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Forums > Home› Class Forums› The Militia Barracks

Why are the Devs nerfing all GWFs ratehr than adjustign the Sentinel Feats?

mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited August 2013 in The Militia Barracks
Having played a few MMOs I am astonished at the 'balancing' attempts by the Devs for Neverwinter.

First there was the massive nerf of GWF DPS between Closed and 'Open Beta' with no actual testing.

Then there was the announced nerf of TR damage to stop perma-stealth builds. (Yes, the logic of this escapes me too.)

And now because Sentinel GWF are doing too well in PvP, we have a series of proposed damage and survivability nerfs which will affect all GWF, a class that is barely tolerated in PvE as it is, rather than some adjustments to the Sentinel Feat line.

Can anyone figure out why the Devs are doing thing this way? Because I know I can't.
Post edited by mconosrep on
«1345

Comments

  • maxillion2maxillion2 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I never understood why people bother with PvE in niverwinter after getting all ther BiS Gear but for me pvp in endgame in neverwinter. Other then that the slam nerf will not effect PvP only the bravery nerf and weapon master deflection nerf but i dont play a mass deflection sent build so it dose not hurt me much. I don't even think it actually hurts the sent build cues that's still about 43% deflection they can get to i think 48% if there hafling.
  • irk2013irk2013 Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    They come up with 20 things to fix and how to fix them than roll a d20 4-6 times to see which ones will be chosen.
  • rhoricrhoric Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    It is cause of PvPers not knowing how to play their class. PvPers are tired of getting owned by someone who knows how to play their class. So they call for a nerf and the devs listen. And in turns hurts the PvEers.
  • cribstaxxxcribstaxxx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,300 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    maxillion2 wrote: »
    I never understood why people bother with PvE in niverwinter after getting all ther BiS Gear but for me pvp in endgame in neverwinter. Other then that the slam nerf will not effect PvP only the bravery nerf and weapon master deflection nerf but i dont play a mass deflection sent build so it dose not hurt me much. I don't even think it actually hurts the sent build cues that's still about 43% deflection they can get to i think 48% if there hafling.

    I'm at 53% with weapon master stacks as a human hehe. But yes they are really hurting PvE as well. Deflection is the stat that made GWF tanks viable in PvE b/c they lack the AC that a GF has. I agree that a tanky GWF is strong in PvP but without tene's they do garbage damage. Cryptic needs to be nerfing the enchant and not the class to compensate for their PvP strength, and they certainly didn't need this nerf in PvE.

    Also Cryptic needs to stop nerfing every class I'm working on... I was leveling a TR when they announced the TR nerf (thankfully they lessened it) and now I just finished the PvP tanky GWF build except for enchants just a couple days ago. Really annoying when I drop 500k AD and then Cryptic says "uh yeah you just wasted all that cause we're nerfing you now and building damage would have been better..." Thankfully I haven't put in my weapon/armor enchants yet
    Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
    We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
  • yamato146yamato146 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Every time I see a gameplay change and initially wonder what the devs must be thinking, it turns out that after I read a little deeper, the devs are pretty smart.

    I play a GWF. The GWF is not designed to be a dps class, really. Though as Trickshaw once said, once you put dps in a sentence, no one reads anything after that. The buffs to Slam will outweigh the dps nerf. A 15% DR while Slam is active, for the entire party, is huge. It takes a certain mindset to play a support class, one that buffs the party and debuffs the monsters. The initial interrupt is just icing on the cake. My rotation allows me a 1/3 to 1/2 uptime on Slam, to the DR is going to be very helpful, and make me more useful in dungeons. I will resist the urge to make a comment about people who are depending on Slam to so drastically boost their dps that they are planning to rage-quit over this change.

