...saying its a problem with the dungeons is kind of a cheap way out of it. ....... trying to change that to a TANK (not needed)
... As i keep saying this will only get worse when new classes are introduced.
If my comment about the dungeon mechanics needing a change is cheap then why you follow up by saying TANK is not needed. This is a confirmation that what I am saying is 100% correct. If you are OK with a game that creates End-game content where a "Tank" is not needed yet have 2 classes geared towards tanking, then dont complain about what they are doing to GWFs at all. Whether as a Tank or a melee DPS, you need to throw that GWF character in the trash if you honestly feel that the content is perfectly fine.
How do you know if the new classes won't suffer from the same issue? Do you have some insight that we aren't preview to? Everyone is so excited about Rangers, yet we know nothing of how they will play it. For all I know it might be simply a standard Range class. Do you know if it will have any real utility? Will it be able to punt and bug red wizards in CN? If it isn't, guess what? They won't be needed as well. Unless you give every class a way to deal with all the end-game boss mechanics in an >equally< (keyword) efficient manner, then taking a CW over any other class will be more useful. In summary, the problem is with the content, not the classes.
Im saying that they are not needed and that trying to change the classes before changing the design is beyond <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. You make the classes for the way the game plays now, if you change the game then and ONLY THEN do you change the classes. Do you not see how you are trying to put the cart before the horse?
No i do not know the new classes wont suffer but considering the two new classes are supposed to be DPS in a DPS game where do you think that leaves the meh dps class that doesnt bring a hell of a lot more to the table?
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
If my comment about the dungeon mechanics needing a change is cheap then why you follow up by saying TANK is not needed. This is a confirmation that what I am saying is 100% correct. If you are OK with a game that creates End-game content where a "Tank" is not needed yet have 2 classes geared towards tanking, then dont complain about what they are doing to GWFs at all. Whether as a Tank or a melee DPS, you need to throw that GWF character in the trash if you honestly feel that the content is perfectly fine.
How do you know if the new classes won't suffer from the same issue? Do you have some insight that we aren't preview to? Everyone is so excited about Rangers, yet we know nothing of how they will play it. For all I know it might be simply a standard Range class. Do you know if it will have any real utility? Will it be able to punt and bug red wizards in CN? If it isn't, guess what? They won't be needed as well. Unless you give every class a way to deal with all the end-game boss mechanics in an >equally< (keyword) efficient manner, then taking a CW over any other class will be more useful. In summary, the problem is with the content, not the classes.
Changing the content in dungeons would be a huge task for them to do.. And I doubt that will ever happen.. They would have to pretty much wipe the content and start over.. Lets face it.. That isn't going to happen...so adjusting GWF to fit a role to how "they thought dungeons were intended to be run" opposed to "actually how they are run" is not the right thing to do... And will just kill the class instead.. They need to accept how the content is being played and make changes accordingly.. And I'm afraid this change is the opposite of that...complete opposite.. The only thing that will get GWF in more content is to increase there dps.. That's it.. Nothing else is needed... Dungeons are about killing adds and bosses as fast as possible ... And if your class does not assist that then you are not needed... And this update rolls the GwF right down that road...
What they should do is just nerf PvP from the game completely and unnerf fixes to the classes
Is there a way to have powers/feats/items work one way in PvE and another way on PvP. From all these posts I am reading (And I may be wrong) it seems many of the NERFS are coming from specific builds in PVP decimating other players so instead of changing the class in PVP it is being changed for both PVP and PVE.
Im saying that they are not needed and that trying to change the classes before changing the design is beyond <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. You make the classes for the way the game plays now, if you change the game then and ONLY THEN do you change the classes. Do you not see how you are trying to put the cart before the horse?
No i do not know the new classes wont suffer but considering the two new classes are supposed to be DPS in a DPS game where do you think that leaves the meh dps class that doesnt bring a hell of a lot more to the table?
No this is not a DPS game, it is a CW game. Only ONE boss in the game is a dps race, and that's the Spider Queen. Even then it's been done without TRs. So what is the use of TRs beyond sneaking to the camp fires and have the rest of the group teleport? Obviously we all have different experiences about the classes. But if a GWF can get a group to Draco in 20minutes, I would take him over a TR. All you need is someone to grab the attention of the boss until the red wizards are bugged, and a GWF can do that with one hand tied behind his back. With a few changes to the mechanics of boss fights, I see GWFs bringing more to the table than TRs.
But again, that's not what I am looking for. I am looking for mechanics that either give all classes the same opportunity to overcome, OR mechanics that requires you to bring the right mix of classes.
Like I said before, giving GWFs more dps will not solve the problem whatsoever. It may however appease some people and temporarily limit the complaints. And that's exactly what they did. A month ago everyone had their GWFs collecting dust. Hec, they weren't even seen in PvP. They got a buff, and everyone took their GWF off the shelf. All the gear, weapons rose in prices. Now the forum is starting again with complaints about the class and how useless it is in groups. Sure the damage to Slam is adding to the hysteria, but it is not like GWFs were being invited because groups felt Slam was pivotal in clearing dungeons.
