Ah, i see now the use of elemental empowerment. did not know it was a mitigation debuff, thought it was defense (and i always run with DC using Gplague), not-so-bad-than, even in PvP target will have 1-2 stacks after ROE\EF so 20% more damage on IR is the same actually, but also can be applied to IK or CS, and much more useful in PvE
I know about the internal cooldown for EoTS but having Gvorp and SW set(had no luck with getting HV and dont want to buy it) im sitting at 131% crit severity, and it is just too sexy to discard any additional crit chance i can get.
stats currently 24\24 int\cha and like 4k pow\3k crit\2.2 armpen\3.1 recovery and 33% damage resist(dont remember defence number)
I have read that tempest magic on a thiefling does not stack and replaces thiefling buff instead. Its not very bad even if it works like that, i think i will get it instead of malovelent surge(i got it when FPT was bugged and evocation stacked)
I think you are right about chilling presence and bitter cold being better at PvE, i'll give it a try, because i have CP, but i think i will stick to nightmare wizardry and snap freeze instead of bitter cold for the sake of pvp
Okay, so I'm on Mimic, playing with my level 35 Moon Elf Control Wizard... and going crazy using my respec tokens to try about everything I can to get a feel for it. It includes this build (well, up to level 35! )
While slotting things, a few things occured to me. Please forgive the newbish questions/impressions that follow (since I'm still blind to a lot of endgame considerations).
Destructive Wizardry
Your At-Wills are Magic Missile and Chill Cloud. I get how most of what you do tries to synergize with cold-based powers to the point where Chill Cloud is (I hear) nearly as good as magic missile DPS-wise, but I don't get why you slot Magic Missile at all instead of Storm Pillar (which Destructive Wizardry directly affects).
Snap Cold would only work out as a first strike measure, and likely not often, but that seems better than not using Storm Pillar/Destructive Wizardry at all.
The Magic Missile/Arcane Stack relation?
I don't understand it. I see Chill stacks easily enough when I use Ray of Frost - there's a visual feedback, it freezes bad guys, and I understand it. But for arcane stacks, I've never noticed anything to this point, which makes any recommendations made over that consideration go largely beyond my understanding.
I figure, though, that it might be the reason why you keep Magic Missile. Maybe.
Initial thoughts on Storm Pillar
That little chain lightning effect looks fairly cool and the charge times tells me "perfect time to use me is at the start of a fight", whereas I could use something like [tab]Entangling Force and then follow up with other AoE powers (Conduit of Ice, Sudden Storm) before needing to finish with a shield burst.
I can't ever picture myself spamming the power to gain AP out of combat. It's really slow and boring. >_>
Tabbed Conduit of Ice
I have a hard time with Conduit of Ice. I find it tricky to place (all too often I end up setting it on a soon-to-die enemy), its damage-over-time is kind of unsatisfyingly "overtime", and I don't notice all that much improvement on it when tabbed (in contrast to, say, the more viscerally effective entangling force).
I see how having it around can help, since you value the capstone Thaumaturge feat... but why choose it when you could tab something else, like, say... Icy Terrain? (immobilize opponents, drop CoI on them, and try to add in a Storm Pillar?)
Brief thoughts on Sudden Storm
When I got it, I was pleasantly surprised at its damage output (I hear it scales badly, though I don't understand why). Its cylinder shapes makes it occasionally tricky to use, but there certainly was something very satisfying about being able to kill a flock of imps or a gaggle of warlocks around Helm's Hold in a single spell!
It has a stupidly short range, though!
I'm awkward with Chill Cloud too
In a lot of ways, Chill Cloud has felt to me like a much less convenient icy version of Magic Missile. It doesn't fire off as fast, and roots you where you are if you want to aim for the payoff of AoE damage, and it really doesn't build up chill stacks all that well that I can see (in contrast to Ray of Frost, which shines to me a lot more in that evocative "you will stop moving!" way)
I gave it a sincere try in Neverdeath graveyard, and trying to use it right usually resulted on masses of zombies tearing at my clothes while I tried to squeeze out as many full Chill Cloud combos as I could after expending my Encounter powers.
So, when go and try to use most of the above...
Start off with Tabbed CoI, which makes them rush me. I welcome them with Icy Terrain, start casting Chill Cloud, end up feeling I'm being battered and generally feel the impulse of bursting my shield to keep the bad guys away. End result, they get pushed out of icy terrain, I don't have much of anything ready for use, I curse at not having [tab]Entangling Force handy, and feel that this making me drink more potions than I did before.
I did beat Rohini a lot more easily than I expected, though. I'm not quite sure why, but that seemed to work out well since imp flocks, and legion devils/erinyes got harder in general. ~_~;
The main purpose of tabbed CoI is to generate chill stacks and increase AoE radius. In combination with Icy Terrain and Chilling cloud it makes mobs to be near permafrosted, while you do heavy damage with this powers. This build is more endgame, so you will have problems, while leveling.
I am using a Renegade build that takes advantage of the Destructive Wizardry feat.
I generally find a group of 2 or more mobs and hit them with a Storm Pillar before beginning a rotation of my other powers. This gives each of the powers that I fire off an additional 10% damage... or... however the calculation works ;-)
Spamming Storm Pillar before a boss fight or other fight is critical in certain situations in order to ensure that I have an Arcane Singularity ready to go. Suffice to say, it is the ONLY way to generate AP outside of combat for a CW. In combat I only use it to proc Destructive Wizardry as I state above.
I also had trouble using CoI effectively on tab because without EF on tab, mobs would not stay in the CoI long enough. The only time I could use it effectively is directly after casting a Singularity. Other players generally are knocking stuff or kiting stuff around and it's not reliable for me to hit multiple mobs with CoI. I prefer the AP gain from EF on mastery. Also, with EF on mastery I can use CoI on a mob and then EF on it to draw other mobs in to the CoI.
The main purpose of tabbed CoI is to generate chill stacks and increase AoE radius. In combination with Icy Terrain and Chilling cloud it makes mobs to be near permafrosted, while you do heavy damage with this powers. This build is more endgame, so you will have problems, while leveling.
I actually enjoyed this build better while soloing than in end-game because in end-game there is a lot of kiting and moving that prohibits my ability to use CoI, Chilling Cloud, and Icy Terrain effectively.
