Some good things here - my picks that would not break the action MMO format:
Skill selection and checks - allow us to choose our trained skills, add a wider variety of non-combat skills, and implement a wider variety of applications than just skill nodes (like the situations where Dungeoneering checks opens a secret door or similar). I'm also not sure any of them should have a 100% or 0% success rate. Make it a high success for trained checks, medium success for untrained with a skill kit (you could add different quality kits in too if you wanted), and very low success for untrained checks without a kit - this would feel a lot more like a d20 system. Multiple failures should prevent future attempts, and failures should accrue across the party to encourage party members with trained skills to make the attempts.
Non-combat magic - ritual magic should be possible outside of combat (raise dead, teleport to Protector's Enclave for example)
Weapon type customisation - an NPC smith that can take a Longsword and turn it into a Dwarven Hammer with exactly the same stats. Similarly, holy symbols should be customisable to be visibly appropriate to deity or wizard implements to not be limited to orbs. This would of course cost money - perhaps AD for a single item change, or Zen to unlock a weapon appearance permanently on a character.
More puzzles and non-combat quests generally, perhaps giving non-XP rewards such as zone completion but not required for XP progression if balance is an issue.
Active racial powers that can be slotted as encounters
Magic items with active powers that can be slotted, more iconically named D&D wondrous items, weapons and armours.
Deity selection changing the flavour of Divine class powers. More deities available.
More power selection/variety generally so that all members of a given class don't feel so cookie cutter. I personally don't really believe PvP balance is worth striving for since D&D classes by their very nature are meant to fulfill different roles and have very different strengths and weaknesses, so this variety in PvE is more important to me than PvP balance considerations but I realise that's probably not the view of the devs/publishers/other players.
Thats a solid culmination. I would add more repercussion on dying. It just, i mean you dont lose anything. Traps and puzzles in epic dungeons that STOP progression unless dealt with. And reward quality loot when completed. Just a little more passive growth i think is also a must. At least 1 extra passive slot.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Locked doors, self explanatory. If you dont have a rogue in your party. Just turn around because your quest is over now. Simple. and D&D through and through.
That would be silly. The one thing I hated about DDO was that no matter how strong or smart your character was, you couldn't use tools, magic (apart from Knock) or brute strength to get past locked doors. Sure, those methods would probably be noisy and alert all sorts of attention.
What about people who don't want to cheat? The Secret World had quests that would make even single player puzzle games envious.
That would be silly. The one thing I hated about DDO was that no matter how strong or smart your character was, you couldn't use tools, magic (apart from Knock) or brute strength to get past locked doors. Sure, those methods would probably be noisy and alert all sorts of attention.
Nah, there of course can be exceptions, dungeoneering, in dungeons. Nature skill in outside areas to get things done. But to move through the whole entire game without these kinds of issues a rogue should be needed as that is what they have always done best. Nope. Not silly to me.
Good instead.:)
Hmm. Well the very first thing that comes to mind is one of the very first things I'd do in D&D when creating a new character. There was a nice big square on the player sheet to draw what your character looked like. Yes, this and most MMOs have great character customization for what your character will look like when he's naked but that is only half of it. The more important and fun part for me was coming up with what my character will wear. What all of his gear will look like. And this is where most MMOs lack the customization. And thus the players lacking true pride in the characters that they've created.
If I start off as some fighter class why do I have to have the same crappy cheap looking armor that all the other fighter guys have? Did all of us new adventurers go shopping at "Ye Olde Cheap Identical Armor Emporium"? What if Just before I left home my father gave me his armor and it was charcoal gray with a hint of red on it somewhere? And as a kid I remember seeing that armor growing up and I was so proud when it was passed down to me. And from that day forward I chose to keep those colors for any armor that I wore/found in the future.
If I start off as a rogue maybe I want to wear pure black leather everything. And I want to wear a belt with pouches on it and a pure black cloak.
Maybe as a ranger I want to wear all natural colored leather and add a splash of color with my bright green cloak
This was one of the greatest things about Neverwinter Nights. You could fully customize all the parts and colors of your clothing or armor. So when you would walk around town with your unique special look, everyone would know exactly who you were and you could also instantly spot the other people as well. Oh look there's Cleric Clara with her pure pink full plate. Hey there's Henry "The Hornet" Smithson wearing his traditional black and yellow armor. Haha.
So my point in short is that with the ability to truly alter the appearance of our outfits (without having to pay for it with real money from a cash shop) it adds a whole other level of pride of our characters and a want to really join in the community to flaunt yourself or RP or what not. And as a long time D&D player this to me was always one of the most important things in the creation of any one of my characters.
Multi-classing is not an easy task due to the way the game works...
It's the same reason you can't swap to a bow. It's simply not very feasible to implement with the action combat power based mechanics.
On top of that multi-classing is good for one thing and one thing only: overpowered as hell builds.
Third Edition created this ridiculous craze with multi-classing and made it so multi-classing was a pure on requirement. I love Third Edition but this was a major issue which created stupidly over-powered characters which could only be confronted by making stupidly overpowered creatures. That's inflation and any economist could tell you inflation is bad for everything in the long term.
Which is why multi-classing was actually outright removed from Fourth Edition until players, such as the ones in this thread, whined so much at wizards that they added it back but still broke it down to the more balanced positions we see in First and Second Edition.
So a bit of a History Lesson: there were two types of "Multi-class" support in First and Second Edition and were ALL restricted by race.
Dual Classing - Restricted to Humans Only. A character could level to a certain point and then give up their first classes abilities completely until they outleveled their original class. Essentially it starts you over from the beginning. Very difficult!
Multi-Classing was similar to what we now call Hybrid Classing which is that based on your race you could choose a certain race restricted class combinations to level from level one at a much slower experience progression. Fighter/Wizard, Wizard/Thief or the much coveted Fighter/Mage/Thief which was restricted to half-elves only.
These restrictions went away in Third Edition and thus Wizards of the Coast shot themselves in the foot and made a completely unbalanced min-max system. While it was enjoyable it was a complete and utter nightmare which resulted in requiring balancing on min-max playstyles and this is, while enjoyable to some, not ideal.
Third Edition multi-classing is gone and unlikely to ever return. It was and always will be a mistake. A catastophe which proves that what players like is not always a good thing.
If multi-class support was added to the game you would be talking years down the road, not months, because even Fourth Edition Multi-classing is filled with overpowered nonsense which would completely trivialize Neverwinter.
Imagine Rogues using entangle and stun chains. If half the time invested into requesting multi-classing was spent considering the adverse side effects it wouldn't be up for debate as to why it isn't here or at least isn't here yet. It's a balancing nightmare and frankly would have to be very much restricted.
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but it is first and foremost the truth. Consider the problems which multi-classing brings into the game because wanting without considering the implications is what caused Third Edition to be the best and worst edition at the same time.
You make a some fair points but most of that i just flat out disagree with. It sounds like we were playing different games. Cross classing was awesome and it increased options for every single player playing the game. In my experience 3ed and 3 1/2 was enjoyable for MOST, not some, closer to ALL in fact. Not sure what angle your taking, maybe from the standpoint of the company making money? Because as a D&D experience goes that will always be highlighted by RP and options. 2nd to 3 1/2 video games had much more RP and options then 4e will ever be capable of imho. Not to mention every single RL friend i game with cant stand 4e and loves 2nd ed to 3.5 as i do. Its so crystal clear, to me at least, that 4e is dumbed down and designed for onlineMMO play. Nothing dumbed down will ever achieve a better D&D experience. This thread is about getting D&D into this actionMMO. As far as getting that done even in 4e AC is hit or miss, thats as fundamental as anything D&D in world yes?. If it must be 4e then lets put the 4e rules into play.:)
Im starting to feel like Sominator replies with the same quote every time lol. Like he just copies and pasts his response, I would love to see more elaborated responses from PW. Like "Hey this is a great idea...blah blah blah...I've talked to the devs about etc etc and blah blah blah is in the works." Ya know have a conversation with people not a 1 sentenced response deserving of a "," not a "!".
