If rogues were truly as OP as some claim, the ideal group comp for PVE or PVP would be 5 rogues. The fact that other classes being present allows a rogue to do his part for the team goes a long way to dispel the myth of how OP they are.
It should be doable in most cases, would cost a lot of potions but it's definitely something you can already do in many areas of the game. There are some tricky boss fights requiring a CW and a DC to buy some time for rogues but that's it.
I don't understand why they don't simply have PvP broken down by GS... at level 60 you would have, say, under 6K, 6001 - 8K, 8001 - 9999, and 10K plus, or something.
There would not be enough matches because not enough people play this game.
rogues have exactly one that others dont have and that is stealth
now that this is taken away, they have none
None? All i see is using some encounters powers draining stealth. Just don't use them. Stay alive OR dps like mad. Or hide and do some dps. I'm not sure it's as dramatic as many rogue players say.
I think the rogue nerfs were a long time coming, pretty much since the closed testing. I don't think the pve nerf was unwarranted either. Classes should perform with roughly the same efficiency with each having some advantage or disadvantage compared to the others.
I think you are confusing damage avoidance with tanking. All classes have ways to avoid damage. Only classes specifically designed to tank have abilities that allow them to directly pull aggro from another player. Why do you think that is? Holding aggro is the class-defining ability of a tank.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
None? All i see is using some encounters powers draining stealth. Just don't use them. Stay alive OR dps like mad. Or hide and do some dps. I'm not sure it's as dramatic as many rogue players say.
Are you taking into account that, with these changes, At-Will's will deplete the stealth meter? They don't right now, thus you can get more DPS in while stealthed. I haven't gone to the test server to try this out myself, but depending on the rate of depletion, it may simply not be enough time to do any meaningful damage.
As for encounter powers - some can refill your stealth meter, but most just instantly take you out of stealth, (albeit while providing some additional bonus or functionality when doing so).
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I don't understand why they don't simply have PvP broken down by GS... at level 60 you would have, say, under 6K, 6001 - 8K, 8001 - 9999, and 10K plus, or something.
There's not enough players, 'cos they burn through the content, get bored and leave. This game is GREAT, til you hit about level 50. After that, it's a *MASSIVE*, downward spiral. The "contests" give you rank 1 enchants after Icespire, so why bother doing them? They horribly limit the profession nodes in later zones, to keep people from farming and if you want to do PvP, well, see above.
They need to add EPIC skirmishes. More people have fun with those and quite frankly, having *ONE* skirmish to do, especially since you *DON'T* even get Skirmish Dailies anymore, is ridiculous. We've been hounding, since beta and we've been ignored, but hey, in a month or so, we'll get entirely new content to grind through, in a week.
All i read here is about PVP this and PVP that, i play some PVP but not that much, and i think its quite balanced as it is. People sometimes is just bad players, sometimes i see that my opponent can see me go in stealth and they dont even move away? Mostly its the GWF that just waiting for me to hit them so they can pop there unstoppable, but its just stupid. And sometimes thw GWF actually runns away and come back while my stealth is gone and we have a hard fight, sometimes i win sometimes i lose. Its just that removing stealth while we attacking with DS in a dungeon is just BAD! We already lose the stealth as soon as we use an encounter from stealth and now we lose it in 1.5 second while using our at-wills. So while you are at it nerfing our survivabilitys just replace the entire stealth from TAB becouse it is now completely useless.
It would make more sense to just apply a constant damage debuff onto the TR class. -40% damage while not in stealth. (regular 100% while in stealth)
We can call it "Ultimate righteousness". similar to the DC healing debuff.
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combatclown81Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited July 2013
There are ways they could make changes to classes in PVP without affecting PVE. Cryptic is just too lazy to figure it out. I will be less inclined to play this game after this patch goes live. I don't play PVP in any game, I have played Champions since beta and have NEVER played PVP there. I don't intend to ever play PVP here. For Cryptic to make a change to appease 10 percent of the player base is just stupid.
There are ways they could make changes to classes in PVP without affecting PVE. Cryptic is just too lazy to figure it out. I will be less inclined to play this game after this patch goes live. I don't play PVP in any game, I have played Champions since beta and have NEVER played PVP there. I don't intend to ever play PVP here. For Cryptic to make a change to appease 10 percent of the player base is just stupid.