    I love the buff to Crescendo. That was a huge annoyance: wait for Not so Fast to come off cooldown, pop it to give combat advantage, then drop Crescendo, slice-slice for about 2.5 to 3k, then get knocked prone and lose the rest. *sigh* This makes the second GWF daily much more useful. Thank you.
  • maxillion2maxillion2 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Well for PvP slam is now more valuable sense it will give protection now the attack debuff pop that on a group at mid reduce there dps now i will not just use it to catch hard to get targets like CW who love to port alot.
  • pandapaulpandapaul Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 424 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    Woot another useless mechanic added to the GWF pack of already useless mechanics...

    a DC and CW already adds enough survivability in any decent dungeon party.. This 15% mitigation is totally useless no one will party a GWF for this when they can get by on what they get from other classes and when adding a GwF to a party will add significant time to completing a dungeon with their soon to be embaressing aoe dps and single target dps
    Fk u cryptic.. I give it to u.. U are gods at really destroying a class thank u... A aoe dps class with low aoe dps.. What a load of HAMSTER the GWF will be now.. If it wasn't already
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    yamato146 wrote: »
    I play a GWF. The GWF is not designed to be a dps class, really.

    Given that this game is about killing things, then good DPS (which we won't have after this patch) or instant-kills (which we never had) is really, really useful...

    Sure more utility is good, but people are never going to take a GWF over a CW, let alone a DC for 'utility'.....
  • pandapaulpandapaul Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 424 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    Anyone trying to Argue the proposed changed to slam is a good thing.. The reduction of 2 seconds on the skills uptime is a clear indication that this is designed to be a MAJOR nerf
  • cribstaxxxcribstaxxx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,300 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    also keep in mind that it can only hit 5 enemies lol, this in no way whatsoever makes GWF a more desirable class than a CW or TR in any dungeon. It advances our PvE 0 (In fact reduces effectiveness as the only GWF's I will run with are tanky) and sets our PvP back a mile. At least in PvP our innate survivability made up for our lack of gap closer or any ranged abilities. Now we are just ice knife and bull charge/frontline fodder...

    PS: yes slam does give DR in PvP which is nice vs. TR's, but with the survivability nerf we will just get bombed to death by CW's
    Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
    We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
  • viledeeds77#8676 viledeeds77
    viledeeds77#8676
         Member Posts: 393 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I don't think sentinel line needs any adjusting, the problem is Tenebrous enchants. In PvP stacking them is too much, on any class, combo them with the sentinel lines survivability and it is OP, combo it with a TR it is OP, ect. Tenebrous enchants need to be unavailable for use in PvP. If that were to happen 90% of the complaints in PvP would be gone but still make Tenebrous extremely useful in PvE. They are just WAY TOO OP to be allowed in PvP.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    Slam sucks for DPS when there is more than 5 targets. Period...end of...
    Avalanche has no target cap and knocks prone/interrupts.

    Remove the cap for slam...make the interrupt every tick. Bam...everyone wants a GWF.
  • judicasjudicas Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 156 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    yamato146 wrote: »
    Every time I see a gameplay change and initially wonder what the devs must be thinking, it turns out that after I read a little deeper, the devs are pretty smart.

    I play a GWF. The GWF is not designed to be a dps class, really. Though as Trickshaw once said, once you put dps in a sentence, no one reads anything after that. The buffs to Slam will outweigh the dps nerf. A 15% DR while Slam is active, for the entire party, is huge. It takes a certain mindset to play a support class, one that buffs the party and debuffs the monsters. The initial interrupt is just icing on the cake. My rotation allows me a 1/3 to 1/2 uptime on Slam, to the DR is going to be very helpful, and make me more useful in dungeons. I will resist the urge to make a comment about people who are depending on Slam to so drastically boost their dps that they are planning to rage-quit over this change.

    I love the buff to Crescendo. That was a huge annoyance: wait for Not so Fast to come off cooldown, pop it to give combat advantage, then drop Crescendo, slice-slice for about 2.5 to 3k, then get knocked prone and lose the rest. *sigh* This makes the second GWF daily much more useful. Thank you.


