Watching this thread closely as I plan for a respec when the Feywild content is launched. I'm only lvl 54 right now, so I've been lurking and reading stuff trying to figure out what I'm going to do at lvl 60.
Using your updated build what T2 set would be most appropriate? Assuming that price is not a concern. I'm sure you probably answered this question somewhere in the thread, but, 46 pages is a lot to read. I'm also concerned that with everything changing as of late, any information I might find earlier in the thread could be outdated!
So basically, which set do you feel pairs best with this build?
Thanks for your reply. I was going to ask you to shed some light on why you think HV bonus is so much better than SW bonus, but, instead I continued to read the 'Best in slot T2 set' thread. Which I should have read before making this post, but, unfortunately I didn't see it until after my original post.
The SW buff seems like it would be effective to some extent, but, I have no idea how effective it would be compared to HV. Also, the SW buff seems like it would be a pain in the *** to keep going all the time. Especially to take maximum advantage of it.
Just one last question though. Do we know if the HV set will continue to stack with other CW's who are currently using it? I mean once Feywild comes out.
At the end of the day I'm going to purchase HV set really soon. It costs a good bit less than SW and assuming I won't both sets I could always buy SW later on when I have more AD.
So far multiple HV sets stack. If and when they change that, it is still wise to have a set. That way at least 1cw in the group will have the debuff to use. It is also good for PvP.
Well, despite my previously stated preference for Oppressor feats, I haven't found that those worked out all that well in the Chasm. I ended up trying your revised Thaumaturge build and while it wasn't like I was breezing through enemy encoutners, they got somewhat easier to manage while I froze stuff and layed down more decisive damage on them. I certainly got better at using Chill Cloud and being able to use my point-blank powers without getting stuck in red-zones due to overcommiting to using those powers (icy terrain, steal time) which improved my survivability on top of being able to lob around more icy death.
There are a few powers I'd like to hold up for contention, though.
Storm Pillar
Storm Pillar feels kind of redundant next to Chill Cloud as primary At-Will. A Chill Cloud rotation will cause AoE damage, and so will a full charge of Storm Pillar. However, Storm Pillar's charge time gives me an "all or nothing" impression - commiting to a full charge usually yields a good result, but not doing so seemly piddly by comparison. The end result seems to be that I either stand my ground and expose myself to enemy attack as I charge it, or prioritize dodging and loose a rather unimpressive zap.
I also have a tendency to prioritize the use of Chill Cloud while I have opponents clustered together (often atop icy terrain). Whenever I think of Storm Pillar is when there's generally only one target left. I thought of using it as an opener, but it felt counter-productive to aggro the mobs with an attack without making that be the chill-stacking Tabbed-Conduit of Ice.
So, overall, Chill Cloud seems to serve the need for an At-will that provides granular attacks, that I can stop midway to dodge, but get amply rewarded if I go through the full rotation. Often enough, I end up only having a single tougher opponent in a group surviving most of my powers... so I end up thinking that a single target at-will might be of greater value.
Magic Missile is fast and delivers good damage, and is semi-granular in the same fashion as Chill Cloud with a payoff at the end of its rotation.
Ray of Frost is likely the most granular At-will power we CWs have. To me, it feels like I can fire it off, and get something good at any point even if I have to suddenly dodge. Then, I'm free to channel the ray again if I so choose. It also has a fair level of synergy with [tab]CoI and Icy Terrain.
Shield
Maybe it's just the way I use it, or the recent patch adjustments... but as my character leveled up, Shield has felt increasingly less pivotal than before. I've never really paid much attention to its AP gain, and nowadays it seems pretty insignificant by contrast too... what I notice is that once upon a time (pre-lv35?) Shield Releases were of great help in finishing off my enemies - heck, a shield release alone could kill groups of minions fairly easily!
Now, the Shield spell and its contribution grows to feel like one of many drops in a sea. I typically find myself loathe to shield release to retain the protection (since I'm squishy and do get hit when using my powers up close - I can't dodge everything) and when I release, not that much of it seems worthwhile (it sometimes even seem detrimental, as I occasionally use the panic button to push enemies out of my Icy Terrain).
It sometimes feels like I'm just wasting my R on a passive power. I've been wondering if that was counter-productive and if I should change it. I figure people have a good reason to be attached to shield, but with the AP adjustment, maybe Shield is just not people valued it to be anymore. Maybe we're just keeping shield out of habit rather than because it makes sense now?
Usually, I find that Conduit of Ice, Icy Terrain, Steal Time and Chill Cloud rotations do a fairly good job as AoE tools go (around Rothe valley, anyhow). A bit like I commented for Storm Pillar, what I usually find myself missing is reliable single-target powers.
I've tried Ice Rays, but like Ray of Enfeeblement I find that power largely underwhelming. So, right now, I'm trying out Chill Strike - which feels like it has more decisive oomph, and the stun gives me a bit of breathing room for my cooldowns - time I usually spend pumping in Chill Cloud as much as possible (if I had Ray of Frost, I'd probably make more decisively sure that the mob stays frozen after the stun ends).
Ability Scores
This is more me thinking aloud about my choices. I started out my moon elf CW on Mimic with Int18/Wis16/Cha14 as I was aiming to get the most cumulative percentile values total. For the latest revision of this Thaumaturge build, I decided to put all my level up points in Int/Cha rather than Int/Wis.
Charisma gives more critical hit chance, and your build seems to be counting on that by investing in the Critical Power feat for a potential action point gain. But since the goal in taking the feat in the first place is gaining an extra percentile in Action Powers per power if that power ends up critting, I end up wondering...
