half premades/ groups of 2-3-4 friends, can just preform the Group using the lfg chat if they want to join other strong players. After they are donw forming the Group, they can enter premade queue exc...
This second system does not take into account the ELO-ranking matchmaking, since it's the party leader who decides which Group he wants to challenge. You can clearly see infos about the Group you want to challenge or that is asking for a match, but the matchmaking is made by groups, and not decided by a matchmaking system like for pug PvP. If i formed a premade with 10k GS friends, i'll look for a similar premade. If a strong premade is challenging me, i can decline.
Fast, easy and safe.
Then you can implement the punishment system for leavers and be sure it will be fair.
the only reason that i doubt they would ever add the ability for premades to queue in competitive pvp is that it is open to abuse , whats to stop me getting another 9 players from my guild and farming huge amounts of glory for easy rp not to mention the glory needed for the new pvp gear . a large number of players would probably never take part in such abuse but then there is the small minority that ruin it for everybody.
Then just make premade queue for fun only, with no glory gain, and pug queue for glory.
Quite simply, people who queue with premades, unless they are really weak, already have some kind of "easy mode" in farming glory.
I respect meld experience, but i only play pugs and i see more premades kicking pugs asses than the opposite. At least in my time zone. May be his time zone is different.
Joining a random pug that usually is formed by 8-9-10k GS players and few times by good and geared PvPers, is completely different, when it comes to farm glory, then forming a premade with people you know, you communicate with and who usually are geared to a certain degree.
Just need to make glory gain linked to personal performance, and limited to normal queue system.
Match ranking determines how much glory you get.
850 to first.
740 to 2nd
640 to 3rd
540 to 4th
440 to 5th
340 to 6th
250 to 7th
170 to 8th
100 to 9th
50 to the last
250 extra glory is added to the members of the team that wins.
This means glory gain, and consequentially the PvP gear farming, is mainly linked to your personal performance in pug PvP.
Most of the best matches are not from the Que system but are from premades. I honestly think if they just removed the ability for a 5 man team to que in the normal que system, and instead of placing them in que, that team had their own "que" under "available ques" then whomever wanted to que against that team could at their own leisure. I dont think you would get alot of "spam ques" since its not only hard to make a full premade but if you had one, you would probably just pick out of the available groups to play against instead of just queing yourself.
This would let premades "shop for other premades" and would honestly be ALOT of fun. Make a team - see who else is willing to play - no more spamming "who wants to PM" you que up and GO!
This accomplishes alot of things:
1) This removes premade from the random Que system. A max of 4 players would be the fullest "premade" you could be against.
2) This gives guilds and teams a MUCH easier way of playing each other without the hassle.
I also LOVE the idea of a "duel" system although this would bring some "balance" issues to the game, I really think that this not only brings ALOT of value to the game as far as another thing to do - ie duel your friends for practice.
It ALSO allows players to test things much better. I cant tell you how many times I have tried to test on the PTR to no avail and sit there for hours waiting for a que pop. On the rare occasion I can get 10+ people on the PTR its great, we can que up and its fine. But as it is right now, I cant test much without organizing full groups.
IMO all PVP needs is this:
1) Roll out the new gear/tenacity/healing depression/elo system and A version of the leaver penalty (maybe 10-15minutes)
2) Roll out TWO new maps. Sharandar themed and Dread themed.
- Sharandar theme would be a CTF map. First two 5 captures/"carrier has all abilities "locked" while holding flag.
- Dread Legion would be a "slayer" map. First team to 50 kills.
3) Roll out Foundry PVP with the ability to MAKE slayer/domination/CTF games on a NON-rated/NON-glory rewarding que system. This is merely for fun games.
4) Enable a duel system in trade of blades. They are then moved to another "room" in which pvp is enabled.
THAT is really all thats needed....
Step 1 is almost done.
Step 2 would literally take LESS than 1 week of ONE DEVs time.
Step 3 I know they have hinted at this in the past and honestly cant imagine this would also take that long.
Step 4 - cmon... that would take less than a day...
