There must be something we are missing. Keep one thing in mind: The developers would not implement something that is likely to cause them to lose money, right?
So, with BoP, it means that people will not be able to buy Zen, convert it to ADs and buy a complete T2 set on the AH within minutes of hitting lvl 60. Less Zen sales -> less profit. This is obviously not the plan - so how are they going to get the cash back that they will lose because of this change?
Lose money? How?
The salvage system means that Cryptic themself can control the cost of items and not the players.
If they're in control of the economy, they can get tons more money than they do now.
In addition, all current items remaining BoE will become exclusive items. The prices will go up immensely and the AD transfers will go through the roof just to get these "exlusive BoE items".
I think this change is the wrong way to look at the problem and the wrong way to fix it.
First off, who cares if someone else wants to buy their gear. It doesn't mean they can play their toon, it doesn't mean they can lead a dungeon. The gear balance I personally felt was about right, The NEED only on usable items should have it sorted. Their e-peen is bigger than yours.. who gives a ****. With that being said, There is nothing wrong with buying gear, you still need to know what to buy.. Can't get that final set piece to drop.. I would rather run a dungeon personally, BUT I do not want to have to farm a dungeon for that piece that never drops.
Secondly, If people can sell items on the AH, then there will continue to be an economy. Supply and demand and all that Jazz. The market I personally think should be abit flooded, So the gear will be cheap enough for a weekend casual to beable to progress. They run a dungeon here.. farm some dailies there.. sell a T1 item perhaps. Few weeks later they all set to start running harder stuff. You want multiple sets to tweak your build abit, You want to beable to put good enchants in all those items. You farm some dungeons and sell some gear, buy some enchants or wards etc. Now everyone is going to be doing that so gear will be cheap.. not a bad thing, you still need to get the Enchants etc, but atleast the weekend player can progess also. It also gives an incentive to keep running content as you can make some diamonds.. sure you may make about the same as what the salvage would pay out.. but if you are running in a guild/running alot of dungeons etc, then the incentive to run stuff still exists. Those 1mil AD items lower in price etc etc..
If you make it so only elite can run dungeons, then only elite will run dungeons and the content will wear out just as fast, because no one can run it. Players that can run the content will have no incentive to rerun content and help newer players learn the content. If purple sets are under 50K a piece it is achievable for everyone. If it is made so can only earn so much a day.. then players will only play so much.
Why would an experienced, well geared player run content again that day if they can't refine their diamonds from it. They are left with no incentive to teach or help newer players. They get bored with having to wait a month to refine all their diamonds and play something else. Newer players have no experienced players to learn from or help them.. so they struggle and slam their heads against a wall and also leave.. You can't even help out your alt with that lucky greed roll you won.. Atleast make the items bind on account so you give some incentive for players to buy more slots and make more toons and redo more content.
This system change really shoots NW in the foot.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
By alienating the "Pay for convenience" crowd - casual players with significant disposable income, so to speak - people that may not have time to run epic dungeons on a regular basis, but still want good gear. Previously this group could pay $$$ for Zen, exchange that for AD and buy the gear they wanted. Granted, some may have been a bit excessive - getting a complete T2 set within an hour of hitting lvl 60, but the point is that the "pay for convenience" crowd probably accounts for a significant chunk of the Zen sales.
If that group goes away, and the people that stay are the "hardcore" raiders/grinders, it will simply mean less $$$ for Cryptic/PWE - well, until they come up with a new way of getting cash from that group.
My point is that they are essentially narrowing the playerbase - many casual players will go away or stop recommending the game to their friends.
If that's what they want - fine ... it's not like this is the only MMORPG around.
Lots of MMOs have BoP for endgame epics. The problem is once you fully gear up you start raiding. This would add the BoP factor but no raids. Gauntlgrym would be only raid type event and after a month or two of that you will be ready for next raid.
lots? You mean p2p? I only play f2p and haven't played one that had BoP... Now stop comparing the two.
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axer128Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I support the change.
Though I do hope some fairly decent gear remains unbound, to trade/sell and gear up new players with.
And gear that is acceptable to completing the current epics - given there difficulty, it should at least be one of the stronger T1 sets for each class.