    how do you figure GWF is not a dps class? Thats what they were in beta, thats what they told us they were, hell even on the website they are a DPS that can offtank. most of us that made one never wanted a SUPPORT class. We wanted what was advertised, now they are being relegated to a tank (not needed) role with sub par damage. Stop trying to say ohh its better... if they just added the bonus and didnt nerf the HAMSTER out of it i might be inclined to agree. As someone who is disgusted by the PVP in this game I'm looking only at the PVE aspect, stop nerfing the **** class they are already the most worthless of all of them in pve. Until people are shouting "Looking for 2 GWF for CN/SP" you can not honestly say that the class is in anywhere a good spot. Until you can replace another class that is NEEDED in a group with us and not just pick another INSTEAD of us then we are NOT in a good place. It is as simple as that. Stop trying to say that they are trying to change the game... then change the **** thing FIRST then you can HAMSTER around with the classes afterwards, and if they change the class completely from what it was they should offer full FREE un-enchants and unbinding, reclass for that class for a week or something. It would be like everyone that is playing aTR built for damage has everything setup for damage and then they changed it to a healing class.... not quit as drastic but it gives you a good visual. The players WANT a big HAMSTER with a sword smashing into things we do not need to be top single target dps but there should not be ANYONE even close to us in total dps.
    Once the new classes come in that ARE dps what the hell will that make GWF? A joke? ohh wait the guy using the GIANT ****ING SWORD is a support class....
  • kolatmasterkolatmaster Member Posts: 3,111 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    yamato146 wrote: »
    Every time I see a gameplay change and initially wonder what the devs must be thinking, it turns out that after I read a little deeper, the devs are pretty smart.
    This is more in line with my thought process, and the fact well... They are gonna do what they are gonna do. I've stated my opinion a few times, hope they see it and find it constructive. Aside from that, I'll wait for the changes to come down and then adapt accordingly!
    judicas wrote: »
    hmost of us that made one never wanted a SUPPORT class.
    You have no factual number to back that assertion bud, so spamming the forums with that isn't necessarily true. Now I can't say it isn't, I'm simply saying don't speak with authority on an assumption... I love my Sentinel build, and I am perfectly happy as a support role. Though that is simply just me! :)
    va8Ru.gif
  • archomentalarchomental Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 138 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    rhoric wrote: »
    It is cause of PvPers not knowing how to play their class. PvPers are tired of getting owned by someone who knows how to play their class. So they call for a nerf and the devs listen. And in turns hurts the PvEers.

    Sadly this has been true in WOW, Rift, Guild Wars 2, and now Neverwinter. The top percent of skilled players
    make the low skilled players cry, and the company appeals to the masses.

    Ive been saying this for soooo long: Have the skills do different things in PvP and PvE (example: WOW did this
    with the warriors Mortal Strike).
  • tiggersumtiggersum Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I just don't understand why they don't balance PvE and PvP separately. I mean you have to enter a fixed instance or zone to PvP, so you could just change the balance there without hurting those of us that have never nor will we PvP.
  • xfutureshokzzxfutureshokzz Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    i also think the gwf have to be buffed for pve..... i even cant
  • xfutureshokzzxfutureshokzz Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    sry i think i have some bugs i wrote the text to times... and there are only the first 14 words....
  • chipsterchipster Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 128 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    tiggersum wrote: »
    I just don't understand why they don't balance PvE and PvP separately. I mean you have to enter a fixed instance or zone to PvP, so you could just change the balance there without hurting those of us that have never nor will we PvP.

    Simple. Less effort.
  • farfig1337farfig1337 Member Posts: 108 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    yamato146 wrote: »
    Every time I see a gameplay change and initially wonder what the devs must be thinking, it turns out that after I read a little deeper, the devs are pretty smart.

    I play a GWF. The GWF is not designed to be a dps class, really. Though as Trickshaw once said, once you put dps in a sentence, no one reads anything after that. The buffs to Slam will outweigh the dps nerf. A 15% DR while Slam is active, for the entire party, is huge. It takes a certain mindset to play a support class, one that buffs the party and debuffs the monsters. The initial interrupt is just icing on the cake. My rotation allows me a 1/3 to 1/2 uptime on Slam, to the DR is going to be very helpful, and make me more useful in dungeons. I will resist the urge to make a comment about people who are depending on Slam to so drastically boost their dps that they are planning to rage-quit over this change.

    I love the buff to Crescendo. That was a huge annoyance: wait for Not so Fast to come off cooldown, pop it to give combat advantage, then drop Crescendo, slice-slice for about 2.5 to 3k, then get knocked prone and lose the rest. *sigh* This makes the second GWF daily much more useful. Thank you.

    The Cresendo buff is a no brainer though. DC.s get a single target ranged daily that does more damage than crescendo and it already Has the immunity to CC buff in place.