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
The angle is somebody who has experience balancing games.
Third Edition is an unbalanced monster which was only made balanced by making everything into an unbalanced monster.
In development terms it's the accumlation of something called "Power Creep."
As you watch that video understand that while the guys are talking about this mainly from a Video Game standpoint power creep does exist in all games which are expanded and adapted over time. So it goes into the whole "Bigger Guns and Faster Levels" statement they say partway into the video.
That's what third edition did to multi-classing. It gave everybody bigger guns faster. It was so over the top good to multi-class that to not multi-class was detrimental and worse yet it removed basically every negative for multi-classing so there was really little detrimental side effects to multi-classing.
Now I loved third edition as a player. You could break the game so easily that it was extremely fun to play. Afterall people like to feel powerful.
The problem is that I also spent my fair share of time making content for NWN and designing around multi-class powerful builds is virtually impossible. Content too hard would make it impossible to play a normal character but if it wasn't at that bar players would burn through the cntent effortlessly. I was one of the power-build players so I knew just how far I could push content. My collegues actually got ticked off because they would design group content which myself and my uncle could solo.
As a player that's really satisfying...
As a developer it's a <censor> nightmare.
So you get stuck between a rock and a hard place: design around the broken overpowered builds and exile the more casual builds or you simply allow power players to upset the game balance. It's not an easy decision.
Well, as somebody who is interested in the long term benefit of the game...
Multi-classing does nothing but make overpowered builds in any D&D Edition. It adds options, yes, but those options always lead to a more powerful character with few drawbacks.
This is something which players like. Bigger guns and faster levels, woohoo. But it's not balanced so by adding multi-classing the entire game gets tossed into a whole different league due to the power creep.
That's why DDO revolves around such min-max settings. I had a rogue with 14 intelligence and by the time I reached level 8 I was completely unable to advance because the game was designed for maxed character settings. If it wasn't balanced around players maxing out their character the game would be truly effortless and borderline exploitable. So Turbine made the hard choice to balance the game around the max builds.
Third Edition is fun. It's my second favorite edition in fact. Fourth I actually don't have a lot of love for and I much prefer Second Edition. However I like Third Edition purely because the game is so horribly designed that power-builds are truly effortless to make. It makes me feel powerful...that's great.
But it's not a good system. I don't feel it works well in an MMO setting at all because it can't possibly be balanced to cater to both casual and hard-core players.
And at the heart of the balancing issue with Third Edition is the multi-classing feature. Multi-classing as players want is in third because of the out of balance power it gives. That's power which should have never seen the light of day in any MMO since their survival and appeal, despite everybody's desire for power, relies on balanced gameplay.
Third Edition Multi-classing is gone. Forever. Just like there are so many Magic the Gathering Cards which are gone forever to never be reprinted for their god awful over-powered nonsense.
Fourth Edition failed to kill multi-classing but it moderated it to the a more Second Edition power scale...
But those mechanics just don't play well in NW to begin with.
You make a some fair points but most of that i just flat out disagree with. It sounds like we were playing different games. Cross classing was awesome and it increased options for every single player playing the game. In my experience 3ed and 3 1/2 was enjoyable for MOST, not some, closer to ALL in fact. Not sure what angle your taking, maybe from the standpoint of the company making money? Because as a D&D experience goes that will always be highlighted by RP and options. 2nd to 3 1/2 video games had much more RP and options then 4e will ever be capable of imho. Not to mention every single RL friend i game with cant stand 4e and loves 2nd ed to 3.5 as i do. Its so crystal clear, to me at least, that 4e is dumbed down and designed for onlineMMO play. Nothing dumbed down will ever achieve a better D&D experience. This thread is about getting D&D into this actionMMO. As far as getting that done even in 4e AC is hit or miss, thats as fundamental as anything D&D in world yes?. If it must be 4e then lets put the 4e rules into play.:)
I'd like to add that I've played NWN in multiplayer servers for almost a decade, that game was based in d&d 3rd edition; even bioware stated that the game was never going to be balanced for PvP and I can tell that it was not balanced for PvE either; In those multiplayer servers the DM's managed to balance the 3e NWN adapted mechanics, for PvP and in some servers for PvE. Personally, I was a fan of PvP and played for a long time in Action Full PvP servers. I can tell that it was the best PvP I have ever played in any game, specially team based PvP. So, if cryptic takes 4e as a base to create NW, which as a much better balanced multiclassing, they should try to figure out the way to introduce multiclassing in a way that it's balanced for PvE and PvP; it may not be easy but I can tell that it would be a blast to have it in NW.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
Alignment is unofficially removed from Fourth Edition. It has absolutely no function whatsoever past saying "I'm this alignment" on your character sheet. Not a single mechanic within Fourth Edition checks for alignment.
It's only on character sheets as a legacy effect.
And with a bit of consideration it's honesty better off that way despite the cries from the fans. Game of Thrones does an excellent job of tearing up the elementary school idea of good and evil that is present in D&D and throwing it back in your face.
The good characters are often the evil characters. The evil characters are often the good characters. The truly good characters die and the truly evil characters are invisible forever.
The alignment system, despite becoming a player in D&D Next, was better off removed from the game and left as a roleplay only mechanic.
I have to agree and disagree, I will use this analogy to try and express my general and specific ideas of how to use more of D&D to make this a better game. (First the theory then the ideas)
Yes George RR Martin does an astounding job at bringing unpredictable characters to life but I can for sure identify alignments in them(especially the lawful/chaotic bit), and I can also identify alignment changes, something that is very much D&D. As a pen and paper player (from your knowledge I assume you are one too) I give a lot of importance to Campaign Settings, and in this matter I truly believe that Worlds are key to how alignment is used no matter what edition we are playing.
What I mean is, in the World of Game of Thrones the definition of good and evil is a lot more ambiguous than it is in Forgotten Realms, but that characteristic is part of the setting itself, by option, by default, by definition and in the case of Forgotten Realms there are millions of words of content/plot that depend on this very important characteristic. This notion of Campaign Setting is paramount to how a PnP game flows but is at least as important to how a CRPG plays.
Why? Because the more you identify with something the more engaging it becomes. As an example, one of the most important factors for a fun ROLE-PLAY is to pick a side, even if temporarily, and often that fun comes from being/acting something you cant IRL, this is called escapism, its fun and its healthy. And despite FR being a very mature setting, one where there are plenty of factions to be apart of/fight against in this game you dont pick sides. In PvE everybody that is playing a character is on the same side ALWAYS, and in PvP you are part of a temporary side. I know this is an MMO and we need to tend to a very specific crowd, but there are for sure ways of improving this.
I enjoy this game, I really do, but if I had to give a reason to why I do I would have to say that this is a very good execution of an already existing formula for MMOs. And yes there are some innovations, but they are within the scope of the magic MMO formula.