Well... this build was about not taking gambles and choosing only sureshot bonuses, right? So, wouldn't a higher Wisdom grant a significant Action Point gain without depending on critting, or being on a 10 second timer in the first place?
My own dilemma rests mostly on starting my character on the 22nd with either Int/Cha or Int/Wis in priority. I can kind of see how people would think of critical hit chance possibly being more valuable by the smaller-spanning bonuses of Wisdom... but if you're trying to do criticals for the sake of gaining action points, wouldn't putting points more directly in the sole stat that hands out action point bonuses in the first place prove more fruitful?
CHA gives you 1% CA damage, 1% crit. This numbers maybe small, but they increase your damage directly and not diminished.
WIS gives you 1% AP generation and 1% recharge speed. Recharge speed with current recharge formula diminishies itself: for 50% recharge speed you gain 33% shorter cooldown, for another 50% you gain only 17% cooldown. As for AP generation - it's minor addition to minor numbers and you will barely see any differences.
CHA is obvious choise for any wizard.
There is a reason why I didn't write the OP as a Guide. This is definitely not the "ideal" setup for solo play.
The point of Storm Pillar in the updated spec is to get the 10% buff, and generate more AP. Also with the change, it will refresh the chills, so you're not loosing anything if you replace a round of Chilling Cloud with Storm Pillar. As an opener, there are situations where you dont have a target in sight yet, like when someone runs ahead to pull. Having a full charged Storm Pillar ready gives you an instant "full round" of damage + the 10% buff for anything that follows, usually a CoI.
Shield while soloing is lackluster, and will be even more so with the new changes. But in a Dungeon encounter, its utility it undeniable, not to mention it's excellent AoE damage.
WIS vs Critical Power. Wisdom increase your AP gain by a percentage, while Critical Power gives you a flat 5% additional AP. In practice, I am seeing a huge difference, that I never saw when I had WIS maxed. For example, with Critical Power, my CoI is giving me 30% AP on the 3 target dummies.
- Since my CW is a Tiefling, I decided to replace Tempest Magic with Destructive Wizardry. If for nothing else, it's just gives me something different to do with Storm Pillar. But I feel that it is giving me an extra boost overall. And with the new changes to Storm Pillar, namely refreshing Chill Stacks, it is definitely not a bad switch.
What would you recomend to do with extra 3 points from human race. Im in a bit dilema to put 2 more points in Controling Action and then what to do with 1 point left or to put all 3 in Fight on and reduce cool time...and should I stick with Tempest magic as human?
What would you recomend to do with extra 3 points from human race. Im in a bit dilema to put 2 more points in Controling Action and then what to do with 1 point left or to put all 3 in Fight on and reduce cool time...and should I stick with Tempest magic as human?
As Human, I would probably put the 3 points in Focused Wizardry. With regards to Tempest Magic, it is up to you. Probably a good idea to make burning bosses at the end quicker.
uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
edited August 2013
Just a short info, I did some tests on the Mimic shard today. On live I currently have 25 int, 20 cha and 20 wis (with campfire buff), and I wanted to know how a change to more Charisma works out.
Preface: All tests were done with Conduit of Ice, Steal Time, Shield Pulse, Icy Terrain and Chilling Cloud. I did use copticones new feat spec, as linked in the OP.
Therefore I did three tests on Mimic.
1. How does the change from 20 cha/20 wis to 24 cha/16 wis impact the cooldown of the encounter powers: they went up around 800ms each, AP recharge gain went down by 4% (regarding the information from the character sheet)
For the following two tests I used the three dummies in the first room of the Trade of Blades. I intially charged up my Action Points with Storm Pillar, used one Daily to empty my action points and stopped the time how long it takes to be able to cast a daily again (using the above mentioned powers).
2. How does "Controlling Action" compare to "Fight On" in regards to Action Point gain: With three points in "Controlling Action" it took me about 25 seconds to be fully charged, and with the same three points in "Fight On" instead, it took me about 25 seconds as well.
3. In regards to "Critical Power", is "Chillings Presence" or "Eye of the Storm" better for Action Point gain: With "Chilling Presence" it always took me around 25 seconds to regain a full Action Point dice. With "Eye of the Storm" it took between 23 and 27 seconds.
I'm curious if someone does know if "Controlling Action" does scale up with more targets--I wouldn't think so regarding the tooltip.
Just a short info, I did some tests on the Mimic shard today. On live I currently have 25 int, 20 cha and 20 wis (with campfire buff), and I wanted to know how a change to more Charisma works out.
Preface: All tests were done with Conduit of Ice, Steal Time, Shield Pulse, Icy Terrain and Chilling Cloud. I did use copticones new feat spec, as linked in the OP.
Therefore I did three tests on Mimic.
1. How does the change from 20 cha/20 wis to 24 cha/16 wis impact the cooldown of the encounter powers: they went up around 800ms each, AP recharge gain went down by 4% (regarding the information from the character sheet)
For the following two tests I used the three dummies in the first room of the Trade of Blades. I intially charged up my Action Points with Storm Pillar, used one Daily to empty my action points and stopped the time how long it takes to be able to cast a daily again (using the above mentioned powers).
2. How does "Controlling Action" compare to "Fight On" in regards to Action Point gain: With three points in "Controlling Action" it took me about 25 seconds to be fully charged, and with the same three points in "Fight On" instead, it took me about 25 seconds as well.