Changing the content in dungeons would be a huge task for them to do.. And I doubt that will ever happen..
You may be right. But if that's the case, then you need to worry about a lot more than GWF being viable. If Cryptic wants longterm success, they will have to change the mechanics. Your solution of adapting the classes into the same tunnel vision dps role will eventually cause the game to die. So you need to give GWFs more dps. Then you also need to give GFs more dps. Then you will need to increase TRs Single target dps because they will complain that GWF are now close to theirs, but higher in terms of AoE. Either that or give TRs more AoE. Why stop there? There is definitely room for a DC dps. They need to increase the top tree damage output of DCs.
Since there is no need for tanks, no need for more than one healer, everyone else needs to put out relevantly equal dps or the complaints will never stop.
The game is just 4 months old, and technically still in Beta. It is probably the BEST time to make "real" changes, not patching the water leaks.
Is there a way to have powers/feats/items work one way in PvE and another way on PvP. From all these posts I am reading (And I may be wrong) it seems many of the NERFS are coming from specific builds in PVP decimating other players so instead of changing the class in PVP it is being changed for both PVP and PVE.
Your logic of having powers perform differently in PvE vs PvP is very sound and logical. Unfortunately logic is not what drives a micro-transaction game. The problem is and has always been one thing; the Tenebrous enchant. Remove it from the game, and 75% of the PvP complaints will be eliminated.
No this is not a DPS game, it is a CW game. Only ONE boss in the game is a dps race, and that's the Spider Queen. Even then it's been done without TRs. So what is the use of TRs beyond sneaking to the camp fires and have the rest of the group teleport? Obviously we all have different experiences about the classes. But if a GWF can get a group to Draco in 20minutes, I would take him over a TR. All you need is someone to grab the attention of the boss until the red wizards are bugged, and a GWF can do that with one hand tied behind his back. With a few changes to the mechanics of boss fights, I see GWFs bringing more to the table than TRs.
But again, that's not what I am looking for. I am looking for mechanics that either give all classes the same opportunity to overcome, OR mechanics that requires you to bring the right mix of classes.
Like I said before, giving GWFs more dps will not solve the problem whatsoever. It may however appease some people and temporarily limit the complaints. And that's exactly what they did. A month ago everyone had their GWFs collecting dust. Hec, they weren't even seen in PvP. They got a buff, and everyone took their GWF off the shelf. All the gear, weapons rose in prices. Now the forum is starting again with complaints about the class and how useless it is in groups. Sure the damage to Slam is adding to the hysteria, but it is not like GWFs were being invited because groups felt Slam was pivotal in clearing dungeons.
No but without slam there is absolutely no reason to bring a GWF.. None at all.. Dungeons are being competed very fast without the dumb "utility slam" it isn't needed... People don't need that to clear dungeons easily.. It is a waste of time.. And In no way will help a GWF get a party..a GWF only takes the place of a TR in a party that's it. Take away the dps and that's not gonna happen now..
DEVS GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!! MAKE ADJUSTMENTS ACCORDING TO HOW YOUR CONTENT IS BEING PLAYED.. NOT HOW YOU THOUGHT IT WOULD BE!!!
Utility of a GWF has no purpose in a party when all the needed utility already exists..
If you make this change please send me a change class token as I would gladly delete my GWF after this..
No but without slam there is absolutely no reason to bring a GWF.. None at all.. Dungeons are being competed very fast without the dumb "utility slam" it isn't needed... People don't need that to clear dungeons easily.. It is a waste of time.. And In no way will help a GWF get a party..a GWF only takes the place of a TR in a party that's it. Take away the dps and that's not gonna happen now..
DEVS GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!! MAKE ADJUSTMENTS ACCORDING TO HOW YOUR CONTENT IS BEING PLAYED.. NOT HOW YOU THOUGHT IT WOULD BE!!!
Utility of a GWF has no purpose in a party when all the needed utility already exists..
If you make this change please send me a change class token as I would gladly delete my GWF after this..
I understand where you're coming from, and it is not where the majority are. If you are farming 5 CN runs in 2 hours, this change is a nerf, sure. If you run with a group that kills Draco in under 5min, then yes this is a nerf to the class. But at least 80% of the players base are nowhere near that. And those 80% will make more use of the 15% party mitigation than the 60% loss in dps of slam.
pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
edited August 2013
GWF doesn't need the same dps as a tr.. It at least needs viable dps... And this takes that away... It's almost embarrassing how bad there single target dps is.. Now there aoe dps will match that.. There is no reason to have GWF in This game now..
A Tr with a pocket knife or a cw with a tennis ball would be more use
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
I understand where you're coming from, and it is not where the majority are. If you are farming 5 CN runs in 2 hours, this change is a nerf, sure. If you run with a group that kills Draco in under 5min, then yes this is a nerf to the class. But at least 80% of the players base are nowhere near that. And those 80% will make more use of the 15% party mitigation than the 60% loss in dps of slam.