It feels like there are far more pvp gamers than pve, since pve requires way less skill and is also way less fun. Besides, pve is the vehicle to carry you into being able to pvp. One doesn't pve for no reason.
Pvpers farm in pve, more than you'd expect.
reduce daily damage/duration by half on pvp maps, each class will continue to have their damage and have fun in pvp and there will not be 1 hit kills anymore .... and well nio more perma stealth, no more decrease in pve content and everybodyu is going to be happy
Everything works out in the end . If it hasn't worked out yet, it isn't the end...
Misread. Then avoid taking damage OR deal damage. Sounds fine to me too.
That's a choice between doing nothing and being dead.
In PvE, our main source of damage requires us to be in melee range and completely still, which makes us a bit vulnerable. Our high damage--which is the whole reason for us to be there--will pull aggro easily, even with the feats to reduce aggro. We can't take hits either. Stealth is our way to survive while dealing damage this way.
You don't have to play a TR to understand this, just look at the intro video in the game, it's clear that this is how stealth was intended to be used, and this is how TRs were meant to be played. This won't work anymore when our stealth meter is emptied by our at-wills, stealth will become only an opener, which will make it still useful in PvP but not so much in PvE.
Also, most of our abilities have bonuses when we are in stealth, and now that's mostly gone. That's a huge invisible nerf that you don't see in the patch notes.
And all of this is just on top of the enormous DPS nerf.
It should be doable in most cases, would cost a lot of potions but it's definitely something you can already do in many areas of the game. There are some tricky boss fights requiring a CW and a DC to buy some time for rogues but that's it.
True but you mentioned how things are smoother and faster with a tank. Just being doable and tricky is not smooth nor is it efficient (doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun). All I'm saying is that if the Trickster Rogue class were as OP as some people are claiming, a party of any 5 rogues would trivialize all content. This is simply not true because the class itself is not OP. There are players who play OP rogues but that is true of all classes. These nerfs are big step in the wrong direction for the game imho.
That's a choice between doing nothing and being dead.
In PvE, our main source of damage requires us to be in melee range and completely still, which makes us a bit vulnerable. Our high damage--which is the whole reason for us to be there--will pull aggro easily, even with the feats to reduce aggro. We can't take hits either. Stealth is our way to survive while dealing damage this way.
You don't have to play a TR to understand this, just look at the intro video in the game, it's clear that this is how stealth was intended to be used, and this is how TRs were meant to be played. This won't work anymore when our stealth meter is emptied by our at-wills, stealth will become only an opener, which will make it still useful in PvP but not so much in PvE.
Also, most of our abilities have bonuses when we are in stealth, and now that's mostly gone. That's a huge invisible nerf that you don't see in the patch notes.
And all of this is just on top of the enormous DPS nerf.
I believe that's a Shadowdancer in the opening cinematic not a TR.
Wow you really shot down my post didnt you??? NOT You take one line and try to use it in reference to making shoes. . Here is my original post in italics along with more of a response to you following.
Are you serious? I didn't make a post about you making shoes, that was an aside. The point was that you gave someone a lecture about pretending to know how the company structure works (and he was correct btw), then pretended you know the company structure (you were wrong btw). That's the bit I quoted because that's how quoting works; I didn't need to quote all the preceding garbage to specifically point out the bit which made you a hypocrite. Whether you were right (you weren't) or wrong (you were) is irrelevant, but as it happens you were wrong (correct).
Thanks for taking the time and effort to tell me what you posted but putting it in italics doesn't change the fact that it was garbage. I've removed it again.
Now please if you are going to take the time to troll at least put some thought into it. Give me a solid reason that anything I have said is untrue.
I wasn't trolling, I was pointing out that you were a hypocrite, which you were. Why do I have to give a reason why you were wrong when you can just declare that your company does it this way and therefore every company should follow your example. You failed to mention what your company does, how many employees it has, all pertinent points. A small software company with a staff or 3 to 5 would benefit from staff with interchangeable skills, but even they would likely have only a partial crossover of skills.
A large company is split up into areas with their own budgets and own staff. Sure in a time of crisis it may be that staff would be seconded to another area, but only if the person in control of the budget of the staff being seconded can agree to that. If he is under pressure to meet his own targets it's simply not possible. Also he's not going to hire his staff based on the unlikely scenario that they will be seconded to another area. Stating that the person hiring them should be fired for not basing their skills on something which isn't in their job description is preposterous and only shows your lack of business knowledge and/or that you have experience working with very small numbers of employees and no imagination that any other scenario could exist.