    Devs want the GWF to have more utility... that is fine, but don't change a power that lots of GWF love. Instead why are they not buffing the GWFS other dailies that no one ever uses because they are utility powers. if you think utility is where it is at. Slot Avalanche of steel and knock prone a room full of mobs. Then understand why no one uses this power and ask the devs to buff it into a usable form.
  • kalintharkalinthar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    The SLAM nerf is ridiculous. If that happens then I want all Mage power's damage reduced by 25% and duration by 20%. I want Ice Knife nerfed so that it does less damage than a martial power.

    The developers have lost the plot. GWF are fine; the Sentinel build is meant to tank and does it well.

    If any nerfing for GWF goes through then I will be spamming the forums every day; whining about mages until they get a even bigger nerf.

    Can someone explain how CONTROL wizards do more damage than any other class without fail? I cannot wait to see how overpowered Sorceror's will be.

    NERF Control wizards = not GWF.
  • cribstaxxxcribstaxxx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,300 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    To be honest I think the only viable PvE build is Sent, at least that's the only GWF that brings anything to the table that CW/TR can't and the only type that I bring along to T2/CN. The slam change is a complete nerf, the DR will only affect 5 targets and only last 10 seconds, and will now do pitiful damage lol. But honestly the worst part is the 12% deflection nerf, 7% from bravery and 5% from weapon master. We don't have block, we can't reach the same AC as GF's, and GF gear has higher Def/Defl/Regen stats than ours does, so the only way GWF tank can compete with GF tank is with deflection from passives. There goes that deflection.
    Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
    We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
  • maxillion2maxillion2 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kalinthar wrote: »
    The SLAM nerf is ridiculous. If that happens then I want all Mage power's damage reduced by 25% and duration by 20%. I want Ice Knife nerfed so that it does less damage than a martial power.

    The developers have lost the plot. GWF are fine; the Sentinel build is meant to tank and does it well.

    If any nerfing for GWF goes through then I will be spamming the forums every day; whining about mages until they get a even bigger nerf.

    Can someone explain how CONTROL wizards do more damage than any other class without fail? I cannot wait to see how overpowered Sorceror's will be.

    NERF Control wizards = not GWF.

    First OF CW are not OP Ice Knife dose not hit hard unless 1.it crits 2.We have you debuffed 3.Gtenos/Perfect Vorpal Enchantment turns it into a 1 shot skill that's if it crits. Any way CW already went though nerf same time as DC i think you missed that Renigade got Nerf making it less effective if your a GWF you have so many CC Immunity's its not funny so don't give me that i am talking from a PvP Stance if you cant kill a CW with a single use of unstoppable you have bad luck or suck at te class and need to reroll.

    Any way CW like any class can do alot of dmg a GF can out dps CW with lightning enchantment and good RNG same thing said with GWF i dont use Lightning as it pulls agro like a mother.
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    farfig1337 wrote: »
    The Cresendo buff is a no brainer though. DC.s get a single target ranged daily that does more damage than crescendo and it already Has the immunity to CC buff in place.

    Devs want the GWF to have more utility... that is fine, but don't change a power that lots of GWF love. Instead why are they not buffing the GWFS other dailies that no one ever uses because they are utility powers. if you think utility is where it is at. Slot Avalanche of steel and knock prone a room full of mobs. Then understand why no one uses this power and ask the devs to buff it into a usable form.

    Wait what? You think Avalanche is useless?

    Class in session.

    Slam does 1k tic to 5 mobs (target cap) for 12 seconds. 60k

    Avalanche does 10k per mob (no cap) in 4 seconds. This sounds bad yeah? Only 5 targets on screen then I only do 50k.

    Increase that to 10 targets. I now did 100k in 4 seconds. I get 4 seconds of damage immunity. I knock everything prone meaning 100% damage reduction for roughly 2 seconds.

    I removed slam long ago.
  • maxillion2maxillion2 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tarmalen wrote: »
    Wait what? You think Avalanche is useless?

    Class in session.

    Slam does 1k tic to 5 mobs (target cap) for 12 seconds. 60k

    Avalanche does 10k per mob (no cap) in 4 seconds. This sounds bad yeah? Only 5 targets on screen then I only do 50k.