The number one rule of D&D is adapt the rules, a good DM will know how to execute the "law" depending on the situation. On this note I think PW did an excellent job in adapating the MMO formula so that even hardcore D&D fans can enjoy the very often boring "mechanical", "action" , "power gaming" part of it all, what is really missing is the opposite, making the RP part of it integrate so well that even power gamers can enjoy the content. If achieved this would be the game of the decade.
I shall be more specific now:
- Use factions from the FR setting for players to be a part of and add this to giving function to guilds beyond them being just grinding pals. For example, region control, yes there are other MMOs that have already played well and enough with this idea, but none had the immense background that FR has. You have already used this in excellent fashion to make all the lvling/grinding/repetitive bit of the game a lot more tolerable, take the next step.
- The foundry is an excellent initiative, and there are already some very good creations out there, but it is way too limited. I understand, again it is an MMO, but a lot of the problems in giving freedom to creators can be solved by making them jump hoops before you allow them to use certain freedoms, and having resources to approve quality content is not expensive if that content brings you players. As you know well there are plenty of examples in all of the NWN legacy of community found success.
- You have Dungeons, you have Dragons, but you dont have adventures. Missions are not adventures, I would bet all my Astral Diamonds that all your resources are working on more Dungeons, more high-end content, more food for the power gaming hungry, and you should! But again, take the next step, fill the gap, create real adventure content, with adventure elements (theres nothing like it in the game so far, not even the foundry stuff due to the limitations).
I'd like to add that I've played NWN in multiplayer servers for almost a decade, that game was based in d&d 3rd edition; even bioware stated that the game was never going to be balanced for PvP and I can tell that it was not balanced for PvE either; In those multiplayer servers the DM's managed to balance the 3e NWN adapted mechanics, for PvP and in some servers for PvE. Personally, I was a fan of PvP and played for a long time in Action Full PvP servers. I can tell that it was the best PvP I have ever played in any game, specially team based PvP. So, if cryptic takes 4e as a base to create NW, which as a much better balanced multiclassing, they should try to figure out the way to introduce multiclassing in a way that it's balanced for PvE and PvP; it may not be easy but I can tell that it would be a blast to have it in NW.
Yep. And if some guy in his basement building and scripting an NWN PW server (points to himself) can bring some sense of balance by nerfing and tweaking a bit here and there (mostly feats and spells), then a professional team should be able to do the same. And for those talking about how 3rd and 3.5 addition multiclassing can create overpowered character builds that can be used to exploit...isn't that already happening in this game?
The angle is somebody who has experience balancing games.
Third Edition is an unbalanced monster which was only made balanced by making everything into an unbalanced monster.
In development terms it's the accumlation of something called "Power Creep."
As you watch that video understand that while the guys are talking about this mainly from a Video Game standpoint power creep does exist in all games which are expanded and adapted over time. So it goes into the whole "Bigger Guns and Faster Levels" statement they say partway into the video.
That's what third edition did to multi-classing. It gave everybody bigger guns faster. It was so over the top good to multi-class that to not multi-class was detrimental and worse yet it removed basically every negative for multi-classing so there was really little detrimental side effects to multi-classing.
Now I loved third edition as a player. You could break the game so easily that it was extremely fun to play. Afterall people like to feel powerful.
The problem is that I also spent my fair share of time making content for NWN and designing around multi-class powerful builds is virtually impossible. Content too hard would make it impossible to play a normal character but if it wasn't at that bar players would burn through the cntent effortlessly. I was one of the power-build players so I knew just how far I could push content. My collegues actually got ticked off because they would design group content which myself and my uncle could solo.
As a player that's really satisfying...
As a developer it's a <censor> nightmare.
So you get stuck between a rock and a hard place: design around the broken overpowered builds and exile the more casual builds or you simply allow power players to upset the game balance. It's not an easy decision.
Well, as somebody who is interested in the long term benefit of the game...
Multi-classing does nothing but make overpowered builds in any D&D Edition. It adds options, yes, but those options always lead to a more powerful character with few drawbacks.
This is something which players like. Bigger guns and faster levels, woohoo. But it's not balanced so by adding multi-classing the entire game gets tossed into a whole different league due to the power creep.
That's why DDO revolves around such min-max settings. I had a rogue with 14 intelligence and by the time I reached level 8 I was completely unable to advance because the game was designed for maxed character settings. If it wasn't balanced around players maxing out their character the game would be truly effortless and borderline exploitable. So Turbine made the hard choice to balance the game around the max builds.
Third Edition is fun. It's my second favorite edition in fact. Fourth I actually don't have a lot of love for and I much prefer Second Edition. However I like Third Edition purely because the game is so horribly designed that power-builds are truly effortless to make. It makes me feel powerful...that's great.
But it's not a good system. I don't feel it works well in an MMO setting at all because it can't possibly be balanced to cater to both casual and hard-core players.
And at the heart of the balancing issue with Third Edition is the multi-classing feature. Multi-classing as players want is in third because of the out of balance power it gives. That's power which should have never seen the light of day in any MMO since their survival and appeal, despite everybody's desire for power, relies on balanced gameplay.
Third Edition Multi-classing is gone. Forever. Just like there are so many Magic the Gathering Cards which are gone forever to never be reprinted for their god awful over-powered nonsense.
Fourth Edition failed to kill multi-classing but it moderated it to the a more Second Edition power scale...
But those mechanics just don't play well in NW to begin with.
This gives more perspective on the topic for sure. And i agree with this especially the "As a player that's really satisfying" well sir, im a player. I want really satisfying...Every player here wants really satisfying. 3.0 is alot of fun and 4e isnt alot of fun. The MTG reference was interesting as we play tabletop with most of the cards that are "gone forever" including some power 9. Any other form of magic for me is "soft" and impure. Just like 4e. Youll get no argument from me about the 3 31/2 mechanics not playing well in NW though. As the game is designed to be limited and pigeontoe the option capabilities and any real D&D implementations. Thats awesome for the devs.....but surely your not suggesting we as players look at this game through developers eyes...are you?
I'd like to add that I've played NWN in multiplayer servers for almost a decade, that game was based in d&d 3rd edition; even bioware stated that the game was never going to be balanced for PvP and I can tell that it was not balanced for PvE either; In those multiplayer servers the DM's managed to balance the 3e NWN adapted mechanics, for PvP and in some servers for PvE. Personally, I was a fan of PvP and played for a long time in Action Full PvP servers. I can tell that it was the best PvP I have ever played in any game, specially team based PvP. So, if cryptic takes 4e as a base to create NW, which as a much better balanced multiclassing, they should try to figure out the way to introduce multiclassing in a way that it's balanced for PvE and PvP; it may not be easy but I can tell that it would be a blast to have it in NW.
As far as PvP i wouldn't know were to start. Short of things like a DM event, underdark drow raids in NWN/NWN2 i have never cared much for PvP. Especially the PvP format in NW. Completely defer to you Vold on anything PvP related. Played those 2 games for 7 years. We had a large clan of dwarves and seldom had a party less then 6. It was rare to ever be attacked at all by other players.
Traps to be more meaningful. At the moment it is just an annoyance. Make them insta death and the give the TR a reason to disarm them ;-)
could not agree more after all that one of the key roles of a rogue!! also make the traps invisible to everyone else and have rogues spot them... also bonus xp for disarming all the traps is a good idea.
It's not extremely hard but in that day in age everybody was in a group. Imagine in Neverwinter you are a level 25 starting over again as a level one. Yeah without a party I don't think it would be entirely possible but Fourth Edition Rules for Dual Classing are quite different, thankfully.