For the record we do not make shoes although that is irrelevant.
You're still not saying what your business is. Is that because it's not comparabile? Making shoes was an example of something which isn't comparable, thus is was actually relevant.
There are somethings that are fundamental to success in business regardless of the product and market. Fundamentals like listening to the voice of your customer
You're confused, you're not the customer of the devs, you're the customer of PWE, completely different thing, and if you can't grasp that there's no point in you even replying to me, nor reading what I say because you've clearly made up your mind and decided you're right (when you're not).
During my management of company wide SAP implementations we had departments that did custom programming, configuration and debugging. While I knew nothing of ABAP programming I did insure the people we hired had cross functional capability. We shifted resource as needed to support the business and our customer needs. Our companies annual sales were $3 billion last year.
Instead of trying to sound impressive with sales maybe you should give some relevant info like the number of employees, and what you're making. One things for sure, you weren't making games, so you're just blowing hot air. Personally I've worked for a bank both developing and supporting large systems. I wouldn't presume to compare my experience to that of a games developer because I know they're not comparible. We had devs and support staff who, by necessity had a crossover of skills. We didn't have people who specialised in 3d modelling or graphics, map design, creating quests, dealing with lore and backstory, working on class skills, coding in whatever language or engine would be used to create games, or other roles which are not interchangeable.
Bottom line is that Cryptic needs to do a better job of listening to its customers and managing their resources.
I'm sure they do listen to PWE, are you presuming to know this as well?
If I say that you can't compare apples and pears no doubt that will go over your head and you'll come back and tell me you're not a green grocer.
DC is a Frankenstein's monster of a class, you basically have two modes , the rubbish mode and the divine mode. Sounds good right? why not just use the good mode? well unfortunately to use the good mode you essentially use mana (pips) to get the good spells. when the pips(mana) is gone your almost a sitting duck to nearly all classes. don't get me wrong its enjoyable to play, its just personally I feel very frustrated because the class feels lacking.
That's because they weren't designed for pvp. In pve it makes sense that you have to manage your divinity. It would be boring if you just had AS and FMF available to use when they came off cooldown.
Any way allowing to avoid damage is tanking. Sadly, another useless answer.
Actually the term tank refers to battlefield tanks of the modern day; they are armoured and can soak up damage. Just like a fighter class in plate armour in an RPG can soak up damage. Avoiding damage is something used by rogue or thief classes and is never referred to as tanking. Occasionally you'll have a hybrid class which can use avoiding to pseudo tank but by their very definition they're still not tanks.
So no, the post you quoted was not useless but was correct.
Lol editting it and adding a definition just demonstrates that you're wrong:
Noun: A player-character, typically in a MMORPG, that is able to occupy an agressor and take the brunt of the aggressor's attacks while the other players deal damage, heal, or perform some other action. The "tank" can survive longer while taking damage than the other characters. Typically, the tank has higher hitpoints (health) and a higher armor rating than the other characters.
See where it said "take"? That's not avoiding, because then it would say avoid the brunt of. You were even kind enough to put the pertinent parts in bold; classes which use avoidance don't survive long while taking damage, nor do they have higher hitpoints, because they're not tanks.
reduce daily damage/duration by half on pvp maps, each class will continue to have their damage and have fun in pvp and there will not be 1 hit kills anymore .... and well nio more perma stealth, no more decrease in pve content and everybodyu is going to be happy
Actually, that's not a bad idea at all.
The big underlying problem in PvP is that classes are tuned for PvE, having way high damage to deal with bosses that have far more HPs than we do, requiring us to be able to deal more damage than we can sustain.
The best way to improve pvp would be to give everyone a defense bonus. Now you have longer fights. Hmm actually, it takes about 10 people to take down a gwf in GG and half the time he just runs away before you can finish him. Scrap that idea.
OK, now that's obvious trolling. You're not engaging him, you're not offering counter arguments, you are quite simply saying.
"I hate stealth cos I cannot deal with playing against it, and now I'm going to be petty and ignore rational argument"
Or better yet....
