now when i add to con i got - to arm pen that is nerf ther is no reason to go sentinel build because u cant add to con to dont get to much -% for example 20 con is -10% to arm pen they nerf again sentinel build now we can make only build that use dex and str
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fallenangel1911Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 17Arc User
edited August 2013
Um, you do realize that Constitution adds to ignoring an enemy's resistance, not your own...right? Your post is kinda hard to read.
In the past mmorpgs I have played.. I play one class.. One character.. That's it I'm not interested in making another.. And to suggest that "playing a different class" as a response to a stupid nerf just indicates that you as well think that they are making a mistake..
Constructive criticism? How about this? Buff GWF dps that's what they need to get any relevance in pve.. Not a nerf.. People claim they are OP in sentinel build in pvp.. This is ONLY caused by those dumb tene enchants that they devs refuse to nerf.. Also another dumb thing... And I'm not complaining that they will nerf the deflection bonus.. Cause if they are OP as that build in pvp then sure fix it... But to nerf one of the only good dps attacks they have for pve is just plain crazy..
DEVS GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD 90% Of the community won't party a GWF because there dps is TOO LOW!!! And now play with the idea to nerf GWF BEST dps skill???
Please tell me the devs have an extra chromosome or something so I can explain there incompetence...
Oh and FIX THE UNSTOPPABLE BUG omfg!!! U nerf and do nothing about this
Please also add a face palm emotion so I can spam
It here please
PANDAPAUL for gwf president
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
edited August 2013
I have respec my GWF build probably about 10 times playing with different setups.. I know what works in pve and what doesn't..
This change to slam does NOT provide any assistance for GWF to get parties and here is why.
Firstly.. Dungeons consist of throwing 90% of adds off cliffs and into holes.. Whether this is intended or not.. This is reality.. Not playing this way results in not getting into a party to begin with.. Simple... Now 15% mitigation from slam will do what exactly when all the adds get thrown off a cliff? Please devs come here and tell me how that is going to help. I want to know.. Cause it won't!! I sounds ok in theory but In application it's fail...
Secondly lets look at what roles GWF can actually take in dungeons... We can tank abit.. In a good party a GWF tanking ability is good enough to play that role.. In a pug or not very experienced party we just aren't a good enough tank.. We need CW add controls to help us tank effectively.. So lets nerf deflection on all GWF... Great now we are even worse tankers than before. Fail again.. Let me add that if the sentinel tree has too much survivability in pvp.. Then readjust the sentinel tree.. Don't nerf bravery which will severely hinder destroyers class at survivability when we already don't have much of it..
Now the only somewhat useful build I have found useful in pve for GWF is a dps build.. With very high recovery.. I use my skills to charge AP as much as possible. So I can spam slam.. I mostly do CN.. So in the middle part of CN where the mobs need to be cleared I have some use spamming slam here as we enter rooms to provide quite alot of dps.. 60% nerf of damage to slam will destroy my build completely.. I don't need the mitigation bonus because the CW keep the group of adds pushed up against the walls.. They don't take much damage.. So this bonus to mitigation is not useful at all... Fail again..
Now once we get to end bosses what use does a GWF? The answer is dps.. Not tr dps but a decent destroyer has ok decent dps.. Most bosses Slam is the ONLY useable daily.. Crescendo is a piece of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> here completely.. The animation is so **** long that once used it is very common to find u land in a "fresh red circle" that appeared while u were in animation.. And u land straight into it.. Left with not enough time to use GWF.. Which has a FAIL sprint mechanic already.. So you can risk instant death using this daily.. So at the end boss I use slam for dps again.. So this as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> me..
Again if sentinel tree is a problem In pvp.. Adjust the **** tree!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are u so <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to not understand that. The class is struggling already.. And now u want to adjust it to make it worse....
I'm sorry but devs have dropped the ball with GWF now... Had enough of this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
Firstly.. Dungeons consist of throwing 90% of adds off cliffs and into holes.. Whether this is intended or not.. This is reality.. Not playing this way results in not getting into a party to begin with.. Simple... Now 15% mitigation from slam will do what exactly when all the adds get thrown off a cliff? Please devs come here and tell me how that is going to help. I want to know.. Cause it won't!! I sounds ok in theory but In application it's fail...
TOTALLY exaggerated to make a point. And how is increasing the GWF dps changes this mechanic, I have no idea. Isn't that what you suggested before? Like I said before, there is absolutely NO issue with GWF dps. If you wanted more Single target dps, then you should have rolled a TR. And how exactly did more damage on Slam solve the punting mechanic? How does your 60% more damage on Slam help the party from wiping?
Secondly lets look at what roles GWF can actually take in dungeons... We can tank abit.. In a good party a GWF tanking ability is good enough to play that role.. In a pug or not very experienced party we just aren't a good enough tank.. We need CW add controls to help us tank effectively.. So lets nerf deflection on all GWF... Great now we are even worse tankers than before. Fail again.. Let me add that if the sentinel tree has too much survivability in pvp.. Then readjust the sentinel tree.. Don't nerf bravery which will severely hinder destroyers class at survivability when we already don't have much of it..
Wrong again. Geared right, a Destroyer GWF can tank any T2, even better than GF in many situations. I know because I have done it, with good groups and PUG groups. Tanking while giving the rest of the party an extra 15% mitigation and doing a mass Interrupt in addition to our Roar interrupt, is definitely a welcomed addition.