In fact those asking for it should probably look it up. It is NOTHING like Third Edition.
Third Edition multi-classing is more akin to "Hybrid Classing" in Fourth Edition except that you have to declare the hybridization at level one.
Also all multi-classing is overpowered in some way. However the difference between Third Edition and the rest of the Editions Muli-class power is like day and night. Multi-classing as a whole in D&D is out of balance which is why they tried to remove it but First, Second and Fourth do a far better job of controlling multi-class power than Third Edition.
With that being said, my wishes:
Skill Checks
More non-combat skills and more ways to use them
improved Traps
Activated Items
Activated Spell-like Abilities
The ability to purchase default Weapon Appearances (Scimitars/axes...etc)
Expanded Deity Selections
Dieties Effecting possible power selections
Light Sources
Vision Impairment
Alternate Starting Locations
Oh the list could go on. There's so many great features from D&D which need a bit more love here but the game is at a great starting point.
Alignment is unofficially removed from Fourth Edition. It has absolutely no function whatsoever past saying "I'm this alignment" on your character sheet. Not a single mechanic within Fourth Edition checks for alignment.
It's only on character sheets as a legacy effect.
And with a bit of consideration it's honesty better off that way despite the cries from the fans. Game of Thrones does an excellent job of tearing up the elementary school idea of good and evil that is present in D&D and throwing it back in your face.
The good characters are often the evil characters. The evil characters are often the good characters. The truly good characters die and the truly evil characters are invisible forever.
The alignment system, despite becoming a player in D&D Next, was better off removed from the game and left as a roleplay only mechanic.
Thats a good wish list minus the word "activated" replace that with "passive" and we want the same thing.
Yep. And if some guy in his basement building and scripting an NWN PW server (points to himself) can bring some sense of balance by nerfing and tweaking a bit here and there (mostly feats and spells), then a professional team should be able to do the same. And for those talking about how 3rd and 3.5 addition multiclassing can create overpowered character builds that can be used to exploit...isn't that already happening in this game?
Yah... all true. That could be done. If any form of D&D(4e) is gonna be implemented they have to install at least a varied game design. Which can be done. However, I dont think changes like this will fly with the wow gen. This is WOTC shot at a larger audience. We, the smaller denomination will not get this change that would allow for a more realistic D&D environment. But im convinced thats were it starts, either through modules or recoding. The base game has to change somewhat to live up to even the dumbed down 4e standard.
Many folks want a D&D RPG. The funny thing is WOTC wants an actionMMO. As long as that is there goal we are pissing into the wind.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
This gives more perspective on the topic for sure. And i agree with this especially the "As a player that's really satisfying" well sir, im a player. I want really satisfying...Every player here wants really satisfying. 3.0 is alot of fun and 4e isnt alot of fun. The MTG reference was interesting as we play tabletop with most of the cards that are "gone forever" including some power 9. Any other form of magic for me is "soft" and impure. Just like 4e. Youll get no argument from me about the 3 31/2 mechanics not playing well in NW though. As the game is designed to be limited and pigeontoe the option capabilities and any real D&D implementations. Thats awesome for the devs.....but surely your not suggesting we as players look at this game through developers eyes...are you?
Well as I said not everything players like is good for games. Players want to be powerful...until they have it. Then they either get bored or destroy game balance for other players. Either situation can and will kill MMO's.
DDO does all out stupidly overpowered nonsense. Neverwinter Nights was self-regulated by small communities. NW is choosing to keep the game balanced to begin with. Three different approaches. Find the one that fits you best because none of them can be married into an all in one experience.
Bigger guns and faster levels are nice but it doesn't build for long term gameplay. I guarantee the biggest reason DDO loses new players is because instead of trying to make third edition a less obnoxiously overpowered beast they required players to understand how to maximize the potential in characters.
That's good in one sense but in the other it's a niche product designed for a niche group which will only ever cater to a niche portion of that group who lives and breaths min-maxing. Even my uncle who designed the most overpowered non-sense on NWN will not touch DDO because it strives to make everybody the same by making the game black and white "maxed or not maxed."
Well as I said not everything players like is good for games. Players want to be powerful...until they have it. Then they either get bored or destroy game balance for other players. Either situation can and will kill MMO's.
DDO does all out stupidly overpowered nonsense. Neverwinter Nights was self-regulated by small communities. NW is choosing to keep the game balanced to begin with. Three different approaches. Find the one that fits you best because none of them can be married into an all in one experience.
Bigger guns and faster levels are nice but it doesn't build for long term gameplay. I guarantee the biggest reason DDO loses new players is because instead of trying to make third edition a less obnoxiously overpowered beast they required players to understand how to maximize the potential in characters.
That's good in one sense but in the other it's a niche product designed for a niche group which will only ever cater to a niche portion of that group who lives and breaths min-maxing. Even my uncle who designed the most overpowered non-sense on NWN will not touch DDO because it strives to make everybody the same by making the game black and white "maxed or not maxed."
"Activated Items" would be items such as wands and items of power.
I would love some passive items like Boots of Speed but i would settle for anklets of haste, rings of invisibility, Necklace of Fireballs.
See, thats a bummer man, im sure your right but yah. All three married into an all in one experience would be prime. Rings of invisibility, boots of speed, necklace of fireballs...:o even better would be two extra passive skill slots on the gadget bar, or more. I personally would love to see some type of use magic device skill implemented, allowing the use of cross class items. That would make a big difference. Whatever happens, whatever "niche" this game is it needs more D&D. I think we can both agree on that. Good thread. Theres some good ideas floating around these pages.
To explain a bit better, have some kind of content that would make it actually usable to have different kinds of classes. Like rogues finding secret doors and disarming traps for a GOOD reason. Or wizards that could unearth some special info from old runes and texts, warriors breaking down doors or such, Clerics turning undead or communing with their dieties for something. Things like that. What we have now, is a group composition made for battles instead of exploring and dungeon crawling (which IMO is a big part of DnD)
On a sidenote, I'd like for more variation on classes. I mean, atm, we have a Control Wizard, a Devoted Cleric and a Trickster Rogue. Where's the fireball hurling wizard? Or the sneaking thief? Then again, I've heard (by reading the forums) that more classes will be added later
Multi-classing I can live without. It would be fun for more variation, but overall not a needed feature IMO.
I would like to re-run in my mind the charachter generation i loved...
I choose the race first: it gives me significatives and visibles abilities,i remember the immunity of charme and sleep of elves...so example a CW meet a race with immunity to that spell...ok then the CW must change the attack/spell tactic against this race.I like that
I choose the class for example cleric: i remember that depending of the deity i was able or not to use/grant extra/special weapons/spell and I like that
I choose my skills based of my intelligent score, more clever i am more things i can do in the game and I like that
I choose the weapon profiencies and I was able to use very good a weapon or a lot just in a normal way and I like that
I choose carefully where to put my ability score because later I would like to become a Swordmaster or an Assasin and gain new special abilities and I like that...
so what I mean? the point is that I would like to see clearly my choises!
Even if the hybrid form is to hard to develop it without unbalance the game there are some methods to arrange the situation...insert some racial immunities and penalties, give 1 extra power or advantage/bonus based on the the divinity you prey and limit it to another one, insert some skills like Diplomacy(min.15 WIS)to grant esclusive quest, Trading(INT.14) to grant better prices at market with ability checks of course and so on...