I don't agree with that at all... Primarily due to the fact that the mitigation adds nothing ... It isn't needed.. A cw and tr add all the required utility needed In runs.. This 15% isn't even close to what they bring and will not help in any way at all.. People wi still take a cw every time over that.. Mitigation hasn't been a problem so far so why do u think this will help?? The people I have spoken too.. Many .. ALL say they will NOT bring a GWF for this bonus.. So that means they have nothing left
GWF doesn't need the same dps as a tr.. It at least needs viable dps... And this takes that away... It's almost embarrassing how bad there single target dps is.. Now there aoe dps will match that.. There is no reason to have GWF in This game now..
A Tr with a pocket knife or a cw with a tennis ball would be more use
Ok lets talk numbers then. In a CN run, we need to first agree that the only important fight is the last boss. Everything else is trivial. You also say you use Slam on bosses, so we'll take that into perspective. Feel free to adjust the damage numbers based on your gear, although I dont think it would be far off.
Avg Slam on Draco will do probably around 12k damage in total (using my stats + SoS + Plaguefire)
Assuming you can pop Slam every 20 seconds. So that's 600 damage per second.
I know there are some groups that kill him in 3min, but lets be conservative. Let say with a decent group the fight would be about 6minutes. That's 6x60= 360 seconds.
So Slam would contribute to 216,000 damage during the entire fight.
With the upcoming nerf, you would instead do 86,400 damage instead.
So for the entire fight you would be doing almost 130,000 damage less.
You're telling me, your core group of buddies will kick you out of their CN run over 130k damage on Draco?
I don't agree with that at all... Primarily due to the fact that the mitigation adds nothing ... It isn't needed.. A cw and tr add all the required utility needed In runs.. This 15% isn't even close to what they bring and will not help in any way at all.. People wi still take a cw every time over that.. Mitigation hasn't been a problem so far so why do u think this will help?? The people I have spoken too.. Many .. ALL say they will NOT bring a GWF for this bonus.. So that means they have nothing left
So all the runs of any T1/T2s all run perfectly smooth for everyone. There are no wipes, no deaths, no quitting over not being able to complete a run. Pretty much everyone is farming all the content without any issues. Maybe you should tell your DC to not bother with Foresight. I know GWFs are pretty durable. Have you played a squishy class? There is absolutely nothing wrong with extra mitigation for the "majority" of the playerbase.
pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
edited August 2013
Ok firstly.. Getting to the last boss is not trivial.. The time it takes to clear and get there is a major factor in party designs.. Now firstly this patch will increase the time it takes to get there if you are have a GWF in party.. Plain and simple... In the current GWF state that is appalling..
Now secondly GWF already has such a massive stigma attached to the class already.. A majority already won't party one.. Now with a known nerf.. Within the community what effect do u think that will have on the prescription of a GWF?
Now currently GWF single target dps is around 20% that of a TR either way tis nerf will decrease that.. Whether its by not stacking slam or some changes to feat setup.. GWF can not afford to lose at dps.. It's single target is already embaressing... Also using slam at Draco If find very helpful to clear the archers without wasting time targeting them.. This is a major need to this strategy.. I can dps Draco.. Use slam and pull the archers and dps them.. Allowing the party to ignore them.. Usually on 2nd slam I can clear them.. Without having to target them.. Without my party having to target them... My survivability is good enough to take there damage while I dps Draco.. Now slams dps will make this alot harder..
Now lets look at what the current GWF can contribute to a party
Inferior single target dps
Inferior survivability
Inferior control
Arguably superior aoe dps
After patch lets look
Inferior single target dps
Inferior survivability
Inferior control
Inferior aoe dps
Inferior party survivability/mitigation
That's leaves is inferior at everything..
Now lets look at what's needed in a party
Survivability
Dps
Control
That's it.. Nothing else. We are so inferior at all of that.. There is absolutely no point at bringing one
This slam mitigation does not provide anything close to the extra survivability that a DC provides.. It's vastly inferior..
And because of that its worthless...
The devs must learn that continuing to add inferior mechanics to GWF is just making the class worse..
This is another example of that.. And at the coat of maybe our only superior mechanic.. It's a joke..
They need to make adjustments that brings something unique to the party setup from a GWF.. Not make adjustments that brings trash mechanics that are not needed..
This path is absolute death to gWF is pve completely
I am sorry, I stopped reading at inferior Survivability. You got people starting threads that GWF need to get their Unstoppable nerfed, that we have insane survivability, more so than GFs, and you are saying we're inferior. It is very obviously that the extremists of of all sides are bombarding this forum.
I am sorry, I stopped reading at inferior Survivability. You got people starting threads that GWF need to get their Unstoppable nerfed, that we have insane survivability, more so than GFs, and you are saying we're inferior. It is very obviously that the extremists of of all sides are bombarding this forum.
A GWF survivability is inferior to a gf.. I think you take for granted too much the buffs and help you are getting from others in your party... As it is.. In terms of survivability without the help of others GF>GWF and I don't know how u can argue against that..
