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  • xanthellxanthell Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    so i have a question. stacking recovery wont reduce the AS CD lower than 4-5 seconds? i mean i fell 2-3 seconds would be manageable, would it be possible to get it down to that? or am i mis judging the recovery reduction?
  • hyttehanshyttehans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 61
    edited June 2013
    I stole this from another post, thought it was relevant to our discussion here also: (guy is testing tier'2s on test server using queue)

    Group was DC, CW, GWF, GWF, TR

    Result: Complete disaster

    Aggro was noticeably less and yes I was running soothe, but I still ended up tanking more than half the mobs and getting beaten badly during the 5 second gap in AS coverage. Additionally the CW and the TR ended up tanking some mobs and so were taking much more damage than they would have on LIVE and getting crunched as a result.

    Group wiped on trash in Pirates a few times before we even got to the first boss and broke up in anger with one of the GWFs raging "$%#% HEAL!" spamming that a few times and then rage quitting. This was more than a bit ironic as he was only taking damage after myself and the CW were already dead.

    This change might work for static groups of people who are used to farming Castle Never, but I think it will be an abject disaster for the PUGs that make up the vast majority of the consumer base.
  • nymesis92nymesis92 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 270 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    hyttehans wrote: »
    I stole this from another post, thought it was relevant to our discussion here also: (guy is testing tier'2s on test server using queue)

    Group was DC, CW, GWF, GWF, TR

    Result: Complete disaster

    Aggro was noticeably less and yes I was running soothe, but I still ended up tanking more than half the mobs and getting beaten badly during the 5 second gap in AS coverage. Additionally the CW and the TR ended up tanking some mobs and so were taking much more damage than they would have on LIVE and getting crunched as a result.

    Group wiped on trash in Pirates a few times before we even got to the first boss and broke up in anger with one of the GWFs raging "$%#% HEAL!" spamming that a few times and then rage quitting. This was more than a bit ironic as he was only taking damage after myself and the CW were already dead.

    This change might work for static groups of people who are used to farming Castle Never, but I think it will be an abject disaster for the PUGs that make up the vast majority of the consumer base.

    Just sounds like some typical pug garbage, no organization, and no teamwork.
  • dullsmiledullsmile Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    In the future it might be nice to add a new character as healer (druid, shaman, paladin) and just re-balance the DC as damage prevention and/or DPS.
  • healsareophealsareop Member Posts: 155 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Obviously a crappy cleric or a non-cleric whining. This is not a small issue, this is huge. Astral must be infinite cast.
  • shelendilshelendil Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Anyone who has ever played a MMO seeks to find a Guild, one of like minded individuals who are all on the same page as far as skill, playing time, language and so on.

    Put in a little research and find a proper guild for your self so you can actually enjoy this game...because its a good game.

    I'm a well-skilled veteran MMO player. I've been in top-ranked guilds in various games for over 10 years. Right now I can successfully solo heal everything but CN given one CW that has the general idea of "control the adds." I fear these changes could make pugging very difficult, as are others.

    With Neverwinter, I am taking the more casual approach, as I can no longer dedicate a block of time during the evening to play. Instead I largely pug during EST afternoons, when I get European groups, and after 11pm EST, when I get west coast groups. The dungeon delves at varying times actually works well for me. However, nearly all guilds are oriented around playing 7pm-midnight for their most populous time zone. Advocating finding a guild as a solution to changes that negatively impact pugs is an overly-simplistic view of the situation. There are valid reasons for not being able to find a guild.
  • yultyult Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 181 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    2/10. Troll better next time.
  • yultyult Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 181 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    nymesis92 wrote: »
    My point is people will not be able to pull as many mobs as they are doing now because their will not be a 100% up time on AS. Groups are going to have to pull mobs conservatively rather then just pulling mass amounts of mobs and standing in AS.

    All you people saying WE don't have any other good healing spells....do you guys like not use anything but AS?
    Because trash pulls are the primary concern when discussing class balance.
  • unirodunirod Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 159 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    arlach wrote: »
    If you have nothing of worth to contribute, then don't.

    If you haven't run T2 dungeons as a DC, then obviously you won't know what the upcry is about.

    If you actually did read the reasons WHY DCs have issues (pve issues) of astral shield nerfs (duration, heal, cleanse), and how those nerfs will end up that you will be the one dying, then you might be able to understand.
    Astral shield is, and soon will be was, the only viable skill that DCs have to use in dungeons, simply because the rest of DC's encounters are next to useless in terms of keeping people alive.

