The distinction is that Cop's build doesn't rely on shield and can be more effective without it than other builds can. It has other mechanisms of control beyond steal time and AS - namely lots chill.
The distinction is that Cop's build doesn't rely on shield and can be more effective without it than other builds can. It has other mechanisms of control beyond steal time and AS - namely lots chill.
At least that's how it looks on paper to me.
Shield is still going to be superior AP gain and won't be missing from any builds, imo. This is because it still has no target limit.
I think that is very alarmist to say. We will gain a little less AP with shield and that is all... Everything else is a buff or a fix. Well, aside from EoTS...
Shield is still going to be superior AP gain and won't be missing from any builds, imo. This is because it still has no target limit.
The reports I've read are correct, then Shield lost a lot more than a "little" AP: Shield on live gives us 5% AP per target. As I understand it, Shield on the Preview Server gives 5%, period.
The reports I've read are correct, then Shield lost a lot more than a "little" AP: Shield on live gives us 5% AP per target. As I understand it, Shield on the Preview Server gives 5%, period.
I guess that I will have to test it but really no power gives such little AP gain...
Shield is still going to be superior AP gain and won't be missing from any builds, imo. This is because it still has no target limit.
Qualification - I haven't tested it myself. But from what the patch notes say and from what people who have tested it are saying, the AP gain on the new shield is negligible regardless of the number of targets you hit, and its cool down isn't reduced like it was before. So effectively, shield will be a high damage AOE spell with a very long recast time - but terrible for AP gain.
The reports I've read are correct, then Shield lost a lot more than a "little" AP: Shield on live gives us 5% AP per target. As I understand it, Shield on the Preview Server gives 5%, period.
From what I have read, and what I have heard first hand from people who tested it, this is true. Whereas before we got 5% per target, we now get 5%total, regardless of how many targets it hits. This is more than just a little AP loss.
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dennariiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 6Arc User
I love the butthurt of the control wizards. Glad, I'm simply wizard and not affected by this nerfs.
Well, that is how it should be. There should be variety in wizards, either you go control or DPS, arcane or chill, whatever. But I want choices! I want variety!
And you have. Wanna more control? Go oppressor. Freeze your foes like a liquid nitrogen. Wanna DPS? Go frost thau and watch huge numbers. Wanna gamble? Go rene and be random.
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dennariiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 6Arc User
And you have. Wanna more control? Go oppressor. Freeze your foes like a liquid nitrogen. Wanna DPS? Go frost thau and watch huge numbers. Wanna gamble? Go rene and be random.
While I do technically have choices now, when it comes right down to it, in any group I am expected to control, spam AS, and knock people off ledges. If I don't do this, people become very unhappy. So, do I really have any choice? And once they implement these changes, I fear not all of the few choices I have now will be viable anymore.
What can I say, when I like something I have trouble accepting change, lol.
Well, that is how it should be. There should be variety in wizards, either you go control or DPS, arcane or chill, whatever. But I want choices! I want variety!
The choices were always there, only some CWs refused to look at them. Now they are forced to do that. Not only are there choices when it comes to different trees, but also different feat setup and Powers selection. I honestly feel CWs have the MOST variety of playstyle between all the classes.
While I do technically have choices now, when it comes right down to it, in any group I am expected to control, spam AS, and knock people off ledges. If I don't do this, people become very unhappy. So, do I really have any choice? And once they implement these changes, I fear not all of the few choices I have now will be viable anymore.
What can I say, when I like something I have trouble accepting change, lol.
You should start playing a CW with more confidence. You are the one in "control" :P You tell the rest of the group how things should be done. You tell the group where to stand, to wait on your queue, to charge or wait for you to lead with an AS, to go smoke a cigarette while you solo the boss, where to hold Draco, etc... If you just do what others are telling you, you're giving them confirmation that you don't know what you're doing.
The choices were always there, only some CWs refused to look at them. Now they are forced to do that. Not only are there choices when it comes to different trees, but also different feat setup and Powers selection. I honestly feel CWs have the MOST variety of playstyle between all the classes.