3. In regards to "Critical Power", is "Chillings Presence" or "Eye of the Storm" better for Action Point gain: With "Chilling Presence" it always took me around 25 seconds to regain a full Action Point dice. With "Eye of the Storm" it took between 23 and 27 seconds.
I'm curious if someone does know if "Controlling Action" does scale up with more targets--I wouldn't think so regarding the tooltip.
Take care,
Urbs
Thank you for the feedback.
My philosophy is to strike a balance that fits my playstyle. I am sure someone can squeeze some extra AP gain with a certain setup. I prefer to maximize my dps but have the AP gain that gives me enough Singularities to get the job done. I totally believe that CWs are the least gear dependent of all the classes. All you really need is to reach certain minimum thresholds in your stats to get the job done. The rest is based on your skill and the spec/feats that matches your playstyle.
I just came out of 3 back to back CN runs, 2 of which we had to pug the last spot. One shotted Draco all three times. I actually thought I had excess AP gain, and that's with Repel on Tab. The other CW also had Repel on Tab. During the punting phase, several times I had a singularity just wanting for the next Red Wizard to pop. So at this point, and with the recent tweak to my spec, I really don't see a need at all to have faster AP gain or lower CDs.
My only issue with the recent respec is that Storm Pillar seems to either been nerfed or bugged on the preview server. On the Live server however, I am really liking it.
My philosophy is to strike a balance that fits my playstyle.
Yeah, that's my philosophy as well and the reason why I just didn't copy your spec, but try out different aspects to fit my playstyle :cool:
Next tests, I'm going to do on Mimic are going to be aimed at maximizing damage output (with control). I'm currently looking for a good test szenario, as I prefer to be able to do my test without the need of others to tag along.
My only issue with the recent respec is that Storm Pillar seems to either been nerfed or bugged on the preview server. On the Live server however, I am really liking it.
What difference do you recon on the Preview vs. the Live shard--as I don't have Storm Pillar on Live (I normally do not like channel-and-release powers).
What difference do you recon on the Preview vs. the Live shard--as I don't have Storm Pillar on Live (I normally do not like channel-and-release powers).
Thanks for the response!
If the Storm Pillar that's on the Preview goes live as is, then I would switch back to Tempest Magic and take the points out of Destructive Wizardry.
Well, despite my previously stated preference for Oppressor feats, I haven't found that those worked out all that well in the Chasm. I ended up trying your revised Thaumaturge build and while it wasn't like I was breezing through enemy encoutners, they got somewhat easier to manage while I froze stuff and layed down more decisive damage on them. I certainly got better at using Chill Cloud and being able to use my point-blank powers without getting stuck in red-zones due to overcommiting to using those powers (icy terrain, steal time) which improved my survivability on top of being able to lob around more icy death.
There are a few powers I'd like to hold up for contention, though.
Storm Pillar
Storm Pillar feels kind of redundant next to Chill Cloud as primary At-Will. A Chill Cloud rotation will cause AoE damage, and so will a full charge of Storm Pillar. However, Storm Pillar's charge time gives me an "all or nothing" impression - commiting to a full charge usually yields a good result, but not doing so seemly piddly by comparison. The end result seems to be that I either stand my ground and expose myself to enemy attack as I charge it, or prioritize dodging and loose a rather unimpressive zap.
I also have a tendency to prioritize the use of Chill Cloud while I have opponents clustered together (often atop icy terrain). Whenever I think of Storm Pillar is when there's generally only one target left. I thought of using it as an opener, but it felt counter-productive to aggro the mobs with an attack without making that be the chill-stacking Tabbed-Conduit of Ice.
So, overall, Chill Cloud seems to serve the need for an At-will that provides granular attacks, that I can stop midway to dodge, but get amply rewarded if I go through the full rotation. Often enough, I end up only having a single tougher opponent in a group surviving most of my powers... so I end up thinking that a single target at-will might be of greater value.
Magic Missile is fast and delivers good damage, and is semi-granular in the same fashion as Chill Cloud with a payoff at the end of its rotation.
Ray of Frost is likely the most granular At-will power we CWs have. To me, it feels like I can fire it off, and get something good at any point even if I have to suddenly dodge. Then, I'm free to channel the ray again if I so choose. It also has a fair level of synergy with [tab]CoI and Icy Terrain.
If you use the build in this thread, and want the most damage, then you should slot Chilling Cloud and Storm Pillar... Magic Missile's 3 second debuff won't cut it. Stick feat points in the feat that increases damage when using Storm Pillar on more than one target. Fire off Storm Pillar to open and then use CoI because CoI is considered a DoT. DoT spells in this game take in to account your damage values on cast and maintain that damage through their duration. If you lose a damage buff while a DoT is running, then the spell won't lose any damage.
Storm Pillar will also buff Chilling Cloud damage for its' buff duration, assuming there is more than one target to hit. In summary, use Storm Pillar to open, make sure you get the 10% damage buff, then use your encounters.
It's the correct conclusion, but there's a huge caveat: Chilling Cloud and Ray of Frost benefit immensely from Feat and Class Features, far more than MM does, and far far far more than Storm Pillar does.
I've got a lot of kinda half-done tests that I've been hoping to add to my thread for awhile now, but I keep getting distracted by other things (most recently by the huuuuuge balance patch that just hit the Preview Shard, and will probably require me to redo a lot of stuff).