    To all the non-DCs that don't care about AS nerf, don't complain when your party's DC can't keep you alive anymore after the patch, it's not their fault!

    So, you're saying the game is broken and unbalanced? DC skills are ALL useless but AS ? Sounds like a great game! Well balanced and thought through.
  • unspecifiederrorunspecifiederror Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 315 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    nymesis92 wrote: »
    Healing Word. I can heal someone for nearly 18k-20k if I wanted to cast all 3 uses on the same person, and in Divine mode it's a bigger one time heal.

    Once, every 45 seconds. Healing Word isn't effected by recovery and that "18k-20k" heal happens over about 5 seconds. You aren't saving anyone with that.
    nymesis92 wrote: »
    Soothing Light heals for a LOT.

    Now I know you're full of it. ~650 health per tick at about 3 ticks per second isn't going to save anyone either and hardly qualifies as "a LOT."


    Not to mention both of your proposed solutions seem to rely on lots of free divinity just hanging around.
  • kerlaakerlaa Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Needless to say I shall be shelving my DC (already have to a lesser extent due to ADD attraction) until the DC has been re-twicked to a more stable/consistent healer/buffer. I mean we are already a sub-par healer when compared to pots. I have been in 2 early T2 dungeon (with my CW alt) runs with nothing but CW&TR and still been able to pull out a win(though it was tougher and a great deal of pots was used).
  • normanoftharnormanofthar Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 39
    edited June 2013
    I enjoy the play smarter concept. I don't have a large guild and end up pugging a fair bit of content. I've successfully pugged CN with people taking my advice, etc.

    The problem with play smarter isn't me it is the four random strangers whom I've chosen to spend 30 mins to a couple hours with trying to do a DD run. The average person is just that, average. Fifty percent of any group is not as smart as the other fifty percent. Add the free to play in there and some players you get seem to be lucky to be using a keyboard much less getting out of the way of "red" and timing their abilities to interrupt NPC's.

    AS formally allowed me to save people who otherwise would fail, now it won't which means unless I want to spend a ton of pots/real money/etc I simply can't afford to go with any "average" group anymore which means long term I'll likely move on to another game. Some of you might be thinking "Great can I have your stuff?" but when decent players leave what's left behind will eventually force the devs to dumb down content (think other MMO's) which means even elitists leave due to how "easy" the game will become.

    Just a thought.
  • maukadwellermaukadweller Member Posts: 71
    edited June 2013
    nymesis92 wrote: »
    I stopped pugging at level 35 when I found out that this game does require a tad of communication and team work to accomplish certain dungeons. My deepest sympathies for you if you are still trying to pug.

    Yep. So clearly if you realize that others are not playing in set groups, stacked teams, etc, perhaps you should get off your high horse.

    And if you had to stop pugging at level 35 because pugging made things too difficult...well, I guess that just speaks for itself.
  • irk2013irk2013 Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    hyttehans wrote: »
    ill predict the future for you :) people that pug & casual gamers, will cry about queue times beeing even worse with the changes to cleric, and with good reason! who would want to sit and wait for 2 clerics showing up for 1hour+

    A typical DPS response..... They don't want to roll a Cleric yet they sure in the heck want to complain when Clerics don't want to pug anymore.
  • lltsnwnlltsnwn Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 787 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    nymesis92 wrote: »
    This butthurt over a 4-5 seconds loss of downtime on AS?

    Oh god...we can't chain pull the entire dungeon anymore..better uninstall the game and make 400 threads crying about how AS is destroyed. Please get real.

    Is there some point to this thread? /shrug
    12.jpgRanger.jpg
  • irk2013irk2013 Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I enjoy the play smarter concept. I don't have a large guild and end up pugging a fair bit of content. I've successfully pugged CN with people taking my advice, etc.

    The problem with play smarter isn't me it is the four random strangers whom I've chosen to spend 30 mins to a couple hours with trying to do a DD run. The average person is just that, average. Fifty percent of any group is not as smart as the other fifty percent. Add the free to play in there and some players you get seem to be lucky to be using a keyboard much less getting out of the way of "red" and timing their abilities to interrupt NPC's.

    AS formally allowed me to save people who otherwise would fail, now it won't which means unless I want to spend a ton of pots/real money/etc I simply can't afford to go with any "average" group anymore which means long term I'll likely move on to another game. Some of you might be thinking "Great can I have your stuff?" but when decent players leave what's left behind will eventually force the devs to dumb down content (think other MMO's) which means even elitists leave due to how "easy" the game will become.