If that was ALL the pvp "updates" for Mod 3 I would be VERY VERY happy and I know alot of players would too...
good post and I agree with most of it. just like to point out that there is a lot of games with different battlegrounds and new maps/objectives would make pvp a lot more enjoyable. Maybe something like from swtor voidstar objective or huttball . lots of different ones in wow also your team hold the relic and gains increased points for match. To me different objectives would be better than just new maps. just my 2 cents
I also like the idea of a worse penalty for pre-mades quitting a match. I PuG 99.9% of the time because I like the variety of new people you meet and the thrill of the unknown. I also like to help newbie pvpers the best I can, sucks to meet up with a premade that just wants to farm PuGs. Many pre's are decent people that will trade caps or 1 v 1, always fun to test yourself against the "Pros", but they really need their own queue, hell most of the better pvp guilds would probably love a tiered queue.
2 cents
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" - Frank Zappa
Then just make premade queue for fun only, with no glory gain, and pug queue for glory.
Quite simply, people who queue with premades, unless they are really weak, already have some kind of "easy mode" in farming glory.
I respect meld experience, but i only play pugs and i see more premades kicking pugs asses than the opposite. At least in my time zone. May be his time zone is different.
Joining a random pug that usually is formed by 8-9-10k GS players and few times by good and geared PvPers, is completely different, when it comes to farm glory, then forming a premade with people you know, you communicate with and who usually are geared to a certain degree.
Just need to make glory gain linked to personal performance, and limited to normal queue system.
Match ranking determines how much glory you get.
850 to first.
740 to 2nd
640 to 3rd
540 to 4th
440 to 5th
340 to 6th
250 to 7th
170 to 8th
100 to 9th
50 to the last
250 extra glory is added to the members of the team that wins.
This means glory gain, and consequentially the PvP gear farming, is mainly linked to your personal performance in pug PvP.
Premade PvP is for fun/ guild challenge.
Sounds more fair to me.
Yeah penalize the tank and DC-builds even more as they are current! Why don't enable a -100% DR and -100% healing depression for them? Remove these useless builds, because PVP don't need them. Your suggestion is a slap in the face of them. How you think these both build choices will aquire points? With the capturing? Because Assists/be tanky|healer isn't really paid off/not paid. Only kills count good and these can't do them. Im against such a solution. It make even the stupid killer builds more effective.
Comments
One can lose graciously but one can also win horribly. I for one find it no longer fun once the match is 5v3 (or less) in my favor. What's the point? Where's the challenge? I already know that my team is going to win so stomping the remaining members of the opposing team over and over becomes nothing more then an exercise in griefing in my opinion. Once a match becomes lopsided in my favor I offer to either trade points or if the rest of my team is unwilling to trade points then I simply state that the match is unfair so I will no longer attack anyone unless attacked first thus making an attempt to even the odds.
I have no problem losing. But I have a problem losing to jackholes that think its funny to grief others. Yes, I signed up for PvP, but I signed up for 5v5 so once that is no longer the case I find no reason to be expected to continue abiding to some unwritten rules. There is no rules stating that anyone should continue fighting a pointless fight. Even the devs have pretty much agreed with this since there will be no penalty for leaving after the first two members of your team quit.
You first make a decent matchmaking for both types of PvP, then you put penalties to leavers.
Else, i want a extra-penalty for premades facing pugs. Like reduced glory gain if the party is formed before queuing, and extra-punishment for premade leavers.
We get that? If yes, i agree with the penalties. Else, it's just bashing the puggers who already have to stand the many premades going pug for easy glory farm, who also quit altogether when they find a pug too hard to beat.
And it is not that hard. Just make 1 matchmaking queue allowing Group queue, and one that forces people to be in no Group to queue.
Is it that hard to do, along with the ranking system?
And personal behaviour means nothing. I too, when the enemy is losing badly, usually stop fighting or let the enemy cap-trade while talking a bit, or ask for 1v1s exc...
Everyone does that? No. I see many, too many people, instead, who keep swarming enemies even in 2v5 or 3v5 situations, or spawn camping a team they already crushed. You can keep fighting, but what is the meaning? To keep getting swarmed and erased by a team of 5 fully geared enemies, when your 8-10k GS mates get slaughtered even faster? I can't count the times i just went down when i was in a 3 men team or in a 2 men team, just to find the enemy camping our spawn, or just to have the Whole enemy group following me like rabid dogs, through the Whole map.