As a solo, it was very easy to use them effectively.
I don't understand it. I see Chill stacks easily enough when I use Ray of Frost - there's a visual feedback, it freezes bad guys, and I understand it. But for arcane stacks, I've never noticed anything to this point, which makes any recommendations made over that consideration go largely beyond my understanding.
I figure, though, that it might be the reason why you keep Magic Missile. Maybe.
I found the weapon damage over time from Elemental Empowerment to be very useful for proccing Storm Spell. However, the mitigation reduction from Arcane Missiles was difficult for me to use because it only lasts 3 seconds. In that time I -might- be able to get off a few powers, but generally I have to move too much to use it effectively. Also, there is not enough time to say, fire off a cold encounter, then an arcane encounter, then take advantage of both procs for some power usage... it just doesn't last long enough.
I actually enjoyed this build better while soloing than in end-game because in end-game there is a lot of kiting and moving that prohibits my ability to use CoI, Chilling Cloud, and Icy Terrain effectively.
As a solo, it was very easy to use them effectively.
Common scenario 1: mobs running towards you. Tabbed CoI in center of group and kite mobs, they will be frozen by 6 tick.
Common scenario 2: mobs running towards you. Tabbed CoI in center of group, wait till mobs come to you, drop Icy Terrain and shift. Mobs will be frozen 2 times in a row.
Common scenario 3: you are surrounded by mobs. Shift, than tabbed CoI, shift again, drop Icy Terrain. Mobs will be frozen 2 times in a row.
Common scenario 4: you are surrounded by large amount of mobs and have daily (I don't waste my daily usually and I have my daily in every bad situation). Drop OF (not AS), than shield pulse. Go to scenario 2. Feel free to use AS, when mobs are slowed by terrain.
Okay, so I'm on Mimic, playing with my level 35 Moon Elf Control Wizard... and going crazy using my respec tokens to try about everything I can to get a feel for it. It includes this build (well, up to level 35! )
While slotting things, a few things occured to me. Please forgive the newbish questions/impressions that follow (since I'm still blind to a lot of endgame considerations).
Destructive Wizardry
Your At-Wills are Magic Missile and Chill Cloud. I get how most of what you do tries to synergize with cold-based powers to the point where Chill Cloud is (I hear) nearly as good as magic missile DPS-wise, but I don't get why you slot Magic Missile at all instead of Storm Pillar (which Destructive Wizardry directly affects).
Snap Cold would only work out as a first strike measure, and likely not often, but that seems better than not using Storm Pillar/Destructive Wizardry at all.
The Magic Missile/Arcane Stack relation?
I don't understand it. I see Chill stacks easily enough when I use Ray of Frost - there's a visual feedback, it freezes bad guys, and I understand it. But for arcane stacks, I've never noticed anything to this point, which makes any recommendations made over that consideration go largely beyond my understanding.
I figure, though, that it might be the reason why you keep Magic Missile. Maybe.
Initial thoughts on Storm Pillar
That little chain lightning effect looks fairly cool and the charge times tells me "perfect time to use me is at the start of a fight", whereas I could use something like [tab]Entangling Force and then follow up with other AoE powers (Conduit of Ice, Sudden Storm) before needing to finish with a shield burst.
I can't ever picture myself spamming the power to gain AP out of combat. It's really slow and boring. >_>
Tabbed Conduit of Ice
I have a hard time with Conduit of Ice. I find it tricky to place (all too often I end up setting it on a soon-to-die enemy), its damage-over-time is kind of unsatisfyingly "overtime", and I don't notice all that much improvement on it when tabbed (in contrast to, say, the more viscerally effective entangling force).
I see how having it around can help, since you value the capstone Thaumaturge feat... but why choose it when you could tab something else, like, say... Icy Terrain? (immobilize opponents, drop CoI on them, and try to add in a Storm Pillar?)
Brief thoughts on Sudden Storm
When I got it, I was pleasantly surprised at its damage output (I hear it scales badly, though I don't understand why). Its cylinder shapes makes it occasionally tricky to use, but there certainly was something very satisfying about being able to kill a flock of imps or a gaggle of warlocks around Helm's Hold in a single spell!
It has a stupidly short range, though!
I'm awkward with Chill Cloud too
In a lot of ways, Chill Cloud has felt to me like a much less convenient icy version of Magic Missile. It doesn't fire off as fast, and roots you where you are if you want to aim for the payoff of AoE damage, and it really doesn't build up chill stacks all that well that I can see (in contrast to Ray of Frost, which shines to me a lot more in that evocative "you will stop moving!" way)
I gave it a sincere try in Neverdeath graveyard, and trying to use it right usually resulted on masses of zombies tearing at my clothes while I tried to squeeze out as many full Chill Cloud combos as I could after expending my Encounter powers.
So, when go and try to use most of the above...
Start off with Tabbed CoI, which makes them rush me. I welcome them with Icy Terrain, start casting Chill Cloud, end up feeling I'm being battered and generally feel the impulse of bursting my shield to keep the bad guys away. End result, they get pushed out of icy terrain, I don't have much of anything ready for use, I curse at not having [tab]Entangling Force handy, and feel that this making me drink more potions than I did before.
I did beat Rohini a lot more easily than I expected, though. I'm not quite sure why, but that seemed to work out well since imp flocks, and legion devils/erinyes got harder in general. ~_~;
I mentioned this quite a few times in this thread before, but I do not recommend you leveling a CW with this. The spec needs pretty much all the points for it to come together. Not that it is horrible for leveling, or that it will make your life much harder, but much of what I discuss, even the Powers I suggest to slot are intended to be used in a group setting.
Leveling up you really need to use things like Chill Strike on Tab, Magic Missile as your primary, since in many situation it is better to quickly take out one mob at a time. Even Singularity is not really used on quests.
You are on the right track with experimenting with things. Continue with that mentality and try everything for yourself, and you will be leagues ahead of players @60 who followed a guide from level1.
Is there anywhere in this thread where you include which powers you allocated points into? Or do you only mention the most important ones while the rest are just fillers for the powers that you mention?
Is there anywhere in this thread where you include which powers you allocated points into? Or do you only mention the most important ones while the rest are just fillers for the powers that you mention?