I finish saying to DEVS that if there there is zero% to improve character customization D&D STYLE then make it as already done for changes about POWER TREES, first were all free but feels not to build and reach your contemplating and wishes Character but now LIMITING US to levels and points they gave us the feeling and sensations or illusion of building and creating something more personal! "AT THE END, PARADOSSAL, PUTTING MORE LIMITATIONS INCRESED MORE THE SATISFACTION OF THE THINGS YOUR CHARACTER IS ABLE TO DO IF HE IS ONE OF THE FEW ABLE TO DO IT THAN ONE OF THE MOST MILLION SAME CHARACTER"
I've been reading a lot of threads where players complain about class nerfs, overpowered classes... holy trinity setup (tank, healer, dps).
I think that instead of balancing the PvE and PvP according to ideas from players taken from non-d&d games, the balancing should be done mainly thinking on the class roles, this is one of the things I miss.
Defender : Defenders focus on blocking attacking enemies and focusing their attacks on themselves. Defender classes are typically focused on melee combat, however some classes such as Swordmages also have ranged combat capabilities. (wikipedia)
Leader: Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies. Some Leader classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not. (wikipedia)
Striker: Strikers are focused on mobility, dealing heavy damage to single targets and avoiding attacks. Some Striker classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not. (wikipedia)
Controller: Controllers focus on affecting multiple targets at once, either damaging or debuffing them, or altering the battlefield's terrain. Some classes, such as Wizards and Invokers, are focused towards ranged combat, while Druids can specialize in ranged or melee combat. (wikipedia)
Since NW classes are not really classes but Class-Build-Options, they added modified roles depending on the build option of each class:
Control Wizard - Controller (Primary)
Guardian Fighter - Defender (Primary)
Great Weapon Fighter - Striker & Defender (Both Secondary)
Devoted Cleric - Leader (Primary) & Controller (Secondary)
Trickster Rogue - Striker (Primary)
There are players that want all the classes to be equal in PvE and PvP. That cannot happen and that should not happen, in my opinion. What you should try to do is to balance things out for Team PvP and Team PvE, which is what matters in the end because the fun of d&d is to play in a party.
I think that it would be much easier to balance PvP and PvE keeping in mind the roles of each class and how they play in teams, rather than trying to nerf and buff classes to make them equal solo in PvP and PvE.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
I would like to re-run in my mind the charachter generation i loved...
I choose the race first: it gives me significatives and visibles abilities,i remember the immunity of charme and sleep of elves...so example a CW meet a race with immunity to that spell...ok then the CW must change the attack/spell tactic against this race.I like that
I choose the class for example cleric: i remember that depending of the deity i was able or not to use/grant extra/special weapons/spell and I like that
I choose my skills based of my intelligent score, more clever i am more things i can do in the game and I like that
I choose the weapon profiencies and I was able to use very good a weapon or a lot just in a normal way and I like that
I choose carefully where to put my ability score because later I would like to become a Swordmaster or an Assasin and gain new special abilities and I like that...
so what I mean? the point is that I would like to see clearly my choises!
Even if the hybrid form is to hard to develop it without unbalance the game there are some methods to arrange the situation...insert some racial immunities and penalties, give 1 extra power or advantage/bonus based on the the divinity you prey and limit it to another one, insert some skills like Diplomacy(min.15 WIS)to grant esclusive quest, Trading(INT.14) to grant better prices at market with ability checks of course and so on...
I finish saying to DEVS that if there there is zero% to improve character customization D&D STYLE then make it as already done for changes about POWER TREES, first were all free but feels not to build and reach your contemplating and wishes Character but now LIMITING US to levels and points they gave us the feeling and sensations or illusion of building and creating something more personal! "AT THE END, PARADOSSAL, PUTTING MORE LIMITATIONS INCRESED MORE THE SATISFACTION OF THE THINGS YOUR CHARACTER IS ABLE TO DO IF HE IS ONE OF THE FEW ABLE TO DO IT THAN ONE OF THE MOST MILLION SAME CHARACTER"
Hi all and sorry for my english
No need to apologize for your english. I understood you and I agree with your thinking. All the same stuff I like about a D&D game.
There are players that want all the classes to be equal in PvE and PvP. That cannot happen and that should not happen, in my opinion. What you should try to do is to balance things out for Team PvP and Team PvE, which is what matters in the end because the fun of d&d is to play in a party.
I think that it would be much easier to balance PvP and PvE keeping in mind the roles of each class and how they play in teams, rather than trying to nerf and buff classes to make them equal solo in PvP and PvE.
I definitely agree. I absolutely think that no one class should be entirely soloable. The entire basis of D&D is parties. You can't run modules by yourself. The builds need to compliment each other, but each role should have a use, while there should be no "trinity" in this, it should need each of the classes present, or at least some subset thereof.
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arontimesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
There needs to be a rule where you can't put down other people's gaming preferences, as it usually leads to massive flame wars. I, for one, enjoyed 3.0, 3.5, and 4e, and I find 4e combat to be the most intellectually stimulating because it actually requires careful positioning and tactics as opposed to the rocket tag of 3.0 and 3.5, where, if the players know what they're doing, victory is decided in a single round by whoever wins the initiative roll.
That said, I do find that 4e went too far in the pursuit of game balance, resulting in a well-balanced tactical wargame with roleplaying but felt very different from previous editions. Now, from what I've seen of D&D Next, a.k.a. 5e, it combines the best of 2e fluff, 3e crunch, and 4e balance. It is not unlike recent trends in Magic: The Gathering (another Wizards of the Coast game) where the developers have gone back to its fluff-based roots as opposed to the strict Color Wheel which clearly delineated what each color could and couldn't do.
P.S.
Fluff = Roleplaying and Storytelling
Crunch = Game Mechanics.
jihancritiasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Any. I'd like to see any REAL D&D aspects broadened in the game. They took the most worthless ruleset and used that. I want real dragon fights, not add fights where a dragon happens to be present. I want to see a giant pile of treasure, that the dragon is protecting, not adds that should have been eaten as soon as they stepped in. I want variation on weapons, classes, monsters, spells. Not this junk. I want a list of feats, like DDO has, that pertain to the real game, not this thing. They could have learned a thing or two from DDO, and the old school D&D players. Quick buck and all...
I would like to actually build a character that I wanted to play, not some devs version of what they think i should play. The best thing about D&D was always the choice, this game seems to have taken that away from you completely. They even took away the different type of weapons saying GF only use swords GWF only use two handed swords, all rogues use 2 daggers..... What if i wanted to make a GWF with a polearm for extra reach? or an Executioner axe for the higher crits and better damage. how about spiked shields and some real hardcore dwarven tanks. It seems all fluff, and in a bad way, its all you will do this like this because i said so fluff.... the kind of DM you would never go back to because if you didn't do exactly what they wanted flaming cows would drop from the heavens.
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trebarrunaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
DDO isnt fun for me and NWN/NWN2 ive played for 7 years.What i am looking for along with a large number of other players is NWN2/DDO remade and improved. With awesome graphics and a flawless walkmesh and of course some kind of D&D core rules to run it all. Most of us agree it should not be the dumbed down quadruple garbage 4e though. As for me i thought that this game would be just that. And at least so far has been disappointing.
Yeah... exactly my feelings.
I was so friking excited with this game! Since it was Beta I kept feeding myself excuses to why I wasn't having the fun I was hopping to have. Time passed, leveled 2 to 60 (DC and CW), started trying other classes, tossed real money to buy Zen... but for the last 2 weeks I find myself logging once a day for a few seconds on each character (professions and the pray-thingie)...