Forcing player to just offer themselves to these guys is simply idiotic. So i just hope the matchmaking is really THAT good, since we get these penalties.
But we know almost nothing about how the new matchmaking will work, while now we know for sure how people will be forced to be cannon fodder for the premades that are regulary going all organized against pugs for an easy win. Will the ELO system prevent premade vs pugs or half-premade vs pugs?
Also: what does it means that you can't queue for 30 mins?
Let's say: the premade or half premade is losing, and they decide to quit (i've seen it happen more than one time). The first 2 get a penalty. The last 3, nothing. Then, one of the last 3 reform the premade and go queue. Now, the 2 with penalties get invited without the need of a queue, and it's another player then making the Group queue.
On the other hand, the pugger who get roflstomped by premades regulary, can't quit, cause the only way he has to go PvP is the queue.
Need separate matchmaking for premades and another one that forces people to queue alone.
Also what about people getting kicked? If I AFk for a couple of minutes for whatever real life reason, I'm kicked out of the match? To top it off, my team is now stuck on a 4 v 5 with no chance of winning because the system doesn't allow that person who got kicked to be replaced...
If this idea ends up going live, you're just going to have a bunch of players running on mounts since they have no incentive to continue playing.
I outlined a new system here http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?595071-New-PVP-Reward-System which never got any attention. The basic idea is this, reward people for fighting and continuing to fight making PVP more of what it should be, instead of cap trading which is what it is today.
So if this change makes you want to quit PvP, hooray! It's working as intended.
See if it was that simple I would say this is great! But it isn't that simple and isn't that great. I want to stay and do stay in matches where my pug team quits... I will find 1v1 or place tag with the team if they won't 1v1. BUT I find all too ofte that I get discoed from a match and come back to me being booted. Now I get the quitter tag? F'that!
Guild fight night.. can't do that now cause if we quit the match cause we didn't get the other team, 40% of the teams now have quitter tags! F'that!
Two cases of us wanting to actually play PvP and still getting the quitter tag. A big old F'that!
I especially agree with pando83 that the matchmaking system has to be severely tested before you even think about penalties. And because of the lack of participation on the preview server this can only be evaluated once the matchmaking is live for a couple weeks or even months.
Then there's still the queue bugs.
Then you should allow premades to challenge premades (a separate queue is a great idea btw.)
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penalties
I can't be the other way round.
Didn't they say something about not getting the penalty if you're disconnected but manage to return? (Which also implies that it will be possible to return without being booted, which is great.)
As for the fight night thing... yeah, that'd be a problem - but I have to imagine that trying to do something like that was already a huge pain in the butt. Hopefully they'll get around to implementing some kind of challenge system, sooner rather than later...
I never quit a match. Yet these penalties put ahead of the true problems of PvP, really make PvP less attractive. So i'd say that if it makes even non-quitters want to stay away from PvP, it's a fail.
Quite simply, as i wrote above, it is put ahead of the real problems, which seem to be left out.
For example: care about fixing the premade vs pug issue before punishing quitters?
And right now, we don't know if the new matchmaking will address thise issues. Yet, we already know we will get punishments for the ones who quit.
I want the ranking for matchmaking, but i also want premades to be forced to play against premades, and not be allowed to go fully organized and geared against random pugs, just to get easy glory.
Quitters ruin the fun, people say. I say premades going regulary against pugs to roflstomp them and get easy glory, ruin the fun even more.
First, they solve all the matchmaking issues. And i mean ALL.
Then, they focus on leavers.
I'm sick tired of going random pug to find a premade that roflstomp my pug team mates and then can freely swarm on me.
Plus, many of these premades don't even think about asking for 1v1s to let the other team play. They just either spawn camp or chase you like rabid dogs through the Whole map just to swarm you again, even if the match is 3v5 and they are winning 900-0.
Seriously, this is worse than any leavers issue.
And a simple ranking system will not fix this, cause there's still a huge difference between a random pug and a premade of people used to fight together, may be communicating via team speak, forming a Group with specific classes and roles.
Increase rewards for the losing team.
The problem with the current system is that it doesn't encourage sportsmanship or real competition, it encourages gaming the system. This is because the glory reward for losing isn't worth wasting 15 minutes. Yes, wasting.