And to be honest I'm starting to think that you may even be a TR trolling in order to get the GWF nerfed....
Either that or your endgame experience has not reached the top teir yet.. Cause at the top this is a massive nerf... Probably to the point of bringing the GWF below the point where it got buffed..
When you are running with parties that know what they are doing.. This change provides nothing to a party at all
A GWF survivability is inferior to a gf.. I think you take for granted too much the buffs and help you are getting from others in your party... As it is.. In terms of survivability without the help of others GF>GWF and I don't know how u can argue against that..
And to be honest I'm starting to think that you may even be a TR trolling in order to get the GWF nerfed....
Either that or your endgame experience has not reached the top teir yet.. Cause at the top this is a massive nerf... Probably to the point of bringing the GWF below the point where it got buffed..
When you are running with parties that know what they are doing.. This change provides nothing to a party at all
How dose A GF have more survivability then a GWF i would kill to be able to have 50% deflect chance on my GF like on my GWF Id kill for unstoppable instead of block i would kill to have high enough weapon dmg to make life steal worth stacking on my GF coupled with High Regen armor sets. Ok i am Conc Tree but really GWF HAs WAY BETTER survivability then GF but then again i dont PvE Much and them sent GWF can take a beating.
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
edited August 2013
I am referring to pve.. A pvp sentinel is different..
A pve built pve survivability just isn't that great without the buffs of DC and control of CW.. I mean neithe is a GF.. Unstoppable does save u but once that pops u are dead very quickly without appropriate help
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
edited August 2013
Sorry for some spelling errors posting on my phone on transit
Maybe, just maybe, they have tools that show the damage records of dungs, and GWF DOUBLING any other toon, the problem is not the lack of DPS of GWF, never been, the problem of GWF is the lack of a role, but right now, GWFs (good spec and well geared) are megapowerful (and fun to play), just get 1 good gwf on a dung and look at the results, devs have tools that show that, so they nerf because its the easiest (and cheapest) solution, and btw, in PvP GWFs are the best class right now, so they nerfed a little GWF after nerfing a lot TRs, you may not like it, but is the case, instead of crying about the nerf, ask devs to desing dungs without ledges... then GWF will be the first toon to be needed.
That's the truth, GWFs have a ROLE problem, not a dps one, not an utility one, theyre a 5th wheel, but right now theyre awesome powerful, the problem is not the slam nerf... the problem is the ledges in CN/T2 dungs, without ledges, with a dungeon design more GWF friendly, GWFs would be the best class without any kind of doubt, they are already in PvP... so less QQ and more constructive criticism and ideas on how to improve the dungeons for the class.
This nerf is going to hurt the GWF way too much. For me at least the only viable GWF build that I take to T2's and CN is a sent tanky build that also puts out decent damage (see kolatmaster aka leeroy jenkins build on barracks). Having a tank that can still put out damage and be immune to CC is very nice, it's about the only GWF spec that really adds to the group over any other class as he is tankier than a full DPS GF and puts up similar damage.
After this nerf why would anyone take a GWF to an instance over a GF for tank or over a TR for damage? Again you are going way overboard with this because of some PvP complainers, just like you did with the TR. Please stop nerfing the classes that are OP b/c of Tene's and nerf the stupid enchant!! This is why people cry unbalanced, not the classes. I believe GWF are completely balanced in PvP anyway. You didn't nerf GF so apparently you thought they we're balanced, they can take quite a bit of damage while still dealing HUGE burst. GWF can become more tanky the GF however their damage is less than half with very little burst, more than a fair trade-off.
Nerfing classes b/c of PvP whiners has to stop, I have 60 of every class except DC (he's 52) and I PvP with all of them. With 2 prones and good DPS backing them up you can kill even the tankiest GWF before he does unstoppable. But when you send in 1 TR to handle him, and the TR simply can't hurt him, that doesn't mean the GWF is OP, that means your team is not countering him properly.
Stop doing needless nerfs please and take care of the root problem of Tenes.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I agree GWF in it's current "Live" incarnation is not OP it is not UP it is fine. The problem is tenebrous enchants, they are WAY OP. I say make then not work in PvP, problem solved.
GWF Sent build (without tene's is just right) the other trees probably need some buff bat love. Destroyers need a bit more survivability, I think the Instigator line is also just right.
Kill tenebrous enchants in PvP and 90% of complaints in PvP are gone.
I agree GWF in it's current "Live" incarnation is not OP it is not UP it is fine. The problem is tenebrous enchants, they are WAY OP. I say make then not work in PvP, problem solved.
GWF Sent build (without tene's is just right) the other trees probably need some buff bat love. Destroyers need a bit more survivability, I think the Instigator line is also just right.
Kill tenebrous enchants in PvP and 90% of complaints in PvP are gone.
The devs have already shown they won't make the right decision for the game.. If tene's make them money then they won't stop that... But nerfing the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the worst class in pve already.. Shows not only are they greedy but they are also dumb af!