Else it will become too difficult for newer players to get into endgame content.
Plus less rewarding to give gifts to your friends, as if your unable to bring them anywhere near your level, they will feel left out.
But yea I agree the best gear in the game should be bind on pickup. Having it not is just far too pay to win imo.
All CN loot especially, and the better T2 sets (maybe 1 weak t2 set could remain unbound, or perhaps that gauntlgrym t2 pvp set could remain BoE since its probably not best in slot for most classes (tho it is for some builds).
And the salvage system sounds like a great alternative. I'd love to get more then 1.6 gold from some of the epics players dont care to use... Because well, this game has MAD INSANE diamond sinks, and we need better ways to obtain then (outside the auction house).
EG:
-60k to transmute an items appearance
-~50k per dye to dye an item (and it has 3 sections, so up to 150k)
-4000diamonds just to leave epic karrunax cuz of its end of dungeon bug.
-700k!!!! to move my weapon enchantments from 1 weapon to another..
-Millions to move my armor enchants to a new set.
etc, etc
so yea, without solid ways of obtaining diamonds, the game could become just annoyingly un-convenient to play.
By alienating the "Pay for convenience" crowd - casual players with significant disposable income, so to speak - people that may not have time to run epic dungeons on a regular basis, but still want good gear. Previously this group could pay $$$ for Zen, exchange that for AD and buy the gear they wanted. Granted, some may have been a bit excessive - getting a complete T2 set within an hour of hitting lvl 60, but the point is that the "pay for convenience" crowd probably accounts for a significant chunk of the Zen sales.
If that group goes away, and the people that stay are the "hardcore" raiders/grinders, it will simply mean less $$$ for Cryptic/PWE - well, until they come up with a new way of getting cash from that group.
My point is that they are essentially narrowing the playerbase - many casual players will go away or stop recommending the game to their friends.
If that's what they want - fine ... it's not like this is the only MMORPG around.
You're missing the point of the Salvage system.
They're just taking the price control for BoE loot away from players and into their own hands.
This means they can stabilize an economy, without having to worry about losing Zen -> AD conversion when the prices go down over time on the AH.
Its a money <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> scam.
+1 for this idea. I've 4 level 60's at the moment and running with the best sets on each of them. But I've never ran an epic dungeon. I just opened my wallet and went to the AH, where the best gear is available for peanuts. Not only has this removed the desire to even try epic runs it leaves a rather empty feeling as big as the hole in my wallet.
Having all the crafting skills recently maxed I found it pointless to even bother making purple gear as better gear is available on the AH for a fraction of the cost it takes to make an equivalent piece. Maybe now crafting will be a worthwhile time sink.
So I see this change as a big step forward in providing longevity in what is shaping up to be a fantastic game. Fanboy? I suppose, but after 30 years of gaming there's less than a handful of games I'd be happy to lumbered with that moniker, this is one of them.
I'll have to see how this turns out, but I have one main problem with it.
If I am any class other than a Devoted Cleric, and I need to get an Icon for my Stone of Allure companion, how am I supposed to do this after the patch? I can no longer buy them from the auction house, I can't loot them from dungeons, because there will always be a Devoted Cleric in the party rolling need on it (Because they can, and we can't), and I can't make a DC alt and mail it to the required character, because it's bound when picked up.
The Icon in the Stone of Allure is just one example, but you're going to make it near impossible to put decent gear in most of our companions.
I was thinking the same thing. How on earth will we gear our companions now?
I don't like the change. I suppose if the intent is to have players spend more time on end game content this is an effective change. Me personally I hate RNG and being forced into certain dungeons or aspects of the game. I enjoy being able to get my diamonds some other way or another dungeon and simply having someone else do the delves I need a piece from, it's a win win situation if that's what either party prefers.
That said the whole ninja looting and exploiting situation was sort of ruining the 'endgame market' by overflowing the trade house with cheap gear, and that situation totally has to go. With this change the only one gaining something by exploiting is the exploiter, and a quick permaban can easily fix the damage done instead of how it is now.