Now the only somewhat useful build I have found useful in pve for GWF is a dps build.. With very high recovery.. I use my skills to charge AP as much as possible. So I can spam slam.. I mostly do CN.. So in the middle part of CN where the mobs need to be cleared I have some use spamming slam here as we enter rooms to provide quite alot of dps.. 60% nerf of damage to slam will destroy my build completely.. I don't need the mitigation bonus because the CW keep the group of adds pushed up against the walls.. They don't take much damage.. So this bonus to mitigation is not useful at all... Fail again..
Have you looked at a damage parse of a GWF? Yes Slam as a damage Daily is decent, but nowhere near the bulk of a Destroyer's damage.
Now once we get to end bosses what use does a GWF? The answer is dps.. Not tr dps but a decent destroyer has ok decent dps.. Most bosses Slam is the ONLY useable daily.. Crescendo is a piece of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> here completely.. The animation is so **** long that once used it is very common to find u land in a "fresh red circle" that appeared while u were in animation.. And u land straight into it.. Left with not enough time to use GWF.. Which has a FAIL sprint mechanic already.. So you can risk instant death using this daily.. So at the end boss I use slam for dps again.. So this as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> me..
Good thing you didn't write this paragraph at the begining, because I would have stopped Reading. First of all, if you bothered to read the Patch Notes, Crescendo will give you cc immunity now so it will certainly be more viable. Saying that Slam is the Daily to use on Boss is silly. Not only would you get unwanted threat of nearby mobs, certainly not something you want in CN for sure, but also nowhere near the damage you would get from Savage Advance. Standing right by the boss would make SA almost as fast as popping Slam, while doing more burst. If you are too worried about dying from Boss AoEs, Steel Defense is awesome, especially with a fast AP regen spec.
I am sorry, but I am not seeing any good points in your arguments.
Again if sentinel tree is a problem In pvp.. Adjust the **** tree!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are u so <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to not understand that. The class is struggling already.. And now u want to adjust it to make it worse....
I'm sorry but devs have dropped the ball with GWF now... Had enough of this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
The Sentinel tree on its own is not a problem. It is the freakin Tenebrous enchants that turns a completely defensive spec into both defensive + offensive burst. If the Devs are dropping the ball on anything, it is DEFINITELY the stubbornness with keeping this enchant in the game. But of course, we all know what drives this specific decision and it has nothing to do with game balance.
Worst part about patch notes is the 60% reduction in Slam also Means 60% less threat for the kiting GWF. As a GWF I can kite all the Adds on on Karru Bosses, FH Hirmnir, CN third boss, and let the double CW just use there very powerful Ice knife to single target DPS better than ANy GWF could ever single target DPS the boss.
This is how I made myself known as a Bad *** GWF and got into my Guilds CN groups while I watch all other GWF's never get invites. However even with slam the way it is the CW's need to work with the GWF who wants to kite and not AOE his mobs. a GWF cannot keep threat of Anyone other class who is focused DPS any mob. The slam Damage nerf Must not happen it will kill a GWF's viability for PVE invites we are struggling already.
I like the defense buff from slam I understand the deflection Nerf only because of this buff. But you can't nerf the GWFs damage and threat. If you are going to nerf the Damage Let Bravery have a 60% all threat Buff. So it becomes the tanking passive.
Worst part about patch notes is the 60% reduction in Slam also Means 60% less threat for the kiting GWF. As a GWF I can kite all the Adds on on Karru Bosses, FH Hirmnir, CN third boss, and let the double CW just use there very powerful Ice knife to single target DPS better than ANy GWF could ever single target DPS the boss.
This is how I made myself known as a Bad *** GWF and got into my Guilds CN groups while I watch all other GWF's never get invites. However even with slam the way it is the CW's need to work with the GWF who wants to kite and not AOE his mobs. a GWF cannot keep threat of Anyone other class who is focused DPS any mob. The slam Damage nerf Must not happen it will kill a GWF's viability for PVE invites we are struggling already.
I like the defense buff from slam I understand the deflection Nerf only because of this buff. But you can't nerf the GWFs damage and threat. If you are going to nerf the Damage Let Bravery have a 60% all threat Buff. So it becomes the tanking passive.
You make it seem like Slam is simply an Encounter you're spamming while the mobs are running behind you. How will you get threat you say? Well the same way you are able to generate AP to get Slam up, by attacking.
Worst part about patch notes is the 60% reduction in Slam also Means 60% less threat for the kiting GWF. As a GWF I can kite all the Adds on on Karru Bosses, FH Hirmnir, CN third boss, and let the double CW just use there very powerful Ice knife to single target DPS better than ANy GWF could ever single target DPS the boss.
This is how I made myself known as a Bad *** GWF and got into my Guilds CN groups while I watch all other GWF's never get invites. However even with slam the way it is the CW's need to work with the GWF who wants to kite and not AOE his mobs. a GWF cannot keep threat of Anyone other class who is focused DPS any mob. The slam Damage nerf Must not happen it will kill a GWF's viability for PVE invites we are struggling already.
I like the defense buff from slam I understand the deflection Nerf only because of this buff. But you can't nerf the GWFs damage and threat. If you are going to nerf the Damage Let Bravery have a 60% all threat Buff. So it becomes the tanking passive.
If you think Slam is the end all be all DPS skill for GWF your playing the class wrong and you get invites cause your in a guild with good players that know they can carry you.