Kill tenebrous enchants in PvP and 90% of complaints in PvP are gone.
This! This should be more than enough incentive, don't understand why entire classes are rebalanced over PvP when tweaking this one item would make everything better.
Better yet you could just tweak them, only 1 can go off at a time, longer CD etc. I know you've sold a lot of lockboxes because of these but seriously it has to be less than 3% of players that can afford 7 Gtenes. Are you going to continually nerf the 97% so that the 3% can continue to happily destroy everyone?
PS: No matter how much you nerf the classes there are always going to be complaints about this b/c you simply can't achieve balance when people can double their burst with a couple of enchants.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I agree GWF in it's current "Live" incarnation is not OP it is not UP it is fine. The problem is tenebrous enchants, they are WAY OP. I say make then not work in PvP, problem solved.
GWF Sent build (without tene's is just right) the other trees probably need some buff bat love. Destroyers need a bit more survivability, I think the Instigator line is also just right.
Kill tenebrous enchants in PvP and 90% of complaints in PvP are gone.
Well put, but as someone already said, this is clearly about MONEY. Everyone's know about the tene problem for several weeks, or most good players anyway. The only reason Cryptic won't touch tene is it's making them good money at the moment because everyone wants them. Same thing with vorpal, but it doesn't have a problem. This proposed change to Slam is simply <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, there's nothing else to say. We need to hold good DPS in dungeons to make our class viable. I've been topping damage charts, always around 1st or 2nd place, and now I can forget it. I drop a daily once every 10 seconds or so, depending on the mob around, and attacking adds has just gone to **** if I lose this. The idea, idiot devs, is to enable me to whittle away at a number of enemies' life bars overall. Makes sense, no? Then yes, it must need nerfed!
Slam does close to 1k per tick (rounding up) to 5 targets for 12 seconds. 60k total.
Avalanche does (rounding down) 10k to 10 mobs and knocks them prone. 100k total.
Come again how is slam superior in a heavy add fight?
That is also before factoring in Blitz.
P.S. If you are on Mindflayer I will be happy to take you on a run and put your spec up against my Instigator spec.
Then you have clearly shown that it is a DPS loss over Slam. Slam is roughly 10k-12k right now, but it is fire and forget. So you need to account for all the time spent flying in the air using AoS, that you could have been spamming At-Wills. So considering that slam, in a sense, allows you to do at least twice as much damage during the same amount of time. You can probably manage a good 50k-100k of At-wills during the animation time of AoS.
Slam does close to 1k per tick (rounding up) to 5 targets for 12 seconds. 60k total.
Avalanche does (rounding down) 10k to 10 mobs and knocks them prone. 100k total.
Come again how is slam superior in a heavy add fight?
That is also before factoring in Blitz.
P.S. If you are on Mindflayer I will be happy to take you on a run and put your spec up against my Instigator spec.
I imagine those that use slam are destroyer spec and receive the +25% power while slam is active, not to mention the 12 seconds of slowing (and I think at least the slowing portion affects more than 5 mobs)
When I was destroyer I used slam for the power boost, with good ap generation you can have it up quite often. Not to mention during avalanche you are out of the fight and can't attack, but are free to use all other abilities (and with 25% more power) while slam is active.
avalanche is great for burst in PvP, but I generally use slam there too for the long term slowing more than damage.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
After this nerf why would anyone take a GWF to an instance over a GF for tank or over a TR for damage?
Why would anyone take a GWF to an instance now? :P Only because LEEROY JENKINS is a cool guyand is acceptably good. Or if it's you. But other than that, I only take gwfs when we need a fifth badly, or I blindly invited one and it's unethical to kick them on the basis of their class. I don't care if they have Slam or not but it'd be nice if they hit things every once in a while. That's it. And I would say the same for guardian fighters. Only because <person on friend list> is a cool person.
Unrelated: Oh yeah, since you're checking forums and not in-game mail, do you want that Ancient GWF sword thing I found today?
Why would anyone take a GWF to an instance now? :P Only because LEEROY JENKINS is a cool guyand is acceptably good. Or if it's you. But other than that, I only take gwfs when we need a fifth badly, or I blindly invited one and it's unethical to kick them on the basis of their class. I don't care if they have Slam or not but it'd be nice if they hit things every once in a while. That's it. And I would say the same for guardian fighters. Only because <person on friend list> is a cool person.
Unrelated: Oh yeah, since you're checking forums and not in-game mail, do you want that Ancient GWF sword thing I found today?
Lol at all of that =P
And yes I would love that ancient GWF weapon thingy haha. However maybe I should wait to see if they nerf the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of my build to equip it as I really only have interest in GWF for PvP.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Comments
If my comment about the dungeon mechanics needing a change is cheap then why you follow up by saying TANK is not needed. This is a confirmation that what I am saying is 100% correct. If you are OK with a game that creates End-game content where a "Tank" is not needed yet have 2 classes geared towards tanking, then dont complain about what they are doing to GWFs at all. Whether as a Tank or a melee DPS, you need to throw that GWF character in the trash if you honestly feel that the content is perfectly fine.