Yes, this question has been asked a few times and I answered it. I keep stressing, especially for new CWs, to experiment with all the Powers.
That said the following are MUST have Powers for this spec:
Chilling Cloud
Conduit of Ice
Icy Terrain
Steal Time
Shield Pulse
Singularity
Storm Spell
Chilling Presence
Ice Knife
Repel
I recommend the following maxed:
Ray of Frost
Ice Storm
Oppressive Force
Chill Strike
Entangling Force
icy Rays
Storm Pillar
Since there's 44 pages I didn't think I could find this question:
How do you enchant your Offense/Defense/Utility slots in all your gear? It seems like removing enchantments is hella expensive so I haven't even put anything in my HV set because it is end game gear. At the same time I feel like a scrub with no enchants in my 4 piece set.
Shouldn't cost that much AD to remove enchants, wayyy too much. On top of this it's pretty **** hard to make AD because the only items that sell for a lot are in the high end T2 dungeons. It's like you're totally stuck unless you spend ZEN, heh.
Still on my character over the Mimic test server, exploring different powers. When I managed to train for the first time Steal time, it occurred to me that I had most of the pieces I'd need to make your Thaumaturge build 'work' (albeit not with the full suite of bonuses).
I practiced getting the hang of [tab]ConduitOfIce/IceTerrain/StealTime/Shield. At first it was a bit awkward because there's a lot more point-blank bursts in there instead of more direct attacks. I kept at it wandering around my last PvE leg of Sky Hold, and started to see how the build could work out. Basically, going from tab, to Q, E, R-shield bursting in a pinch, and then spamming whatever gets off cooldown while tossing out the Chilling Cloud rotations I can sneak inbetween... and stuff would die.
I didn't get a sense of doing better with smaller groups of monsters (whom I could handily get rid of with a Entangling Force/Sudden Storm combo). In fact, this felt like a very up-close combat build that placed me to great risk, and I'd often lose out a whole 1/3 of my hit points in fights involving slightly tougher monsters (Hexers, Deathpledged gnolls). However, it seemed to exceptionally deal with much larger groups of monsters (including Sky Hold's last non-raid boss, which gave my Trickster Rogue so much more grief by comparison) to the point of keeping my Daily as my "Oh shi-" button felt much less relevant.
But then, you did say this was more of a team build, and I can see it. The high risk factor becomes much less significant if not all monsters are focused on only fighting a single Control Wizard. I can understand how people can vouch for this as an endgame dungeon build.
This said, I think I'm drawing out the most satisfaction out of the Oppressor feat tree at this moment. I liked using [Tab]Entangling Force/Sudden Storm to wipe out most normal groups of enemies; while keeping a Chill Strike and Shield Burst as a quick get-rid-of-the-rest backup if any outflanked that. Though when I'm actually in a fight against something hardier(tougher mob like an Hexer, Enforcer and such) I really like locking them down and keeping them at bay with Ray of Frost used inbetween Entangling Force and Chill Strike.
I figure my playstyle can still mature from there - there's no science behind my preferences so much as comfort level while I do PvE stuff by my lonesome. At the moment I'm kind of toying around replacing Chill Strike for another spell - I tried Ray of Enfeeblement, but found it... weak. Steal Time and Ray of Ice are those I plan to toy around with next (though I'm not enthused by Ray of Ice, seeing how its damage is even less than Ray of Enfeeblement).
Since there's 44 pages I didn't think I could find this question:
How do you enchant your Offense/Defense/Utility slots in all your gear? It seems like removing enchantments is hella expensive so I haven't even put anything in my HV set because it is end game gear. At the same time I feel like a scrub with no enchants in my 4 piece set.
Shouldn't cost that much AD to remove enchants, wayyy too much. On top of this it's pretty **** hard to make AD because the only items that sell for a lot are in the high end T2 dungeons. It's like you're totally stuck unless you spend ZEN, heh.
If it is not worth at least 70% of its AH value, then dont ever remove an enchant from a slot. Just put the new one on top and call it trial and error.
I can't tell you what to enchant your gear with. Enchanting is about balancing your Stats. So you need to see what you are lacking and enchant accordingly. Also remember that Runestones are much cheaper than enchants. Shoot for 3k Recovery, 2.2k crit, 1.5k-2k Armor Pen. Dont enchant for Power, just whatever you get with your gear is fine. About 1k Defense. I have 1.5k Life Steal, it's up to you if you want to go that route. You may want to enchant for HP instead in your Defensive slots.
@umaeko
I am glad you are figuring things out on your own. That's how people should use guides/specs. You get ideas from others, and try them out to see how they fit your playstyle. Good luck.
Pretty funny, didn't even realize you could overlap enchants without having to remove them through spending AD. It's almost impossible to find in depth info on this game without asking around, thanks for the post
Before I saw these updates, I was contemplating making a couple of changes to this spec. And after reading all these changes, I think there is even more reason to do so. Not that the changes are breaking the build, but I think we can capitalize on them, making it even better.
Based on pfft2 testing At-Wills, which can be found here I decided to introduce Storm Pillar in my "rotation", namely as an Opener and/or right under a Singularity. I was actually pleased with the damage output of Storm Pillar, especially when it crits.
So here is the first change that I am proposing, and I will test them out myself when I respec in the next day or so:
- Switching the 5 points of Tempest Magic into Destructive Wizardry.
This will allow me to actually continue using Storm Pillar the same way I am doing now, but get a damage boost at the same time. Also as a Tiefling, there is not much of a loss here since both the racial and the feat don't seem to be stacking.
With the decrease in AP gain of Shield, Critical Power looks very attractive atm.
- So my Second change, is to put 5 points into it. Now here is where it gets tricky. Bitter Cold vs. Reaper's Touch. Given my playstyle, stacking Life Steal and mostly being on adds, I know I am within the 20ft range of most targets. So I know I definitely make use of Reaper's Touch. Plus with me starting to use Storm Pillar every so often, it is a nice boost. On the other hand Bitter Cold, is a flat 5% damage boost that's constantly on no matter where I am standing and no matter what Power I am using.
I am not going to update the OP with these changes yet. I am going to test them and hopefully also get some feedback from people here before I do so.
