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Non-Creative Quests vs Popularity

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    yliana1yliana1 Member Posts: 38
    edited June 2013
    Well...

    I personally think the biggest "Problem" is simply that Quests that are short,but count for the daily, are always going to cater more people then a long Project. Simply cause alot of people dont play content that gives barely any reward for the time spent doing so.

    Very few actually play content with the purpose of enjoying the content,knowing there will be little to no reward... Wich imo is a sad thing,but nothing uncommon in todays gaming generation :)

    The only other Game with a Foundry i play is STO,and even there people create afk dailies,and farm quests etc etc,and yes those are usually most popular for obvious reasons explained above..

    Dont get me wrong,nothing wrong with that type of Quest,but it creates the environment we have now,that Quests that arent just a fast run to complete dailies/farm dont get nearly enough of the attention they often deserve.

    So what can be done to change this? I dont really know,but maybe :

    Increase the reward the daily Foundry Quest gives... AND manually pick Quests each week that count for completion.. To keep things interesting maybe have a total of 35-40 Quests per week that you can choose from. And simply not pick obvious farmquests.
    Obviously they would have to change the daily Quest,and make it a repeatable as much as you want Quest. (The Limit on AD refining would still be in place,so no permafarm anyway,but that gives you the option to play a few long foundries enjoy the content aside of PvP and Dungeons and earn some decent "reward" for those who it matters to) And maybe have it give AD based on the average time for completion per Quest,that way afking to get more reward wont really work too well since you can barely influence that time on your own.

    This would probably anger some People that are just doing it for fast rewards,but lets be honest... the way it is now,as others Pointed out you can earn the AD much faster so those People shouldnt be doing foundry now either.

    I made a Quest myself,a rather short and more a test of tools/limits.. nothing special.. So i dont really think anyone will play it ^^ But i refuse to make a Quest with 50 Mobs next to a cliff just for easy xp farm or something just to get thousands of People Playing it. I cant even immagine what someone that makes a 1h or more long Quest/story feels like if he sees that People rather play a 15minute 5 room with 10 mobs each Quest over a well thought out and authentic "Dungeon" or something. But i doubt that will ever change,unless our mentality changes overall.

    Just my 2c,that turned into a Wall of Text >.>
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    wuhsinwuhsin Banned Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    yliana1 wrote: »
    I cant even immagine what someone that makes a 1h or more long Quest/story feels like if he sees that People rather play a 15minute 5 room with 10 mobs each Quest over a well thought out and authentic "Dungeon" or something.

    You know the Gamefly commercial where the people just bought a bad game and are throwing a hissy fit, tossing their tv's/game consoles out the window, etc? It's somewhat like that. n.n
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    maerwinmaerwin Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    wuhsin wrote: »
    You know the Gamefly commercial where the people just bought a bad game and are throwing a hissy fit, tossing their tv's/game consoles out the window, etc? It's somewhat like that. n.n
    Not really. I doubt my 50min quest will ever reach 100 plays. But out of 21 people who did play it, 20 said they liked it. That's pretty much a success for me and I am happy about it
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    NW-DMFGWPBN3 The Lost City - Review Thread
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    xhritxhrit Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    maerwin wrote: »
    Not really. I doubt my 50min quest will ever reach 100 plays. But out of 21 people who did play it, 20 said they liked it. That's pretty much a success for me and I am happy about it

    A lot of the longer foundry quests I have seen could benefit from a tighter narrative. I bet you could break up your quest into three 15 minute parts, and get twenty times as many plays.
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    zahinderzahinder Member Posts: 897 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Here's hoping, Xhrit. ;)
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

    Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?

    Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?

    Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
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    neverhofneverhof Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 174 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    A possible compromise for the OP, would be to split the quest into a 2 part campaign so those that enjoy the story/setting can do both and take their time and those that just want a quick 15 mins quest for the daily can do them too. Turn them into chapters maybe.