Tbh, i could run ahead of everyone kill all the trash mobs leaving the elites and mini bosses at like 40-50% hp and let the rest of the group finnish em. While i ran to the next group of mobs kill all trash there and repeat until we reached a boss, With Sentinel build (and dps eqipments) i didn't need any healing while running dungeons. And could clear the path really fast to bosses. With these new changes i think i might need to stay with the group. It's pretty easy to have slam up on almoast every encounter with some recovery gear and the amount of dmg it does when combined with Unstoppeble speed At will AoE spam, is really really sick. Probobly needs a nerf tbh.
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
TOTALLY exaggerated to make a point. And how is increasing the GWF dps changes this mechanic, I have no idea. Isn't that what you suggested before? Like I said before, there is absolutely NO issue with GWF dps. If you wanted more Single target dps, then you should have rolled a TR. And how exactly did more damage on Slam solve the punting mechanic? How does your 60% more damage on Slam help the party from wiping?
Wrong again. Geared right, a Destroyer GWF can tank any T2, even better than GF in many situations. I know because I have done it, with good groups and PUG groups. Tanking while giving the rest of the party an extra 15% mitigation and doing a mass Interrupt in addition to our Roar interrupt, is definitely a welcomed addition.
Have you looked at a damage parse of a GWF? Yes Slam as a damage Daily is decent, but nowhere near the bulk of a Destroyer's damage.
Good thing you didn't write this paragraph at the begining, because I would have stopped Reading. First of all, if you bothered to read the Patch Notes, Crescendo will give you cc immunity now so it will certainly be more viable. Saying that Slam is the Daily to use on Boss is silly. Not only would you get unwanted threat of nearby mobs, certainly not something you want in CN for sure, but also nowhere near the damage you would get from Savage Advance. Standing right by the boss would make SA almost as fast as popping Slam, while doing more burst. If you are too worried about dying from Boss AoEs, Steel Defense is awesome, especially with a fast AP regen spec.
I am sorry, but I am not seeing any good points in your arguments.
The Sentinel tree on its own is not a problem. It is the freakin Tenebrous enchants that turns a completely defensive spec into both defensive + offensive burst. If the Devs are dropping the ball on anything, it is DEFINITELY the stubbornness with keeping this enchant in the game. But of course, we all know what drives this specific decision and it has nothing to do with game balance.
You are joking right.. How about this.. Try running a dungeon without a cw and DC.. Lets see how far a GWF can tank.. The only reason they can tank viably is because of the control/buffs of other classes... Without them GWF can not tank...
Secondly having cc immunity on crescendo does not help what I'm saying.. Sure it may not be interrupted but when the animation ends and leaves u in a red circle the immunity ends.. And u will find yourself on occasion with no time to react.. So another fail response by you.
And your saying that 90% of trash doesn't go off the cliff??? Really??? Wth almost every trash mob gets pushed off.... If it isn't then people that you are running with aren't aware of the runs...
On the server I play.. Runs consist of running to next cliff.. Push off all adds... Run to next cliff repeat.. That's pretty much it until
U get to the boss..
Anyone that suggests that this change can benefit a GWF getting a t2/CN party is going to live to regret it if this goes live.. Heck a frekkin gf could have more dps have this...
And all this is caused by this dumb sentinel tree and the connection with tene's I agree... And what I suggest is giving destroyer more dps.. That's because that would give ppl a reason to play the tree... Everyone just goes sentinel now because they can't get a party so they may as well spec for pvp... If there was a more viable dps destroyer build then ppl would have a reason to change.. Giving more GWF parties and leaving less sentinels in pvp...
You are joking right.. How about this.. Try running a dungeon without a cw and DC.. Lets see how far a GWF can tank.. The only reason they can tank viably is because of the control/buffs of other classes... Without them GWF can not tank...
I have run Pirate, Karrundax, Spider and FH without a CW. On many PUGs the DC died at 40% of boss health, and still managed to kill it. Last boss in FH was done completely without a CW and DC.
How about you try to add 10% lifesteal on your gear, and come back here and tell me you can't tank unless you're a Sentinel.
Secondly having cc immunity on crescendo does not help what I'm saying.. Sure it may not be interrupted but when the animation ends and leaves u in a red circle the immunity ends.. And u will find yourself on occasion with no time to react.. So another fail response by you.
Convenient to just pick and choose what I said for your responses. How about the part about the Steel Defense? You don't want to slot it? Then dont slot Crescendo either. Either way, it is a great passive, you should try it sometimes.
And your saying that 90% of trash doesn't go off the cliff??? Really??? Wth almost every trash mob gets pushed off.... If it isn't then people that you are running with aren't aware of the runs...
On the server I play.. Runs consist of running to next cliff.. Push off all adds... Run to next cliff repeat.. That's pretty much it until
U get to the boss..
Yes I am saying that 90% of trash going off the cliff is an exaggerated claim.
Anyone that suggests that this change can benefit a GWF getting a t2/CN party is going to live to regret it if this goes live.. Heck a frekkin gf could have more dps have this...
I am pretty sure I am not going to regret it. In fact I welcome it 100%. Anyone who claims that a reduction to the damage of ONE daily is a significant loss to the class, while completely ignoring the benefits that are being added is being extremely dramatic.
And all this is caused by this dumb sentinel tree and the connection with tene's I agree... And what I suggest is giving destroyer more dps.. That's because that would give ppl a reason to play the tree... Everyone just goes sentinel now because they can't get a party so they may as well spec for pvp... If there was a more viable dps destroyer build then ppl would have a reason to change.. Giving more GWF parties and leaving less sentinels in pvp...