That said, and now that we have an understanding of the most unintuitive element (Storm Spell), the theorycrafting for At-Will single-target damage seems pretty straightforward (bugs aside). With a little math, we can come up with fairly solid provisional numbers to describe the At-Wills' relative performance with a more realistic suite of feat and feature bonuses.
First, we start with the base numbers as found in my first tests:
Magic Missile - 1,045.2 base DPS, ~2.2 attacks per second
Chilling Cloud - 777.37 base DPS, ~1.3 attacks per second
Ray of Frost - 593.8 base DPS, ~1.7 attacks per second
Storm Pillar - 1364 base DPS, ~0.43 (main strike) attacks per second
Second, we take an estimate of the Storm Spell's proc damage based on subsequent tests, and we end up with right around 750 damage. (One of the things that isn't obvious to me right now is whether Storm Spell's damage scales with power/feats/etc, but for the moment this seems like a fairly safe estimate.)
Then it's just a matter of estimating what the best-case feat/feature loadouts for each At-Will are. In the case of Chilling Cloud, copticone's build as posted in the OP is pretty much what we're looking at. In the case of Ray of Frost, you could make an argument for an Oppressor-path build instead, but we'll stick with copticone's setup for now.
In the case of MM, it's basically full Renegade. And in the case of Storm Pillar, there essentially are no feats that apply as of this time, in a single-target DPS context. (There's a feat that gives a damage bonus for hitting more than one target with Storm Pillar, but that's one target too many for our purposes here.)
So let's go down the list again, applying the relevant feat and feature bonuses:
Magic Missile -
Feats and Features (and inherent class mechanics) that apply: Arcane Mastery (both the mechanic and the feat), Learned Spellcaster, Chaos Magic, Storm Spell. (I would have added Eye of the Storm here, but Eye of the Storm just got hugely changed on the Preview Shard, and I have to test it out to know exactly what it'll add going forward.)
Storm Spell Proc rate - 12.5% chance of 750 damage per MM attack
Estimated Adjusted damage output (without Eye of the Storm, and without Chaos Magic) - ((1045.2 * (1.15 Arcane Mastery mechanic) * (1.06 Arcane Mastery feat) * (1.05 Learned Spellcaster)) + (0.125 * 750 * 2.2 Storm Spell)) = 1,544 DPS
If you toss in the average expected benefit of Chaos' Magic's debuff (not the power buff for the moment, because I don't have MM's power-scaling figures on this computer; will add later), you end up with 1544 * (1 + (0.15 / 3)) = 1,621.2 DPS
Chilling Cloud -
Feats and Features that apply: Blighting Power, Learned Spellcaster, Bitter Cold, Frozen Power Transfer (1 target's worth, in this case), Chilling Presence and Storm Spell.
Storm Spell Proc rate - 28.4% chance of 750 extra damage per attack.
Feats and Features that apply: Learned Spellcaster, Storm Spell. That's it, as far as I know at the present time. Eye of the Storm obviously would apply too, but again, I have to test its new functionality, so as always, what follow are provisional numbers, based upon a purely single-target scenario.
Storm Spell Proc rate - 17.2% chance of 750 extra damage per main-strike attack (the pillar's smaller attacks don't proc)
Do keep in mind a few things here: As noted above, these are provisional numbers, based on a naked level 60 mage wielding a T2 weapon. The fact alone that I couldn't include Eye of the Storm makes the comparison incomplete. Also keep in mind that the conditions of my comparison are somewhat unfair both to Chilling Cloud and Storm Pillar; both of those powers can hit multiple targets, and in the case of Chilling Cloud, there's a feat that confers a sizable damage buff that scales with the number of targets hit. Third, it's important to note that because Storm Spell deals damage as a separate entity, its relative importance to each At-Will's overall damage output will shift as Power and ArPen and Crit shift the base damage numbers up.
(In other words, Storm Spell's 750 damage represents a bigger boost to a lower-damage At-Will power than it does to a higher-damage one. In this case, that goes double for Ray of Frost, because RoF has both the lowest initial DPS and the best proc rate. You could conceivably contrive a situation wherein RoF beats Magic Missile, just by equipping the lowest weapon available and equipping Storm Spell.)
And finally, keep in mind that it's unrealistic to assume that any Wizard would find himself in a prolonged single-target fight without also using encounter powers, which also benefit from feats and features. Realistically, a Thaumaturge-specced Wizard using Chilling Cloud will have access to a mitigation debuff (Assailing Force) that's better than Chaos Magic's, for example. The point of this exercise is simply to show how feats and features and so on can influence the At-Will comparison. As a general rule, it is fair to say that the single-target DPS race goes as Korimus said: Magic Missile > Storm Spell > Chilling Cloud > Ray of Frost, assuming full investment in all of the above. But we're talking about a fairly narrow spread here, all things considered.
It might be more appropriate to split the At-Wills into distinct categories: Magic Missile does significantly more damage than RoF, which makes sense because RoF can almost single-handedly lockdown its target. And Storm Spell and Chilling Cloud are essentially tied as AoE options, with Chilling Cloud taking the edge in practice because of the ability to stack Chill, and its larger coverage area, which allows the CW to maximize the damage buff from Frozen Power Transfer. On the other hand, the AoE component of Storm Pillar has a smaller area, but it deals more damage to the targets it does hit (the damage on CC's AoE strike is lower on adjacent targets). None of the At-Wills is exactly bad at single-target damage.
Apologies for the length of my rambling novella here.
THANK YOU for posting all of this information! I am so glad I found and read this thread. I understand this build is not optimal for leveling, but I do find it is working well so for the time being, I am sticking to it. I think I will do some testing at my level (40) and see how these At wills compare based on the feats I currently have.