    I think thats part of the Foundry's huge potential, with up to 10 part campaigns some stories will probably end up building up to a boss when they finally let us place them in our quests/campaigns.
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    dzogendzogen Member Posts: 550 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I think you mis-understand my proposition Dzogen. ;)

    Right now there are four types of Foundry Daily Missions: 1, 2, 3, or 4.
    It doesn't take time into account. Just complete a set number. So as it stands the system rewards players best for completing four 15 minute quests. Well I'd rather they just translate that from 4 Missions to "At least 60 Average Minutes" (worded better).

    If you want to do a five minute quest, go for it! Get it marked off the daily. If you want to do twelve five minute average play time quests be my guest! If you want to do one sixty, feel free. And if you want to do four fifteens you're good to go too. Yeah players might like the simplicity of only doing one sixty minute quest but it's certainly a lot less likely to occur than longer quests being played right this minute.
    Reward players for their time regardless of how they spend it.



    And believe me I know full well there's a pink elephant in the room and it goes above and beyond Foundry Missions.
    Right now the main item players see as having worth is purple gear. Players have stated they want dungeons to be more rewarding because right now if it's not during the DD Event then they often don't get any rewards of note.

    The issue is how to make items outside of epic drops and some rare drops valuable? Just tweaking the drop rates will deflate the value of higher end drops so the question becomes what could be given out which truly would be rewarding?
    That's a question I don't even pretend to have a clue to answer. I just hope the development team is considering what could be dropped of value beyond epic gear.

    Solving this problem would solve the second half to the foundry mission issues...
    But the first half is to be unbiased in which foundry missions players should do for the daily reward.



    Out of curiousity, what is the system STO Adopted?
    <Can't get interested in anything Star Trek if his life depended on it>

    What you propose would be a good solution. Still, you must know the natural result will be to make 60 minute quests the mini-max solution because running around and collecting missions takes up a bit of time. But like you said, it might be a lesser evil than what currently exists.

    Also, this will not solve the problem of speedrunning, as the mainstream are going to whip through content as efficiently as possible to maximize their gain. This will hold true whether it's 15 or 60 minute quests. This isn't a bad thing, people's time is valuable and there's lots of stuff they want to do. Obviously there is a smaller subsegment of players who play for purely the experience, D&D lore, and the like.

    As to the last issue, I think Ellindar proposed an idea earlier of dropping various rare or vanity type items is a good one. Max level chars need more options and viable, rewarding content.

    I still like the idea of high level authors getting additional quest-related perks & having the ability to craft unique & fun named epic gear. This would certainly incentivize foundry progression in a meaningful way, aside from just getting a pet or a mount.
    Dzogen, Moonstar Agent
    Bill's Tavern | The 27th Level | Secret Agent 34
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    meedacthunistmeedacthunist Member Posts: 3,085
    edited June 2013
    Out of curiousity, what is the system STO Adopted?
    <Can't get interested in anything Star Trek if his life depended on it>

    STO ditched Foundry dailies and instead went with system where completed Foundries are awarded with XP, dilithium (STO equivalent of AD) and cash proportionally to their average play time.
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    mosby1mosby1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 288 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    savaikun wrote: »
    Grab daily foundry - be given 4 random quests. Do them or don't do them. Rewards given after completion based on length of time. It's that simple. Problem(s) all fixed.

    I don't think I like the idea of getting 4 random quests for the daily -- but the idea has potential.

    I also play Lord of the Rings Online. That MMO has a Group Finder tool. You can select quests to do in different ways. You can select 1 (or more) specific quests to do, or you can select general categories of quests, up to fully random - any quest (for your group size).

    The key is, the more quests you allow as options, the larger the bonus you get. The bonus is a % of loot increase (up to 50% I think). So, they want to encourage you to be open to more quests - that way, other people using the Group Finder are more likely to find potential team mates for the quest(s) they are willing to do.

    Something like that could work for the Foundry. You could set certain parameters (min/max time being the obvious one, maybe min rating, or Best/Featured/etc). Then a random one is chosen for you. If you complete it, you get some kind of loot bonus.