Either way, there'll be a lot of wasted loot now, probably an exponential increase in how long it takes to get the gear you want. I don't really see the point of offering diamonds for loot you don't need, as there really is rather little you can buy with it if gear can no longer be sold.
To me the proposed need=bop and greed=boe would have been enough. And for most dungeon exploits to be fixed.
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superkheMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
With this change, what are some of the methods that players can earn end-game gear, aside from earning it via Bind-on-Pickup boss drops?
There are still high end purples that are BoE including gear from Professions (only the gear that comes from upgrading a boss drop was made BoP), as well as one set per class such as the Murderous Jester gear for Trickster Rogues. (source)
Great idea for the game, amazingly bad idea for the company...how strange hehe
I've never purchased gear from the AH, but still have the best and most expensive items out there. Which makes me feel a sense of accomplishment. However, since people enjoyed pumping out hundreds of dollars to avoid doing the actual content (I love you guys!!) PWI was making tons of money (I'm somehow guessing items off the AH are the 2nd biggest Zen sink after keys). It is VERY odd to see items become BoE.
I stand by the people that say that only T1 and T2 armors and weapons should be BoP, that makes sense the most in my eyes.
Not a good idea since theres no way of getting good AD from selling stuff right now without set items. People who played before the patch will have a lot of AD and people who start after the patch will have jack sht.
I slept on it and thought about it and posted this somewhere else but,
This wouldn't be a problem if there was actual useable gear that made dungeons playable that's not in a set, but there isn't. You'll be fine up to the boss, but if you don't have purples then you're almost certainly done for. If they made a lot more viable gear for level 60 then this would be okay, but right now it would make end game undoeable.
Of course you can just grind away to get pvp gear, but now that you don't get much glory for losing it will take forever. Not to mention that clerics are screwed right now for getting points meaning that clerics get even less glory and will have a really hard time getting the pvp gear. So now you'll have a bunch of ungeared clerics running around the dungeons which really just sucks for everyone.
Horrible. This actually makes me regret the fact we just dropped 60 on gift cards, guess I won't be picking up any more until I see if this goes into effect or not. My wife and I are casual gamers, and the AH gear makes it so we can actually suit up enough to be invited along on PUG's to get real gear or items. Guess I better buy her some stuff now before her character hits 60, or she'll be SoL. <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, I'm not even going to tell her about his because she'll probably stop bothering to level.
My main concern is selling gear is a huge staple for money so you have players with a few million AD and others with very little AD. This is going to create huge disparity and really mess with the game's economy which is already quite unstable.
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sidekick27Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited June 2013
Man this is incredible, Love this so much.
Die Noobs Die
If this goes through I really hope you at least plan to make the T2 DD chests drop T2 loot. Same for CN loot. I'm sick of getting crappy T1 belts and rings on 90% of my DD runs.
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taishaku77Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited June 2013
If you decide to implement this change, consider adding a new seal's trader who will sell T2 items for seals of the drake (at the moment those seals are almost useless unless you are trying to get jewellery for alts).
This way players will have a reason to run dungeons and a way to get that specific item that never drops.
Step back a moment, and think about why Cryptic is doing this. There was a vocal complain about ninja looting, and the new need-button-grey out-if-not-your-class will only work so much. You still have the situation where a player already with BiS gears Needing and depriving a party member of the same class who really needed the gear. BoP will solve this GREEDY PLAYER issue.
Whose fault is it that Cryptic is implementing this? The greedy players. If everyone would be decent, greed to sell instead of needing to sell, we wouldn't even have this at all. But people are greedy, so there.
My suggestion is this: item becomes BoP if it was NEEDED. If not, they remain BoE. Now you can eliminate ninja looting, and still able to make trading possible.
This isn't a terrible solution, since as it is now there is no point to greeding and item to sell if you are the only one of your class in the party. But if a need roll is BoP and greed is BoE then you will see alot more people using greed (unless they actually need the item)
however I would prefer to have no BoP, I feel the current system allows those who actually need an item to get it.
Why do you take a nice step forward with a big patch, then two steps back with this hackneyed and tired leftover relic of MMOs-past?
All the recent changes are to make the game more like the rest, NW is another "me too" that has jumped the shark before leaving the trumped-up "beta" stage. Fail.