You should start playing a CW with more confidence. You are the one in "control" :P You tell the rest of the group how things should be done. You tell the group where to stand, to wait on your queue, to charge or wait for you to lead with an AS, to go smoke a cigarette while you solo the boss, where to hold Draco, etc... If you just do what others are telling you, you're giving them confirmation that you don't know what you're doing.
Thanks, you're right about that. You know what? I know my class. I know how to play it, and I do it pretty **** well. But since I haven't been playing as long as other people, I tend to let them push me around and make me doubt myself. I really need to stop that.
While I do technically have choices now, when it comes right down to it, in any group I am expected to control, spam AS, and knock people off ledges. If I don't do this, people become very unhappy. So, do I really have any choice? And once they implement these changes, I fear not all of the few choices I have now will be viable anymore.
What can I say, when I like something I have trouble accepting change, lol.
If they start complaining, just tell them to L2P. Half of the times, killing some mobs after a shield push with no AS to gather them all is quicker than a safe and easy AS + shield push. Blame dps classes for having a too low dps. And enjoy a friendly atmosphere, because, admittedly, with exploits and pushes, 90% of the players barely know what to do when it's getting a bit harder than usual.
If they start complaining, just tell them to L2P. Half of the times, killing some mobs after a shield push with no AS to gather them all is quicker than a safe and easy AS + shield push. Blame dps classes for having a too low dps. And enjoy a friendly atmosphere, because, admittedly, with exploits and pushes, 90% of the players barely know what to do when it's getting a bit harder than usual.
I'd love to think some of these changes were made to help diversify group setups. GFs and GWFs have certain niches in picking up and pulverizing trash mobs relatively safely. But the real question comes down to what players will do. Will they try using a GWF/GF to help with adds, or just stack another CW? This is one of the rare cases I'm happy that I spent time/AD getting 5 classes with mediocre gear instead of 1-2 with incredibly strong gear.
I'm more concerned about DDs becoming near non-existent than the class changes.
Sudden storm can now crit on the preview server. With icy terrain, CoI, I was getting around 12k on crits, doesn't it have no target limit? It also gives 5% ap for me on a 6.4 second cooldown. Given that it is now supposed to refresh chill stacks. It seems like it has more potential.
I quite like the changes, it brings our responsibility down so other classes feel more needed with shield not being able to generate AP like it did, however i dont see many changes to feats so i dont think it will change things too much.
As for CN you still only need 2 wizards, one will run EF/shield, bump the other person using repel.
Im looking forward to seeing trying the eye of the storm changes, may switch to renegade again.
Also does anyone on test know if Assailing force works on tab yet?
in any group I am expected to control, spam AS, and knock people off ledges. If I don't do this, people become very unhappy.
Who cares about what people expect? If they get used to singularity bots - it only their problem. Controller archetype doesn't means only control. Primary role of controller is AoE DPS. Secondary - debuffing and CC'ing.
Right. I only had a few minutes this morning, so I didn't even log it. I just did it by eye. I figure, at worst, a proc every ten seconds or so. It's clear that the internal cooldown is no longer 30 seconds.
I do need a longer test to determine what the new internal cooldown is, exactly, though. There may not even be one, anymore.
So I ran a little test just now beating on a dummy for about 4 minutes with Magic Missile, and this is what I ended up with:
19 Eye of the Storm procs over 254 seconds. Given an average attack rate of 2.07 per second (which is a little slower than I've measured in the past, but I chalk that up to all of the random people fighting in the trade of blades today, and thus fooling my parser into thinking that the entire time I logged was in combat), and given the assumption that EotS cannot be procced while it's active, that leaves us with a proc rate of 19 /((254 - (19 * 3)) * 2.07) = 0.046, or right around the 5% we'd expect given the new tooltip and the patch note description.
A minimum interval of 4 seconds between two EotS procs
An adjusted crit rate approximately 23 points higher than what was displayed on my character sheet, which is consistent with the EotS uptime we'd expect given all of the above ((19*3) / 254) * 100 = 22.44)
I think it's fair to say that either there is no internal cooldown anymore, or that it's been cut to 3 seconds or so. I'm betting on the former. With the right mix of encounter powers, you'll proc more often than I did, too.