"Your class mechanic should be relegated to being a shi**y escape tool that doesn't work"
Oh i can solo rogues in pvp as a DC/CW, stealth has many weaknesses. I'm seeing the bright side of things from a pve standpoint though. It's going to require a lot more gaming skills to play a good assassin in this game. Like the DC astral shield forced many DC to learn to play. Anyway, it's expected that stealth should have a counterpart, and this counterpart is often a loss of dps. Ok, you can hide, but then you do less dps than melee dps class with no stealth and different abilities. It's like rangers, in many game, they do less damage than melee, and no one think it's outrageous. You have an awesome survivability tool, probably the best one in game (you take no damage while in stealth), well, you have to pay for it in a way or another.
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jihancritiasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
Misread. Then avoid taking damage OR deal damage. Sounds fine to me too.
Too bad the stamina meter drains from two rolls. After that, you're constantly having to stop attacking to get out of range. Then, you get back in, start flurry, and have to leave again. So, now, rogues are going to be doing less damage just from nerfs, AND less damage because they are still having to leave the fight over and over again. It's bad design all the way around. Even if they didn't nerf rogues, it was bad design. It basically forces you to slot ItC, which is stupid. Classes shouldn't be forced to use the same thing just to survive a fight. It will end up very limited for rogues.
Blah, blah. I don't have the energy to argue about this game anymore.
None? All i see is using some encounters powers draining stealth. Just don't use them. Stay alive OR dps like mad. Or hide and do some dps. I'm not sure it's as dramatic as many rogue players say.
Take a minute and go look at the rogue feat trees, take your time I will wait, now any feat the rogue has access to that states while stealthed or requires combat advantage to achieve the bonus/ just flat out remove it. Ok now tell me where the rogue is going to get sustained single target dps? They can not set up a successful bleed anymore, almost all dmg increases to sustained dps from at wills requires stealth or combat advantage which stealth also provides. The last large source of extra dmg which was not even sustainable IE the daily Lurkers Assault is being nerfed to a few seconds of a GWF's(devastating crit 3 point option in the heroic feats). So yeah explain to me how a daily on a slow ap generation class like the rogue should be a couple seconds of what a GWF can spec for 100% uptime and is not even paragon level mind you.
No really! I challenge anyone to go dig into rogue feats and powers and tell everyonel how the proposed changes are not going to gut the PVE usefulness of the rogue class without an entire reworking of the majority of rogue feats and powers.
These changes may slightly affect pvp burst dmg and will make perma stealth builds a little less viable, but the real problem here is it is going to simply destroy rogue pve play on so many levels it's just mind boggling to even think about it as serious. Technically they over nerfed the rogue class in PVE the last time around, while marginally buffing PVP. This time it's marginal PVP nerf , but a downright gutting of the class in PVE.
Lastly,I am telling you these changes are more drastic and game breaking for the rogue class(in PVE) than I imagine even some rogues will understand. So expecting people who don't play rogues to understand it is asking a bit much, granted I understand it but lets just suffice it to say there are a lot of ignorant rogues and non rogues alike.
Are you serious? I didn't make a post about you making shoes, that was an aside. The point was that you gave someone a lecture about pretending to know how the company structure works (and he was correct btw), then pretended you know the company structure (you were wrong btw). That's the bit I quoted because that's how quoting works; I didn't need to quote all the preceding garbage to specifically point out the bit which made you a hypocrite. Whether you were right (you weren't) or wrong (you were) is irrelevant, but as it happens you were wrong (correct).
Thanks for taking the time and effort to tell me what you posted but putting it in italics doesn't change the fact that it was garbage. I've removed it again.
I wasn't trolling, I was pointing out that you were a hypocrite, which you were. Why do I have to give a reason why you were wrong when you can just declare that your company does it this way and therefore every company should follow your example. You failed to mention what your company does, how many employees it has, all pertinent points. A small software company with a staff or 3 to 5 would benefit from staff with interchangeable skills, but even they would likely have only a partial crossover of skills.
A large company is split up into areas with their own budgets and own staff. Sure in a time of crisis it may be that staff would be seconded to another area, but only if the person in control of the budget of the staff being seconded can agree to that. If he is under pressure to meet his own targets it's simply not possible. Also he's not going to hire his staff based on the unlikely scenario that they will be seconded to another area. Stating that the person hiring them should be fired for not basing their skills on something which isn't in their job description is preposterous and only shows your lack of business knowledge and/or that you have experience working with very small numbers of employees and no imagination that any other scenario could exist.