    Just a thought.

    Well of course you would call yourself a decent player who wouldn't but are you REALLY? Yes I have had a FEW instances where you get people who for whatever reason cant follow directions, but around 85% of the time if I explain something they do listen and we get through.
  • lyaiselyaise Member Posts: 491 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Yep. So clearly if you realize that others are not playing in set groups, stacked teams, etc, perhaps you should get off your high horse.

    And if you had to stop pugging at level 35 because pugging made things too difficult...well, I guess that just speaks for itself.

    Down Tiger - the message here is more about Pug groups. I'd suggest many healers have been in pugs that don't do what you'd like them to, what's needed to avoid getting blitzed. Sometimes you can get away with it, other times not - we all know the randomness of pugs.

    With the Cleric changes being trialed it looks like the healer will be more reliant on other classes doing what they should. But pugs being what they are, the Cleric changes may make it a lot less forgiving on other players - leading to more wipes, frustration, group quitting.
    For a casual ftp game this just doesn't make good sense.
    Soon it will be not as much about the healer - more the group - although of course the healer will get the usual comments.

    If we don't say anything now, then other classes might not be aware of what's happened to the Cleric. Pugging could become extremely painful, often.

    "So don't pug then" could be your answer........
    ......which is precisely what the poster has decided.
    ...............vote for your favourite expansion..........
    "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
    ..............not this one then.............
  • morsitansmorsitans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,284 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    lyaise wrote: »
    ......which is precisely what the poster has decided.

    Back when they were level 35, no less. :p
    Staying power ftw, it seems!
  • tursiotursio Member Posts: 69
    edited June 2013
    lyaise,

    I don't understand why you seem to be arguing that the game should be easy enough that even PUGs that put no thought into protecting their healer should be able to win it. The game is casual, but do you really believe every tier of its content needs to be that casual? 'Cause that sounds like what you're arguing, and I don't understand why.

    As for me? No, I really don't want my PUG to succeed if the other players are sufficiently oblivious that they're letting me die all the time. I want other players to learn to pay attention to what's going on in fights so that we can end up with a playerbase that understands basic tactics and can share in the simulated experience of protecting each other from things that want to hurt us, and feeling rewarded when we cut down that add that was about to put our comrade to death. That's so much of what makes group PvE games fun for me (and for many, many people) that I don't understand where people get off on wanting one or two classes to be strong enough to carry unskilled and inattentive play.

    You seemed to be saying earlier, in effect, that I'm being harsh on newbies -- I'm not. But I'm calling bad play what it is: bad play. Newbies are considered newbies in part because they haven't learned the difference between bad play and good play yet. And why would they? They haven't been around very long. In large part it's understandable. But the current AS is so strong and so dependable that it masks way too many mistakes and lets people get away with very unskilled and unsociable behavior. (In most situations, the only other person in the party that has to care about the cleric's safety at the moment is the CW.)

    Ever get into a PUG with teammates who will spam "HELP!" if they are downed, but then later won't pay enough attention to come help you up if you go down? Yeah, I'm looking forward to these changes forcing such players to actually think about their parties a bit instead of just selfishly expecting everyone to carry them when they make mistakes while not needing to help anyone else.

    And yes, I do trust that the other classes (particularly GF/GWF) are being given the tools they need to actually give the help that's going to be required -- assuming they play well. I also trust that if the tools they're provided really aren't sufficient, Cryptic will patch in more tools so that they can. But this rebalancing of the burden of the party's survival definitely needs to happen, imo.
  • maukadwellermaukadweller Member Posts: 71
    edited June 2013
    tursio wrote: »
    lyaise,

    I don't understand why you seem to be arguing that the game should be easy enough that even PUGs that put no thought into protecting their healer should be able to win it. The game is casual, but do you really believe every tier of its content needs to be that casual? 'Cause that sounds like what you're arguing, and I don't understand why.

    As for me? No, I really don't want my PUG to succeed if the other players are sufficiently oblivious that they're letting me die all the time. I want other players to learn to pay attention to what's going on in fights so that we can end up with a playerbase that understands basic tactics and can share in the simulated experience of protecting each other from things that want to hurt us, and feeling rewarded when we cut down that add that was about to put our comrade to death. That's so much of what makes group PvE games fun for me (and for many, many people) that I don't understand where people get off on wanting one or two classes to be strong enough to carry unskilled and inattentive play.