Comments
Lose money? How?
The salvage system means that Cryptic themself can control the cost of items and not the players.
If they're in control of the economy, they can get tons more money than they do now.
In addition, all current items remaining BoE will become exclusive items. The prices will go up immensely and the AD transfers will go through the roof just to get these "exlusive BoE items".
First off, who cares if someone else wants to buy their gear. It doesn't mean they can play their toon, it doesn't mean they can lead a dungeon. The gear balance I personally felt was about right, The NEED only on usable items should have it sorted. Their e-peen is bigger than yours.. who gives a ****. With that being said, There is nothing wrong with buying gear, you still need to know what to buy.. Can't get that final set piece to drop.. I would rather run a dungeon personally, BUT I do not want to have to farm a dungeon for that piece that never drops.
Secondly, If people can sell items on the AH, then there will continue to be an economy. Supply and demand and all that Jazz. The market I personally think should be abit flooded, So the gear will be cheap enough for a weekend casual to beable to progress. They run a dungeon here.. farm some dailies there.. sell a T1 item perhaps. Few weeks later they all set to start running harder stuff. You want multiple sets to tweak your build abit, You want to beable to put good enchants in all those items. You farm some dungeons and sell some gear, buy some enchants or wards etc. Now everyone is going to be doing that so gear will be cheap.. not a bad thing, you still need to get the Enchants etc, but atleast the weekend player can progess also. It also gives an incentive to keep running content as you can make some diamonds.. sure you may make about the same as what the salvage would pay out.. but if you are running in a guild/running alot of dungeons etc, then the incentive to run stuff still exists. Those 1mil AD items lower in price etc etc..
If you make it so only elite can run dungeons, then only elite will run dungeons and the content will wear out just as fast, because no one can run it. Players that can run the content will have no incentive to rerun content and help newer players learn the content. If purple sets are under 50K a piece it is achievable for everyone. If it is made so can only earn so much a day.. then players will only play so much.
Why would an experienced, well geared player run content again that day if they can't refine their diamonds from it. They are left with no incentive to teach or help newer players. They get bored with having to wait a month to refine all their diamonds and play something else. Newer players have no experienced players to learn from or help them.. so they struggle and slam their heads against a wall and also leave.. You can't even help out your alt with that lucky greed roll you won.. Atleast make the items bind on account so you give some incentive for players to buy more slots and make more toons and redo more content.
This system change really shoots NW in the foot.
By alienating the "Pay for convenience" crowd - casual players with significant disposable income, so to speak - people that may not have time to run epic dungeons on a regular basis, but still want good gear. Previously this group could pay $$$ for Zen, exchange that for AD and buy the gear they wanted. Granted, some may have been a bit excessive - getting a complete T2 set within an hour of hitting lvl 60, but the point is that the "pay for convenience" crowd probably accounts for a significant chunk of the Zen sales.
If that group goes away, and the people that stay are the "hardcore" raiders/grinders, it will simply mean less $$$ for Cryptic/PWE - well, until they come up with a new way of getting cash from that group.
My point is that they are essentially narrowing the playerbase - many casual players will go away or stop recommending the game to their friends.
If that's what they want - fine ... it's not like this is the only MMORPG around.
Most of PPL will quit. Im playn the game cause of the Trading and the fun from AH. Devs ever play their own game ?
lots? You mean p2p? I only play f2p and haven't played one that had BoP... Now stop comparing the two.
Though I do hope some fairly decent gear remains unbound, to trade/sell and gear up new players with.
And gear that is acceptable to completing the current epics - given there difficulty, it should at least be one of the stronger T1 sets for each class.
Else it will become too difficult for newer players to get into endgame content.
Plus less rewarding to give gifts to your friends, as if your unable to bring them anywhere near your level, they will feel left out.
But yea I agree the best gear in the game should be bind on pickup. Having it not is just far too pay to win imo.
All CN loot especially, and the better T2 sets (maybe 1 weak t2 set could remain unbound, or perhaps that gauntlgrym t2 pvp set could remain BoE since its probably not best in slot for most classes (tho it is for some builds).