I get a Party all the time as a Destroyer. Practically all the people that I know playing GWFs are Destroyer spec. The only real reason to go Sentinel is for cheese PvP exploit spec. Anyone playing Sentinel in PvE is purely out of personal preference, nothing more. Destroyer with Lifesteal, can tank like a beast, do awesome dps, and generate more threat than a Sentinel.
Arguments and debates aside, you really feel it was OK for you to just use Slam as your one and only useful ability. That fact alone should is a good indication that it wasn't balanced damage wise in comparison to the other Dailies. The issue here is that you wanted Slam to be the benchmark of our Dailies and elevate all the other dailies to equal effectiveness, instead of the other way around. Let's be honest, people complain about all the other dailies because they always compared them to Slam.
I have run Pirate, Karrundax, Spider and FH without a CW. On many PUGs the DC died at 40% of boss health, and still managed to kill it. Last boss in FH was done completely without a CW and DC.
How about you try to add 10% lifesteal on your gear, and come back here and tell me you can't tank unless you're a Sentinel.
Convenient to just pick and choose what I said for your responses. How about the part about the Steel Defense? You don't want to slot it? Then dont slot Crescendo either. Either way, it is a great passive, you should try it sometimes.
Yes I am saying that 90% of trash going off the cliff is an exaggerated claim.
I am pretty sure I am not going to regret it. In fact I welcome it 100%. Anyone who claims that a reduction to the damage of ONE daily is a significant loss to the class, while completely ignoring the benefits that are being added is being extremely dramatic.
I get a Party all the time as a Destroyer. Practically all the people that I know playing GWFs are Destroyer spec. The only real reason to go Sentinel is for cheese PvP exploit spec. Anyone playing Sentinel in PvE is purely out of personal preference, nothing more. Destroyer with Lifesteal, can tank like a beast, do awesome dps, and generate more threat than a Sentinel.
Arguments and debates aside, you really feel it was OK for you to just use Slam as your one and only useful ability. That fact alone should is a good indication that it wasn't balanced damage wise in comparison to the other Dailies. The issue here is that you wanted Slam to be the benchmark of our Dailies and elevate all the other dailies to equal effectiveness, instead of the other way around. Let's be honest, people complain about all the other dailies because they always compared them to Slam.
Look I respect what u are trying to say but it just isn't right..
I'm not a **** GWF I have done CN 50+ times.. I have completed CN without a TR many times.. I have had to solo spell last 15%, duo FH 60% with just a tr...
The problem here is they seem to be trying to push GWF down the tanker track too much.. In a game that lets be honest does not need a tanker at all.. In fact bringing a GWF or GF in a party slows down the dungeon very considerably.. I have seen a group in my guild running with 2 TRs 2 CW and DC kill Draco in less than 3 minutes!!!! Kill the endboss in spell in less than 2 minutes.... A tanker just is not needed at all in pve... In this game.. Yes ppl ask for tankers in parties but once they become better and more educated in dungeons they learn it isn't a good idea...
GWF had a decent shot at being a valid dps option with some more tweaks.. Now it seems they are trying to kill that. And this will push the class further back in pve.. Majority of ppl want won't a GWF at all.... Maybe u can get parties.. I can get parties too.. But the fact is that once GWF hit 60 unless they have set groups for pve already. Almost all will not get pve parties... That's a fact.. I have already witnessed the GWF community on my server diminish to only a small group left...
And yes I likes slam.. I had a slam build.. But that is because our other dailys sucked.. And why should I have to slot a feat in order to actually use a daily that isn't that good??? What other class has to waste a feat slot in order to use a daily??!!! Seriously already have to slot encounters to increase AP... So now I have to alot an encounter and a feat to use a daily that only can dps a fraction of the damage of another class dps???? U can't be serious.. Just shows how much a PoS class GWF is becoming
Oh well RIP GWF is about done with this patch... And with it... So am
I.. If this patch goes live in out of NW.. No BS no cries.. I'm done
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sunnysheMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited August 2013
They are doing this to solve the problem of GWF not getting any groups.
U see after nerfing this class to the ground, they are going to introduce class change tokens,
so that every GWF can change to other class.
In the end there are no GWF, problem solved.
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
edited August 2013
And the more I think about it the worse this is
As destroyer dps increases our determination.. Less dps less determination.. Less unstoppable.. Less tanking as well
Need to slots feat to use a daily.. Now less dps again.. Less determination again
Destroyer is ment to be dps build.. And this nerf of slam nerds destroyer more than anything
Look I respect what u are trying to say but it just isn't right..
I'm not a **** GWF I have done CN 50+ times.. I have completed CN without a TR many times.. I have had to solo spell last 15%, duo FH 60% with just a tr...
The problem here is they seem to be trying to push GWF down the tanker track too much.. In a game that lets be honest does not need a tanker at all.. In fact bringing a GWF or GF in a party slows down the dungeon very considerably.. I have seen a group in my guild running with 2 TRs 2 CW and DC kill Draco in less than 3 minutes!!!! Kill the endboss in spell in less than 2 minutes.... A tanker just is not needed at all in pve... In this game.. Yes ppl ask for tankers in parties but once they become better and more educated in dungeons they learn it isn't a good idea...
GWF had a decent shot at being a valid dps option with some more tweaks.. Now it seems they are trying to kill that. And this will push the class further back in pve.. Majority of ppl want won't a GWF at all.... Maybe u can get parties.. I can get parties too.. But the fact is that once GWF hit 60 unless they have set groups for pve already. Almost all will not get pve parties... That's a fact.. I have already witnessed the GWF community on my server diminish to only a small group left...