    It would work better if we had more accurate information about the quests. It's great that the author says it's made for two players or whatever, but an objective calculated difficulty rating would be better (though very hard to do, since we use encounters as timers and such). I suppose they could track how much damage was done by (or to) the mobs each time, and keep and average like they do for time.

    I for one would be quite willing to play a random foundry quest pretty often. Heck, I do that pretty often anyway. When I'm not playing a particular quest to trade reviews, I usually just browse around and pick one that sounds interesting.
    DM's Studio - NW-DHZ5DAV4R
    The Cursed Emerald:
    1. Weird of the Weather-witch -- NW-DEZAK4QPA
    2. The Ambitious Apprentice -- NW-DLRAVW4S4
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    visigoth18visigoth18 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 371 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    savaikun wrote: »
    ...the hell is STO?
    lol, StarTrek is cool >.<
    wuhsin wrote: »
    You know the Gamefly commercial where the people just bought a bad game and are throwing a hissy fit, tossing their tv's/game consoles out the window, etc? It's somewhat like that. n.n
    lol, awesome example XD
    STO ditched Foundry dailies and instead went with system where completed Foundries are awarded with XP, dilithium (STO equivalent of AD) and cash proportionally to their average play time.
    This sounds like a great system Why The <Censored> doesn't ours work like this!?
    jlTYaLC.gif
    1.jpglXK5k1F.png
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    zahinderzahinder Member Posts: 897 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    You know, as I had to abandon a third Foundry mission I was playing today, it should be noted that one pressure for people to avoid new Foundry content is simply the gamble.

    There's a good chance the mission will not only not be interesting, but you'll find yourself roadblocked and have to quit out, having utterly wasted your time.

    (Thankfully, 2 of the three missions I had to abandon WERE pretty cool, so I'll probably do them again down the road)
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

    Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?

    Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?

    Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited June 2013
    Yep speed rushing will always be common but what I like most about that is it will lessen the demand to speed rush. A few pages back I related this system to a Goldilocks System where 14 minutes is too short, 16 minutes is too long and 15 minutes is just right.
    If it required 60 minutes average playtime people would still rush but at least they would be rewarded for every minute of average playtime rather than perpetually trying to do every mission in 15 minutes or less. Rushers will always ecist but it will diminish those who rush by cutting the carrot in half.

    Of course I really like the idea of unique rewards for doing Foundry Content. Look at next week's events for instance. Good deal.

    The issue I see it is could cause two problems:
    My goal is to stop this 15 minute reward or nothing system and if the loot is tied to the end result most people would probably continue through doing as many quests within 15 minutes as they can.
    Or if the drops are random from creatures players will abuse it like they did when the game was first released which is why the Foundry is so debatably under-rewarding now.

    I find good things from the longer quests now but it was overall better before Cryptic was forced to put an end to it. There's no easy balance between preventing players creating farming maps and rewarding quality content for quality time. Heck in my opinion it might have to come down to Cryptic Employees (who really do often play your content) to mark them as getting upper end drops.

    Heck perhaps every week the dev's should run through the missions of the week, at the very least, and adjust a flag that would increase the rewards and remove some of the XP limitations. I'm not sure but the current system has to be changed to benefit more authors and more varying content.
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    visigoth18visigoth18 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 371 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    You know...I haven't been able to stop thinking about this, and the more I think about it the more it <Censored> <Censored> me off >.< Why is our system like this when they changed the same type of system in STO to one that supposedly works better? are the two teams in different buildings? is their no cross communication!

    This along with a poor way of categorizing [UGC] are serious problems!

    I get the feeling we wont get a better system till after months "once the game is less popular" which saddens me "by that time authors will have gotten burned out and left"
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited June 2013
    I believe we had the STO System along with the Daily Reward.