My only issue with the recent respec is that Storm Pillar seems to either been nerfed or bugged on the preview server. On the Live server however, I am really liking it.
Yeah, the most recent Preview patch broke it again: the lingering pillar effect can no longer crit. The lingering pillar effect also could never proc, as far as I know. The second disadvantage was unfortunate but acceptable. The crit thing is not acceptable.
It's morbidly amusing that on the same day Eye of the Storm became a truly competitive substitute for Chilling Presence (in PvE), the developers also rendered the most likely AoE At-Will for Eye of the Storm builds (Renegades) completely incompatible with it. One step forward, and at least one step back.
Thank you for the feedback.
I just came out of 3 back to back CN runs, 2 of which we had to pug the last spot. One shotted Draco all three times. I actually thought I had excess AP gain, and that's with Repel on Tab. The other CW also had Repel on Tab. During the punting phase, several times I had a singularity just wanting for the next Red Wizard to pop. So at this point, and with the recent tweak to my spec, I really don't see a need at all to have faster AP gain or lower CDs.
Yes, but how will that be with the changes to shield? Or this was on test server that you ran cn with the changes.?
Yes, but how will that be with the changes to shield? Or this was on test server that you ran cn with the changes.?
The CN runs were on Live. But I dont use EF on Tab. Instead I have Repel. And Shield is just there as backup or to push a Red Wizard away from the dragon. So I am not really using Shield as an AP regen, or at least I am not dependent on it. Critical Power seems to make a good difference. Most CN runs have at 2 CWs, and some even 3. If between the 2-3 CWs, they cant generate enough AP to alternate Singularities, then something is seriously wrong. I do however make use of Storm Pillar to generate AP when everything else is on CD.
One easy way I used to gauge Critical Power's impact on AP gain is just to spam charged Storm Pillars. Periodically, the AP gain Storm Pillar gives will ramp up dramatically in a way that seems to fit with the 10 second cooldown. I was actually surprised at the frequency - I got a boost at every 4-5 zaps on repeated occasion, which was surprising considering my Test CWs ~30% critical hit probability.
Another spell I gave a try was Shard of the Endless Avalanche, which happens to get 3 points in this build - I figured, why not? Even though I heard it was frowned upon, I really enjoyed it when I first tried it out: it made Mount Hotenow's critter groups tons easier to deal with, was satisfyingly effective. It made me want to try taking 5 points in "Transcended Master" rather than "Nightmare Wizardry" just for a bit more power-swapping build diversity.
Mostly, I formed my boulder, used a tabbed-Chill Strike on the critter group, and then lobbed the boulder bowling-ball-style at the incoming. Then there'd be a huge explosion with 5000s hovering above poor broken corpses, and some nice AP gains. It was beautiful. xD
When it worked. The Shard tends to deal really badly with large opponents and bosses. Also, critter groups changed around Sharandar, and the Redcaps tended to be more spaced out, making it hard to get the boulder explosion, and they'd survive to rush and flank me, often nearly killing me. So, it kind of felt more like novelty at that point, and I abandoned the shard to entirely return to the specs of this build.
* * *
I know it might have been annoying to get a relative newbie experimentally piece together this Thaumaturgist build - sorry about that. I figured I was at least bumping your thread, though maybe I should've just started my own and made regular updates in it about what I was trying out.
However, as I experimented, I got to know a lot of wizard powers and often enough ended up returning to this build because it just plain worked - especially when PvE encounter difficulty ramps up around level 35+ and that you simply need to switch tactics because the mobs aren't going to fall down in a two spell combo anymore. It might require quaffing a potion here and there to make up with the risky up-close use of Icy Terrain and Steal Time, but this build never really gets overwhelmed (which, considering Sharandar's solo content, feels fairly relevant).
I still don't really have any 5-man dungeon experience, but at least now I've a fairly good idea of the Int/Cha Control Wizard I want to make coming August 22nd.
So, thanks Copticone. This is a pretty solid build you have here.
Hello, I have questions:
1) You don't take the feat "fight on" (encounter coldown reduced by 10%). Why?
2) With the new patch, you can have passives skills. Do you prefer 3% more live or 1,75% more AP? (I think 1,75% more AP)
3) Do you prefer 10% more stamina regeneration or 20 power on kill for 45 sec, stacks 30 times (it's a second passives skill with patch)? The first is usefull all time (even on boss) but 600 power is strong (but not on boss).
@umaeko
Thanks for the feedback with your experience. I definitely think there are quite a few combos still not being capitalized that are very interesting. For example, last night I did a couple of CN runs and decided to use Oppressive force as my main Daily, with Singularity as backup. We usually run 2xCW 2xTR 1xDC. So as CWs we are the "tanks" in CN. I would wait for the other CW to throw his singularity, then as soon as they drop to the group I followed with Oppressive Force. It was extremely effective and much less pressure on everyone. Even our TRs were noticing that they were hardly using any pots. So even after running CN many times, I still find out better ways of doing things.
@babass52
I personally didn't take "fight on" because I don't need it. But like I said before when it came to Heroic Feats, it is a matter of personal preference.
Regarding the boons, the 2% AP gain is insignificant. 700hp is also small, but it may be the difference dying/wipe and staying up.
The 10% stamina regen is probably good for other classes. I never had an issue with stamina in PvE. However, in PvP it may again be a life saver getting that teleport off just a split second faster. That 20 Power buff like you said maybe useful on trash, but still nothing significant or even noticeable as even at full 30x stacks, we're talking 24 extra weapon damage.