And yes I likes slam.. I had a slam build.. But that is because our other dailys sucked.. And why should I have to slot a feat in order to actually use a daily that isn't that good??? What other class has to waste a feat slot in order to use a daily??!!! Seriously already have to slot encounters to increase AP... So now I have to alot an encounter and a feat to use a daily that only can dps a fraction of the damage of another class dps???? U can't be serious.. Just shows how much a PoS class GWF is becoming
Oh well RIP GWF is about done with this patch... And with it... So am
I.. If this patch goes live in out of NW.. No BS no cries.. I'm done
The problem was NEVER GWFs. The problem was and still is the content. Trust me, even if they give GWF a flat 25% dps boost, which would be INSANE, it is still more efficient to take a CW. Hec 3 CWs 1DC 1 TR is more efficient than 2 TRs. Even if that one or two TRs die, the CWs can still finish the fight. Lets be honest, people take TRs to CN not for the dps, but so they can get to Draco in 20min. If/when they fix that, even that 1 TR slot can be replaced.
What you are asking is a band-aid solution. If half of the people complaining about every nerf that took place (and never really changed the effectiveness of the respective classes) put their energy into complaining about the mechanics of end game content, things would be a lot better. Everyone is concerned about their own character, instead of inevitable decline of this game if the content mechanic stays the same, or even worse, the new content being similar in nature.
How is this "nerf" compared to the TR nerf? How is this nerf even remotely close to what they did to DCs?
While I like the idea behind the proposed change to Slam. In my opinion, it's a huge Nerf for PvE, might be a slight buff for PvP.
PvE -
The biggest issue with the change to Slam is they have forgot the biggest, most important fact. Doing damage faster makes monsters dead faster. Dead monsters = no damage output.
As things stand now, most parties have little concerns about how much damage the adds Slam would effect can dish out. Everyone is already used to that damage, so there's little to no reason to have this debuff added to the monsters. All it really does is weaken the PvE position that the GWF already holds. What the fellow GWF party members want to see is dead monsters, not monsters that deal slightly less damage.
HEY, I've a idea. Anyone here know how to make a poll on the front page? All it would have to do is ask a simple question -
Would you be willing to change your classes main DPS daily a reduction in damage to add a -15% rebuff to your targets damage output?
o Yes
o No
Oh wait, never mind, can already make a strong guess on what the response would be. Thing is, that's exactly what this change is going to do for the GWF.
It is true the problem is the Content. But any changes to the GWF that is viewed as a Nerf is a slap in the face of all GWF players. It is this that will cause players to quit the game. Because Cryptic is destroying the class they love a class that is barely getting by as it is.
Look at the patch notes. If you remove all the nerf form it. The Slam Damage reduction and the bravery Deflection nerf. And just kept all the good stuff. Slam Defense bonus and interupt power. The GWF's view by the player base will not change at all. They will still be lack luster in PvE.
GWF need a very significant PvE buff, Dont take a step in one direction of Utility then two steps back in damage. Buff the GWF to the point that players want 2 GWF's in groups as the Ideal situation. Then Think about nerfing it's damage or what-not.
Or better yet just change the content so double CW in All dungeons is not the ideal situation for all players.
As I stated before in this thread, the only thing the game need to balance the classes proper (in terms of pve) is to nerf singularity downright. If they're willing to nerf astral shield in an attempt to reduce dc redundancy, then why not do the same for the cw.
I just don't see any other way of making each class equally viable short giving all other classes but the cw a ridiculous dps boost just to make them warranted.
As I stated before in this thread, the only thing the game need to balance the classes proper (in terms of pve) is to nerf singularity downright. If they're willing to nerf astral shield in an attempt to reduce dc redundancy, then why not do the same for the cw.
I just don't see any other way of making each class equally viable short giving all other classes but the cw a ridiculous dps boost just to make them warranted.
A nerf to the number of enemies affected by AS and getting rid of instant kill pushes would be all that is need to encourage balanced parties.
A nerf to the number of enemies affected by AS and getting rid of instant kill pushes would be all that is need to encourage balanced parties.
Why would you want to gimp your own changes in pve just to have one class feel worthwhile?
I like my GWF for the versatility, speed, debuffing and how it can herd the mobs. What I don't like is how little that means when CW's are pushing everything off everywhere. Maybe if Roar would push just a little harder...
Release Notes: NW.5.20130730a.2
Great Weapon Fighter
Bravery: Ranking up this power now affects Run Speed (+15% at max rank), but the Deflect bonus has been reduced to +8% at max rank.
I find it extraordinarily funny that no one has commented on this yet...
This should really read:
Bravery: Deflect bonus has been reduced to +8% at max rank. That's it, nothing to see here, straight nerf.
Bravery already increases Runspeed by 10 to 15%(at max rank) on live servers(and before someone gets smart and says "maybe it just says so in the ability description but it doesn't actually work", I test every feat and ability I have on wether and how they actually work...Bravery does already give a working Runspeed bonus.). It's like they're trying to pull wool over our eyes with imaginary buffs to balance the very real nerfs...
I find it extraordinarily funny that no one has commented on this yet...
This should really read:
Bravery: Deflect bonus has been reduced to +8% at max rank. That's it, nothing to see here, straight nerf.