    The problem is that the Launch Crowd abused the heck out of it with their vile cheating claiming:
    "You gave this tool to use so we could make content we like well the content I like is a cheat button!"
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    crok2crok2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    "...well the content I like is a cheat button!"


    lol that was the gist of what most were saying :D
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    visigoth18visigoth18 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 371 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    I guess I'm not of that mind set because I don't get how you can cheat? I thought the cheating was with things like "make it so mobs are trapped and can be killed easily" and others along those lines...
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    kamaliiciouskamaliicious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Heck in my opinion it might have to come down to Cryptic Employees (who really do often play your content) to mark them as getting upper end drops.
    During beta, I was able to show they didn't play all the contest entries. So maybe they have started.
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    thatguy185thatguy185 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I think to help this you can split up your hour or so long quest into shorter segments and make it a campaign. That way you still have people playing the now shorter quest which can give them daily credit and then after completing the first part they can get credit for the next. This also gives players time to vendor items take a break and still enjoy your whole quest if they decide to continue it.
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    visigoth18visigoth18 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 371 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Trying to split a story can be difficult... it defiantly takes more skill "PersonallY I find it difficult"
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    dzogendzogen Member Posts: 550 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Heck in my opinion it might have to come down to Cryptic Employees (who really do often play your content) to mark them as getting upper end drops.

    Ok, it's cool to know that the people themselves who made this great game are actually playing Foundry. Since you're being so generous with your responses & ideas, I have to ask....

    1) which quests do the Cryptic Employees like the most?

    2) And how does featured work exactly? Are you guys all just swilling beers and throw a dart at the board or is there some secret formula or nomination process? Would you ever consider a non-D&Dish themed quest, or a virtually unknown quest?
    Dzogen, Moonstar Agent
    Bill's Tavern | The 27th Level | Secret Agent 34
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    x0y1x0y1 Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    visigoth18 wrote: »
    This sounds like a great system Why The <Censored> doesn't ours work like this!?
    Well I posted this before
    Throw out the daily NWO foundry mission and just copy STO


    The Foundry daily missions have been replaced.

    • The existing daily missions have been removed.
    • Now, all qualifying Foundry missions will automatically reward a scaling amount of Dilithium (from 480-1140) and skill points/expertise.
      • Dilithium will be rewarded based on the average playtime of the mission.
    • All spotlight missions will reward the same as a qualifying mission, with two exceptions:
      • Once every 24 hours, the first spotlight mission completed in that time frame will get a bonus 1440 Dilithium.
      • Once every 24 hours, the first spotlight mission completed in that time frame will get a scaling amount of Energy Credits, based on the player's level.



    Easy solution. The could even add a bonus for the first time you play a "new" foundry mission......



    I consider NWO as the evil twin. STO does a lot of things very different and much better then this game does. But to be fair it was a long learning process and if you still don't know why NWO has this foundry >=15 minute limit:
    The number of players that were earning 1440 dilithium on all of their ALTs by running simple Foundry missions (ie - click one thing on Earth Space Dock) and then selling that Dilithium to the exchange, then buying it back on their main forced us to make this change.

    If you want the 1440 Dilithium from the Foundry daily - you must play a Foundry mission that "qualifies" - meaning it has to be at least 15 minutes of gameplay.

    We've held off on making this change in the hopes that players would police the simple missions and have them removed - but it just didn't happen.

    If we had a better solution for the Foundry daily, we would go with it - but for now - Sorry you have to play at least a 15 minute long mission.

    We will look into increasing the reward if the average length of Foundry missions that players are playing is greater than 15 minutes - but we're waiting to see if players will stop using these missions as an "easy" way to get Dilithium.
    dastahl
    Cryptic Studios Team
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    visigoth18visigoth18 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 371 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    x0y1 wrote: »
    ...