How do you know if the new classes won't suffer from the same issue? Do you have some insight that we aren't preview to? Everyone is so excited about Rangers, yet we know nothing of how they will play it. For all I know it might be simply a standard Range class. Do you know if it will have any real utility? Will it be able to punt and bug red wizards in CN? If it isn't, guess what? They won't be needed as well. Unless you give every class a way to deal with all the end-game boss mechanics in an >equally< (keyword) efficient manner, then taking a CW over any other class will be more useful. In summary, the problem is with the content, not the classes.
No i do not know the new classes wont suffer but considering the two new classes are supposed to be DPS in a DPS game where do you think that leaves the meh dps class that doesnt bring a hell of a lot more to the table?
Changing the content in dungeons would be a huge task for them to do.. And I doubt that will ever happen.. They would have to pretty much wipe the content and start over.. Lets face it.. That isn't going to happen...so adjusting GWF to fit a role to how "they thought dungeons were intended to be run" opposed to "actually how they are run" is not the right thing to do... And will just kill the class instead.. They need to accept how the content is being played and make changes accordingly.. And I'm afraid this change is the opposite of that...complete opposite.. The only thing that will get GWF in more content is to increase there dps.. That's it.. Nothing else is needed... Dungeons are about killing adds and bosses as fast as possible ... And if your class does not assist that then you are not needed... And this update rolls the GwF right down that road...
Is there a way to have powers/feats/items work one way in PvE and another way on PvP. From all these posts I am reading (And I may be wrong) it seems many of the NERFS are coming from specific builds in PVP decimating other players so instead of changing the class in PVP it is being changed for both PVP and PVE.
No this is not a DPS game, it is a CW game. Only ONE boss in the game is a dps race, and that's the Spider Queen. Even then it's been done without TRs. So what is the use of TRs beyond sneaking to the camp fires and have the rest of the group teleport? Obviously we all have different experiences about the classes. But if a GWF can get a group to Draco in 20minutes, I would take him over a TR. All you need is someone to grab the attention of the boss until the red wizards are bugged, and a GWF can do that with one hand tied behind his back. With a few changes to the mechanics of boss fights, I see GWFs bringing more to the table than TRs.
But again, that's not what I am looking for. I am looking for mechanics that either give all classes the same opportunity to overcome, OR mechanics that requires you to bring the right mix of classes.
Like I said before, giving GWFs more dps will not solve the problem whatsoever. It may however appease some people and temporarily limit the complaints. And that's exactly what they did. A month ago everyone had their GWFs collecting dust. Hec, they weren't even seen in PvP. They got a buff, and everyone took their GWF off the shelf. All the gear, weapons rose in prices. Now the forum is starting again with complaints about the class and how useless it is in groups. Sure the damage to Slam is adding to the hysteria, but it is not like GWFs were being invited because groups felt Slam was pivotal in clearing dungeons.
You may be right. But if that's the case, then you need to worry about a lot more than GWF being viable. If Cryptic wants longterm success, they will have to change the mechanics. Your solution of adapting the classes into the same tunnel vision dps role will eventually cause the game to die. So you need to give GWFs more dps. Then you also need to give GFs more dps. Then you will need to increase TRs Single target dps because they will complain that GWF are now close to theirs, but higher in terms of AoE. Either that or give TRs more AoE. Why stop there? There is definitely room for a DC dps. They need to increase the top tree damage output of DCs.
Since there is no need for tanks, no need for more than one healer, everyone else needs to put out relevantly equal dps or the complaints will never stop.
The game is just 4 months old, and technically still in Beta. It is probably the BEST time to make "real" changes, not patching the water leaks.
Your logic of having powers perform differently in PvE vs PvP is very sound and logical. Unfortunately logic is not what drives a micro-transaction game. The problem is and has always been one thing; the Tenebrous enchant. Remove it from the game, and 75% of the PvP complaints will be eliminated.
No but without slam there is absolutely no reason to bring a GWF.. None at all.. Dungeons are being competed very fast without the dumb "utility slam" it isn't needed... People don't need that to clear dungeons easily.. It is a waste of time.. And In no way will help a GWF get a party..a GWF only takes the place of a TR in a party that's it. Take away the dps and that's not gonna happen now..
DEVS GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!! MAKE ADJUSTMENTS ACCORDING TO HOW YOUR CONTENT IS BEING PLAYED.. NOT HOW YOU THOUGHT IT WOULD BE!!!
Utility of a GWF has no purpose in a party when all the needed utility already exists..
If you make this change please send me a change class token as I would gladly delete my GWF after this..
I understand where you're coming from, and it is not where the majority are. If you are farming 5 CN runs in 2 hours, this change is a nerf, sure. If you run with a group that kills Draco in under 5min, then yes this is a nerf to the class. But at least 80% of the players base are nowhere near that. And those 80% will make more use of the 15% party mitigation than the 60% loss in dps of slam.
