How old are you? Lmao. What other balances? I am complaining about this certain class and I own all classes, I think most of the patch notes and balancing was fine but cleric is broken. You my friend, need to learn to read.
There's a patch note, and i think his age is irrelevant to the topics.
Timing, coordination. Tanks will have to draw aggro and toss up their mitigation skills when the shield is up. Wizards will have to time their control when AS is about to go down. Rogues will have to smokescreen if Wizards can't Black Hole in time. You know, party mechanics.
Let me rephrase. The party can no longer stand in one spot only doing damage while the DC is healing. The party now has to actually pick up the slack when the DC is waiting for cooldowns.
yea - still heal, buff, debuff, remove debuff nothing change, oh there is a change, GF now is cover up in adds and tanking boss at the same time, GWF which AoE need to go forward instead of just cleaning outside boss area, need a good teamwork which can be gained through guild or friends, queue? I dont think so. also, on party dungeon cleric perhaps can survive the nerf, but in the solo quest, all thing is different, companion perhaps has higher damage but become easy to kill. my rank 15 man-at-arms can hold up to 3 enemies at my level or lower and myself holding 5 to 6. now? well, from the test server experience 3 is the best I can try, so no solo on cleric? is that it?
God the only reason I play this game is that there are no tanks...accidentally that role is broken and I really like it as it is...The idea of having tanks holding agro is just so old it is really going backward in terms of innovation.
Anyways...If the changes make it impossible for a group to run an instance without a GF a DC and 3 dps, then well, might as well call it a WoW clone.
there is a way of playing cleric as a damage dealer after the patch, it is not like cleric would be unplayable. but still, where the part of "taking role"? no support n' healing? just lets go all do DPS? even TR is lost his assassinate skill, there no more Master Assassinate here, infiltrator only, where is this game about to going to is far from D&D it self
Please, giving more threat and more heal is dumbing down the game and is going far more away from D&D and closer to WoW. You "assume" you will need the same amount healing to do while the mechanic has been changed. It sounds like a 12/12/2012 end of the world assumption to me. People will adapt their gameplay, the same way they did when they all went dps spec because no survivability was needed.
yea - still heal, buff, debuff, remove debuff nothing change, oh there is a change, GF now is cover up in adds and tanking boss at the same time, GWF which AoE need to go forward instead of just cleaning outside boss area, need a good teamwork which can be gained through guild or friends, queue? I dont think so. also, on party dungeon cleric perhaps can survive the nerf, but in the solo quest, all thing is different, companion perhaps has higher damage but become easy to kill. my rank 15 man-at-arms can hold up to 3 enemies at my level or lower and myself holding 5 to 6. now? well, from the test server experience 3 is the best I can try, so no solo on cleric? is that it?
All game with a good end-game content requires people to play well their characters and need to be able to communicate, either with friend or inside a guild, how's bad? When you realize how Castle Never is trivial and easy compared to other mmo capstone, it's not like more communication/teamplay will kill the game or make it impossible. And why all of sudden we talk about balance in solo quest ? it's like a week at max, and i leveled my cleric 60 without using AS in solo quest perfectly fine...
God the only reason I play this game is that there are no tanks...accidentally that role is broken and I really like it as it is...The idea of having tanks holding agro is just so old it is really going backward in terms of innovation.
Anyways...If the changes make it impossible for a group to run an instance without a GF a DC and 3 dps, then well, might as well call it a WoW clone.
I hate to admit that "wow clone" part which is make the game like any other MMO, but forcing 1 style of playing classes is definitely not D&D style. if you look at Guardian Fighter power and feat it is not design to tank, help in tank yes but not main purposes. it is a fighter, only it bring shield. the paragon is Iron Vanguard not really a defender type too, it have so many attack encounter.
I hate to admit that "wow clone" part which is make the game like any other MMO, but forcing 1 style of playing classes is definitely not D&D style. if you look at Guardian Fighter power and feat it is not design to tank, help in tank yes but not main purposes. it is a fighter, only it bring shield. the paragon is Iron Vanguard not really a defender type too, it have so many attack encounter.
You complain about the change that makes the game different with a different mechanic where teamwork is needed and people have to do their role first and dps second. What's the issue?