Past the point of assured loss, there is no point in wasting the time and effort to keep fighting, as the only people to benefit from high scores in a losing match are primarily the people winning.
You need to dissuade the sense that people are wasting their time. When people have a long way to grind, they do not like to waste their time.
This is a consequence of the grind implemented for PvP advancement. If you're going to make people run through alot of these matches just to make any progress, then the trend will be toward efficiency - even for casual players when the grind is hard enough.
This means that, in the present system, it's better to just cycle PvP matches until you find a winning one. Implementing a leaver system just means going afk at camp to make a sandwich while the timer counts down. Trying to implement an anti-camping system to punish the players camping will just result in some other innovative means toward minimal effort, because it simply isn't worth the trouble to participate.
The solution is to raise the reward for the losing team and reduce the ridiculous 3x magnitude gap between winning and losing. It needs to be scaled so that there is still an incentive for winning, but that people losing don't face such a ridiculous opportunity cost and feel that they are wasting their time by continuing to participate.
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And before you 'winner take all' idiots even chime in, you can either give people a reason to fight or you can sit there and whine when they don't fight. Take your pick.
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
Most people do not realize where points come from (contesting, forcing the other team to fight off node once capped). Even though the premade team had 5x more kills than we did, we (pugs) still won as a 4v5 with a score of 1000:400. And this is not a rare case. Sometimes it takes one wipe to determine if the other team uses voice chat (most of them do not), has a specific tactic (most of them do not), or just randomly zerks the field (most of them do). If this is the case, a GS 9k team vs. a GS 14 - 15k team has a good chance of winning. Any PvP move applied (and there are bunch of them) will put the zerking team into disadvantage.
Do you know how many matches I had where my pug team wiped, but I realized we have a good chance of winning, started to explain to them which class should do what, and ended up as 1 vs. 5 anyway? People don't even try to win!
If my pug team stays and is willing to learn, we usually win every match against almost any premade (unless we run into a TS-coordinated PvP guild premade… which happens once a month).
I expect the same effort from the other teams! I expect them to learn how to play, where to go, what's which class' job, etc.
I also had Rank 4s and 5s once and no armor/weapon enchantments. Leaving was never an option for me, especially not leaving first, not only because making the best out of it was fun, too, but because I knew I would let down 9 other players! I usually pug without any enchantments, just to get better at tactics, and I only put my gear on when I see it's really necessary.
The only reason I leave a PvP match is if more than 1 person is being an *******. Examples:
I (capping 3): "GWF, please try to stay on 1 as long as possible. Don't leave the point until I replace you."
GWF (chasing a permastealth TR between 1 and 2 for minutes): "KILL IDIOT STOP STAND MORON **** KILL TR!"
DC (healing the GWF while he's fighting the TR off point): "Meld, stop standing over there, come here help kill him!"
If, after an explanation on how the PvP mechanics work, they keep insulting me, I leave the match. This happens once in 2 - 3 weeks.
Also, if it's 1v5 or 2v5, and the other team is not open to 1v1s, I leave, too.
Leaver Penalty is awesome!
Thank you! One player less who ruins the fun for 9 (!!!!!) other players on a constant basis.
You just gotta understand how crucial leaving is. Compare it to someone with a hack that can make 9 other people disconnect from the game, so that they have to restart. One click: fun ruined for 9 players. ~1 min cooldown on the hack. And they are doing it consistently. And I always see people do it for fun or leave matches where their team is winning (but very close) with the message: "bah, match takes too long, need faster glory".
What would be the punishment if someone was using a 3rd party software to disconnect random players from the game 9 players/min. Because this is basically what is happening. Losing gives you a chance to learn! And I am not talking about the extremely rare cases where a full pro premade starts crushing pugs. I'm talking about the 14 out of 15 full pug PvP matches that end after less than 1 min, because someone gets killed once and ragequits.
Hey Meld.
I am all for leaver penalty, you probably know that as well, i am really sick of PvP ending after 1 minute and having to reque.
But it has been brought to my attention by reading this thread, that most of the fun games we have are when we agree with another guild to que up together for a PM vs PM, or do an Inhouse etc. Now, when we do this we sometimes get the right que pop on first try, if not we have to wait for the pop we think is correct.