Bravery already increases Runspeed by 10 to 15%(at max rank) on live servers(and before someone gets smart and says "maybe it just says so in the ability description but it doesn't actually work", I test every feat and ability I have on wether and how they actually work...Bravery does already give a working Runspeed bonus.). It's like they're trying to pull wool over our eyes with imaginary buffs to balance the very real nerfs...
I would have liked to see the Run Speed affect party members as well. I still say we need more utility not more dps. We need to get party buffs and/or AoE debuff through our Shout mechanics. Come and Get it, needs a HUGE buff (increase the effected area and the speed of the pull and adding a 1 sec daze effect). Reaping Strike should be able to get charged while moving. Sure Strike could use something, maybe a bleed effect on the third hit stacking up to 3x.
Copti im sorry but im going to agree with pandapaul, saying its a problem with the dungeons is kind of a cheap way out of it. The class is already the hardest and least rewarding for the effort to play. You never see someone looking for a second or third GWF for a group. They do sup par damage ( I'm sorry I know we disagree on this but they really do ) vs other classes and just bring less to the table. Now after they have already put out the game and in the start they said that GWF was a DPS class first and TANK second they are trying to change that to a TANK (not needed) class first and a sub par damage. As i keep saying this will only get worse when new classes are introduced. As it stands right now the only thing a GWF might have over anyone else is survivability, but why bring that when you can just bring damage and utility to dungeons?
I find it extraordinarily funny that no one has commented on this yet...
This should really read:
Bravery: Deflect bonus has been reduced to +8% at max rank. That's it, nothing to see here, straight nerf.
Bravery already increases Runspeed by 10 to 15%(at max rank) on live servers(and before someone gets smart and says "maybe it just says so in the ability description but it doesn't actually work", I test every feat and ability I have on wether and how they actually work...Bravery does already give a working Runspeed bonus.). It's like they're trying to pull wool over our eyes with imaginary buffs to balance the very real nerfs...
I think they worded it wrong and were trying to say that ranking up bravery now only effects the run speed bonus and that the deflect was reduced to 8 and not effected at all when ranking the skill up. So i think Bravery will have its run speed reduced to 5 and when ranking it now you get 5% more run speed each rank until you hit 15% but you will not see a increase in the deflection percentage.
Comments
I dont use slam for damage output anyway. I use it for its utility.
I wish they didnt touch the deflecting bonus.
I would agree with that. Or make the damage spread of multiple target significantly less than it is at least.
PANDAPAUL for gwf president
This change to slam does NOT provide any assistance for GWF to get parties and here is why.
Firstly.. Dungeons consist of throwing 90% of adds off cliffs and into holes.. Whether this is intended or not.. This is reality.. Not playing this way results in not getting into a party to begin with.. Simple... Now 15% mitigation from slam will do what exactly when all the adds get thrown off a cliff? Please devs come here and tell me how that is going to help. I want to know.. Cause it won't!! I sounds ok in theory but In application it's fail...
Secondly lets look at what roles GWF can actually take in dungeons... We can tank abit.. In a good party a GWF tanking ability is good enough to play that role.. In a pug or not very experienced party we just aren't a good enough tank.. We need CW add controls to help us tank effectively.. So lets nerf deflection on all GWF... Great now we are even worse tankers than before. Fail again.. Let me add that if the sentinel tree has too much survivability in pvp.. Then readjust the sentinel tree.. Don't nerf bravery which will severely hinder destroyers class at survivability when we already don't have much of it..
Now the only somewhat useful build I have found useful in pve for GWF is a dps build.. With very high recovery.. I use my skills to charge AP as much as possible. So I can spam slam.. I mostly do CN.. So in the middle part of CN where the mobs need to be cleared I have some use spamming slam here as we enter rooms to provide quite alot of dps.. 60% nerf of damage to slam will destroy my build completely.. I don't need the mitigation bonus because the CW keep the group of adds pushed up against the walls.. They don't take much damage.. So this bonus to mitigation is not useful at all... Fail again..
Now once we get to end bosses what use does a GWF? The answer is dps.. Not tr dps but a decent destroyer has ok decent dps.. Most bosses Slam is the ONLY useable daily.. Crescendo is a piece of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> here completely.. The animation is so **** long that once used it is very common to find u land in a "fresh red circle" that appeared while u were in animation.. And u land straight into it.. Left with not enough time to use GWF.. Which has a FAIL sprint mechanic already.. So you can risk instant death using this daily.. So at the end boss I use slam for dps again.. So this as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> me..
Again if sentinel tree is a problem In pvp.. Adjust the **** tree!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are u so <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to not understand that. The class is struggling already.. And now u want to adjust it to make it worse....
I'm sorry but devs have dropped the ball with GWF now... Had enough of this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
TOTALLY exaggerated to make a point. And how is increasing the GWF dps changes this mechanic, I have no idea. Isn't that what you suggested before? Like I said before, there is absolutely NO issue with GWF dps. If you wanted more Single target dps, then you should have rolled a TR. And how exactly did more damage on Slam solve the punting mechanic? How does your 60% more damage on Slam help the party from wiping?
Wrong again. Geared right, a Destroyer GWF can tank any T2, even better than GF in many situations. I know because I have done it, with good groups and PUG groups. Tanking while giving the rest of the party an extra 15% mitigation and doing a mass Interrupt in addition to our Roar interrupt, is definitely a welcomed addition.
Have you looked at a damage parse of a GWF? Yes Slam as a damage Daily is decent, but nowhere near the bulk of a Destroyer's damage.