I don't understand your logic, and if you open your D&D PHB at p.86, you will see a the iron vanguard paragon path as a defender paragon path. Sorry it's not aimed at yourself, but your opinion is totally off, contradicting and stupid.
I don't believe in the GF modification either, but we speak about DC, and i don't see an issue here.
Please, giving more threat and more heal is dumbing down the game and is going far more away from D&D and closer to WoW. You "assume" you will need the same amount healing to do while the mechanic has been changed. It sounds like a 12/12/2012 end of the world assumption to me. People will adapt their gameplay, the same way they did when they all went dps spec because no survivability was needed.
assume it yes, doomsday? I dont think so, people will adapt on gameplay, yes, 1 style only a uniform build, D&D is more about custom playstyle, thats why not the entire skill we can use at a time, I already said in different thread, I can accept lower healing or reduce uptime but doing both will kill the support type cleric and "survivability" is nothing to do with this
All game with a good end-game content requires people to play well their characters and need to be able to communicate, either with friend or inside a guild, how's bad? When you realize how Castle Never is trivial and easy compared to other mmo capstone, it's not like more communication/teamplay will kill the game or make it impossible. And why all of sudden we talk about balance in solo quest ? it's like a week at max, and i leveled my cleric 60 without using AS in solo quest perfectly fine...
if uniform build system is the way it done then yes, less communication will not make things harder, but let me say again. will the game become another stereotype MMO which have special build or rather become D&D style which can custom class to how the player want the class to be played.
The vital point in all this mess, I think, is that while the patch notes read as ham-fisted and poorly-planned clusternerfs, that might just be an impression. The reality could be different. Also, don't forget that Cryptic's track record with fixing things isn't exactly perfect, so take nothing at face value. Measure twice, cut once.
It the wait is driving you nuts, you could jump onto the testing shard and see what's up for yourself. I copied my character over earlier, and am patching up now, and want to take a look. It's an option for anyone else struggling with morbid curiosity, or who is finding the wild speculation unsatisfactory.
Just a thought, for the people who want to spend time getting some solid answers.
Personally I think people are looking at this wrong.
Astral Shield should not be the single crutch that is holding the cleric class up, period.
Honestly it is lame to be like 'ok, everyone stand in this circle 24/7.' Combat should be mobile and dynamic or its all just boring tank and spank fights.
What needs to happen is an improvement in the rest of the abilities so a cleric is not forced to be an AS bot.
Instead of crying about AS, people should be asking for buffs to the class as a whole so that it can actually perform as a healer.
Anyhow, the way I see it, with the current class selection a group line up should function like this.
GF and TR on boss. GF tanking and absorbing the big hits with block, the TR doing the DPS.
GWF and CW on the adds. GWF tanking and dps them, CW keeping adds in check so the GWF doesn't get overwhelmed.
DC using AOE heals to keep everyone alive.
The problem is the game is not functioning properly.
I do not think it's supposed to be "ok guys, everyone stand in my pretty blue circle 24/7 so we don't need fighters"
assume it yes, doomsday? I dont think so, people will adapt on gameplay, yes, 1 style only a uniform build, D&D is more about custom playstyle, thats why not the entire skill we can use at a time, I already said in different thread, I can accept lower healing or reduce uptime but doing both will kill the support type cleric and "survivability" is nothing to do with this
if uniform build system is the way it done then yes, less communication will not make things harder, but let me say again. will the game become another stereotype MMO which have special build or rather become D&D style which can custom class to how the player want the class to be played.
ok so the AS faithful build cleric / conqueror dps tank / renegade wizard / executioner rogue are not the uniform build and only functional build as we speak right now. I don't see how making dps less mandatory and harder to acquire if you need to fit your role will make the game more uniform than we speak right now where the only optimization or build necessary is Cleric with AS (2 is better) and 4 optimized dps no matter the class.
At least doing something different will be rewarding and maybe more useful to clear dungeons.
Sorry i won't lose time anymore with this whining garbage contradicting topic. I said my opinion, i don't need to convince people.
You can return queuing double AS DC in CN and enjoy the variety of build this game offers presently, as it will "surely" become a WoW clone soon with unique theorycrafting and unique way to play your role instead of being a... dps in a blue circle with other dps? ...
Personally I think people are looking at this wrong.
Astral Shield should not be the single crutch that is holding the cleric class up, period.