    I think that sounds amazing
    and I would love bonuses for playing "NEW" missions...We Need Change!
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    talesmithtalesmith Member Posts: 116
    edited June 2013
    I agree with pretty much everything in the op.
    I'd say the foundry system needs some categories to publish and sort and search under, so it's easier to find the type of quest you're interested in. Ultimately it boils down to the playerbase though, most players, especially mmo players, are looking for fast food in terms of gaming.
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    visigoth18visigoth18 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 371 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    talesmith wrote: »
    most players, especially mmo players, are looking for fast food in terms of gaming.
    Yeah I defiantly agree with that "and theirs nothing wrong with it" but man would it be awesome if the system didn't only pander to that type of gameplay. a system that made it easy for everyone to find the type of content they want to play would be so much better "and one that didn't only reward 'fast food' but just the fact that your 'eating out at all' would be best" >D
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited June 2013
    dzogen wrote: »
    Ok, it's cool to know that the people themselves who made this great game are actually playing Foundry. Since you're being so generous with your responses & ideas, I have to ask....

    1) which quests do the Cryptic Employees like the most?

    2) And how does featured work exactly? Are you guys all just swilling beers and throw a dart at the board or is there some secret formula or nomination process? Would you ever consider a non-D&Dish themed quest, or a virtually unknown quest?

    1) I can't really answer that. Not only can I not say for sure but it's really not an appropriate thing for me to disclose. I can only tell you the staff members I do speak to often enjoy the Foundry Content immensely.

    2) There's a post here somewhere but I haven't been able to find it. Basically it's kind of a mix between what the community likes and what the staff likes. Sometimes the staff will highlight something they really enjoyed and other times they'll choose from some of the top rated and/or played content. There was a bit more specifics in the post but I can't find it at the moment.

    I'm not sure what the rulings on Featured Quests are but the definitions of D&D are pretty loose. They don't have to be serious quests or cite any specific D&D Locations in order to be featured.
    However they will have to fall into the general theme of D&D and not be something like Harry Potter.

    If you can make a non-D&D Topic fit into a D&D theme, more power to you. Some great storylines such as the Halo Storylines are actually analogies of completely different topics of discussion and can certainly be used effectively in NW and D&D content as well.

    It's very unlikely that Featured Content would ever be something that can't fit into the mold of a D&D Theme though. No spaceships or inter-galactic travel please.
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    visigoth18visigoth18 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 371 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    No spaceships or inter-galactic travel please.
    Aww...But Space Chickens rock
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    lolsorhandlolsorhand Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 981 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    visigoth18 wrote: »
    Aww...But Space Chickens rock

    i lol'd :P
    I like turtles.

    Brethren of the Five, Campaign. - Story focused
    The Dwarven Tale - Hack 'N Slash
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    thestoryteller01thestoryteller01 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    visigoth18 wrote: »
    Aww...But Space Chickens rock

    I'd prefer space chicks ;)

    But honestly, I am sure it wont be long until some clever and creative Foundry author manages to use the assets for creating some kind of space ship interior and/or Aliens :cool:
    In case you find my grammar or spelling weird ---> native german speaker ;)
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    delthanindelthanin Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 188 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    No spaceships or inter-galactic travel please.

    But... but where will the miniaturized space hamsters come from?
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    revelationmdrevelationmd Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I've only read up to page 6 or 7 of this thread so someone may have already covered what I am about to say.... A few people have put forward the idea of breaking down foundry average play time into 15 minute chunks so that a quest that has an average play time of 30 minutes counts as two daily foundries etc.

    A perhaps minor spanner in the works of that idea would be quests like mine, which has a 45 min average play time due to the fact that there is quite a lot of reading / dialogue involved (if I am honest, probably too much). I could see a situation where for every 5 players playing the quest properly i.e. reading the text to understand the story, you would have one player 'track and field tapping' through the text to finish it quick for the three daily foundry reward. I realise that if enough people did that then it would be self defeating for both the rush player and the story player. In the long run, the story player will take 45 minutes playing a quest that will only reward 2 foundry completes.

    I dunno, a minor consideration probably. Other than that I think the idea is a sound one.
    Quest Name: In search of Innocence | Foundry code: NW-DL8DTYYPS.

    Heavy on story/plot. Expect to read (and think) a lot to get the most out of the quest. Will probably appeal to roleplayers though that is not to say that there are no tough fights - could be challenging for solo play.
    Average play time: 45 mins
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