So I ran a little test just now beating on a dummy for about 4 minutes with Magic Missile, and this is what I ended up with:
19 Eye of the Storm procs over 254 seconds. Given an average attack rate of 2.07 per second (which is a little slower than I've measured in the past, but I chalk that up to all of the random people fighting in the trade of blades today, and thus fooling my parser into thinking that the entire time I logged was in combat), and given the assumption that EotS cannot be procced while it's active, that leaves us with a proc rate of 19 /((254 - (19 * 3)) * 2.07) = 0.046, or right around the 5% we'd expect given the new tooltip and the patch note description.
A minimum interval of 4 seconds between two EotS procs
An adjusted crit rate approximately 23 points higher than what was displayed on my character sheet, which is consistent with the EotS uptime we'd expect given all of the above ((19*3) / 254) * 100 = 22.44)
I think it's fair to say that either there is no internal cooldown anymore, or that it's been cut to 3 seconds or so. I'm betting on the former. With the right mix of encounter powers, you'll proc more often than I did, too.
Oh wow, i guess we can say that it was a buff(in PVE aspect) afterall
My guess is the purpose was to nerf the PvP part of it(and i really dont understand why) as our most damaging daily hits weaker than TR encounter, but whatever, i guess i'll continue to stick with SS\EotS in PvE further. Assuming CW has 40% crit, we can say that 40% of hits when EotS is up would end in critical hits anyway its effectiveness is cut to 22.4*0.6=13.4% critical chance increase, corrent me if i'm wrong
Now it becames tricky. if you dont have a vorpal or SW set, and have 75% crit severity, that 13.4% crit is 13.4*0.75=10% flat DPS increase on all powers. Chilling presence can give you up to 18% but it needs to start kicking in becouse it starts fron 0 up to 18. Both seems viable choises in thaum\chilling cloud build.
If you have vorpal or shadow weaver set, EotS seems to be more attractive atm. becouse if you have ...say 118 crit severity, EotS will give you 13.4*1.18=15.7% unconditional damage increase
AND it was just with MM spamming wich gives EotS a 5% chance, using encounters and dailies(with 15% chance) will give even more EotS buffs per point of time. And that will result in even more damage increase. If my math and understanding is correct, than EotS FTW!
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited August 2013
. . . . . Playing almost a wizard exclusively in PvE, I am looking forward to these changes. I cannot speak for the other class changes. For the Control Wizard at least, all I see are much needed fixes to existing problems I have been noticing since beta. I'm looking forward to these changes/fixes, for sure. I only hope for minimal bugs and hope these are a long-lasting and proper fix, but that's really up to fate. If anyone's played a wizard since Alpha, I'm sure they'd agree that the class has only gotten better (well, except for when they added rooting...*the mage frowns*) and more balanced.
In other news, the new Preview patch apparently broke Storm Pillar. The lingering pillar's attacks no longer crit, which is kinda funny when you're testing Eye of the Storm; you get an EotS proc, and you charge Storm Pillar .... Aaaand you get one whole crit out of the entire 3-second buff.
The pillar never procced, per my testing, which started about a month ago. But now it doesn't crit either. I think it's safe to say that the pillar should do both of those things.
Oh wow, i guess we can say that it was a buff(in PVE aspect) afterall
My guess is the purpose was to nerf the PvP part of it(and i really dont understand why) as our most damaging daily hits weaker than TR encounter, but whatever, i guess i'll continue to stick with SS\EotS in PvE further. Assuming CW has 40% crit, we can say that 40% of hits when EotS is up would end in critical hits anyway its effectiveness is cut to 22.4*0.6=13.4% critical chance increase, corrent me if i'm wrong
Well yes and no. I admit I took the lazy way of guesstimating the buff's expected over-time benefit, because the character copy on which I tested this morning has a low crit rate to begin with. (It's the copy I used to pump power into the sky to do my power-scaling tests a couple of weeks ago.) But the results I reported were measured, not calculated.
In any case, yes, Eye of the Storm's net benefit decreases as you increase your crit rate. On the other hand, more crit isn't a bad thing.