If we for some reason (which happens alot imo) get pop at the same time, but in a different match, both teams would have to fight the pugs they are put up against and then try to que with us again.
Even if you want to do 1v1s, you have to que up at the same time and hope to get the right que and to be on the different team.
All these things, 1v1s, PMvsPMs, will be alot more difficult to organize when they implement a leavers penalty. Because you cant just quit and remake anymore.
Implementing a matchmaking system is really important here, but more important is how they do it. If they, including the normal matchmaking system, let us have an option to chose the team we would fight, it would be awesome.
If we want to fight "Team Cryptic", how many tries would it take us to get that match with the current matchmaking system?
That are some of my concerns. So its basically all up to the matchmaking system they are making, that nobody knows anything about, except its Elo rating system.
And please, let us have duels. I think the devs have no idea how long this will occupy their players
Agree 100%.
Most of the best matches are not from the Que system but are from premades. I honestly think if they just removed the ability for a 5 man team to que in the normal que system, and instead of placing them in que, that team had their own "que" under "available ques" then whomever wanted to que against that team could at their own leisure. I dont think you would get alot of "spam ques" since its not only hard to make a full premade but if you had one, you would probably just pick out of the available groups to play against instead of just queing yourself.
This would let premades "shop for other premades" and would honestly be ALOT of fun. Make a team - see who else is willing to play - no more spamming "who wants to PM" you que up and GO!
This accomplishes alot of things:
1) This removes premade from the random Que system. A max of 4 players would be the fullest "premade" you could be against.
2) This gives guilds and teams a MUCH easier way of playing each other without the hassle.
I also LOVE the idea of a "duel" system although this would bring some "balance" issues to the game, I really think that this not only brings ALOT of value to the game as far as another thing to do - ie duel your friends for practice.
It ALSO allows players to test things much better. I cant tell you how many times I have tried to test on the PTR to no avail and sit there for hours waiting for a que pop. On the rare occasion I can get 10+ people on the PTR its great, we can que up and its fine. But as it is right now, I cant test much without organizing full groups.
IMO all PVP needs is this:
1) Roll out the new gear/tenacity/healing depression/elo system and A version of the leaver penalty (maybe 10-15minutes)
2) Roll out TWO new maps. Sharandar themed and Dread themed.
- Sharandar theme would be a CTF map. First two 5 captures/"carrier has all abilities "locked" while holding flag.
- Dread Legion would be a "slayer" map. First team to 50 kills.
3) Roll out Foundry PVP with the ability to MAKE slayer/domination/CTF games on a NON-rated/NON-glory rewarding que system. This is merely for fun games.
4) Enable a duel system in trade of blades. They are then moved to another "room" in which pvp is enabled.
THAT is really all thats needed....
Step 1 is almost done.
Step 2 would literally take LESS than 1 week of ONE DEVs time.
Step 3 I know they have hinted at this in the past and honestly cant imagine this would also take that long.
Step 4 - cmon... that would take less than a day...
If that was ALL the pvp "updates" for Mod 3 I would be VERY VERY happy and I know alot of players would too...
what you say takes a week or a day is literally impossible for any game company considering there is a time period for conceptualization, programming and QA. then preview shard testing. it could also be conceptualization, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing and then QA.
people complain so much about bugs yet they demand everything NOW and it's just impossible to achieve without either a few bugs or requiring so much planning and testing. what exactly is more important to you as a player?
Well here is the thing.
#1 is almsot done as I mentioned.
#2 - you can make PVP maps in literally less than 8 hours. The only time it takes to code are the "rules" of the game such as kills to win or a CTF type ability...
#3 This was mentioned PRE-Open BETA from a DEV that they were hoping to get this out once the game launched... Its been almsot a year since that post now... Is that enough time?
#4 Again coding for a duel system to be put into place... cmon...
Im not saying I want this "NOW" Im saying Ive been playing this game since open beta, They have mentioned many times they are discussing PVP updates. Andy V did an interview sometime last fall where he mentioned pvp updates coming "soon".
What I am suggesting is take the game that is already in place like sharandar chipset for a PVP map. And just go make it. PVP players have been BEGGING for more maps for MONTHS now, and I get resources are limited, but its also REALLY easy to make a PVP map...