Good thing you didn't write this paragraph at the begining, because I would have stopped Reading. First of all, if you bothered to read the Patch Notes, Crescendo will give you cc immunity now so it will certainly be more viable. Saying that Slam is the Daily to use on Boss is silly. Not only would you get unwanted threat of nearby mobs, certainly not something you want in CN for sure, but also nowhere near the damage you would get from Savage Advance. Standing right by the boss would make SA almost as fast as popping Slam, while doing more burst. If you are too worried about dying from Boss AoEs, Steel Defense is awesome, especially with a fast AP regen spec.
I am sorry, but I am not seeing any good points in your arguments.
The Sentinel tree on its own is not a problem. It is the freakin Tenebrous enchants that turns a completely defensive spec into both defensive + offensive burst. If the Devs are dropping the ball on anything, it is DEFINITELY the stubbornness with keeping this enchant in the game. But of course, we all know what drives this specific decision and it has nothing to do with game balance.
the only thing I can say about GWF right now is thier damage splitting through multiple targets.
Other than that, Gwf is and has been in a pretty good balanced positions since that major patch that buffed them up quite good.
This is how I made myself known as a Bad *** GWF and got into my Guilds CN groups while I watch all other GWF's never get invites. However even with slam the way it is the CW's need to work with the GWF who wants to kite and not AOE his mobs. a GWF cannot keep threat of Anyone other class who is focused DPS any mob. The slam Damage nerf Must not happen it will kill a GWF's viability for PVE invites we are struggling already.
I like the defense buff from slam I understand the deflection Nerf only because of this buff. But you can't nerf the GWFs damage and threat. If you are going to nerf the Damage Let Bravery have a 60% all threat Buff. So it becomes the tanking passive.
You make it seem like Slam is simply an Encounter you're spamming while the mobs are running behind you. How will you get threat you say? Well the same way you are able to generate AP to get Slam up, by attacking.
If you think Slam is the end all be all DPS skill for GWF your playing the class wrong and you get invites cause your in a guild with good players that know they can carry you.
You are joking right.. How about this.. Try running a dungeon without a cw and DC.. Lets see how far a GWF can tank.. The only reason they can tank viably is because of the control/buffs of other classes... Without them GWF can not tank...
Secondly having cc immunity on crescendo does not help what I'm saying.. Sure it may not be interrupted but when the animation ends and leaves u in a red circle the immunity ends.. And u will find yourself on occasion with no time to react.. So another fail response by you.
And your saying that 90% of trash doesn't go off the cliff??? Really??? Wth almost every trash mob gets pushed off.... If it isn't then people that you are running with aren't aware of the runs...
On the server I play.. Runs consist of running to next cliff.. Push off all adds... Run to next cliff repeat.. That's pretty much it until
U get to the boss..
Anyone that suggests that this change can benefit a GWF getting a t2/CN party is going to live to regret it if this goes live.. Heck a frekkin gf could have more dps have this...
And all this is caused by this dumb sentinel tree and the connection with tene's I agree... And what I suggest is giving destroyer more dps.. That's because that would give ppl a reason to play the tree... Everyone just goes sentinel now because they can't get a party so they may as well spec for pvp... If there was a more viable dps destroyer build then ppl would have a reason to change.. Giving more GWF parties and leaving less sentinels in pvp...
I have run Pirate, Karrundax, Spider and FH without a CW. On many PUGs the DC died at 40% of boss health, and still managed to kill it. Last boss in FH was done completely without a CW and DC.
How about you try to add 10% lifesteal on your gear, and come back here and tell me you can't tank unless you're a Sentinel.
Convenient to just pick and choose what I said for your responses. How about the part about the Steel Defense? You don't want to slot it? Then dont slot Crescendo either. Either way, it is a great passive, you should try it sometimes.
Yes I am saying that 90% of trash going off the cliff is an exaggerated claim.
I am pretty sure I am not going to regret it. In fact I welcome it 100%. Anyone who claims that a reduction to the damage of ONE daily is a significant loss to the class, while completely ignoring the benefits that are being added is being extremely dramatic.
I get a Party all the time as a Destroyer. Practically all the people that I know playing GWFs are Destroyer spec. The only real reason to go Sentinel is for cheese PvP exploit spec. Anyone playing Sentinel in PvE is purely out of personal preference, nothing more. Destroyer with Lifesteal, can tank like a beast, do awesome dps, and generate more threat than a Sentinel.
Arguments and debates aside, you really feel it was OK for you to just use Slam as your one and only useful ability. That fact alone should is a good indication that it wasn't balanced damage wise in comparison to the other Dailies. The issue here is that you wanted Slam to be the benchmark of our Dailies and elevate all the other dailies to equal effectiveness, instead of the other way around. Let's be honest, people complain about all the other dailies because they always compared them to Slam.
Look I respect what u are trying to say but it just isn't right..
I'm not a **** GWF I have done CN 50+ times.. I have completed CN without a TR many times.. I have had to solo spell last 15%, duo FH 60% with just a tr...
The problem here is they seem to be trying to push GWF down the tanker track too much.. In a game that lets be honest does not need a tanker at all.. In fact bringing a GWF or GF in a party slows down the dungeon very considerably.. I have seen a group in my guild running with 2 TRs 2 CW and DC kill Draco in less than 3 minutes!!!! Kill the endboss in spell in less than 2 minutes.... A tanker just is not needed at all in pve... In this game.. Yes ppl ask for tankers in parties but once they become better and more educated in dungeons they learn it isn't a good idea...