Based on pfft2 testing At-Wills, which can be found here I decided to introduce Storm Pillar in my "rotation", namely as an Opener and/or right under a Singularity. I was actually pleased with the damage output of Storm Pillar, especially when it crits.
So here is the first change that I am proposing, and I will test them out myself when I respec in the next day or so:
- Switching the 5 points of Tempest Magic into Destructive Wizardry.
This will allow me to actually continue using Storm Pillar the same way I am doing now, but get a damage boost at the same time. Also as a Tiefling, there is not much of a loss here since both the racial and the feat don't seem to be stacking.
My thoughts exactly, and pillar now refreshes chill, which is great for chilling presence
Pillar could become the main At-will if it benefited as good as chilling cloud from storm spell, or at least evocation. Right now there are no class features that is good with Pillar, but maybe Chilling presence and revorked EoTs will be.
My thoughts exactly, and pillar now refreshes chill, which is great for chilling presence
Pillar could become the main At-will if it benefited as good as chilling cloud from storm spell, or at least evocation. Right now there are no class features that is good with Pillar, but maybe Chilling presence and revorked EoTs will be.
I would still be using Chilling Presence and Storm Spell. I am not spamming Storm Pillar. But yea so far so good. Ran a couple of CN tonight and AP gain is very good. I will update again tomorrow.
I quite approve of the change to Destructive Wizardry. This'll allow you to keep up nice damage bonuses from a chill cloud rotation, then Storm Pillar, rinse/repeat.
With the decrease in AP gain of Shield, Critical Power looks very attractive atm.
- So my Second change, is to put 5 points into it. Now here is where it gets tricky. Bitter Cold vs. Reaper's Touch. Given my playstyle, stacking Life Steal and mostly being on adds, I know I am within the 20ft range of most targets. So I know I definitely make use of Reaper's Touch. Plus with me starting to use Storm Pillar every so often, it is a nice boost. On the other hand Bitter Cold, is a flat 5% damage boost that's constantly on no matter where I am standing and no matter what Power I am using.
Okay, from my running this on Mimic, I'm quite certain that Reaper's Touch is a worthwhile investment. As long as you stick to using Icy Terrain and Steal Time, you're likely getting the most from it already. Icy Terrain also doesn't crit (from what I've read here) so that's one ability that wouldn't beneficiate from it.
The same goes for Bitter Cold. Most of your powers except your Dailies (Arcane Singularity/Oppressive Force) and your At-Will (Storm Pillar) don't benefit from it - so it's in general very worthwhile.
And the "why" is... I don't think Critical Power supports the philosophy behind your build, which was about assured bonuses instead of gambling to get that extra oomph from going for gambles. The 10 second cooldown on top of needing to critical hit (meaning your build becomes further skewed toward Int/Cha builds rather than being more 'general') is also not a huge endorsement for it, IMHO.
* * *
I'm of the frame of mind that the time of back-to-back dailies is over, and that people simply need to adapt to tossing those out at more pivotal moments. Fortunately, your build is likely indeed mostly nerf-proof here, since you weren't putting all your eggs in the same basket and that you can actually do a lot of stuff well rather than being victim to Singularity overspecialization.
Before I saw these updates, I was contemplating making a couple of changes to this spec. And after reading all these changes, I think there is even more reason to do so. Not that the changes are breaking the build, but I think we can capitalize on them, making it even better.
Wow, lotta stuff in there. Feeling kinda blindsided at the moment, honestly.
Icy Terrain also doesn't crit (from what I've read here) so that's one ability that wouldn't beneficiate from it.
Last time i cheked on mimic it worked well(could crit and get severity bonus), apart from bugged proccing EotS (like alacrity now appears but gives no effect\buff)
Before I saw these updates, I was contemplating making a couple of changes to this spec. And after reading all these changes, I think there is even more reason to do so. Not that the changes are breaking the build, but I think we can capitalize on them, making it even better.
Based on pfft2 testing At-Wills, which can be found here I decided to introduce Storm Pillar in my "rotation", namely as an Opener and/or right under a Singularity. I was actually pleased with the damage output of Storm Pillar, especially when it crits.
So here is the first change that I am proposing, and I will test them out myself when I respec in the next day or so:
- Switching the 5 points of Tempest Magic into Destructive Wizardry.
This will allow me to actually continue using Storm Pillar the same way I am doing now, but get a damage boost at the same time. Also as a Tiefling, there is not much of a loss here since both the racial and the feat don't seem to be stacking.
With the decrease in AP gain of Shield, Critical Power looks very attractive atm.
- So my Second change, is to put 5 points into it. Now here is where it gets tricky. Bitter Cold vs. Reaper's Touch. Given my playstyle, stacking Life Steal and mostly being on adds, I know I am within the 20ft range of most targets. So I know I definitely make use of Reaper's Touch. Plus with me starting to use Storm Pillar every so often, it is a nice boost. On the other hand Bitter Cold, is a flat 5% damage boost that's constantly on no matter where I am standing and no matter what Power I am using.
I am not going to update the OP with these changes yet. I am going to test them and hopefully also get some feedback from people here before I do so.
First, let me say I am extremely grateful to have found this thread. Your build is amazing. I have only been using it for 7 levels or so (i am 37 now), but it works great. Please keep us updated on your findings. After reading pfft2's post, it seems MM has an advantage on single targets, but CC still has the advantage for aoe when combined with storm pillar, is this the correct conclusion?
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
First, let me say I am extremely grateful to have found this thread. Your build is amazing. I have only been using it for 7 levels or so (i am 37 now), but it works great. Please keep us updated on your findings. After reading pfft2's post, it seems MM has an advantage on single targets, but CC still has the advantage for aoe when combined with storm pillar, is this the correct conclusion?
Yes, but you shouldn't use copticone's build during leveling and if you have the time for it, read the whole thread, there are a lot of tidbits of invaluable information in here.
First, let me say I am extremely grateful to have found this thread. Your build is amazing. I have only been using it for 7 levels or so (i am 37 now), but it works great. Please keep us updated on your findings. After reading pfft2's post, it seems MM has an advantage on single targets, but CC still has the advantage for aoe when combined with storm pillar, is this the correct conclusion?