You're still not saying what your business is. Is that because it's not comparabile? Making shoes was an example of something which isn't comparable, thus is was actually relevant.
You're confused, you're not the customer of the devs, you're the customer of PWE, completely different thing, and if you can't grasp that there's no point in you even replying to me, nor reading what I say because you've clearly made up your mind and decided you're right (when you're not).
Instead of trying to sound impressive with sales maybe you should give some relevant info like the number of employees, and what you're making. One things for sure, you weren't making games, so you're just blowing hot air. Personally I've worked for a bank both developing and supporting large systems. I wouldn't presume to compare my experience to that of a games developer because I know they're not comparible. We had devs and support staff who, by necessity had a crossover of skills. We didn't have people who specialised in 3d modelling or graphics, map design, creating quests, dealing with lore and backstory, working on class skills, coding in whatever language or engine would be used to create games, or other roles which are not interchangeable.
I'm sure they do listen to PWE, are you presuming to know this as well?
If I say that you can't compare apples and pears no doubt that will go over your head and you'll come back and tell me you're not a green grocer.
It is unlikely that I said anywhere in my original post that I am the direct customer of the devs. I also did not pretend to understand the inner workings of the team at Cryptic. You are going to great lengths to discredit my post in which I simply was trying to say it appears they are poorly managed and not customer focused. As for the company you are smart enough to understand why I don't identify the company. You are obviously intelligent and well spoken. Do you truly disagree with the simple statement made in the paragraph below relevant mostly to the MANAGEMENT?
It would also be nice if people like yourself quit pretending to know the internal structure of every company involved with MMO's. Regardless of how the various departments are structured and what their responsibilities are its safe to say there are ongoing issues that have not been solved. The management of the company that allocates resources to various functions is beyond remiss in understanding the voice of their customer. The management of the game DOES direct more attention to cash grab than it should with the current state of the game."
That made me laugh putting TR's in the same bracket as cw's
I also have a 60 of each, and I find GWF and GF by far the most versatile in PvP. They dish out wonderful damage, have massive control and have amazing survivability.
I also find the CW just as easy to play as the TR. I kill TRs with him just as often as I get killed by them, thats balance to me 50/50. It's not hard to win 1vs1 against a TR as a CW, you just need a proper PvP skill setup. They arent hard to spot and track down in stealth, they are very easy to control if you arent a stressy player.
However, trying to kill GWFs and GFs is a pain where the sun dont shine. While killing DCs is a joke on either class. That means CW and TR are fairly close, so in the middle of the food chain, while the fighter classes are at the top and the poor DC struggling at the bottom.
With a ranking like that, what kinda sense is there to nerf one of the middle classes, fix/buff the other and ignore the issues for the bottom class aswell as ignorning the obvious strengths of the top two? What would make sense would be buffing the DC damage and healing aswell as toning down GWF and GF. The only thing that can stop a GF or GWF is a GF or GWF in a 1vs1.
Personally I'd rather see the weaker classes buffed than the stronger nerfed. Then they can start buffing mobs if needed to fit the new preformance.
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jihancritiasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I also have a 60 of each, and I find GWF and GF by far the most versatile in PvP. They dish out wonderful damage, have massive control and have amazing survivability.
I also find the CW just as easy to play as the TR. I kill TRs with him just as often as I get killed by them, thats balance to me 50/50. It's not hard to win 1vs1 against a TR as a CW, you just need a proper PvP skill setup. They arent hard to spot and track down in stealth, they are very easy to control if you arent a stressy player.
However, trying to kill GWFs and GFs is a pain where the sun dont shine. While killing DCs is a joke on either class. That means CW and TR are fairly close, so in the middle of the food chain, while the fighter classes are at the top and the poor DC struggling at the bottom.
With a ranking like that, what kinda sense is there to nerf one of the middle classes, fix/buff the other and ignore the issues for the bottom class aswell as ignorning the obvious strengths of the top two? What would make sense would be buffing the DC damage and healing aswell as toning down GWF and GF. The only thing that can stop a GF or GWF is a GF or GWF in a 1vs1.