Its cool that they are introducing changes, ofc they will not please everyone... but, for now, sadly I have to admit that this is not the DND/FR/NWN kind of game I was soooooooooooo dreaming for. I will still keep an eye for possible future changes and all...
What I really miss in this game is that unique DnD perk: character individuality. Multiclassing... prestige classes... toons of spells to pick from (darn... how I regret the days when I complained about having too many of these!)... etc etc.
Best of luck peeps, and no you can't have my stuff, i'm not quitting just explaining why I'm not playing. And yes I know that most don't care if X or Y person stops playing
To all those who went back to NWN2... a week ago, some devs finished a mod called Baldur's Gate Reloaded, the project started in 2006, and it's been in development for 7 years... I saw some videos in youtube and it looks very good, it was created by pro devs fans of NWN and BG. It's like 100+ of playing... :P
Here is the link of the launch trailer, which also has a link to dl from nexus.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
What aspects broadened? More of everything. They have a ton of material to draw from in terms of classes, paragon paths, epic destinies, powers, world lore and magic items. Seeing just how much of a challenge Cryptic is having nailing down 5 classes each with just one Paragon Path to choose really makes me skeptical if they are up for expanding NW as much as is possible. Also with each new class, power, paragon path, etc will come rebalancing for PVP, which is why I seriously recommend Cryptic balance that separately from PVE in order to make everyone's life easier.
More importantly than balance though Cryptic needs to make sure their mechanics and systems work correctly in the first place, which is a problem, we are a few days from launch, and after the most recent patch many classes, and my own class CW's, have alot of broken features that were worsened by the patch. Making sure everything works right should be the first priority, and Cryptic seems like with Neverwinter they still need to hammer out what roles and functions they envision in dungeons for some classes.
This really feels like a very raw and unfinished game in many ways, don't get me wrong, the combat is fun and the idea is appealing, but for a game as long in development as Neverwinter has been, and the fact that Cryptic has made several other MMO's, this really seems like poor quality from them. I am hoping against hope they can get it turned around, but unless they are waiting to implement another major patch come release, the game isn't ready imo.
Comments
Thats a solid culmination. I would add more repercussion on dying. It just, i mean you dont lose anything. Traps and puzzles in epic dungeons that STOP progression unless dealt with. And reward quality loot when completed. Just a little more passive growth i think is also a must. At least 1 extra passive slot.
What about people who don't want to cheat? The Secret World had quests that would make even single player puzzle games envious.
That would be silly. The one thing I hated about DDO was that no matter how strong or smart your character was, you couldn't use tools, magic (apart from Knock) or brute strength to get past locked doors. Sure, those methods would probably be noisy and alert all sorts of attention.
Nah, there of course can be exceptions, dungeoneering, in dungeons. Nature skill in outside areas to get things done. But to move through the whole entire game without these kinds of issues a rogue should be needed as that is what they have always done best. Nope. Not silly to me.
Good instead.:)
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
If I start off as some fighter class why do I have to have the same crappy cheap looking armor that all the other fighter guys have? Did all of us new adventurers go shopping at "Ye Olde Cheap Identical Armor Emporium"? What if Just before I left home my father gave me his armor and it was charcoal gray with a hint of red on it somewhere? And as a kid I remember seeing that armor growing up and I was so proud when it was passed down to me. And from that day forward I chose to keep those colors for any armor that I wore/found in the future.
If I start off as a rogue maybe I want to wear pure black leather everything. And I want to wear a belt with pouches on it and a pure black cloak.
Maybe as a ranger I want to wear all natural colored leather and add a splash of color with my bright green cloak
This was one of the greatest things about Neverwinter Nights. You could fully customize all the parts and colors of your clothing or armor. So when you would walk around town with your unique special look, everyone would know exactly who you were and you could also instantly spot the other people as well. Oh look there's Cleric Clara with her pure pink full plate. Hey there's Henry "The Hornet" Smithson wearing his traditional black and yellow armor. Haha.
So my point in short is that with the ability to truly alter the appearance of our outfits (without having to pay for it with real money from a cash shop) it adds a whole other level of pride of our characters and a want to really join in the community to flaunt yourself or RP or what not. And as a long time D&D player this to me was always one of the most important things in the creation of any one of my characters.
You make a some fair points but most of that i just flat out disagree with. It sounds like we were playing different games. Cross classing was awesome and it increased options for every single player playing the game. In my experience 3ed and 3 1/2 was enjoyable for MOST, not some, closer to ALL in fact. Not sure what angle your taking, maybe from the standpoint of the company making money? Because as a D&D experience goes that will always be highlighted by RP and options. 2nd to 3 1/2 video games had much more RP and options then 4e will ever be capable of imho. Not to mention every single RL friend i game with cant stand 4e and loves 2nd ed to 3.5 as i do. Its so crystal clear, to me at least, that 4e is dumbed down and designed for onlineMMO play. Nothing dumbed down will ever achieve a better D&D experience. This thread is about getting D&D into this actionMMO. As far as getting that done even in 4e AC is hit or miss, thats as fundamental as anything D&D in world yes?. If it must be 4e then lets put the 4e rules into play.:)
Im starting to feel like Sominator replies with the same quote every time lol. Like he just copies and pasts his response, I would love to see more elaborated responses from PW. Like "Hey this is a great idea...blah blah blah...I've talked to the devs about etc etc and blah blah blah is in the works." Ya know have a conversation with people not a 1 sentenced response deserving of a "," not a "!".
Third Edition is an unbalanced monster which was only made balanced by making everything into an unbalanced monster.
In development terms it's the accumlation of something called "Power Creep."
As you watch that video understand that while the guys are talking about this mainly from a Video Game standpoint power creep does exist in all games which are expanded and adapted over time. So it goes into the whole "Bigger Guns and Faster Levels" statement they say partway into the video.
That's what third edition did to multi-classing. It gave everybody bigger guns faster. It was so over the top good to multi-class that to not multi-class was detrimental and worse yet it removed basically every negative for multi-classing so there was really little detrimental side effects to multi-classing.
Now I loved third edition as a player. You could break the game so easily that it was extremely fun to play. Afterall people like to feel powerful.
The problem is that I also spent my fair share of time making content for NWN and designing around multi-class powerful builds is virtually impossible. Content too hard would make it impossible to play a normal character but if it wasn't at that bar players would burn through the cntent effortlessly. I was one of the power-build players so I knew just how far I could push content. My collegues actually got ticked off because they would design group content which myself and my uncle could solo.
As a player that's really satisfying...
As a developer it's a <censor> nightmare.
So you get stuck between a rock and a hard place: design around the broken overpowered builds and exile the more casual builds or you simply allow power players to upset the game balance. It's not an easy decision.
Well, as somebody who is interested in the long term benefit of the game...
Multi-classing does nothing but make overpowered builds in any D&D Edition. It adds options, yes, but those options always lead to a more powerful character with few drawbacks.
This is something which players like. Bigger guns and faster levels, woohoo. But it's not balanced so by adding multi-classing the entire game gets tossed into a whole different league due to the power creep.
That's why DDO revolves around such min-max settings. I had a rogue with 14 intelligence and by the time I reached level 8 I was completely unable to advance because the game was designed for maxed character settings. If it wasn't balanced around players maxing out their character the game would be truly effortless and borderline exploitable. So Turbine made the hard choice to balance the game around the max builds.