It's the correct conclusion, but there's a huge caveat: Chilling Cloud and Ray of Frost benefit immensely from Feat and Class Features, far more than MM does, and far far far more than Storm Pillar does.
I've got a lot of kinda half-done tests that I've been hoping to add to my thread for awhile now, but I keep getting distracted by other things (most recently by the huuuuuge balance patch that just hit the Preview Shard, and will probably require me to redo a lot of stuff).
That said, and now that we have an understanding of the most unintuitive element (Storm Spell), the theorycrafting for At-Will single-target damage seems pretty straightforward (bugs aside). With a little math, we can come up with fairly solid provisional numbers to describe the At-Wills' relative performance with a more realistic suite of feat and feature bonuses.
First, we start with the base numbers as found in my first tests:
Magic Missile - 1,045.2 base DPS, ~2.2 attacks per second
Chilling Cloud - 777.37 base DPS, ~1.3 attacks per second
Ray of Frost - 593.8 base DPS, ~1.7 attacks per second
Storm Pillar - 1364 base DPS, ~0.43 (main strike) attacks per second
Second, we take an estimate of the Storm Spell's proc damage based on subsequent tests, and we end up with right around 750 damage. (One of the things that isn't obvious to me right now is whether Storm Spell's damage scales with power/feats/etc, but for the moment this seems like a fairly safe estimate.)
Then it's just a matter of estimating what the best-case feat/feature loadouts for each At-Will are. In the case of Chilling Cloud, copticone's build as posted in the OP is pretty much what we're looking at. In the case of Ray of Frost, you could make an argument for an Oppressor-path build instead, but we'll stick with copticone's setup for now.
In the case of MM, it's basically full Renegade. And in the case of Storm Pillar, there essentially are no feats that apply as of this time, in a single-target DPS context. (There's a feat that gives a damage bonus for hitting more than one target with Storm Pillar, but that's one target too many for our purposes here.)
So let's go down the list again, applying the relevant feat and feature bonuses:
Magic Missile -
Feats and Features (and inherent class mechanics) that apply: Arcane Mastery (both the mechanic and the feat), Learned Spellcaster, Chaos Magic, Storm Spell. (I would have added Eye of the Storm here, but Eye of the Storm just got hugely changed on the Preview Shard, and I have to test it out to know exactly what it'll add going forward.)
Storm Spell Proc rate - 12.5% chance of 750 damage per MM attack
Estimated Adjusted damage output (without Eye of the Storm, and without Chaos Magic) - ((1045.2 * (1.15 Arcane Mastery mechanic) * (1.06 Arcane Mastery feat) * (1.05 Learned Spellcaster)) + (0.125 * 750 * 2.2 Storm Spell)) = 1,544 DPS
If you toss in the average expected benefit of Chaos' Magic's debuff (not the power buff for the moment, because I don't have MM's power-scaling figures on this computer; will add later), you end up with 1544 * (1 + (0.15 / 3)) = 1,621.2 DPS
Chilling Cloud -
Feats and Features that apply: Blighting Power, Learned Spellcaster, Bitter Cold, Frozen Power Transfer (1 target's worth, in this case), Chilling Presence and Storm Spell.
Storm Spell Proc rate - 28.4% chance of 750 extra damage per attack.
Feats and Features that apply: Learned Spellcaster, Storm Spell. That's it, as far as I know at the present time. Eye of the Storm obviously would apply too, but again, I have to test its new functionality, so as always, what follow are provisional numbers, based upon a purely single-target scenario.
Storm Spell Proc rate - 17.2% chance of 750 extra damage per main-strike attack (the pillar's smaller attacks don't proc)
Do keep in mind a few things here: As noted above, these are provisional numbers, based on a naked level 60 mage wielding a T2 weapon. The fact alone that I couldn't include Eye of the Storm makes the comparison incomplete. Also keep in mind that the conditions of my comparison are somewhat unfair both to Chilling Cloud and Storm Pillar; both of those powers can hit multiple targets, and in the case of Chilling Cloud, there's a feat that confers a sizable damage buff that scales with the number of targets hit. Third, it's important to note that because Storm Spell deals damage as a separate entity, its relative importance to each At-Will's overall damage output will shift as Power and ArPen and Crit shift the base damage numbers up.
(In other words, Storm Spell's 750 damage represents a bigger boost to a lower-damage At-Will power than it does to a higher-damage one. In this case, that goes double for Ray of Frost, because RoF has both the lowest initial DPS and the best proc rate. You could conceivably contrive a situation wherein RoF beats Magic Missile, just by equipping the lowest weapon available and equipping Storm Spell.)
And finally, keep in mind that it's unrealistic to assume that any Wizard would find himself in a prolonged single-target fight without also using encounter powers, which also benefit from feats and features. Realistically, a Thaumaturge-specced Wizard using Chilling Cloud will have access to a mitigation debuff (Assailing Force) that's better than Chaos Magic's, for example. The point of this exercise is simply to show how feats and features and so on can influence the At-Will comparison. As a general rule, it is fair to say that the single-target DPS race goes as Korimus said: Magic Missile > Storm Spell > Chilling Cloud > Ray of Frost, assuming full investment in all of the above. But we're talking about a fairly narrow spread here, all things considered.
It might be more appropriate to split the At-Wills into distinct categories: Magic Missile does significantly more damage than RoF, which makes sense because RoF can almost single-handedly lockdown its target. And Storm Spell and Chilling Cloud are essentially tied as AoE options, with Chilling Cloud taking the edge in practice because of the ability to stack Chill, and its larger coverage area, which allows the CW to maximize the damage buff from Frozen Power Transfer. On the other hand, the AoE component of Storm Pillar has a smaller area, but it deals more damage to the targets it does hit (the damage on CC's AoE strike is lower on adjacent targets). None of the At-Wills is exactly bad at single-target damage.
Apologies for the length of my rambling novella here.
Reaper's Touch is, in practice, 15ft which is practically melee range (unless it was very recently corrected).
I wouldn't give up Bitter Cold, especially with all the upcoming changes. Lower AP = more At-Will + Encounter usage.
Well as of right now on the Preview Shard, Reaper's Touch appears to be bugged in such a way that you'd be foolish not to take it.