A Tr with a pocket knife or a cw with a tennis ball would be more use
I don't agree with that at all... Primarily due to the fact that the mitigation adds nothing ... It isn't needed.. A cw and tr add all the required utility needed In runs.. This 15% isn't even close to what they bring and will not help in any way at all.. People wi still take a cw every time over that.. Mitigation hasn't been a problem so far so why do u think this will help?? The people I have spoken too.. Many .. ALL say they will NOT bring a GWF for this bonus.. So that means they have nothing left
Ok lets talk numbers then. In a CN run, we need to first agree that the only important fight is the last boss. Everything else is trivial. You also say you use Slam on bosses, so we'll take that into perspective. Feel free to adjust the damage numbers based on your gear, although I dont think it would be far off.
Avg Slam on Draco will do probably around 12k damage in total (using my stats + SoS + Plaguefire)
Assuming you can pop Slam every 20 seconds. So that's 600 damage per second.
I know there are some groups that kill him in 3min, but lets be conservative. Let say with a decent group the fight would be about 6minutes. That's 6x60= 360 seconds.
So Slam would contribute to 216,000 damage during the entire fight.
With the upcoming nerf, you would instead do 86,400 damage instead.
So for the entire fight you would be doing almost 130,000 damage less.
You're telling me, your core group of buddies will kick you out of their CN run over 130k damage on Draco?
So all the runs of any T1/T2s all run perfectly smooth for everyone. There are no wipes, no deaths, no quitting over not being able to complete a run. Pretty much everyone is farming all the content without any issues. Maybe you should tell your DC to not bother with Foresight. I know GWFs are pretty durable. Have you played a squishy class? There is absolutely nothing wrong with extra mitigation for the "majority" of the playerbase.
Now secondly GWF already has such a massive stigma attached to the class already.. A majority already won't party one.. Now with a known nerf.. Within the community what effect do u think that will have on the prescription of a GWF?
Now currently GWF single target dps is around 20% that of a TR either way tis nerf will decrease that.. Whether its by not stacking slam or some changes to feat setup.. GWF can not afford to lose at dps.. It's single target is already embaressing... Also using slam at Draco If find very helpful to clear the archers without wasting time targeting them.. This is a major need to this strategy.. I can dps Draco.. Use slam and pull the archers and dps them.. Allowing the party to ignore them.. Usually on 2nd slam I can clear them.. Without having to target them.. Without my party having to target them... My survivability is good enough to take there damage while I dps Draco.. Now slams dps will make this alot harder..
Now lets look at what the current GWF can contribute to a party
Inferior single target dps
Inferior survivability
Inferior control
Arguably superior aoe dps
After patch lets look
Inferior single target dps
Inferior survivability
Inferior control
Inferior aoe dps
Inferior party survivability/mitigation
That's leaves is inferior at everything..
Now lets look at what's needed in a party
Survivability
Dps
Control
That's it.. Nothing else. We are so inferior at all of that.. There is absolutely no point at bringing one
This slam mitigation does not provide anything close to the extra survivability that a DC provides.. It's vastly inferior..
And because of that its worthless...
The devs must learn that continuing to add inferior mechanics to GWF is just making the class worse..
This is another example of that.. And at the coat of maybe our only superior mechanic.. It's a joke..
They need to make adjustments that brings something unique to the party setup from a GWF.. Not make adjustments that brings trash mechanics that are not needed..
This path is absolute death to gWF is pve completely
A GWF survivability is inferior to a gf.. I think you take for granted too much the buffs and help you are getting from others in your party... As it is.. In terms of survivability without the help of others GF>GWF and I don't know how u can argue against that..
And to be honest I'm starting to think that you may even be a TR trolling in order to get the GWF nerfed....
Either that or your endgame experience has not reached the top teir yet.. Cause at the top this is a massive nerf... Probably to the point of bringing the GWF below the point where it got buffed..
When you are running with parties that know what they are doing.. This change provides nothing to a party at all
How dose A GF have more survivability then a GWF i would kill to be able to have 50% deflect chance on my GF like on my GWF Id kill for unstoppable instead of block i would kill to have high enough weapon dmg to make life steal worth stacking on my GF coupled with High Regen armor sets. Ok i am Conc Tree but really GWF HAs WAY BETTER survivability then GF but then again i dont PvE Much and them sent GWF can take a beating.
A pve built pve survivability just isn't that great without the buffs of DC and control of CW.. I mean neithe is a GF.. Unstoppable does save u but once that pops u are dead very quickly without appropriate help
Maybe, just maybe, they have tools that show the damage records of dungs, and GWF DOUBLING any other toon, the problem is not the lack of DPS of GWF, never been, the problem of GWF is the lack of a role, but right now, GWFs (good spec and well geared) are megapowerful (and fun to play), just get 1 good gwf on a dung and look at the results, devs have tools that show that, so they nerf because its the easiest (and cheapest) solution, and btw, in PvP GWFs are the best class right now, so they nerfed a little GWF after nerfing a lot TRs, you may not like it, but is the case, instead of crying about the nerf, ask devs to desing dungs without ledges... then GWF will be the first toon to be needed.
