How would a spawn sitting penalty be fair to a player that tried to PvP but got screwed by quitters and doesn't want to be a punching bag dinging off free points to the opposing team?
How is sitting in a spawn fair to the five people on the other team that want to play. Sometimes you get rolled in pvp, you face better players. I don't claim that it never happens to me. You know what, I keep playing and I keep trying. I'm not an exploiter, or a quitter. End of Story.
a little off topic, but only PWE can make the distinction of what is and isn't an exploit. i understand that one may feel strong enough about something to call it a nasty name, but let's try to limit using that word especially in an accusatory way (ie spawn campers are exploiting).
How is sitting in a spawn fair to the five people on the other team that want to play. Sometimes you get rolled in pvp, you face better players. I don't claim that it never happens to me. You know what, I keep playing and I keep trying. I'm not an exploiter, or a quitter. End of Story.
Sorry but once again you didn't answer the question choosing instead to just keep reiterating you feelings on sitting in the spawn zone. This gives no constructive info what so ever even if you did phrase it in the form of a question. So from this point I shall not respond to you as you obviously have nothing to offer.
i don't think limiting PvP to hardcore end-gamer PvP heavy players is where PWE wants to go with these changes, i think they want to encourage everyone to play pvp... even if it's just a few matches a day. which is why the daily rewards exist in the first place.
I agree that PWE doesn't want to limit PvP but you also have to agree that it is the rewards that are causing some of the problems. Players farming glory to buy items to salvage and the rinx daily are adding players that are interested less in PvP and more in max rewards. Which is why I think players are so quick to quit and look for an easier match that they can win thus earning max profit.
I also don't think removing the daily and making glory items unsalvageable should be considered limiting in any way. Players would still have the option to PvP whenever they want whether they be hardcore PvPers or not. The only thing that would be limited would be the need for AD farmers to queue up for PvP. Not to mention to a degree the daily actually forces players to do something they may not really enjoy just in order to complete it. Players who PvP only to complete the daily are not going to invest the time or effort to get better PvP equipment or bother to try and get better at PvP since they only have to do 4 matches a day win or lose.
Once you remove the rewards the only players that will queue up are players (hardcore or not) interested in PvP.
Sorry but once again you didn't answer the question choosing instead to just keep reiterating you feelings on sitting in the spawn zone. This gives no constructive info what so ever even if you did phrase it in the form of a question. So from this point I shall not respond to you as you obviously have nothing to offer.
I assumed your question was rhetorical. Losing sometimes is part of pvp. Not being willing to lose means you don't really want to play.
a little off topic, but only PWE can make the distinction of what is and isn't an exploit. i understand that one may feel strong enough about something to call it a nasty name, but let's try to limit using that word especially in an accusatory way (ie spawn campers are exploiting).
thanks.
Your saying remember me at one person who say 'You use the word hate so inflationary like non-powerful words, that its meaning get lost. I should create a new word to bring back the old meaning.'
I dislike the Penalty. It forces to stay in a game that make no fun(lol if you think rofling over enmies is funny, then you shell play Egoshooter for this). Normally you don't find it funny if you haven't an opponent that can't fight back. Like the trainings dummy. OH i make a 30k crit on him yeah! And what now? ...
I hope a dying penalty will be introduced to prevent the squishy builds only go for damage(because it's now worth points) to more tanky chars and especially DC(the useless class in PVP ever, because Heal isn' really needed - 4 times dead? Doesn't matter! YOU GOT NO PENALTY FOR THAT!)
As it is a pre vs pre is a rare occurrence.
For the most part(9 out of 10) its a one sided slam dunk game.
What we know is players leave because its unbalanced and/or they are being spawn camped by superior geared/premade groups
and If they do stick around they get destroyed/spawn camped over and over receiving zero reward for it.
So lets see
1)If you stay you get spawn camp stomped and get nothing at all for it.
2)If you leave you get nothing at all and cant join for 30 min.
Get ready for less domination games and Long queue waits.
this is how pvp work currently:
absolutely broken and waste of time.
we start 5v5,
players run mid after their first dead they start leaving, (less than 5 minutes we are 5v3)
player start asking for "Trade Cap",
doing nothing, simply occupy space only alternately.
i'm so sad that pvp absolutely not really work, this is why a pvp punishment should be.
i think the 30 min penalty is a good way! to have real PvP matches.
i love the combat system and pvp,but currently it's just sad and frustrating.
because there is no real battles take place.