But leaving that aside, I think it's a judgment call. The Thaum playstyle kinda encourages close-range nuking. On the other hand, Bitter Cold's effectively unconditional bonus is hard to pass up. I think the real deciding factor is whether you want Nightmare Wizardry. You only have 10 non-specialty-tree feat points to spend, after all.
Comments
I know about the internal cooldown for EoTS but having Gvorp and SW set(had no luck with getting HV and dont want to buy it) im sitting at 131% crit severity, and it is just too sexy to discard any additional crit chance i can get.
stats currently 24\24 int\cha and like 4k pow\3k crit\2.2 armpen\3.1 recovery and 33% damage resist(dont remember defence number)
I have read that tempest magic on a thiefling does not stack and replaces thiefling buff instead. Its not very bad even if it works like that, i think i will get it instead of malovelent surge(i got it when FPT was bugged and evocation stacked)
I think you are right about chilling presence and bitter cold being better at PvE, i'll give it a try, because i have CP, but i think i will stick to nightmare wizardry and snap freeze instead of bitter cold for the sake of pvp
TY for your input
While slotting things, a few things occured to me. Please forgive the newbish questions/impressions that follow (since I'm still blind to a lot of endgame considerations).
Destructive Wizardry
Snap Cold would only work out as a first strike measure, and likely not often, but that seems better than not using Storm Pillar/Destructive Wizardry at all.
The Magic Missile/Arcane Stack relation?
I figure, though, that it might be the reason why you keep Magic Missile. Maybe.
Initial thoughts on Storm Pillar
I can't ever picture myself spamming the power to gain AP out of combat. It's really slow and boring. >_>
Tabbed Conduit of Ice
I see how having it around can help, since you value the capstone Thaumaturge feat... but why choose it when you could tab something else, like, say... Icy Terrain? (immobilize opponents, drop CoI on them, and try to add in a Storm Pillar?)
Brief thoughts on Sudden Storm
It has a stupidly short range, though!
I'm awkward with Chill Cloud too
I gave it a sincere try in Neverdeath graveyard, and trying to use it right usually resulted on masses of zombies tearing at my clothes while I tried to squeeze out as many full Chill Cloud combos as I could after expending my Encounter powers.
So, when go and try to use most of the above...
I did beat Rohini a lot more easily than I expected, though. I'm not quite sure why, but that seemed to work out well since imp flocks, and legion devils/erinyes got harder in general. ~_~;
I generally find a group of 2 or more mobs and hit them with a Storm Pillar before beginning a rotation of my other powers. This gives each of the powers that I fire off an additional 10% damage... or... however the calculation works ;-)
Spamming Storm Pillar before a boss fight or other fight is critical in certain situations in order to ensure that I have an Arcane Singularity ready to go. Suffice to say, it is the ONLY way to generate AP outside of combat for a CW. In combat I only use it to proc Destructive Wizardry as I state above.
I also had trouble using CoI effectively on tab because without EF on tab, mobs would not stay in the CoI long enough. The only time I could use it effectively is directly after casting a Singularity. Other players generally are knocking stuff or kiting stuff around and it's not reliable for me to hit multiple mobs with CoI. I prefer the AP gain from EF on mastery. Also, with EF on mastery I can use CoI on a mob and then EF on it to draw other mobs in to the CoI.
Now, I don't even slot CoI. I go full arcane.
I actually enjoyed this build better while soloing than in end-game because in end-game there is a lot of kiting and moving that prohibits my ability to use CoI, Chilling Cloud, and Icy Terrain effectively.
As a solo, it was very easy to use them effectively.
I found the weapon damage over time from Elemental Empowerment to be very useful for proccing Storm Spell. However, the mitigation reduction from Arcane Missiles was difficult for me to use because it only lasts 3 seconds. In that time I -might- be able to get off a few powers, but generally I have to move too much to use it effectively. Also, there is not enough time to say, fire off a cold encounter, then an arcane encounter, then take advantage of both procs for some power usage... it just doesn't last long enough.
Common scenario 2: mobs running towards you. Tabbed CoI in center of group, wait till mobs come to you, drop Icy Terrain and shift. Mobs will be frozen 2 times in a row.
Common scenario 3: you are surrounded by mobs. Shift, than tabbed CoI, shift again, drop Icy Terrain. Mobs will be frozen 2 times in a row.
Common scenario 4: you are surrounded by large amount of mobs and have daily (I don't waste my daily usually and I have my daily in every bad situation). Drop OF (not AS), than shield pulse. Go to scenario 2. Feel free to use AS, when mobs are slowed by terrain.
I mentioned this quite a few times in this thread before, but I do not recommend you leveling a CW with this. The spec needs pretty much all the points for it to come together. Not that it is horrible for leveling, or that it will make your life much harder, but much of what I discuss, even the Powers I suggest to slot are intended to be used in a group setting.
Leveling up you really need to use things like Chill Strike on Tab, Magic Missile as your primary, since in many situation it is better to quickly take out one mob at a time. Even Singularity is not really used on quests.
You are on the right track with experimenting with things. Continue with that mentality and try everything for yourself, and you will be leagues ahead of players @60 who followed a guide from level1.
Yes, this question has been asked a few times and I answered it. I keep stressing, especially for new CWs, to experiment with all the Powers.
That said the following are MUST have Powers for this spec:
Chilling Cloud
Conduit of Ice
Icy Terrain
Steal Time
Shield Pulse
Singularity
Storm Spell
Chilling Presence
Ice Knife
Repel
I recommend the following maxed:
Ray of Frost
Ice Storm
Oppressive Force
Chill Strike
Entangling Force
icy Rays
Storm Pillar
How do you enchant your Offense/Defense/Utility slots in all your gear? It seems like removing enchantments is hella expensive so I haven't even put anything in my HV set because it is end game gear. At the same time I feel like a scrub with no enchants in my 4 piece set.
Shouldn't cost that much AD to remove enchants, wayyy too much. On top of this it's pretty **** hard to make AD because the only items that sell for a lot are in the high end T2 dungeons. It's like you're totally stuck unless you spend ZEN, heh.
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@copticone
Still on my character over the Mimic test server, exploring different powers. When I managed to train for the first time Steal time, it occurred to me that I had most of the pieces I'd need to make your Thaumaturge build 'work' (albeit not with the full suite of bonuses).