How do I know? Well, Foundry is a dumb-down dev tool. I can go into Foundry and make a pvp map from scatch that would be better than the the current ones in a days time and ive only been in foundry a few hours total - so no experience.
If they were creating a new class, new dungeon with boss fights etc and finding which lore/story to put into play, sure it would take all those steps.
Just take the tileset from Sharandar, Heck you can even take the first "zone" and convert that entire field into a big 10v10 CTF battle if you wanted...
They have all the raw materials to do all these things.... The ONLY thing that would take some time is coding a "que" system based around 5 man groups and also foundry pvp.
But conceptualization, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing, programming, testing and then QA for a PVP map? If this was done for the current maps dont you think they would have rolled out MUCH different with alot of the bugs fixed?
Im not trying to vent or seem "needy" its just its a much simpler process than you are making it to introduce things that fit INTO existing lore/tilesets...
1 system allows people to queue only when not in a Group, for true pick-up-Group PvP, under the new ELO-ranking matchmaking system
the other system allows people to queue in groups of 5 players. When a Group reaches 5 players, the leader is able to queue for premade PvP, see a list of full teams waiting for a match, and can challenge one of said groups. The challenged Group can accept or decline.
Clicking on the Group in the list, you can see the members of the Group: class, GS, ranking informations/ statistics.
This would allow premades that want to clash with each Others, to create the match in a fast and safe way.
Half premades/ groups of 2-3-4 friends, can just preform the Group using the lfg chat if they want to join other strong players. After they are donw forming the Group, they can enter premade queue exc...
This second system does not take into account the ELO-ranking matchmaking, since it's the party leader who decides which Group he wants to challenge. You can clearly see infos about the Group you want to challenge or that is asking for a match, but the matchmaking is made by groups, and not decided by a matchmaking system like for pug PvP. If i formed a premade with 10k GS friends, i'll look for a similar premade. If a strong premade is challenging me, i can decline.
Fast, easy and safe.
Then you can implement the punishment system for leavers and be sure it will be fair.
Quite simply, people who queue with premades, unless they are really weak, already have some kind of "easy mode" in farming glory.
I respect meld experience, but i only play pugs and i see more premades kicking pugs asses than the opposite. At least in my time zone. May be his time zone is different.
Joining a random pug that usually is formed by 8-9-10k GS players and few times by good and geared PvPers, is completely different, when it comes to farm glory, then forming a premade with people you know, you communicate with and who usually are geared to a certain degree.
Just need to make glory gain linked to personal performance, and limited to normal queue system.
Match ranking determines how much glory you get.
850 to first.
740 to 2nd
640 to 3rd
540 to 4th
440 to 5th
340 to 6th
250 to 7th
170 to 8th
100 to 9th
50 to the last
250 extra glory is added to the members of the team that wins.
This means glory gain, and consequentially the PvP gear farming, is mainly linked to your personal performance in pug PvP.
Premade PvP is for fun/ guild challenge.
Sounds more fair to me.
good post and I agree with most of it. just like to point out that there is a lot of games with different battlegrounds and new maps/objectives would make pvp a lot more enjoyable. Maybe something like from swtor voidstar objective or huttball . lots of different ones in wow also your team hold the relic and gains increased points for match. To me different objectives would be better than just new maps. just my 2 cents
I also like the idea of a worse penalty for pre-mades quitting a match. I PuG 99.9% of the time because I like the variety of new people you meet and the thrill of the unknown. I also like to help newbie pvpers the best I can, sucks to meet up with a premade that just wants to farm PuGs. Many pre's are decent people that will trade caps or 1 v 1, always fun to test yourself against the "Pros", but they really need their own queue, hell most of the better pvp guilds would probably love a tiered queue.
2 cents
Yeah penalize the tank and DC-builds even more as they are current! Why don't enable a -100% DR and -100% healing depression for them? Remove these useless builds, because PVP don't need them. Your suggestion is a slap in the face of them. How you think these both build choices will aquire points? With the capturing? Because Assists/be tanky|healer isn't really paid off/not paid. Only kills count good and these can't do them. Im against such a solution. It make even the stupid killer builds more effective.
You probably typed a character like ' or something from the extended ascii table, that seems to bug out the forums sometimes but not every time.
Can only hope the devs have better sense.