AND it was just with MM spamming wich gives EotS a 5% chance, using encounters and dailies(with 15% chance) will give even more EotS buffs per point of time. And that will result in even more damage increase. If my math and understanding is correct, than EotS FTW!
Yeah, it definitely looks like a PvE buff for EotS. Renegade builds should be pleased.
And you have. Wanna more control? Go oppressor. Freeze your foes like a liquid nitrogen. Wanna DPS? Go frost thau and watch huge numbers. Wanna gamble? Go rene and be random.
I randomed:) lol, a bit but im going the DPS route as well. I'm not that much affected by the shield nerf but of course it cut me down a bit. I have gone renegade for the sake of maintaining Arcane stacks for steal time and RoE(masterful arcane theft). I'm that guy who uses steal time for instantly killing trash mobs and painful RoE for the boss and elites like PlagueMaws, while still doing the AS-Shield thing, which will I see less now I believe. The random stuff of renegade tree really didnt matter to me although Im glad if it procs.
@freeze your foes like liquid nitrogen - lol. You can also do this via thaum and I agree thaum is a lot better in DPS in overall trees.
One question - how about the arcane stack for shield? Does this mean it only generates one arcane stack regardless of how many got hit? sigh, now I'm really going to rely on Entangling Force on Mastery, or..maybe consider respeccing back to the thaum path. Shield's Arcane Stack-gives pre-feywild also helps me maintain 5 stacks of arcane mastery for my steal time and RoE to be damage-effective all the time.
I use controlling action feat too so the AP gain wouldnt be that of a problem I believe for the shield nerf
MeyvnHart
Lvl 60 Control Wizard (Tiefling) - Spellstorm Mage [Thauma-DPS]
Philippines' <TANGINA MO PO KOYA> Guild
Mindflayer Server
Comments
At least that's how it looks on paper to me.
Shield is still going to be superior AP gain and won't be missing from any builds, imo. This is because it still has no target limit.
The reports I've read are correct, then Shield lost a lot more than a "little" AP: Shield on live gives us 5% AP per target. As I understand it, Shield on the Preview Server gives 5%, period.
I guess that I will have to test it but really no power gives such little AP gain...
Qualification - I haven't tested it myself. But from what the patch notes say and from what people who have tested it are saying, the AP gain on the new shield is negligible regardless of the number of targets you hit, and its cool down isn't reduced like it was before. So effectively, shield will be a high damage AOE spell with a very long recast time - but terrible for AP gain.
I'm not sure why anyone would be happy that every single player is forced to play like them...
From what I have read, and what I have heard first hand from people who tested it, this is true. Whereas before we got 5% per target, we now get 5%total, regardless of how many targets it hits. This is more than just a little AP loss.
Well, that is how it should be. There should be variety in wizards, either you go control or DPS, arcane or chill, whatever. But I want choices! I want variety!
While I do technically have choices now, when it comes right down to it, in any group I am expected to control, spam AS, and knock people off ledges. If I don't do this, people become very unhappy. So, do I really have any choice? And once they implement these changes, I fear not all of the few choices I have now will be viable anymore.
What can I say, when I like something I have trouble accepting change, lol.
The choices were always there, only some CWs refused to look at them. Now they are forced to do that. Not only are there choices when it comes to different trees, but also different feat setup and Powers selection. I honestly feel CWs have the MOST variety of playstyle between all the classes.
You should start playing a CW with more confidence. You are the one in "control" :P You tell the rest of the group how things should be done. You tell the group where to stand, to wait on your queue, to charge or wait for you to lead with an AS, to go smoke a cigarette while you solo the boss, where to hold Draco, etc... If you just do what others are telling you, you're giving them confirmation that you don't know what you're doing.
Thanks, you're right about that. You know what? I know my class. I know how to play it, and I do it pretty **** well. But since I haven't been playing as long as other people, I tend to let them push me around and make me doubt myself. I really need to stop that.
If they start complaining, just tell them to L2P. Half of the times, killing some mobs after a shield push with no AS to gather them all is quicker than a safe and easy AS + shield push. Blame dps classes for having a too low dps. And enjoy a friendly atmosphere, because, admittedly, with exploits and pushes, 90% of the players barely know what to do when it's getting a bit harder than usual.