I practiced getting the hang of [tab]ConduitOfIce/IceTerrain/StealTime/Shield. At first it was a bit awkward because there's a lot more point-blank bursts in there instead of more direct attacks. I kept at it wandering around my last PvE leg of Sky Hold, and started to see how the build could work out. Basically, going from tab, to Q, E, R-shield bursting in a pinch, and then spamming whatever gets off cooldown while tossing out the Chilling Cloud rotations I can sneak inbetween... and stuff would die.
I didn't get a sense of doing better with smaller groups of monsters (whom I could handily get rid of with a Entangling Force/Sudden Storm combo). In fact, this felt like a very up-close combat build that placed me to great risk, and I'd often lose out a whole 1/3 of my hit points in fights involving slightly tougher monsters (Hexers, Deathpledged gnolls). However, it seemed to exceptionally deal with much larger groups of monsters (including Sky Hold's last non-raid boss, which gave my Trickster Rogue so much more grief by comparison) to the point of keeping my Daily as my "Oh shi-" button felt much less relevant.
But then, you did say this was more of a team build, and I can see it. The high risk factor becomes much less significant if not all monsters are focused on only fighting a single Control Wizard. I can understand how people can vouch for this as an endgame dungeon build.
This said, I think I'm drawing out the most satisfaction out of the Oppressor feat tree at this moment. I liked using [Tab]Entangling Force/Sudden Storm to wipe out most normal groups of enemies; while keeping a Chill Strike and Shield Burst as a quick get-rid-of-the-rest backup if any outflanked that. Though when I'm actually in a fight against something hardier(tougher mob like an Hexer, Enforcer and such) I really like locking them down and keeping them at bay with Ray of Frost used inbetween Entangling Force and Chill Strike.
I figure my playstyle can still mature from there - there's no science behind my preferences so much as comfort level while I do PvE stuff by my lonesome. At the moment I'm kind of toying around replacing Chill Strike for another spell - I tried Ray of Enfeeblement, but found it... weak. Steal Time and Ray of Ice are those I plan to toy around with next (though I'm not enthused by Ray of Ice, seeing how its damage is even less than Ray of Enfeeblement).
If it is not worth at least 70% of its AH value, then dont ever remove an enchant from a slot. Just put the new one on top and call it trial and error.
I can't tell you what to enchant your gear with. Enchanting is about balancing your Stats. So you need to see what you are lacking and enchant accordingly. Also remember that Runestones are much cheaper than enchants. Shoot for 3k Recovery, 2.2k crit, 1.5k-2k Armor Pen. Dont enchant for Power, just whatever you get with your gear is fine. About 1k Defense. I have 1.5k Life Steal, it's up to you if you want to go that route. You may want to enchant for HP instead in your Defensive slots.
@umaeko
I am glad you are figuring things out on your own. That's how people should use guides/specs. You get ideas from others, and try them out to see how they fit your playstyle. Good luck.
Before I saw these updates, I was contemplating making a couple of changes to this spec. And after reading all these changes, I think there is even more reason to do so. Not that the changes are breaking the build, but I think we can capitalize on them, making it even better.
Based on pfft2 testing At-Wills, which can be found here I decided to introduce Storm Pillar in my "rotation", namely as an Opener and/or right under a Singularity. I was actually pleased with the damage output of Storm Pillar, especially when it crits.
So here is the first change that I am proposing, and I will test them out myself when I respec in the next day or so:
- Switching the 5 points of Tempest Magic into Destructive Wizardry.
This will allow me to actually continue using Storm Pillar the same way I am doing now, but get a damage boost at the same time. Also as a Tiefling, there is not much of a loss here since both the racial and the feat don't seem to be stacking.
With the decrease in AP gain of Shield, Critical Power looks very attractive atm.
- So my Second change, is to put 5 points into it. Now here is where it gets tricky. Bitter Cold vs. Reaper's Touch. Given my playstyle, stacking Life Steal and mostly being on adds, I know I am within the 20ft range of most targets. So I know I definitely make use of Reaper's Touch. Plus with me starting to use Storm Pillar every so often, it is a nice boost. On the other hand Bitter Cold, is a flat 5% damage boost that's constantly on no matter where I am standing and no matter what Power I am using.
I am not going to update the OP with these changes yet. I am going to test them and hopefully also get some feedback from people here before I do so.
Pillar could become the main At-will if it benefited as good as chilling cloud from storm spell, or at least evocation. Right now there are no class features that is good with Pillar, but maybe Chilling presence and revorked EoTs will be.
I would still be using Chilling Presence and Storm Spell. I am not spamming Storm Pillar. But yea so far so good. Ran a couple of CN tonight and AP gain is very good. I will update again tomorrow.
Okay, from my running this on Mimic, I'm quite certain that Reaper's Touch is a worthwhile investment. As long as you stick to using Icy Terrain and Steal Time, you're likely getting the most from it already. Icy Terrain also doesn't crit (from what I've read here) so that's one ability that wouldn't beneficiate from it.
The same goes for Bitter Cold. Most of your powers except your Dailies (Arcane Singularity/Oppressive Force) and your At-Will (Storm Pillar) don't benefit from it - so it's in general very worthwhile.
And the "why" is... I don't think Critical Power supports the philosophy behind your build, which was about assured bonuses instead of gambling to get that extra oomph from going for gambles. The 10 second cooldown on top of needing to critical hit (meaning your build becomes further skewed toward Int/Cha builds rather than being more 'general') is also not a huge endorsement for it, IMHO.
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I'm of the frame of mind that the time of back-to-back dailies is over, and that people simply need to adapt to tossing those out at more pivotal moments. Fortunately, your build is likely indeed mostly nerf-proof here, since you weren't putting all your eggs in the same basket and that you can actually do a lot of stuff well rather than being victim to Singularity overspecialization.
Wow, lotta stuff in there. Feeling kinda blindsided at the moment, honestly.
First, let me say I am extremely grateful to have found this thread. Your build is amazing. I have only been using it for 7 levels or so (i am 37 now), but it works great. Please keep us updated on your findings. After reading pfft2's post, it seems MM has an advantage on single targets, but CC still has the advantage for aoe when combined with storm pillar, is this the correct conclusion?