Personally I'd rather see the weaker classes buffed than the stronger nerfed. Then they can start buffing mobs if needed to fit the new preformance.
See, that's called common sense. You seem to have it in abundance. They don't. Nerfing shocking execution so hard, while lashing blade still does twice as much damage, is a lack of common sense. These nerfs are as well. I hope they get their stuff together and start paying attention to what they propose to do to these classes.
I see the other classes getting nerfed down the road as well. Then rogue will get nerfed again, and on and on. <
sarcasm
See, that's called common sense. You seem to have it in abundance. They don't. Nerfing shocking execution so hard, while lashing blade still does twice as much damage, is a lack of common sense. These nerfs are as well. I hope they get their stuff together and start paying attention to what they propose to do to these classes.
I see the other classes getting nerfed down the road as well. Then rogue will get nerfed again, and on and on. <
sarcasm
My fear is that the nerfing will never stop and in the end all classes will be very similar. Once damage is out the window the focus will be on who has the most armor or defensive abilities. So we will most likely end up with 5 (or more) classes that are all very similar, just with different names and a few gimmicky skills.
Comments
It should be doable in most cases, would cost a lot of potions but it's definitely something you can already do in many areas of the game. There are some tricky boss fights requiring a CW and a DC to buy some time for rogues but that's it.
There would not be enough matches because not enough people play this game.
None? All i see is using some encounters powers draining stealth. Just don't use them. Stay alive OR dps like mad. Or hide and do some dps. I'm not sure it's as dramatic as many rogue players say.
I think you are confusing damage avoidance with tanking. All classes have ways to avoid damage. Only classes specifically designed to tank have abilities that allow them to directly pull aggro from another player. Why do you think that is? Holding aggro is the class-defining ability of a tank.
Are you taking into account that, with these changes, At-Will's will deplete the stealth meter? They don't right now, thus you can get more DPS in while stealthed. I haven't gone to the test server to try this out myself, but depending on the rate of depletion, it may simply not be enough time to do any meaningful damage.
As for encounter powers - some can refill your stealth meter, but most just instantly take you out of stealth, (albeit while providing some additional bonus or functionality when doing so).
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
There's not enough players, 'cos they burn through the content, get bored and leave. This game is GREAT, til you hit about level 50. After that, it's a *MASSIVE*, downward spiral. The "contests" give you rank 1 enchants after Icespire, so why bother doing them? They horribly limit the profession nodes in later zones, to keep people from farming and if you want to do PvP, well, see above.
They need to add EPIC skirmishes. More people have fun with those and quite frankly, having *ONE* skirmish to do, especially since you *DON'T* even get Skirmish Dailies anymore, is ridiculous. We've been hounding, since beta and we've been ignored, but hey, in a month or so, we'll get entirely new content to grind through, in a week.
No, encounters aren't being changed. It's AT-WILLS that will drain stealth, combined with the nerf to Lurker's Assault.
Misread. Then avoid taking damage OR deal damage. Sounds fine to me too.
We can call it "Ultimate righteousness". similar to the DC healing debuff.
It feels like there are far more pvp gamers than pve, since pve requires way less skill and is also way less fun. Besides, pve is the vehicle to carry you into being able to pvp. One doesn't pve for no reason.
Pvpers farm in pve, more than you'd expect.
reduce daily damage/duration by half on pvp maps, each class will continue to have their damage and have fun in pvp and there will not be 1 hit kills anymore
That's a choice between doing nothing and being dead.
In PvE, our main source of damage requires us to be in melee range and completely still, which makes us a bit vulnerable. Our high damage--which is the whole reason for us to be there--will pull aggro easily, even with the feats to reduce aggro. We can't take hits either. Stealth is our way to survive while dealing damage this way.
You don't have to play a TR to understand this, just look at the intro video in the game, it's clear that this is how stealth was intended to be used, and this is how TRs were meant to be played. This won't work anymore when our stealth meter is emptied by our at-wills, stealth will become only an opener, which will make it still useful in PvP but not so much in PvE.
Also, most of our abilities have bonuses when we are in stealth, and now that's mostly gone. That's a huge invisible nerf that you don't see in the patch notes.
And all of this is just on top of the enormous DPS nerf.