That's the truth, GWFs have a ROLE problem, not a dps one, not an utility one, theyre a 5th wheel, but right now theyre awesome powerful, the problem is not the slam nerf... the problem is the ledges in CN/T2 dungs, without ledges, with a dungeon design more GWF friendly, GWFs would be the best class without any kind of doubt, they are already in PvP... so less QQ and more constructive criticism and ideas on how to improve the dungeons for the class.
After this nerf why would anyone take a GWF to an instance over a GF for tank or over a TR for damage? Again you are going way overboard with this because of some PvP complainers, just like you did with the TR. Please stop nerfing the classes that are OP b/c of Tene's and nerf the stupid enchant!! This is why people cry unbalanced, not the classes. I believe GWF are completely balanced in PvP anyway. You didn't nerf GF so apparently you thought they we're balanced, they can take quite a bit of damage while still dealing HUGE burst. GWF can become more tanky the GF however their damage is less than half with very little burst, more than a fair trade-off.
Nerfing classes b/c of PvP whiners has to stop, I have 60 of every class except DC (he's 52) and I PvP with all of them. With 2 prones and good DPS backing them up you can kill even the tankiest GWF before he does unstoppable. But when you send in 1 TR to handle him, and the TR simply can't hurt him, that doesn't mean the GWF is OP, that means your team is not countering him properly.
Stop doing needless nerfs please and take care of the root problem of Tenes.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
GWF Sent build (without tene's is just right) the other trees probably need some buff bat love. Destroyers need a bit more survivability, I think the Instigator line is also just right.
Kill tenebrous enchants in PvP and 90% of complaints in PvP are gone.
The devs have already shown they won't make the right decision for the game.. If tene's make them money then they won't stop that... But nerfing the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the worst class in pve already.. Shows not only are they greedy but they are also dumb af!
This! This should be more than enough incentive, don't understand why entire classes are rebalanced over PvP when tweaking this one item would make everything better.
Better yet you could just tweak them, only 1 can go off at a time, longer CD etc. I know you've sold a lot of lockboxes because of these but seriously it has to be less than 3% of players that can afford 7 Gtenes. Are you going to continually nerf the 97% so that the 3% can continue to happily destroy everyone?
PS: No matter how much you nerf the classes there are always going to be complaints about this b/c you simply can't achieve balance when people can double their burst with a couple of enchants.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Well put, but as someone already said, this is clearly about MONEY. Everyone's know about the tene problem for several weeks, or most good players anyway. The only reason Cryptic won't touch tene is it's making them good money at the moment because everyone wants them. Same thing with vorpal, but it doesn't have a problem. This proposed change to Slam is simply <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, there's nothing else to say. We need to hold good DPS in dungeons to make our class viable. I've been topping damage charts, always around 1st or 2nd place, and now I can forget it. I drop a daily once every 10 seconds or so, depending on the mob around, and attacking adds has just gone to **** if I lose this. The idea, idiot devs, is to enable me to whittle away at a number of enemies' life bars overall. Makes sense, no? Then yes, it must need nerfed!
Avalanche for AOE is far superior and has no target cap AND it knocks things down/interrupt.
Slam will rock only if they remove the target cap and make the interrupt every tick.
P.S. THE DPS spec is INSTIGATOR....that is all.
P.S INSTIGATOR is the by far worst DPS spec That is all also Avalanche dose no were neer as much dps as current slam dose
Slam does close to 1k per tick (rounding up) to 5 targets for 12 seconds. 60k total.
Avalanche does (rounding down) 10k to 10 mobs and knocks them prone. 100k total.
Come again how is slam superior in a heavy add fight?
That is also before factoring in Blitz.
P.S. If you are on Mindflayer I will be happy to take you on a run and put your spec up against my Instigator spec.
Then you have clearly shown that it is a DPS loss over Slam. Slam is roughly 10k-12k right now, but it is fire and forget. So you need to account for all the time spent flying in the air using AoS, that you could have been spamming At-Wills. So considering that slam, in a sense, allows you to do at least twice as much damage during the same amount of time. You can probably manage a good 50k-100k of At-wills during the animation time of AoS.
edit: lol you quickly changed your post.
I imagine those that use slam are destroyer spec and receive the +25% power while slam is active, not to mention the 12 seconds of slowing (and I think at least the slowing portion affects more than 5 mobs)
When I was destroyer I used slam for the power boost, with good ap generation you can have it up quite often. Not to mention during avalanche you are out of the fight and can't attack, but are free to use all other abilities (and with 25% more power) while slam is active.
avalanche is great for burst in PvP, but I generally use slam there too for the long term slowing more than damage.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Unrelated: Oh yeah, since you're checking forums and not in-game mail, do you want that Ancient GWF sword thing I found today?
Lol at all of that =P
And yes I would love that ancient GWF weapon thingy haha. However maybe I should wait to see if they nerf the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of my build to equip it as I really only have interest in GWF for PvP.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.