Third Edition is fun. It's my second favorite edition in fact. Fourth I actually don't have a lot of love for and I much prefer Second Edition. However I like Third Edition purely because the game is so horribly designed that power-builds are truly effortless to make. It makes me feel powerful...that's great.
But it's not a good system. I don't feel it works well in an MMO setting at all because it can't possibly be balanced to cater to both casual and hard-core players.
And at the heart of the balancing issue with Third Edition is the multi-classing feature. Multi-classing as players want is in third because of the out of balance power it gives. That's power which should have never seen the light of day in any MMO since their survival and appeal, despite everybody's desire for power, relies on balanced gameplay.
Third Edition Multi-classing is gone. Forever. Just like there are so many Magic the Gathering Cards which are gone forever to never be reprinted for their god awful over-powered nonsense.
Fourth Edition failed to kill multi-classing but it moderated it to the a more Second Edition power scale...
But those mechanics just don't play well in NW to begin with.
I'd like to add that I've played NWN in multiplayer servers for almost a decade, that game was based in d&d 3rd edition; even bioware stated that the game was never going to be balanced for PvP and I can tell that it was not balanced for PvE either; In those multiplayer servers the DM's managed to balance the 3e NWN adapted mechanics, for PvP and in some servers for PvE. Personally, I was a fan of PvP and played for a long time in Action Full PvP servers. I can tell that it was the best PvP I have ever played in any game, specially team based PvP. So, if cryptic takes 4e as a base to create NW, which as a much better balanced multiclassing, they should try to figure out the way to introduce multiclassing in a way that it's balanced for PvE and PvP; it may not be easy but I can tell that it would be a blast to have it in NW.
"The harder the game, the better."
I have to agree and disagree, I will use this analogy to try and express my general and specific ideas of how to use more of D&D to make this a better game. (First the theory then the ideas)
Yes George RR Martin does an astounding job at bringing unpredictable characters to life but I can for sure identify alignments in them(especially the lawful/chaotic bit), and I can also identify alignment changes, something that is very much D&D. As a pen and paper player (from your knowledge I assume you are one too) I give a lot of importance to Campaign Settings, and in this matter I truly believe that Worlds are key to how alignment is used no matter what edition we are playing.
What I mean is, in the World of Game of Thrones the definition of good and evil is a lot more ambiguous than it is in Forgotten Realms, but that characteristic is part of the setting itself, by option, by default, by definition and in the case of Forgotten Realms there are millions of words of content/plot that depend on this very important characteristic. This notion of Campaign Setting is paramount to how a PnP game flows but is at least as important to how a CRPG plays.
Why? Because the more you identify with something the more engaging it becomes. As an example, one of the most important factors for a fun ROLE-PLAY is to pick a side, even if temporarily, and often that fun comes from being/acting something you cant IRL, this is called escapism, its fun and its healthy. And despite FR being a very mature setting, one where there are plenty of factions to be apart of/fight against in this game you dont pick sides. In PvE everybody that is playing a character is on the same side ALWAYS, and in PvP you are part of a temporary side. I know this is an MMO and we need to tend to a very specific crowd, but there are for sure ways of improving this.
I enjoy this game, I really do, but if I had to give a reason to why I do I would have to say that this is a very good execution of an already existing formula for MMOs. And yes there are some innovations, but they are within the scope of the magic MMO formula.
The number one rule of D&D is adapt the rules, a good DM will know how to execute the "law" depending on the situation. On this note I think PW did an excellent job in adapating the MMO formula so that even hardcore D&D fans can enjoy the very often boring "mechanical", "action" , "power gaming" part of it all, what is really missing is the opposite, making the RP part of it integrate so well that even power gamers can enjoy the content. If achieved this would be the game of the decade.
I shall be more specific now:
- Use factions from the FR setting for players to be a part of and add this to giving function to guilds beyond them being just grinding pals. For example, region control, yes there are other MMOs that have already played well and enough with this idea, but none had the immense background that FR has. You have already used this in excellent fashion to make all the lvling/grinding/repetitive bit of the game a lot more tolerable, take the next step.
- The foundry is an excellent initiative, and there are already some very good creations out there, but it is way too limited. I understand, again it is an MMO, but a lot of the problems in giving freedom to creators can be solved by making them jump hoops before you allow them to use certain freedoms, and having resources to approve quality content is not expensive if that content brings you players. As you know well there are plenty of examples in all of the NWN legacy of community found success.
- You have Dungeons, you have Dragons, but you dont have adventures. Missions are not adventures, I would bet all my Astral Diamonds that all your resources are working on more Dungeons, more high-end content, more food for the power gaming hungry, and you should! But again, take the next step, fill the gap, create real adventure content, with adventure elements (theres nothing like it in the game so far, not even the foundry stuff due to the limitations).
And now I shall shut up.
Best,
DN
Yep. And if some guy in his basement building and scripting an NWN PW server (points to himself) can bring some sense of balance by nerfing and tweaking a bit here and there (mostly feats and spells), then a professional team should be able to do the same. And for those talking about how 3rd and 3.5 addition multiclassing can create overpowered character builds that can be used to exploit...isn't that already happening in this game?
This gives more perspective on the topic for sure. And i agree with this especially the "As a player that's really satisfying" well sir, im a player. I want really satisfying...Every player here wants really satisfying. 3.0 is alot of fun and 4e isnt alot of fun. The MTG reference was interesting as we play tabletop with most of the cards that are "gone forever" including some power 9. Any other form of magic for me is "soft" and impure. Just like 4e. Youll get no argument from me about the 3 31/2 mechanics not playing well in NW though. As the game is designed to be limited and pigeontoe the option capabilities and any real D&D implementations. Thats awesome for the devs.....but surely your not suggesting we as players look at this game through developers eyes...are you?
As far as PvP i wouldn't know were to start. Short of things like a DM event, underdark drow raids in NWN/NWN2 i have never cared much for PvP. Especially the PvP format in NW. Completely defer to you Vold on anything PvP related. Played those 2 games for 7 years. We had a large clan of dwarves and seldom had a party less then 6. It was rare to ever be attacked at all by other players.
could not agree more after all that one of the key roles of a rogue!! also make the traps invisible to everyone else and have rogues spot them... also bonus xp for disarming all the traps is a good idea.
Thats a good wish list minus the word "activated" replace that with "passive" and we want the same thing.
Yah... all true. That could be done. If any form of D&D(4e) is gonna be implemented they have to install at least a varied game design. Which can be done. However, I dont think changes like this will fly with the wow gen. This is WOTC shot at a larger audience. We, the smaller denomination will not get this change that would allow for a more realistic D&D environment. But im convinced thats were it starts, either through modules or recoding. The base game has to change somewhat to live up to even the dumbed down 4e standard.
Many folks want a D&D RPG. The funny thing is WOTC wants an actionMMO. As long as that is there goal we are pissing into the wind.
Well as I said not everything players like is good for games. Players want to be powerful...until they have it. Then they either get bored or destroy game balance for other players. Either situation can and will kill MMO's.
DDO does all out stupidly overpowered nonsense. Neverwinter Nights was self-regulated by small communities. NW is choosing to keep the game balanced to begin with. Three different approaches. Find the one that fits you best because none of them can be married into an all in one experience.
Bigger guns and faster levels are nice but it doesn't build for long term gameplay. I guarantee the biggest reason DDO loses new players is because instead of trying to make third edition a less obnoxiously overpowered beast they required players to understand how to maximize the potential in characters.