True but you mentioned how things are smoother and faster with a tank. Just being doable and tricky is not smooth nor is it efficient (doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun). All I'm saying is that if the Trickster Rogue class were as OP as some people are claiming, a party of any 5 rogues would trivialize all content. This is simply not true because the class itself is not OP. There are players who play OP rogues but that is true of all classes. These nerfs are big step in the wrong direction for the game imho.
Play a cleric btw in case you were wondering.
I believe that's a Shadowdancer in the opening cinematic not a TR.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to tell me what you posted but putting it in italics doesn't change the fact that it was garbage. I've removed it again.
I wasn't trolling, I was pointing out that you were a hypocrite, which you were. Why do I have to give a reason why you were wrong when you can just declare that your company does it this way and therefore every company should follow your example. You failed to mention what your company does, how many employees it has, all pertinent points. A small software company with a staff or 3 to 5 would benefit from staff with interchangeable skills, but even they would likely have only a partial crossover of skills.
A large company is split up into areas with their own budgets and own staff. Sure in a time of crisis it may be that staff would be seconded to another area, but only if the person in control of the budget of the staff being seconded can agree to that. If he is under pressure to meet his own targets it's simply not possible. Also he's not going to hire his staff based on the unlikely scenario that they will be seconded to another area. Stating that the person hiring them should be fired for not basing their skills on something which isn't in their job description is preposterous and only shows your lack of business knowledge and/or that you have experience working with very small numbers of employees and no imagination that any other scenario could exist.
You're still not saying what your business is. Is that because it's not comparabile? Making shoes was an example of something which isn't comparable, thus is was actually relevant.
You're confused, you're not the customer of the devs, you're the customer of PWE, completely different thing, and if you can't grasp that there's no point in you even replying to me, nor reading what I say because you've clearly made up your mind and decided you're right (when you're not).
Instead of trying to sound impressive with sales maybe you should give some relevant info like the number of employees, and what you're making. One things for sure, you weren't making games, so you're just blowing hot air. Personally I've worked for a bank both developing and supporting large systems. I wouldn't presume to compare my experience to that of a games developer because I know they're not comparible. We had devs and support staff who, by necessity had a crossover of skills. We didn't have people who specialised in 3d modelling or graphics, map design, creating quests, dealing with lore and backstory, working on class skills, coding in whatever language or engine would be used to create games, or other roles which are not interchangeable.
I'm sure they do listen to PWE, are you presuming to know this as well?
If I say that you can't compare apples and pears no doubt that will go over your head and you'll come back and tell me you're not a green grocer.
Actually the term tank refers to battlefield tanks of the modern day; they are armoured and can soak up damage. Just like a fighter class in plate armour in an RPG can soak up damage. Avoiding damage is something used by rogue or thief classes and is never referred to as tanking. Occasionally you'll have a hybrid class which can use avoiding to pseudo tank but by their very definition they're still not tanks.
So no, the post you quoted was not useless but was correct.
Lol editting it and adding a definition just demonstrates that you're wrong:
See where it said "take"? That's not avoiding, because then it would say avoid the brunt of. You were even kind enough to put the pertinent parts in bold; classes which use avoidance don't survive long while taking damage, nor do they have higher hitpoints, because they're not tanks.
Actually, that's not a bad idea at all.
The big underlying problem in PvP is that classes are tuned for PvE, having way high damage to deal with bosses that have far more HPs than we do, requiring us to be able to deal more damage than we can sustain.
Oh i can solo rogues in pvp as a DC/CW, stealth has many weaknesses. I'm seeing the bright side of things from a pve standpoint though. It's going to require a lot more gaming skills to play a good assassin in this game. Like the DC astral shield forced many DC to learn to play. Anyway, it's expected that stealth should have a counterpart, and this counterpart is often a loss of dps. Ok, you can hide, but then you do less dps than melee dps class with no stealth and different abilities. It's like rangers, in many game, they do less damage than melee, and no one think it's outrageous. You have an awesome survivability tool, probably the best one in game (you take no damage while in stealth), well, you have to pay for it in a way or another.
Too bad the stamina meter drains from two rolls. After that, you're constantly having to stop attacking to get out of range. Then, you get back in, start flurry, and have to leave again. So, now, rogues are going to be doing less damage just from nerfs, AND less damage because they are still having to leave the fight over and over again. It's bad design all the way around. Even if they didn't nerf rogues, it was bad design. It basically forces you to slot ItC, which is stupid. Classes shouldn't be forced to use the same thing just to survive a fight. It will end up very limited for rogues.