And the salvage system sounds like a great alternative. I'd love to get more then 1.6 gold from some of the epics players dont care to use... Because well, this game has MAD INSANE diamond sinks, and we need better ways to obtain then (outside the auction house).
EG:
-60k to transmute an items appearance
-~50k per dye to dye an item (and it has 3 sections, so up to 150k)
-4000diamonds just to leave epic karrunax cuz of its end of dungeon bug.
-700k!!!! to move my weapon enchantments from 1 weapon to another..
-Millions to move my armor enchants to a new set.
etc, etc
so yea, without solid ways of obtaining diamonds, the game could become just annoyingly un-convenient to play.
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
These DEV's have some ideas even horrible .. and now this idea forward is how we do AD's?
You're missing the point of the Salvage system.
They're just taking the price control for BoE loot away from players and into their own hands.
This means they can stabilize an economy, without having to worry about losing Zen -> AD conversion when the prices go down over time on the AH.
Its a money <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> scam.
Having all the crafting skills recently maxed I found it pointless to even bother making purple gear as better gear is available on the AH for a fraction of the cost it takes to make an equivalent piece. Maybe now crafting will be a worthwhile time sink.
So I see this change as a big step forward in providing longevity in what is shaping up to be a fantastic game. Fanboy? I suppose, but after 30 years of gaming there's less than a handful of games I'd be happy to lumbered with that moniker, this is one of them.
I was thinking the same thing. How on earth will we gear our companions now?
With the gear that's still BOE and the AH from folks making lvl 60 gear.
I don't like the change. I suppose if the intent is to have players spend more time on end game content this is an effective change. Me personally I hate RNG and being forced into certain dungeons or aspects of the game. I enjoy being able to get my diamonds some other way or another dungeon and simply having someone else do the delves I need a piece from, it's a win win situation if that's what either party prefers.
That said the whole ninja looting and exploiting situation was sort of ruining the 'endgame market' by overflowing the trade house with cheap gear, and that situation totally has to go. With this change the only one gaining something by exploiting is the exploiter, and a quick permaban can easily fix the damage done instead of how it is now.
Either way, there'll be a lot of wasted loot now, probably an exponential increase in how long it takes to get the gear you want. I don't really see the point of offering diamonds for loot you don't need, as there really is rather little you can buy with it if gear can no longer be sold.
To me the proposed need=bop and greed=boe would have been enough. And for most dungeon exploits to be fixed.
Craft being more useful is good I guess.
I've never purchased gear from the AH, but still have the best and most expensive items out there. Which makes me feel a sense of accomplishment. However, since people enjoyed pumping out hundreds of dollars to avoid doing the actual content (I love you guys!!) PWI was making tons of money (I'm somehow guessing items off the AH are the 2nd biggest Zen sink after keys). It is VERY odd to see items become BoE.
I stand by the people that say that only T1 and T2 armors and weapons should be BoP, that makes sense the most in my eyes.
This wouldn't be a problem if there was actual useable gear that made dungeons playable that's not in a set, but there isn't. You'll be fine up to the boss, but if you don't have purples then you're almost certainly done for. If they made a lot more viable gear for level 60 then this would be okay, but right now it would make end game undoeable.
Of course you can just grind away to get pvp gear, but now that you don't get much glory for losing it will take forever. Not to mention that clerics are screwed right now for getting points meaning that clerics get even less glory and will have a really hard time getting the pvp gear. So now you'll have a bunch of ungeared clerics running around the dungeons which really just sucks for everyone.
Die Noobs Die
Awful change.
This way players will have a reason to run dungeons and a way to get that specific item that never drops.
This isn't a terrible solution, since as it is now there is no point to greeding and item to sell if you are the only one of your class in the party. But if a need roll is BoP and greed is BoE then you will see alot more people using greed (unless they actually need the item)
however I would prefer to have no BoP, I feel the current system allows those who actually need an item to get it.
Why do you take a nice step forward with a big patch, then two steps back with this hackneyed and tired leftover relic of MMOs-past?
All the recent changes are to make the game more like the rest, NW is another "me too" that has jumped the shark before leaving the trumped-up "beta" stage. Fail.