    You seemed to be saying earlier, in effect, that I'm being harsh on newbies -- I'm not. But I'm calling bad play what it is: bad play. Newbies are considered newbies in part because they haven't learned the difference between bad play and good play yet. And why would they? They haven't been around very long. In large part it's understandable. But the current AS is so strong and so dependable that it masks way too many mistakes and lets people get away with very unskilled and unsociable behavior. (In most situations, the only other person in the party that has to care about the cleric's safety at the moment is the CW.)

    Ever get into a PUG with teammates who will spam "HELP!" if they are downed, but then later won't pay enough attention to come help you up if you go down? Yeah, I'm looking forward to these changes forcing such players to actually think about their parties a bit instead of just selfishly expecting everyone to carry them when they make mistakes while not needing to help anyone else.

    And yes, I do trust that the other classes (particularly GF/GWF) are being given the tools they need to actually give the help that's going to be required -- assuming they play well. I also trust that if the tools they're provided really aren't sufficient, Cryptic will patch in more tools so that they can. But this rebalancing of the burden of the party's survival definitely needs to happen, imo.

    How does GF/GWF getting more tools help the cleric in PvP?
  • tursiotursio Member Posts: 69
    edited June 2013
    Are you implying clerics are bad off in PvP or something?

    I see that sentiment every now and then and have no idea why people think it. A cleric plus any other character in the game (but especially a GF) is just about the biggest point-control-denying brick imaginable, requiring a huge investment of team resources to dislodge.

    If you genuinely think clerics are underpowered in PvP or are going to be such after the Astral change, then I don't really know what to tell you.

    PvP in general is way out of whack though, and these changes don't even begin to scratch the surface of how much tweaking PvP is going to need before it's balanced. xD
  • nymesis92nymesis92 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 270 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Why would I continue to pug dungeons while leveling up and waste my time? Dungeon XP is terrible, 98% of the people I'll be grouped with are terrible, the gear is not going to mean anything because I'm going to out level it in a few quest lines so it does not benefit me at all to pug a dungeon while leveling up and waste hours of my time.
    Once, every 45 seconds. Healing Word isn't effected by recovery and that "18k-20k" heal happens over about 5 seconds. You aren't saving anyone with that.



    Now I know you're full of it. ~650 health per tick at about 3 ticks per second isn't going to save anyone either and hardly qualifies as "a LOT."


    Not to mention both of your proposed solutions seem to rely on lots of free divinity just hanging around.

    Your not properly spec'd right if you are having ANY trouble keeping plenty of divine up.
  • griennegrienne Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    nymesis92 wrote: »
    Why would I continue to pug dungeons while leveling up and waste my time? Dungeon XP is terrible, 98% of the people I'll be grouped with are terrible, the gear is not going to mean anything because I'm going to out level it in a few quest lines so it does not benefit me at all to pug a dungeon while leveling up and waste hours of my time.



    Your not properly spec'd right if you are having ANY trouble keeping plenty of divine up.

    You have not given any real healing rotations etc. At all. Frankly healing word is not enough and given the action oriented nature of the add swarm it is not a reliable heal spell.

    You can say to run with a guild, but to act as if that is an acceptable response for a game geared towards the public is ignorant at best.

    Furthermore. Soothing light is sub par.

    Bastion of Health ..... lol.....lol....no seriously....lol.

    Hallowed Ground, true status but its a significant heal and with relatively constant up time during the important fights, but it isn't enough obviously.


    The fact is that the AS nerf was needed (double stacking) I can even accept the CD change, but they need to replace those missing times with something useful. Perhaps adjusting feat distribution etc. People play this class to be an active healer, and the fact is they aren't.
  • dootudootu Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 58
    edited June 2013
    Is this TROLOLOL thread still going?.
  • aladnisaladnis Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    nymesis92 wrote: »
    This butthurt over a 4-5 seconds loss of downtime on AS?

    Oh god...we can't chain pull the entire dungeon anymore..better uninstall the game and make 400 threads crying about how AS is destroyed. Please get real.
    This qualifies as trolling. Which is against the forum rules.

    Thanks for posting, though.
    Fletchette F. Fletch
    newbie rogue extraordinaire
  • silestesileste Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    nymesis92 wrote: »

    Your not properly spec'd right if you are having ANY trouble keeping plenty of divine up.