Blah, blah. I don't have the energy to argue about this game anymore.
Take a minute and go look at the rogue feat trees, take your time I will wait, now any feat the rogue has access to that states while stealthed or requires combat advantage to achieve the bonus/ just flat out remove it. Ok now tell me where the rogue is going to get sustained single target dps? They can not set up a successful bleed anymore, almost all dmg increases to sustained dps from at wills requires stealth or combat advantage which stealth also provides. The last large source of extra dmg which was not even sustainable IE the daily Lurkers Assault is being nerfed to a few seconds of a GWF's(devastating crit 3 point option in the heroic feats). So yeah explain to me how a daily on a slow ap generation class like the rogue should be a couple seconds of what a GWF can spec for 100% uptime and is not even paragon level mind you.
No really! I challenge anyone to go dig into rogue feats and powers and tell everyonel how the proposed changes are not going to gut the PVE usefulness of the rogue class without an entire reworking of the majority of rogue feats and powers.
These changes may slightly affect pvp burst dmg and will make perma stealth builds a little less viable, but the real problem here is it is going to simply destroy rogue pve play on so many levels it's just mind boggling to even think about it as serious. Technically they over nerfed the rogue class in PVE the last time around, while marginally buffing PVP. This time it's marginal PVP nerf , but a downright gutting of the class in PVE.
Lastly,I am telling you these changes are more drastic and game breaking for the rogue class(in PVE) than I imagine even some rogues will understand. So expecting people who don't play rogues to understand it is asking a bit much, granted I understand it but lets just suffice it to say there are a lot of ignorant rogues and non rogues alike.
It is unlikely that I said anywhere in my original post that I am the direct customer of the devs. I also did not pretend to understand the inner workings of the team at Cryptic. You are going to great lengths to discredit my post in which I simply was trying to say it appears they are poorly managed and not customer focused. As for the company you are smart enough to understand why I don't identify the company. You are obviously intelligent and well spoken. Do you truly disagree with the simple statement made in the paragraph below relevant mostly to the MANAGEMENT?
It would also be nice if people like yourself quit pretending to know the internal structure of every company involved with MMO's. Regardless of how the various departments are structured and what their responsibilities are its safe to say there are ongoing issues that have not been solved. The management of the company that allocates resources to various functions is beyond remiss in understanding the voice of their customer. The management of the game DOES direct more attention to cash grab than it should with the current state of the game."
I also have a 60 of each, and I find GWF and GF by far the most versatile in PvP. They dish out wonderful damage, have massive control and have amazing survivability.
I also find the CW just as easy to play as the TR. I kill TRs with him just as often as I get killed by them, thats balance to me 50/50. It's not hard to win 1vs1 against a TR as a CW, you just need a proper PvP skill setup. They arent hard to spot and track down in stealth, they are very easy to control if you arent a stressy player.
However, trying to kill GWFs and GFs is a pain where the sun dont shine. While killing DCs is a joke on either class. That means CW and TR are fairly close, so in the middle of the food chain, while the fighter classes are at the top and the poor DC struggling at the bottom.
With a ranking like that, what kinda sense is there to nerf one of the middle classes, fix/buff the other and ignore the issues for the bottom class aswell as ignorning the obvious strengths of the top two? What would make sense would be buffing the DC damage and healing aswell as toning down GWF and GF. The only thing that can stop a GF or GWF is a GF or GWF in a 1vs1.
Personally I'd rather see the weaker classes buffed than the stronger nerfed. Then they can start buffing mobs if needed to fit the new preformance.
See, that's called common sense. You seem to have it in abundance. They don't. Nerfing shocking execution so hard, while lashing blade still does twice as much damage, is a lack of common sense. These nerfs are as well. I hope they get their stuff together and start paying attention to what they propose to do to these classes.
I see the other classes getting nerfed down the road as well. Then rogue will get nerfed again, and on and on. <
sarcasm
My fear is that the nerfing will never stop and in the end all classes will be very similar. Once damage is out the window the focus will be on who has the most armor or defensive abilities. So we will most likely end up with 5 (or more) classes that are all very similar, just with different names and a few gimmicky skills.