Honestly it is lame to be like 'ok, everyone stand in this circle 24/7.' Combat should be mobile and dynamic or its all just boring tank and spank fights.
What needs to happen is an improvement in the rest of the abilities so a cleric is not forced to be an AS bot.
Instead of crying about AS, people should be asking for buffs to the class as a whole so that it can actually perform as a healer.
Anyhow, the way I see it, with the current class selection a group line up should function like this.
GF and TR on boss. GF tanking and absorbing the big hits with block, the TR doing the DPS.
GWF and CW on the adds. GWF tanking and dps them, CW keeping adds in check so the GWF doesn't get overwhelmed.
DC using AOE heals to keep everyone alive.
The problem is the game is not functioning properly.
I do not think it's supposed to be "ok guys, everyone stand in my pretty blue circle 24/7 so we don't need fighters"
GF can't actually do that, it has to run around just as every other class, shield is just for show.
I wouldn't say that... But I can at least understand his point.
Why are they nerfing the duration and healing of AS. It's challenging enough as it is to keep a group up. Are they buffing other skills to offset this nerf? Seeing as how the Cleric didn't really need a nerf in the first place, besides the stacking.... I don't get it. Who has been complaining that the shields were OP?
Personally I think people are looking at this wrong.
Astral Shield should not be the single crutch that is holding the cleric class up, period.
Honestly it is lame to be like 'ok, everyone stand in this circle 24/7.' Combat should be mobile and dynamic or its all just boring tank and spank fights.
What needs to happen is an improvement in the rest of the abilities so a cleric is not forced to be an AS bot.
Instead of crying about AS, people should be asking for buffs to the class as a whole so that it can actually perform as a healer.
We've been bringing these issues up since... forever.
REMOVE righteousness (or at least reduce it to something passable like 20%).
Reduce the CD on Bastion of health. Currently it's ridiculously long and heals for ridiculously little.
Make healing word heal all teammates. With the current mobswarm during boss fights, it's pretty **** hard to aim it to the right person, and even if we do heal the correct person, it heals not a whole lot, and it's heal over time rather than instant.
People cry about AS because it was all we had, and now they want to take that away too.
Tried out a few runs in test shard using cleric, things not looking too good so far. Some dungeons (looking at you, spider queen) are almost unable to be solo healed without using some pretty epic gear (and if one were, what's the point of running those dungeons?).
Wow.. i was already close to quitting the game, and i expected the stacking nerf, but 66% uptime? really?
Yeah if that happens, don't expect to see me on anymore.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Clerics will run solo now because another Cleric will need to make way for a Guardian Fighter tank. The new meta will have Guardian Fighter generating enough threat under the influence of Astral Shield and Healing Words to stay alive. Thereafter, all the mobs will be on the GF and the DC will cast Forgemaster (Divinity Mode) on an elite the Tank is on to heal the tank. We just need competent tanks who know how to mark their targets and generate threat whenever new adds spawn. Maybe you will see better teamwork where CW will singularity all the adds and have GF pick them up to tank.
Please do realize that once upon a time, Clerics are meant to be fragile healers. In WOW, healing classes like Priests, Druids, Shamans and Paladins are optimized to dish out tons of healing and die in 1-2 hits even from the lowest of minions. The Tank, Healer & DPS trinity is non-existent in this game. I play a Devoted Cleric with full T2 and even in Castle Never Epic, I initiate fights and tank adds with Astral Shield and Forgemaster. These changes to cleric clearly indicates the trinity meta is clearly what the developers originally intend for Neverwinter Online.
Comparing to other MMORPGs like WOW, potions are limited by only cooldown which is actually abusive. If you think the game is really getting too difficult, nobody is forcing you to play a free to play game. And honestly, dungeon raids in WOW are much much much more complex and require more teamwork and coordination.
Please do realize that once upon a time, Clerics are meant to be fragile healers. In WOW, healing classes like Priests, Druids, Shamans and Paladins are optimized to dish out tons of healing and die in 1-2 hits even from the lowest of minions. The Tank, Healer & DPS trinity is non-existent in this game. I play a Devoted Cleric with full T2 and even in Castle Never Epic, I initiate fights and tank adds with Astral Shield and Forgemaster. These changes to cleric clearly indicates the trinity meta is clearly what the developers originally intend for Neverwinter Online.