Copticone, how do you feel about the Eye of the Storm feature after how it was changed on NeverwinterPreview? Some people have made some rather glowing comments on how it's been performing with the latest balancing.
I've been pondering on its value in comparison to Chillling Presence. Chilling presence is, after all, at best a 6% damage increase on chilled opponents.
Copticone, how do you feel about the Eye of the Storm feature after how it was changed on NeverwinterPreview? Some people have made some rather glowing comments on how it's been performing with the latest balancing.
I've been pondering on its value in comparison to Chillling Presence. Chilling presence is, after all, at best a 6% damage increase on chilled opponents.
I haven't played around with the EotS on the preview server. Still, I really dislike feats that render stats useless when they proc. I really doesn't make a difference how the new EotS work, how often it procs, or how long it lasts. The bottom line is how many damage does it add overall? Doing short tests to see the rate of procs really doesn't say much. The simple and more practical test is to run a complete dungeon using each feature and see what the parse says.
Chilling Presence is 6% for the first rank. You forgot to add 2 more ranks for a potential total of 18%. It is safe to assume that it contributes to about 10% extra damage on a boss using CoI only, accounting for 3seconds where the chill effect would finish until CoI is available again. On trash it should be higher than that. So the question is, does the new EotS make up that difference over an entire run?
That said, I am more interested in EotS side effect, and that is to generate more AP through Critical Power. I would have to test this on full runs when the change goes live.
Comments
Using your updated build what T2 set would be most appropriate? Assuming that price is not a concern. I'm sure you probably answered this question somewhere in the thread, but, 46 pages is a lot to read. I'm also concerned that with everything changing as of late, any information I might find earlier in the thread could be outdated!
So basically, which set do you feel pairs best with this build?
The SW buff seems like it would be effective to some extent, but, I have no idea how effective it would be compared to HV. Also, the SW buff seems like it would be a pain in the *** to keep going all the time. Especially to take maximum advantage of it.
Just one last question though. Do we know if the HV set will continue to stack with other CW's who are currently using it? I mean once Feywild comes out.
At the end of the day I'm going to purchase HV set really soon. It costs a good bit less than SW and assuming I won't both sets I could always buy SW later on when I have more AD.
There are a few powers I'd like to hold up for contention, though.
Storm Pillar
I also have a tendency to prioritize the use of Chill Cloud while I have opponents clustered together (often atop icy terrain). Whenever I think of Storm Pillar is when there's generally only one target left. I thought of using it as an opener, but it felt counter-productive to aggro the mobs with an attack without making that be the chill-stacking Tabbed-Conduit of Ice.
So, overall, Chill Cloud seems to serve the need for an At-will that provides granular attacks, that I can stop midway to dodge, but get amply rewarded if I go through the full rotation. Often enough, I end up only having a single tougher opponent in a group surviving most of my powers... so I end up thinking that a single target at-will might be of greater value.
Magic Missile is fast and delivers good damage, and is semi-granular in the same fashion as Chill Cloud with a payoff at the end of its rotation.
Ray of Frost is likely the most granular At-will power we CWs have. To me, it feels like I can fire it off, and get something good at any point even if I have to suddenly dodge. Then, I'm free to channel the ray again if I so choose. It also has a fair level of synergy with [tab]CoI and Icy Terrain.
Shield
Now, the Shield spell and its contribution grows to feel like one of many drops in a sea. I typically find myself loathe to shield release to retain the protection (since I'm squishy and do get hit when using my powers up close - I can't dodge everything) and when I release, not that much of it seems worthwhile (it sometimes even seem detrimental, as I occasionally use the panic button to push enemies out of my Icy Terrain).
It sometimes feels like I'm just wasting my R on a passive power. I've been wondering if that was counter-productive and if I should change it. I figure people have a good reason to be attached to shield, but with the AP adjustment, maybe Shield is just not people valued it to be anymore. Maybe we're just keeping shield out of habit rather than because it makes sense now?
Usually, I find that Conduit of Ice, Icy Terrain, Steal Time and Chill Cloud rotations do a fairly good job as AoE tools go (around Rothe valley, anyhow). A bit like I commented for Storm Pillar, what I usually find myself missing is reliable single-target powers.
I've tried Ice Rays, but like Ray of Enfeeblement I find that power largely underwhelming. So, right now, I'm trying out Chill Strike - which feels like it has more decisive oomph, and the stun gives me a bit of breathing room for my cooldowns - time I usually spend pumping in Chill Cloud as much as possible (if I had Ray of Frost, I'd probably make more decisively sure that the mob stays frozen after the stun ends).
Ability Scores
Charisma gives more critical hit chance, and your build seems to be counting on that by investing in the Critical Power feat for a potential action point gain. But since the goal in taking the feat in the first place is gaining an extra percentile in Action Powers per power if that power ends up critting, I end up wondering...
Well... this build was about not taking gambles and choosing only sureshot bonuses, right? So, wouldn't a higher Wisdom grant a significant Action Point gain without depending on critting, or being on a 10 second timer in the first place?
My own dilemma rests mostly on starting my character on the 22nd with either Int/Cha or Int/Wis in priority. I can kind of see how people would think of critical hit chance possibly being more valuable by the smaller-spanning bonuses of Wisdom... but if you're trying to do criticals for the sake of gaining action points, wouldn't putting points more directly in the sole stat that hands out action point bonuses in the first place prove more fruitful?