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ●
Under 10k Gs [Trainers] 1x Glory / Over 10k Gs [Wariors] 2xGlory / Over 15 k Gs [Legions] 3xGlory
If someone change gear inside map they will be kicked out by system and they will get "Coward's Shame" Debuff 30 minute can't quene PvP.
1-leaving because you end up with bad teammates
2-against impossible to beat enemies
Gear Score PvP fixes all. Ofcourse low Gs can beat high Gs team but it will make all clear.
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
edited February 2014
There is a point. It's about the Glory. Sitting around the campfire chewing the fat get you no Glory. Getting up and fighting, even 1 vs. 5 (and it takes 3 to kill you gets you Glory. Chewing the fat will get you the same AD, but no Glory.
I proposed a Glory loss penalty for quitting 2 points per level. I did forget to add - "No penalty if disconnected."
Okay if the devs start implementing these penalties I can tell you how I will respond, as a casual PVE player who only sometimes does PVP, never in premades, and if my PVP pug team is getting roflstomped.
1. If there's a quitter penalty, then I'll just sit in spawn until the match is over. Because there is no point in fighting if the fight is hopeless.
2. If there's a spawn-sitting penalty (getting teleported out), then I'll get tossed out I suppose, and then you all can just kill me. I won't fight back. What is the point? In fact I'll even make it easier for you: I'll take off my armor to make it easier for you to kill me. It will pass the time quicker.
3. If there's a flagging system, then I'll just ride around on my mount and touch a base every once in a while, or toss a potshot at someone, so as not to trigger a flag.
And then when the match is over, I will never ever ever queue for PVP again. Enjoy your long queue wait times.
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
1- "Coward's Shame" Debuff if you leave match before end. 30 Min cant queen again.
2- Gear score quenes 10 k GS- (Trainers) 10 k + (Wariors) and 15k+ (Legions) it will be 3x quene table and people will click.
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
edited February 2014
I've been on both sides when one team was bottled up in the campfire and after several sorties to no effect just stayed and lost. I still fight for the Glory.
It should be reasonable to create a system which detects if a person hasn't moved anywhere, especially within the spawn area, and safely assert that while the person may not have left the party but they did technically leave the match. I don't see this as an unreasonable feature to implement to stop the most basic form of Spawn Camping/AFKing.
Then a more advanced system would have to be put into place to prevent people from griefing the match in other ways but we could literally discuss the nuances of such a system in circles for days.
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
edited February 2014
With matchmaking, you have to 'make do' with what you have on hand and do the best you can with it. If you need 10 players of 15k+ GS and only have 9 queued - how long do you wait?
The bottom line here, is that if the matchmaking work as intended, the "leaver" penalty won't really matter. i would save my opinion on this once the ELO MM works, until then we can only speculate on the "effects" of this leaver penalty
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
edited February 2014
Players can enter at any time a team is short. I remember once one tem had 8 players and 7 for the other. Of course, at no time were the sides higher than 5 vs. 5.
When it's 1 to 5 or 2 or 3. that's the time to try new tactics. Think of it as a "Who told you life is Fair Challenge?"
And a little bit of philosophy: Why do rules exist?
They aren't there for the rule breaker. They are there for everybody else.
Please point me to the official rules for PVP. I haven't seen any yet. Or any official explanation how PVP works. Even the official Wiki page doesn't tell me a thing about it.
If there are no rules it's pointless to add any system letting players report other players.
Now of course strategies are subjective, that's not punishable. Not participating, that's infringing on the ability for other people to enjoy their time and that's where punishments come in.
It's not fun to get slaughter by premades in less than three seconds every time I leave camp. It might be fun for them, I don't know.
Fact is if that happens I will not leave camp anymore. Where's the point? Does their "having fun" weight more than my "not having fun"? Who's there to judge?
It's not fun to get slaughter by premades in less than three seconds every time I leave camp. It might be fun for them, I don't know.
Fact is if that happens I will not leave camp anymore. Where's the point? Does their "having fun" weight more than my "not having fun"? Who's there to judge?
Not participating in an activity you signed up for by joining the pvp queue does put you at fault be it by leaving or sitting at a camp fire. So in this case yes we are judging then that their fun is more important than yours. Learn how to lose graciously at times. No one wins every match.
If that still happens they just need to make the penalties more draconian to prevent people from leaving. Leave three matches in 24 hours get an automatic 24 ban etc. If the penalties are draconian enough the problem will stop.