I wouldn't give up Bitter Cold, especially with all the upcoming changes. Lower AP = more At-Will + Encounter usage.
It's the correct conclusion, but there's a huge caveat: Chilling Cloud and Ray of Frost benefit immensely from Feat and Class Features, far more than MM does, and far far far more than Storm Pillar does.
I've got a lot of kinda half-done tests that I've been hoping to add to my thread for awhile now, but I keep getting distracted by other things (most recently by the huuuuuge balance patch that just hit the Preview Shard, and will probably require me to redo a lot of stuff).
That said, and now that we have an understanding of the most unintuitive element (Storm Spell), the theorycrafting for At-Will single-target damage seems pretty straightforward (bugs aside). With a little math, we can come up with fairly solid provisional numbers to describe the At-Wills' relative performance with a more realistic suite of feat and feature bonuses.
First, we start with the base numbers as found in my first tests:
Second, we take an estimate of the Storm Spell's proc damage based on subsequent tests, and we end up with right around 750 damage. (One of the things that isn't obvious to me right now is whether Storm Spell's damage scales with power/feats/etc, but for the moment this seems like a fairly safe estimate.)
Then it's just a matter of estimating what the best-case feat/feature loadouts for each At-Will are. In the case of Chilling Cloud, copticone's build as posted in the OP is pretty much what we're looking at. In the case of Ray of Frost, you could make an argument for an Oppressor-path build instead, but we'll stick with copticone's setup for now.
In the case of MM, it's basically full Renegade. And in the case of Storm Pillar, there essentially are no feats that apply as of this time, in a single-target DPS context. (There's a feat that gives a damage bonus for hitting more than one target with Storm Pillar, but that's one target too many for our purposes here.)
So let's go down the list again, applying the relevant feat and feature bonuses:
Magic Missile -
Storm Spell Proc rate - 12.5% chance of 750 damage per MM attack
Estimated Adjusted damage output (without Eye of the Storm, and without Chaos Magic) -
((1045.2 * (1.15 Arcane Mastery mechanic) * (1.06 Arcane Mastery feat) * (1.05 Learned Spellcaster)) + (0.125 * 750 * 2.2 Storm Spell)) = 1,544 DPS
Chilling Cloud -
Storm Spell Proc rate - 28.4% chance of 750 extra damage per attack.
Estimated Adjusted damage output -
(777.37 * (1.09 Blighting Power) * (1.05 Learned Spellcaster) * (1.05 Bitter Cold) * (1.05 Frozen Power Transfer) * (1.18 Chilling Presence)) + (0.284 * 750 * 1.3 Storm Spell) = 1,434.3 DPS
Ray of Frost -
Storm Spell Proc rate - 33.4% chance of 750 extra damage per attack
Estimated Adjusted damage output -
(593.8 * (1.09 Blighting Power) * (1.05 Learned Spellcaster) * (1.05 Bitter Cold) * (1.18 Chilling Presence)) + (0.334 * 750 * 1.7 Storm Spell) = 1,267.9 DPS
Storm Pillar -
Storm Spell Proc rate - 17.2% chance of 750 extra damage per main-strike attack (the pillar's smaller attacks don't proc)
Estimated Adjusted damage output -
(1364 * (1.05 Learned Spellcaster)) + (0.172 * 750 * 0.43 Storm Spell) = 1487.67 DPS
Do keep in mind a few things here: As noted above, these are provisional numbers, based on a naked level 60 mage wielding a T2 weapon. The fact alone that I couldn't include Eye of the Storm makes the comparison incomplete. Also keep in mind that the conditions of my comparison are somewhat unfair both to Chilling Cloud and Storm Pillar; both of those powers can hit multiple targets, and in the case of Chilling Cloud, there's a feat that confers a sizable damage buff that scales with the number of targets hit. Third, it's important to note that because Storm Spell deals damage as a separate entity, its relative importance to each At-Will's overall damage output will shift as Power and ArPen and Crit shift the base damage numbers up.
(In other words, Storm Spell's 750 damage represents a bigger boost to a lower-damage At-Will power than it does to a higher-damage one. In this case, that goes double for Ray of Frost, because RoF has both the lowest initial DPS and the best proc rate. You could conceivably contrive a situation wherein RoF beats Magic Missile, just by equipping the lowest weapon available and equipping Storm Spell.)
And finally, keep in mind that it's unrealistic to assume that any Wizard would find himself in a prolonged single-target fight without also using encounter powers, which also benefit from feats and features. Realistically, a Thaumaturge-specced Wizard using Chilling Cloud will have access to a mitigation debuff (Assailing Force) that's better than Chaos Magic's, for example.
The point of this exercise is simply to show how feats and features and so on can influence the At-Will comparison. As a general rule, it is fair to say that the single-target DPS race goes as Korimus said: Magic Missile > Storm Spell > Chilling Cloud > Ray of Frost, assuming full investment in all of the above. But we're talking about a fairly narrow spread here, all things considered.
It might be more appropriate to split the At-Wills into distinct categories: Magic Missile does significantly more damage than RoF, which makes sense because RoF can almost single-handedly lockdown its target. And Storm Spell and Chilling Cloud are essentially tied as AoE options, with Chilling Cloud taking the edge in practice because of the ability to stack Chill, and its larger coverage area, which allows the CW to maximize the damage buff from Frozen Power Transfer. On the other hand, the AoE component of Storm Pillar has a smaller area, but it deals more damage to the targets it does hit (the damage on CC's AoE strike is lower on adjacent targets). None of the At-Wills is exactly bad at single-target damage.
Apologies for the length of my rambling novella here.
Well as of right now on the Preview Shard, Reaper's Touch appears to be bugged in such a way that you'd be foolish not to take it.
But leaving that aside, I think it's a judgment call. The Thaum playstyle kinda encourages close-range nuking. On the other hand, Bitter Cold's effectively unconditional bonus is hard to pass up. I think the real deciding factor is whether you want Nightmare Wizardry. You only have 10 non-specialty-tree feat points to spend, after all.
Edited to add a link to a description of the bug: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?425381-Some-changes-on-Preview&p=5456861#post5456861
lol, fair enough, I concede!
Good testing.
Feedback and criticism are equally appreciated.