WIS gives you 1% AP generation and 1% recharge speed. Recharge speed with current recharge formula diminishies itself: for 50% recharge speed you gain 33% shorter cooldown, for another 50% you gain only 17% cooldown. As for AP generation - it's minor addition to minor numbers and you will barely see any differences.
CHA is obvious choise for any wizard.
There is a reason why I didn't write the OP as a Guide. This is definitely not the "ideal" setup for solo play.
The point of Storm Pillar in the updated spec is to get the 10% buff, and generate more AP. Also with the change, it will refresh the chills, so you're not loosing anything if you replace a round of Chilling Cloud with Storm Pillar. As an opener, there are situations where you dont have a target in sight yet, like when someone runs ahead to pull. Having a full charged Storm Pillar ready gives you an instant "full round" of damage + the 10% buff for anything that follows, usually a CoI.
Shield while soloing is lackluster, and will be even more so with the new changes. But in a Dungeon encounter, its utility it undeniable, not to mention it's excellent AoE damage.
WIS vs Critical Power. Wisdom increase your AP gain by a percentage, while Critical Power gives you a flat 5% additional AP. In practice, I am seeing a huge difference, that I never saw when I had WIS maxed. For example, with Critical Power, my CoI is giving me 30% AP on the 3 target dummies.
What would you recomend to do with extra 3 points from human race. Im in a bit dilema to put 2 more points in Controling Action and then what to do with 1 point left or to put all 3 in Fight on and reduce cool time...and should I stick with Tempest magic as human?
As Human, I would probably put the 3 points in Focused Wizardry. With regards to Tempest Magic, it is up to you. Probably a good idea to make burning bosses at the end quicker.
Thank you
Preface: All tests were done with Conduit of Ice, Steal Time, Shield Pulse, Icy Terrain and Chilling Cloud. I did use copticones new feat spec, as linked in the OP.
Therefore I did three tests on Mimic.
1. How does the change from 20 cha/20 wis to 24 cha/16 wis impact the cooldown of the encounter powers: they went up around 800ms each, AP recharge gain went down by 4% (regarding the information from the character sheet)
For the following two tests I used the three dummies in the first room of the Trade of Blades. I intially charged up my Action Points with Storm Pillar, used one Daily to empty my action points and stopped the time how long it takes to be able to cast a daily again (using the above mentioned powers).
2. How does "Controlling Action" compare to "Fight On" in regards to Action Point gain: With three points in "Controlling Action" it took me about 25 seconds to be fully charged, and with the same three points in "Fight On" instead, it took me about 25 seconds as well.
3. In regards to "Critical Power", is "Chillings Presence" or "Eye of the Storm" better for Action Point gain: With "Chilling Presence" it always took me around 25 seconds to regain a full Action Point dice. With "Eye of the Storm" it took between 23 and 27 seconds.
I'm curious if someone does know if "Controlling Action" does scale up with more targets--I wouldn't think so regarding the tooltip.
Take care,
Urbs
Sure. Although I wouldn't really call it a guide, but more of an End-Game spec.
Thank you for the feedback.
My philosophy is to strike a balance that fits my playstyle. I am sure someone can squeeze some extra AP gain with a certain setup. I prefer to maximize my dps but have the AP gain that gives me enough Singularities to get the job done. I totally believe that CWs are the least gear dependent of all the classes. All you really need is to reach certain minimum thresholds in your stats to get the job done. The rest is based on your skill and the spec/feats that matches your playstyle.
I just came out of 3 back to back CN runs, 2 of which we had to pug the last spot. One shotted Draco all three times. I actually thought I had excess AP gain, and that's with Repel on Tab. The other CW also had Repel on Tab. During the punting phase, several times I had a singularity just wanting for the next Red Wizard to pop. So at this point, and with the recent tweak to my spec, I really don't see a need at all to have faster AP gain or lower CDs.
My only issue with the recent respec is that Storm Pillar seems to either been nerfed or bugged on the preview server. On the Live server however, I am really liking it.
Next tests, I'm going to do on Mimic are going to be aimed at maximizing damage output (with control). I'm currently looking for a good test szenario, as I prefer to be able to do my test without the need of others to tag along.
What difference do you recon on the Preview vs. the Live shard--as I don't have Storm Pillar on Live (I normally do not like channel-and-release powers).
Thanks for the response!
If the Storm Pillar that's on the Preview goes live as is, then I would switch back to Tempest Magic and take the points out of Destructive Wizardry.
That is not true, especially for people who don't own an Ioun Stone. HV is not always the best option.
If you use the build in this thread, and want the most damage, then you should slot Chilling Cloud and Storm Pillar... Magic Missile's 3 second debuff won't cut it. Stick feat points in the feat that increases damage when using Storm Pillar on more than one target. Fire off Storm Pillar to open and then use CoI because CoI is considered a DoT. DoT spells in this game take in to account your damage values on cast and maintain that damage through their duration. If you lose a damage buff while a DoT is running, then the spell won't lose any damage.
Storm Pillar will also buff Chilling Cloud damage for its' buff duration, assuming there is more than one target to hit. In summary, use Storm Pillar to open, make sure you get the 10% damage buff, then use your encounters.
THANK YOU for posting all of this information! I am so glad I found and read this thread. I understand this build is not optimal for leveling, but I do find it is working well so for the time being, I am sticking to it. I think I will do some testing at my level (40) and see how these At wills compare based on the feats I currently have.