GWF had a decent shot at being a valid dps option with some more tweaks.. Now it seems they are trying to kill that. And this will push the class further back in pve.. Majority of ppl want won't a GWF at all.... Maybe u can get parties.. I can get parties too.. But the fact is that once GWF hit 60 unless they have set groups for pve already. Almost all will not get pve parties... That's a fact.. I have already witnessed the GWF community on my server diminish to only a small group left...
And yes I likes slam.. I had a slam build.. But that is because our other dailys sucked.. And why should I have to slot a feat in order to actually use a daily that isn't that good??? What other class has to waste a feat slot in order to use a daily??!!! Seriously already have to slot encounters to increase AP... So now I have to alot an encounter and a feat to use a daily that only can dps a fraction of the damage of another class dps???? U can't be serious.. Just shows how much a PoS class GWF is becoming
Oh well RIP GWF is about done with this patch... And with it... So am
I.. If this patch goes live in out of NW.. No BS no cries.. I'm done
U see after nerfing this class to the ground, they are going to introduce class change tokens,
so that every GWF can change to other class.
In the end there are no GWF, problem solved.
As destroyer dps increases our determination.. Less dps less determination.. Less unstoppable.. Less tanking as well
Need to slots feat to use a daily.. Now less dps again.. Less determination again
Destroyer is ment to be dps build.. And this nerf of slam nerds destroyer more than anything
What a PoS game
The problem was NEVER GWFs. The problem was and still is the content. Trust me, even if they give GWF a flat 25% dps boost, which would be INSANE, it is still more efficient to take a CW. Hec 3 CWs 1DC 1 TR is more efficient than 2 TRs. Even if that one or two TRs die, the CWs can still finish the fight. Lets be honest, people take TRs to CN not for the dps, but so they can get to Draco in 20min. If/when they fix that, even that 1 TR slot can be replaced.
What you are asking is a band-aid solution. If half of the people complaining about every nerf that took place (and never really changed the effectiveness of the respective classes) put their energy into complaining about the mechanics of end game content, things would be a lot better. Everyone is concerned about their own character, instead of inevitable decline of this game if the content mechanic stays the same, or even worse, the new content being similar in nature.
How is this "nerf" compared to the TR nerf? How is this nerf even remotely close to what they did to DCs?
PvE -
The biggest issue with the change to Slam is they have forgot the biggest, most important fact. Doing damage faster makes monsters dead faster. Dead monsters = no damage output.
As things stand now, most parties have little concerns about how much damage the adds Slam would effect can dish out. Everyone is already used to that damage, so there's little to no reason to have this debuff added to the monsters. All it really does is weaken the PvE position that the GWF already holds. What the fellow GWF party members want to see is dead monsters, not monsters that deal slightly less damage.
HEY, I've a idea. Anyone here know how to make a poll on the front page? All it would have to do is ask a simple question -
Would you be willing to change your classes main DPS daily a reduction in damage to add a -15% rebuff to your targets damage output?
o Yes
o No
Oh wait, never mind, can already make a strong guess on what the response would be. Thing is, that's exactly what this change is going to do for the GWF.
Look at the patch notes. If you remove all the nerf form it. The Slam Damage reduction and the bravery Deflection nerf. And just kept all the good stuff. Slam Defense bonus and interupt power. The GWF's view by the player base will not change at all. They will still be lack luster in PvE.
GWF need a very significant PvE buff, Dont take a step in one direction of Utility then two steps back in damage. Buff the GWF to the point that players want 2 GWF's in groups as the Ideal situation. Then Think about nerfing it's damage or what-not.
Or better yet just change the content so double CW in All dungeons is not the ideal situation for all players.
I just don't see any other way of making each class equally viable short giving all other classes but the cw a ridiculous dps boost just to make them warranted.
A nerf to the number of enemies affected by AS and getting rid of instant kill pushes would be all that is need to encourage balanced parties.
Why would you want to gimp your own changes in pve just to have one class feel worthwhile?
I like my GWF for the versatility, speed, debuffing and how it can herd the mobs. What I don't like is how little that means when CW's are pushing everything off everywhere. Maybe if Roar would push just a little harder...
I have no idea what you are talking about here, as the rest of your post is basically taking exactly the same viewpoint as me.
Unless you didn't get that AS = Arcane Singularity which is a CW ability?
I find it extraordinarily funny that no one has commented on this yet...
This should really read:
Bravery already increases Runspeed by 10 to 15%(at max rank) on live servers(and before someone gets smart and says "maybe it just says so in the ability description but it doesn't actually work", I test every feat and ability I have on wether and how they actually work...Bravery does already give a working Runspeed bonus.). It's like they're trying to pull wool over our eyes with imaginary buffs to balance the very real nerfs...
I would have liked to see the Run Speed affect party members as well. I still say we need more utility not more dps. We need to get party buffs and/or AoE debuff through our Shout mechanics. Come and Get it, needs a HUGE buff (increase the effected area and the speed of the pull and adding a 1 sec daze effect). Reaping Strike should be able to get charged while moving. Sure Strike could use something, maybe a bleed effect on the third hit stacking up to 3x.
I think they worded it wrong and were trying to say that ranking up bravery now only effects the run speed bonus and that the deflect was reduced to 8 and not effected at all when ranking the skill up. So i think Bravery will have its run speed reduced to 5 and when ranking it now you get 5% more run speed each rank until you hit 15% but you will not see a increase in the deflection percentage.