Penalties are not the way to deal with this. In real life, have penalties ever stopped people from comitting crimes?
No because they're not draconian enough. Remove cruel and unusual as a prohibition and go for raw fear and penalties will work.
No they won't. Nobody comits a crime with the thought of bein caught and punished. The glaring example is the death sentence, where practised - it doesn't do anything to the crime rates.
What stops people from comiting crimes/violations is the certainty of punishment. If I know that my chances of being caught are high I will think it twice.
Good policing is what makes laws/regulations effective, not punishments.
No they won't. Nobody comits a crime with the thought of bein caught and punished. The glaring example is the death sentence, where practised - it doesn't do anything to the crime rates.
What stops people from comiting crimes/violations is the certainty of punishment. If I know that my chances of being caught are high I will think it twice.
Good policing is what makes laws/regulations effective, not punishments.
To be fair it takes both. If the penalty is a slap on the wrist no one cares.
To be fair it takes both. If the penalty is a slap on the wrist no one cares.
Well, of course it can't be too lenient either, there has to be an appropriate level of penalty to it, the point is - the penalty can be less harsh if it always works as it means there's no escape from it.
Well, of course it can't be too lenient either, there has to be an appropriate level of penalty to it, the point is - the penalty can be less harsh if it always works as it means there's no escape from it.
But no policing system is perfect, mix in a punishment that inspires fear and you detour some of those that might think they can beat the policing system. Human history, especially the dark ages is full of absolutely horrid events that caused societal changes because of fear. Those events are horrible, however they are a proof that fear is a motivator of human behavior.
Until they make one PvP matchmaking for preformed groups, and one PvP matchmaking that forces people to queue alone for real pugs, there's not chance a "punishment" to leavers could be fair.
I fight in pugs vs premades too often. Also, some guilds (usually the weaker ones) form premades regulary to stomp pugs, but when they meet a strong pug kicking their ***, they quit en masse.
Now, if a penalty for leavers is introduced, i want also a additional penalty for premades that quit when facing a pug team:
all gear is deleted from the account, and the character stripped naked, plus all AD deleted on all the characters of the account.
Plus, the premade losing to a pug, gets its glory reset to 0
cause you may win 9 times out of 10, and i'm forced to take the beating. And that's the pro of going premade vs pug.
But the con is, if you lose that one time cause by luck a strong pug is formed, then say bye bye to your glory.
This would be fair.
Also, camping in the campfire not allowed, with them getting TPed to the battleground after 10 seconds of inactivity on the campfire.
Not participating in an activity you signed up for by joining the pvp queue does put you at fault be it by leaving or sitting at a camp fire. So in this case yes we are judging then that their fun is more important than yours. Learn how to lose graciously at times. No one wins every match.
It's not about winning. It's about having a chance or not. Hopefully any matchmaking system will fix that... to some degree.
History tells a different story. No penalty will ever stop crimes.
History shows draconic measures did cause societal changes though. These were horrible and not related to crime however but religion. Look up the Alhambra Decree. It was a horrible act, and a tragedy but there was a mass population change because of it. Fear did motivate people in this case. It is a piece of evidence that fear can motivate human actions.
I think this is not the place to discuss the history of crime and penalty mostly because it will result in an unending story as there are always people ignoring facts that contradict their own opinion or theory -- regardless if they are aware of it or not. I like to discuss but this here is just to disgust.
Have a heart for the mods and give them not unnecessary work.
History shows draconic measures did cause societal changes though. These were horrible and not related to crime however but religion. Look up the Alhambra Decree. It was a horrible act, and a tragedy but there was a mass population change because of it. Fear did motivate people in this case. It is a piece of evidence that fear can motivate human actions.
Did the change last for long? As a German I could tell you some historical stuff about "draconian measures" but the result was not alsways as good as you keep telling. This is a game, realise it, search up for that word in a dictionary first, then think trice about the meaning before writing anything again: a well meant advice. (And I am sure it will be unheard.)
Yea, thanks alot, now, if 2 ppl stay on base I cant leave, if my team stays on homebase and leaves it just to paticipate in the last seconds of capturing a node, I cant leave, if my CW is the only char contesting a node, while HR play sniper from afar, TRs permastealth till the can leech a lasthit and GWF and GF run around like chickens to kill the permastealth TR, I cant leave. If I got qued with 8k- GS bunch against a 16K+ GS premade, I cant leave.