I'm more concerned about DDs becoming near non-existent than the class changes.
As for CN you still only need 2 wizards, one will run EF/shield, bump the other person using repel.
Im looking forward to seeing trying the eye of the storm changes, may switch to renegade again.
Also does anyone on test know if Assailing force works on tab yet?
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Actually, no. If everyone is nerfed everyone is nerfed.
You're not magically at the same power level as previously just because everyone else sucks now too.
So I ran a little test just now beating on a dummy for about 4 minutes with Magic Missile, and this is what I ended up with:
I think it's fair to say that either there is no internal cooldown anymore, or that it's been cut to 3 seconds or so. I'm betting on the former. With the right mix of encounter powers, you'll proc more often than I did, too.
Oh wow, i guess we can say that it was a buff(in PVE aspect) afterall
My guess is the purpose was to nerf the PvP part of it(and i really dont understand why) as our most damaging daily hits weaker than TR encounter, but whatever, i guess i'll continue to stick with SS\EotS in PvE further. Assuming CW has 40% crit, we can say that 40% of hits when EotS is up would end in critical hits anyway its effectiveness is cut to 22.4*0.6=13.4% critical chance increase, corrent me if i'm wrong
Now it becames tricky. if you dont have a vorpal or SW set, and have 75% crit severity, that 13.4% crit is 13.4*0.75=10% flat DPS increase on all powers. Chilling presence can give you up to 18% but it needs to start kicking in becouse it starts fron 0 up to 18. Both seems viable choises in thaum\chilling cloud build.
If you have vorpal or shadow weaver set, EotS seems to be more attractive atm. becouse if you have ...say 118 crit severity, EotS will give you 13.4*1.18=15.7% unconditional damage increase
AND it was just with MM spamming wich gives EotS a 5% chance, using encounters and dailies(with 15% chance) will give even more EotS buffs per point of time. And that will result in even more damage increase. If my math and understanding is correct, than EotS FTW!
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The pillar never procced, per my testing, which started about a month ago. But now it doesn't crit either. I think it's safe to say that the pillar should do both of those things.
Well yes and no. I admit I took the lazy way of guesstimating the buff's expected over-time benefit, because the character copy on which I tested this morning has a low crit rate to begin with. (It's the copy I used to pump power into the sky to do my power-scaling tests a couple of weeks ago.) But the results I reported were measured, not calculated.
In any case, yes, Eye of the Storm's net benefit decreases as you increase your crit rate. On the other hand, more crit isn't a bad thing.
Yeah, it definitely looks like a PvE buff for EotS. Renegade builds should be pleased.
I randomed:) lol, a bit but im going the DPS route as well. I'm not that much affected by the shield nerf but of course it cut me down a bit. I have gone renegade for the sake of maintaining Arcane stacks for steal time and RoE(masterful arcane theft). I'm that guy who uses steal time for instantly killing trash mobs and painful RoE for the boss and elites like PlagueMaws, while still doing the AS-Shield thing, which will I see less now I believe. The random stuff of renegade tree really didnt matter to me although Im glad if it procs.
@freeze your foes like liquid nitrogen - lol. You can also do this via thaum and I agree thaum is a lot better in DPS in overall trees.
One question - how about the arcane stack for shield? Does this mean it only generates one arcane stack regardless of how many got hit? sigh, now I'm really going to rely on Entangling Force on Mastery, or..maybe consider respeccing back to the thaum path. Shield's Arcane Stack-gives pre-feywild also helps me maintain 5 stacks of arcane mastery for my steal time and RoE to be damage-effective all the time.
I use controlling action feat too so the AP gain wouldnt be that of a problem I believe for the shield nerf
MeyvnHart
Lvl 60 Control Wizard (Tiefling) - Spellstorm Mage [Thauma-DPS]
Philippines' <TANGINA MO PO KOYA> Guild
Mindflayer Server
Oppressor can place multiple icy terrains via Alacrity.
As for controlling action - it gives miserable AP gain.
I want this class in NW.
Oh a nerf is definitely coming, because the AoE effect of EF on tab is probably not intended.