    Increase that to 10 targets. I now did 100k in 4 seconds. I get 4 seconds of damage immunity. I knock everything prone meaning 100% damage reduction for roughly 2 seconds.

    I removed slam long ago.

    Stop feeding People Bull**** Avalanche is a **** PvE skill you will never top DPS charts with that or instigator and its dps will never come close to current slam and destroyer Class dismissed.
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    cribstaxxx wrote: »
    To be honest I think the only viable PvE build is Sent, at least that's the only GWF that brings anything to the table that CW/TR can't and the only type that I bring along to T2/CN. The slam change is a complete nerf, the DR will only affect 5 targets and only last 10 seconds, and will now do pitiful damage lol. But honestly the worst part is the 12% deflection nerf, 7% from bravery and 5% from weapon master. We don't have block, we can't reach the same AC as GF's, and GF gear has higher Def/Defl/Regen stats than ours does, so the only way GWF tank can compete with GF tank is with deflection from passives. There goes that deflection.

    Viable? All three roles are viable.

    Nothing like taking Dracolich from 60% to dead with only a GWF/CW/DC left standing.

    The only thing I am concerned about is the deflection reduction on Bravery because of PVP whines about the Sent build being OP.

    I rock Instigator and I need every bit of it.
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    maxillion2 wrote: »
    Stop feeding People Bull**** Avalanche is a **** PvE skill you will never top DPS charts with that or instigator and its dps will never come close to current slam and destroyer Class dismissed.

    I hate to tell you this...but I top DPS charts using Instigator build using Avalanche.

    You don't understand that it takes 12 seconds to do FULL damage of slam?

    You don't understand that it only takes 4 for Avalanche?
    It also interrupts.
    It also prones.
    It has no target cap.
    I get 4 seconds of COMPLETE immunity.

    Quiz time.

    20 mobs are trying to smash you and your party into dust. Do you..

    a) Use slam with its 5 target cap
    b) Use avalanche with no target cap
  • cribstaxxxcribstaxxx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,300 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    tarmalen wrote: »
    Viable? All three roles are viable.

    Nothing like taking Dracolich from 60% to dead with only a GWF/CW/DC left standing.

    The only thing I am concerned about is the deflection reduction on Bravery because of PVP whines about the Sent build being OP.

    I rock Instigator and I need every bit of it.

    Destroyer and Instigator only bring damage to the table. Sentinel brings tankiness, with the right setup good threat generation, and pretty nice damage, they are a viable tank alternative in dungeons that are easier with a tank. Other 2 roles can be replaced by other DPS with more CC or more single target. GWF is like a jack of all trades DPS where as CW and TR have concentrated roles, teams are always stronger with a mix of concentrated over someone that can do everything, just not as well. (and I'm not talking about damage as damage dealt to trash mobs does not matter)

    Edit: GWF are PvP beasts and they should be as the devs seem to not care that they don't have a solid place in PvE. And sadly that is why my GWF is specced for, and really only does PvP.
    Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
    We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
  • maxillion2maxillion2 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tarmalen wrote: »
    I hate to tell you this...but I top DPS charts using Instigator build using Avalanche.

    You don't understand that it takes 12 seconds to do FULL damage of slam?

    You don't understand that it only takes 4 for Avalanche?
    It also interrupts.
    It also prones.
    It has no target cap.
    I get 4 seconds of COMPLETE immunity.

    Quiz time.

    20 mobs are trying to smash you and your party into dust. Do you..

    a) Use slam with its 5 target cap
    b) Use avalanche with no target cap

    Avalanche Will not save you from 20 mobs some mobs cant be proned in the time your in the air with Avalanche The CW's will have cleaned up the trash and your probably hitting less then 4 mobs by the time you land. The time your in the air I culd have started slam plus did 100k or more dmg in at wills and other encounters if your not dieing who gives a **** about your dmg immunity your also not proving any thing for your party during the casting of your liittle air show Like i said class dismissed.
  • cribstaxxxcribstaxxx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,300 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    tarmalen wrote: »
    Quiz time.

    20 mobs are trying to smash you and your party into dust. Do you..

    a) Use slam with its 5 target cap
    b) Use avalanche with no target cap

    Singu + bump for instant kill on all 20 b/c your party took a CW over GWF =P

    lol sorry I had to
    Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
    We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
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