THANKS for taking the easy way to screw this up even more. Now I will have to do just premade PvP with guildmembers and friends, smashing pugs (now the poor guys cant even leave) with a premade 15k+ GS, ocassionaly having a fight with another premade and now and then getting owned by one of the PvP guild premades.
This will make PvP even worse for PUGs. For gods sake invest time and money for a match up and dont try to 'fix' things with instant fail solutions to calm down the masses.
PS. looking forward to getting a disconnect, relog, get kicked from the map and getting a 30 min penalty for bad programming on PWs side. Either that or ppl just disconnect to avoid the penalty. Good choices everywhere.
Yea, thanks alot, now, if 2 ppl stay on base I cant leave, if my team stays on homebase and leaves it just to paticipate in the last seconds of capturing a node, I cant leave, if my CW is the only char contesting a node, while HR play sniper from afar, TRs permastealth till the can leech a lasthit and GWF and GF run around like chickens to kill the permastealth TR, I cant leave. If I got qued with 8k- GS bunch against a 16K+ GS premade, I cant leave.
THANKS for taking the easy way to screw this up even more. Now I will have to do just premade PvP with guildmembers and friends, smashing pugs (now the poor guys cant even leave) with a premade 15k+ GS, ocassionaly having a fight with another premade and now and then getting owned by one of the PvP guild premades.
This will make PvP even worse for PUGs. For gods sake invest time and money for a match up and dont try to 'fix' things with instant fail solutions to calm down the masses.
PS. looking forward to getting a disconnect, relog, get kicked from the map and getting a 30 min penalty for bad programming on PWs side. Either that or ppl just disconnect to avoid the penalty. Good choices everywhere.
How about reading a bit about the upcoming changes? There will be a matchmaking system, also the disconnects / edge cases are being adressed. There's a lot to it and no really "easy" changes, the only thing I see "easy" is people who don't care about even spending 5 minutes reading a forum and then start ranting all over the place.
Comments
How is sitting in a spawn fair to the five people on the other team that want to play. Sometimes you get rolled in pvp, you face better players. I don't claim that it never happens to me. You know what, I keep playing and I keep trying. I'm not an exploiter, or a quitter. End of Story.
thanks.
Sorry but once again you didn't answer the question choosing instead to just keep reiterating you feelings on sitting in the spawn zone. This gives no constructive info what so ever even if you did phrase it in the form of a question. So from this point I shall not respond to you as you obviously have nothing to offer.
I agree that PWE doesn't want to limit PvP but you also have to agree that it is the rewards that are causing some of the problems. Players farming glory to buy items to salvage and the rinx daily are adding players that are interested less in PvP and more in max rewards. Which is why I think players are so quick to quit and look for an easier match that they can win thus earning max profit.
I also don't think removing the daily and making glory items unsalvageable should be considered limiting in any way. Players would still have the option to PvP whenever they want whether they be hardcore PvPers or not. The only thing that would be limited would be the need for AD farmers to queue up for PvP. Not to mention to a degree the daily actually forces players to do something they may not really enjoy just in order to complete it. Players who PvP only to complete the daily are not going to invest the time or effort to get better PvP equipment or bother to try and get better at PvP since they only have to do 4 matches a day win or lose.
Once you remove the rewards the only players that will queue up are players (hardcore or not) interested in PvP.
Your saying remember me at one person who say 'You use the word hate so inflationary like non-powerful words, that its meaning get lost. I should create a new word to bring back the old meaning.'
I dislike the Penalty. It forces to stay in a game that make no fun(lol if you think rofling over enmies is funny, then you shell play Egoshooter for this). Normally you don't find it funny if you haven't an opponent that can't fight back. Like the trainings dummy. OH i make a 30k crit on him yeah! And what now? ...
I hope a dying penalty will be introduced to prevent the squishy builds only go for damage(because it's now worth points) to more tanky chars and especially DC(the useless class in PVP ever, because Heal isn' really needed - 4 times dead? Doesn't matter! YOU GOT NO PENALTY FOR THAT!)
For the most part(9 out of 10) its a one sided slam dunk game.
What we know is players leave because its unbalanced and/or they are being spawn camped by superior geared/premade groups
and If they do stick around they get destroyed/spawn camped over and over receiving zero reward for it.
So lets see
1)If you stay you get spawn camp stomped and get nothing at all for it.
2)If you leave you get nothing at all and cant join for 30 min.