Thanks again, everyone!
Yeah, the most recent Preview patch broke it again: the lingering pillar effect can no longer crit. The lingering pillar effect also could never proc, as far as I know. The second disadvantage was unfortunate but acceptable. The crit thing is not acceptable.
It's morbidly amusing that on the same day Eye of the Storm became a truly competitive substitute for Chilling Presence (in PvE), the developers also rendered the most likely AoE At-Will for Eye of the Storm builds (Renegades) completely incompatible with it. One step forward, and at least one step back.
Yes, but how will that be with the changes to shield? Or this was on test server that you ran cn with the changes.?
The CN runs were on Live. But I dont use EF on Tab. Instead I have Repel. And Shield is just there as backup or to push a Red Wizard away from the dragon. So I am not really using Shield as an AP regen, or at least I am not dependent on it. Critical Power seems to make a good difference. Most CN runs have at 2 CWs, and some even 3. If between the 2-3 CWs, they cant generate enough AP to alternate Singularities, then something is seriously wrong. I do however make use of Storm Pillar to generate AP when everything else is on CD.
Another spell I gave a try was Shard of the Endless Avalanche, which happens to get 3 points in this build - I figured, why not? Even though I heard it was frowned upon, I really enjoyed it when I first tried it out: it made Mount Hotenow's critter groups tons easier to deal with, was satisfyingly effective. It made me want to try taking 5 points in "Transcended Master" rather than "Nightmare Wizardry" just for a bit more power-swapping build diversity.
Mostly, I formed my boulder, used a tabbed-Chill Strike on the critter group, and then lobbed the boulder bowling-ball-style at the incoming. Then there'd be a huge explosion with 5000s hovering above poor broken corpses, and some nice AP gains. It was beautiful. xD
When it worked. The Shard tends to deal really badly with large opponents and bosses. Also, critter groups changed around Sharandar, and the Redcaps tended to be more spaced out, making it hard to get the boulder explosion, and they'd survive to rush and flank me, often nearly killing me. So, it kind of felt more like novelty at that point, and I abandoned the shard to entirely return to the specs of this build.
* * *
I know it might have been annoying to get a relative newbie experimentally piece together this Thaumaturgist build - sorry about that. I figured I was at least bumping your thread, though maybe I should've just started my own and made regular updates in it about what I was trying out.
However, as I experimented, I got to know a lot of wizard powers and often enough ended up returning to this build because it just plain worked - especially when PvE encounter difficulty ramps up around level 35+ and that you simply need to switch tactics because the mobs aren't going to fall down in a two spell combo anymore. It might require quaffing a potion here and there to make up with the risky up-close use of Icy Terrain and Steal Time, but this build never really gets overwhelmed (which, considering Sharandar's solo content, feels fairly relevant).
I still don't really have any 5-man dungeon experience, but at least now I've a fairly good idea of the Int/Cha Control Wizard I want to make coming August 22nd.
So, thanks Copticone. This is a pretty solid build you have here.
1) You don't take the feat "fight on" (encounter coldown reduced by 10%). Why?
2) With the new patch, you can have passives skills. Do you prefer 3% more live or 1,75% more AP? (I think 1,75% more AP)
3) Do you prefer 10% more stamina regeneration or 20 power on kill for 45 sec, stacks 30 times (it's a second passives skill with patch)? The first is usefull all time (even on boss) but 600 power is strong (but not on boss).
Thanks, and sorry for my English.
Thanks for the feedback with your experience. I definitely think there are quite a few combos still not being capitalized that are very interesting. For example, last night I did a couple of CN runs and decided to use Oppressive force as my main Daily, with Singularity as backup. We usually run 2xCW 2xTR 1xDC. So as CWs we are the "tanks" in CN. I would wait for the other CW to throw his singularity, then as soon as they drop to the group I followed with Oppressive Force. It was extremely effective and much less pressure on everyone. Even our TRs were noticing that they were hardly using any pots. So even after running CN many times, I still find out better ways of doing things.
@babass52
I personally didn't take "fight on" because I don't need it. But like I said before when it came to Heroic Feats, it is a matter of personal preference.
Regarding the boons, the 2% AP gain is insignificant. 700hp is also small, but it may be the difference dying/wipe and staying up.
The 10% stamina regen is probably good for other classes. I never had an issue with stamina in PvE. However, in PvP it may again be a life saver getting that teleport off just a split second faster. That 20 Power buff like you said maybe useful on trash, but still nothing significant or even noticeable as even at full 30x stacks, we're talking 24 extra weapon damage.
You will take what final boons? 10% more health with potion?
I've been pondering on its value in comparison to Chillling Presence. Chilling presence is, after all, at best a 6% damage increase on chilled opponents.
I haven't played around with the EotS on the preview server. Still, I really dislike feats that render stats useless when they proc. I really doesn't make a difference how the new EotS work, how often it procs, or how long it lasts. The bottom line is how many damage does it add overall? Doing short tests to see the rate of procs really doesn't say much. The simple and more practical test is to run a complete dungeon using each feature and see what the parse says.
Chilling Presence is 6% for the first rank. You forgot to add 2 more ranks for a potential total of 18%. It is safe to assume that it contributes to about 10% extra damage on a boss using CoI only, accounting for 3seconds where the chill effect would finish until CoI is available again. On trash it should be higher than that. So the question is, does the new EotS make up that difference over an entire run?
That said, I am more interested in EotS side effect, and that is to generate more AP through Critical Power. I would have to test this on full runs when the change goes live.