    You should really know something about the person you quoted.
    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?314631-Guide-to-Everything-Cleric-What-you-need-to-know-have-to-solo-heal-everything-PvE

    I seriously don't believe you even have a cleric, at least not pass 30+ anyway.

    aladnis wrote: »
    This qualifies as trolling. Which is against the forum rules.

    Thanks for posting, though.

    I'm surprised mods let this thread stay up so long. Seriously need more mods to control these forums or something. I'd hate to see forum spammers again like yesterday.

    Never really cared what they did to AS. I already predicted that since everyone was crying nerf, they'd do more then stop the stacking of it. I only want them to get rid of Righteousness or lower the -40% and make some of our other healing skills not so useless.
    NWDC-2_zps52f863ab.png
  • shad99shad99 Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    irk2013 wrote: »
    Well of course you would call yourself a decent player who wouldn't but are you REALLY? Yes I have had a FEW instances where you get people who for whatever reason cant follow directions, but around 85% of the time if I explain something they do listen and we get through.

    This is tons of fun when my only dungeon delve time after I get home from work (& before I have to go to sleep here on the east coast of the US) is the prime time late night for europe. Half my group in a typical pug doesn't even speak or type passable english. I may speak a bit of 6 languages personally, but I don't speak them all... Sadly NW doesn't seem to want to let me translate via google and copy + paste either... So what is one to do? Wait until the midnight EST dungeon delve so I can hit PST prime time and be half asleep?

    And I'm in a guild, but only half the guild can play regularly and so we keep hemorrhaging anyone who hits lvl 60. I had my fill of big guild where I'm lucky if I know anyone ten years ago and I certainly cannot stand the elitism the 'pro' guilds have. I've been in a few, it just never felt fun. I play MMOs to have fun. If I'm not having fun then I stop playing.
    tursio wrote: »
    Are you implying clerics are bad off in PvP or something?

    I see that sentiment every now and then and have no idea why people think it. A cleric plus any other character in the game (but especially a GF) is just about the biggest point-control-denying brick imaginable, requiring a huge investment of team resources to dislodge.

    That pairing works fine until someone gets smart and takes out the healer. A T2 tank healer could make this work on live right now until a CW got involved (I've been that CW many times) and focused on the DC while dodging the GF until the DC died. Most GF's then decided to flee. If not I would take them as well.

    Pn the preview server it's even sillier... A CW/TR/GF/GWF can simply wait for AS to end, pound the DC to death (preferably with holds/stuns/knockdowns/dazes to keep them from recasting AS when it comes back up). As a DC in PvP on the preview server I couldn't even stay alive as everyone realized I was an easy kill in the gaps. At least one GWF spent the entire game hunting me down as soon as possible after leaving the campsite.
  • nymesis92nymesis92 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 270 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    sileste wrote: »
    You should really know something about the person you quoted.
    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?314631-Guide-to-Everything-Cleric-What-you-need-to-know-have-to-solo-heal-everything-PvE

    I seriously don't believe you even have a cleric, at least not pass 30+ anyway.




    I'm surprised mods let this thread stay up so long. Seriously need more mods to control these forums or something. I'd hate to see forum spammers again like yesterday.

    Never really cared what they did to AS. I already predicted that since everyone was crying nerf, they'd do more then stop the stacking of it. I only want them to get rid of Righteousness or lower the -40% and make some of our other healing skills not so useless.

    So you don't think I play a Cleric? Like seriously?

    You think I'm going to read some guide from someone who is having trouble keeping divine power up? Nope.jpg
  • sirxluissirxluis Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    ive soloed karrundax in the nw server and ive soloed karrundax in the test server... i do see tho a really big diferene i would normally take no dmg in the normal server and in the preview server im forced to always use a pot on every rotation i literally wasted all my gold xD also made me proc soulforged a few times so idk how this patch will affect less skilled / geared players

    #worth
  • unspecifiederrorunspecifiederror Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 315 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    nymesis92 wrote: »
    So you don't think I play a Cleric? Like seriously?

    You think I'm going to read some guide from someone who is having trouble keeping divine power up? Nope.jpg

    I don't remember saying I have problems keeping Divine Power up. I can fuel 2 spells in divine mode without a lot of problems unless it's a kite heavy fight.

    But you seem to think Healing Word and Soothing Light are good... Your ignorance is showing.
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