Get ready for less domination games and Long queue waits.
absolutely broken and waste of time.
we start 5v5,
players run mid after their first dead they start leaving, (less than 5 minutes we are 5v3)
player start asking for "Trade Cap",
doing nothing, simply occupy space only alternately.
i'm so sad that pvp absolutely not really work, this is why a pvp punishment should be.
i think the 30 min penalty is a good way! to have real PvP matches.
i love the combat system and pvp,but currently it's just sad and frustrating.
because there is no real battles take place.
If people leave regardless of the debuff at least we can still have a somewhat challenging game.
To be stuck with a lopsided game sucks:(
I proposed a Glory loss penalty for quitting 2 points per level. I did forget to add - "No penalty if disconnected."
When it's 1 to 5 or 2 or 3. that's the time to try new tactics. Think of it as a "Who told you life is Fair Challenge?"
Please point me to the official rules for PVP. I haven't seen any yet. Or any official explanation how PVP works. Even the official Wiki page doesn't tell me a thing about it.
If there are no rules it's pointless to add any system letting players report other players.
It's not fun to get slaughter by premades in less than three seconds every time I leave camp. It might be fun for them, I don't know.
Fact is if that happens I will not leave camp anymore. Where's the point? Does their "having fun" weight more than my "not having fun"? Who's there to judge?
Penalties are not the way to deal with this. In real life, have penalties ever stopped people from comitting crimes?
No they won't. Nobody comits a crime with the thought of bein caught and punished. The glaring example is the death sentence, where practised - it doesn't do anything to the crime rates.
What stops people from comiting crimes/violations is the certainty of punishment. If I know that my chances of being caught are high I will think it twice.
Good policing is what makes laws/regulations effective, not punishments.
Well, of course it can't be too lenient either, there has to be an appropriate level of penalty to it, the point is - the penalty can be less harsh if it always works as it means there's no escape from it.
But no policing system is perfect, mix in a punishment that inspires fear and you detour some of those that might think they can beat the policing system. Human history, especially the dark ages is full of absolutely horrid events that caused societal changes because of fear. Those events are horrible, however they are a proof that fear is a motivator of human behavior.
I fight in pugs vs premades too often. Also, some guilds (usually the weaker ones) form premades regulary to stomp pugs, but when they meet a strong pug kicking their ***, they quit en masse.
Now, if a penalty for leavers is introduced, i want also a additional penalty for premades that quit when facing a pug team:
all gear is deleted from the account, and the character stripped naked, plus all AD deleted on all the characters of the account.
Plus, the premade losing to a pug, gets its glory reset to 0
cause you may win 9 times out of 10, and i'm forced to take the beating. And that's the pro of going premade vs pug.
But the con is, if you lose that one time cause by luck a strong pug is formed, then say bye bye to your glory.
This would be fair.
Also, camping in the campfire not allowed, with them getting TPed to the battleground after 10 seconds of inactivity on the campfire.
It's not about winning. It's about having a chance or not. Hopefully any matchmaking system will fix that... to some degree.
History tells a different story. No penalty will ever stop crimes.
History shows draconic measures did cause societal changes though. These were horrible and not related to crime however but religion. Look up the Alhambra Decree. It was a horrible act, and a tragedy but there was a mass population change because of it. Fear did motivate people in this case. It is a piece of evidence that fear can motivate human actions.
Have a heart for the mods and give them not unnecessary work.
Did the change last for long? As a German I could tell you some historical stuff about "draconian measures" but the result was not alsways as good as you keep telling.
This is a game, realise it, search up for that word in a dictionary first, then think trice about the meaning before writing anything again: a well meant advice. (And I am sure it will be unheard.)
THANKS for taking the easy way to screw this up even more. Now I will have to do just premade PvP with guildmembers and friends, smashing pugs (now the poor guys cant even leave) with a premade 15k+ GS, ocassionaly having a fight with another premade and now and then getting owned by one of the PvP guild premades.
This will make PvP even worse for PUGs. For gods sake invest time and money for a match up and dont try to 'fix' things with instant fail solutions to calm down the masses.
PS. looking forward to getting a disconnect, relog, get kicked from the map and getting a 30 min penalty for bad programming on PWs side. Either that or ppl just disconnect to avoid the penalty. Good choices everywhere.
How about reading a bit about the upcoming changes? There will be a matchmaking system, also the disconnects / edge cases are being adressed. There's a lot to it and no really "easy" changes, the only thing I see "easy" is people who don't care about even spending 5 minutes reading a forum and then start ranting all over the place.