That's good in one sense but in the other it's a niche product designed for a niche group which will only ever cater to a niche portion of that group who lives and breaths min-maxing. Even my uncle who designed the most overpowered non-sense on NWN will not touch DDO because it strives to make everybody the same by making the game black and white "maxed or not maxed."
"Activated Items" would be items such as wands and items of power.
I would love some passive items like Boots of Speed but i would settle for anklets of haste, rings of invisibility, Necklace of Fireballs.
See, thats a bummer man, im sure your right but yah. All three married into an all in one experience would be prime. Rings of invisibility, boots of speed, necklace of fireballs...:o even better would be two extra passive skill slots on the gadget bar, or more. I personally would love to see some type of use magic device skill implemented, allowing the use of cross class items. That would make a big difference. Whatever happens, whatever "niche" this game is it needs more D&D. I think we can both agree on that. Good thread. Theres some good ideas floating around these pages.
To explain a bit better, have some kind of content that would make it actually usable to have different kinds of classes. Like rogues finding secret doors and disarming traps for a GOOD reason. Or wizards that could unearth some special info from old runes and texts, warriors breaking down doors or such, Clerics turning undead or communing with their dieties for something. Things like that. What we have now, is a group composition made for battles instead of exploring and dungeon crawling (which IMO is a big part of DnD)
On a sidenote, I'd like for more variation on classes. I mean, atm, we have a Control Wizard, a Devoted Cleric and a Trickster Rogue. Where's the fireball hurling wizard? Or the sneaking thief? Then again, I've heard (by reading the forums) that more classes will be added later
Multi-classing I can live without. It would be fun for more variation, but overall not a needed feature IMO.
I choose the race first: it gives me significatives and visibles abilities,i remember the immunity of charme and sleep of elves...so example a CW meet a race with immunity to that spell...ok then the CW must change the attack/spell tactic against this race.I like that
I choose the class for example cleric: i remember that depending of the deity i was able or not to use/grant extra/special weapons/spell and I like that
I choose my skills based of my intelligent score, more clever i am more things i can do in the game and I like that
I choose the weapon profiencies and I was able to use very good a weapon or a lot just in a normal way and I like that
I choose carefully where to put my ability score because later I would like to become a Swordmaster or an Assasin and gain new special abilities and I like that...
so what I mean? the point is that I would like to see clearly my choises!
Even if the hybrid form is to hard to develop it without unbalance the game there are some methods to arrange the situation...insert some racial immunities and penalties, give 1 extra power or advantage/bonus based on the the divinity you prey and limit it to another one, insert some skills like Diplomacy(min.15 WIS)to grant esclusive quest, Trading(INT.14) to grant better prices at market with ability checks of course and so on...
I finish saying to DEVS that if there there is zero% to improve character customization D&D STYLE then make it as already done for changes about POWER TREES, first were all free but feels not to build and reach your contemplating and wishes Character but now LIMITING US to levels and points they gave us the feeling and sensations or illusion of building and creating something more personal! "AT THE END, PARADOSSAL, PUTTING MORE LIMITATIONS INCRESED MORE THE SATISFACTION OF THE THINGS YOUR CHARACTER IS ABLE TO DO IF HE IS ONE OF THE FEW ABLE TO DO IT THAN ONE OF THE MOST MILLION SAME CHARACTER"
Hi all and sorry for my english
I think that instead of balancing the PvE and PvP according to ideas from players taken from non-d&d games, the balancing should be done mainly thinking on the class roles, this is one of the things I miss.
Defender : Defenders focus on blocking attacking enemies and focusing their attacks on themselves. Defender classes are typically focused on melee combat, however some classes such as Swordmages also have ranged combat capabilities. (wikipedia)
Leader: Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies. Some Leader classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not. (wikipedia)
Striker: Strikers are focused on mobility, dealing heavy damage to single targets and avoiding attacks. Some Striker classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not. (wikipedia)
Controller: Controllers focus on affecting multiple targets at once, either damaging or debuffing them, or altering the battlefield's terrain. Some classes, such as Wizards and Invokers, are focused towards ranged combat, while Druids can specialize in ranged or melee combat. (wikipedia)
Since NW classes are not really classes but Class-Build-Options, they added modified roles depending on the build option of each class:
Control Wizard - Controller (Primary)
Guardian Fighter - Defender (Primary)
Great Weapon Fighter - Striker & Defender (Both Secondary)
Devoted Cleric - Leader (Primary) & Controller (Secondary)
Trickster Rogue - Striker (Primary)
There are players that want all the classes to be equal in PvE and PvP. That cannot happen and that should not happen, in my opinion. What you should try to do is to balance things out for Team PvP and Team PvE, which is what matters in the end because the fun of d&d is to play in a party.
I think that it would be much easier to balance PvP and PvE keeping in mind the roles of each class and how they play in teams, rather than trying to nerf and buff classes to make them equal solo in PvP and PvE.
"The harder the game, the better."
No need to apologize for your english. I understood you and I agree with your thinking. All the same stuff I like about a D&D game.
I definitely agree. I absolutely think that no one class should be entirely soloable. The entire basis of D&D is parties. You can't run modules by yourself. The builds need to compliment each other, but each role should have a use, while there should be no "trinity" in this, it should need each of the classes present, or at least some subset thereof.
That said, I do find that 4e went too far in the pursuit of game balance, resulting in a well-balanced tactical wargame with roleplaying but felt very different from previous editions. Now, from what I've seen of D&D Next, a.k.a. 5e, it combines the best of 2e fluff, 3e crunch, and 4e balance. It is not unlike recent trends in Magic: The Gathering (another Wizards of the Coast game) where the developers have gone back to its fluff-based roots as opposed to the strict Color Wheel which clearly delineated what each color could and couldn't do.
P.S.
Fluff = Roleplaying and Storytelling
Crunch = Game Mechanics.
Taking a break from Neverwinter indefinitely...
Yeah... exactly my feelings.
I was so friking excited with this game! Since it was Beta I kept feeding myself excuses to why I wasn't having the fun I was hopping to have. Time passed, leveled 2 to 60 (DC and CW), started trying other classes, tossed real money to buy Zen... but for the last 2 weeks I find myself logging once a day for a few seconds on each character (professions and the pray-thingie)...
Its cool that they are introducing changes, ofc they will not please everyone... but, for now, sadly I have to admit that this is not the DND/FR/NWN kind of game I was soooooooooooo dreaming for. I will still keep an eye for possible future changes and all...
What I really miss in this game is that unique DnD perk: character individuality. Multiclassing... prestige classes... toons of spells to pick from (darn... how I regret the days when I complained about having too many of these!)... etc etc.
Best of luck peeps, and no you can't have my stuff, i'm not quitting just explaining why I'm not playing. And yes I know that most don't care if X or Y person stops playing
Cheers.
Here is the link of the launch trailer, which also has a link to dl from nexus.
"The harder the game, the better."
More importantly than balance though Cryptic needs to make sure their mechanics and systems work correctly in the first place, which is a problem, we are a few days from launch, and after the most recent patch many classes, and my own class CW's, have alot of broken features that were worsened by the patch. Making sure everything works right should be the first priority, and Cryptic seems like with Neverwinter they still need to hammer out what roles and functions they envision in dungeons for some classes.
This really feels like a very raw and unfinished game in many ways, don't get me wrong, the combat is fun and the idea is appealing, but for a game as long in development as Neverwinter has been, and the fact that Cryptic has made several other MMO's, this really seems like poor quality from them. I am hoping against hope they can get it turned around, but unless they are waiting to implement another major patch come release, the game isn't ready imo.