Never was the case for D&D. D&D clerics are the rush in with mace and shield type, bashing undead skeleton's skulls in while bringing (holy-based) bonuses to your party members simultaneously
Never was the case for D&D. D&D clerics are the rush in with mace and shield type, bashing undead skeleton's skulls in while bringing (holy-based) bonuses to your party members simultaneously
He is obviously new to the cleric concept in D&D and is the standard MMO player.
Please do realize that once upon a time, Clerics are meant to be fragile healers. In WOW, healing classes like Priests, Druids, Shamans and Paladins are optimized to dish out tons of healing and die in 1-2 hits even from the lowest of minions. The Tank, Healer & DPS trinity is non-existent in this game. I play a Devoted Cleric with full T2 and even in Castle Never Epic, I initiate fights and tank adds with Astral Shield and Forgemaster. These changes to cleric clearly indicates the trinity meta is clearly what the developers originally intend for Neverwinter Online.
Yes...Because WoW was the *first* MMO.
This was hardly the case for EQ. Clerics were just as good as any of the plate classes (warrior, Paladin, SK) for 'taking the hits' The reason you placed them at ranged was so that they wouldn't get hit, not that they couldn't. You didn't want to spend resources healing a cleric when the focus should be on healing the tank.
Vanguard also had a similar outlook. Clerics wore plate and actually had abilities that DEMANDED you be in melee and hitting the mob shoulder to shoulder with the tanks (two of your buffs were combat buffs, increasing STR CON and DEX for 5 mins, and the other was increased damage and crit).
DDO also had tank-like clerics who wore plate and was as good, if not better than paladins or fighters.
Rift had clerics that could TANK, or be tanky yet still heal effectively. It wasn't so that they'd tank the raid boss, but it was so that they could take a hit or two before pulling healing resources off the tank and to themselves.
You're assumption that clerics are ranged squishies in ALL games is wrong, and based on a *limited* market of MMO's out there. WoW is not a standard, except for how 'popular' it is.
This is all true, but in 4th edition a Devoted Cleric is meant to emulate the type of cleric that supports their party from the back-lines and focuses on ranged combat. Battle Clerics are the ones that get up in your face and swing around a mace while healing their allies.
Never was the case for D&D. D&D clerics are the rush in with mace and shield type, bashing undead skeleton's skulls in while bringing (holy-based) bonuses to your party members simultaneously
someone with common sense and the ability to see how different games approached things differently. I like you
This is all true, but in 4th edition a Devoted Cleric is meant to emulate the type of cleric that supports their party from the back-lines and focuses on ranged combat. Battle Clerics are the ones that get up in your face and swing around a mace while healing their allies.
yea and a good majority thought 4E sucked that's why WoTC is already working on 5E, guess what this game is starting to suck...
yea and a good majority thought 4E sucked that's why WoTC is already working on 5E, guess what this game is starting to suck...
You'd have a point of this kind of distinction were unique to 4e, but it's not. Devoted and Battle are just official names given to different types of clerics that players made on their own in previous editions. Clerics COULD run up to the front lines and bash heads in 2e and 3.5 if you played or built your character that way. They could also focus on improving their casting ability if they wanted to. Devoted Clerics are built towards standing in the back and being castery, in the same way that Guardian Fighters are built to use a shield, and Trickster Rogues can't pick up a bow. We're not Battle Clerics, that'll be a separate class when/if it releases.
Comments
There's a patch note, and i think his age is irrelevant to the topics.
yea - still heal, buff, debuff, remove debuff nothing change, oh there is a change, GF now is cover up in adds and tanking boss at the same time, GWF which AoE need to go forward instead of just cleaning outside boss area, need a good teamwork which can be gained through guild or friends, queue? I dont think so. also, on party dungeon cleric perhaps can survive the nerf, but in the solo quest, all thing is different, companion perhaps has higher damage but become easy to kill. my rank 15 man-at-arms can hold up to 3 enemies at my level or lower and myself holding 5 to 6. now? well, from the test server experience 3 is the best I can try, so no solo on cleric? is that it?
Anyways...If the changes make it impossible for a group to run an instance without a GF a DC and 3 dps, then well, might as well call it a WoW clone.
Please, giving more threat and more heal is dumbing down the game and is going far more away from D&D and closer to WoW. You "assume" you will need the same amount healing to do while the mechanic has been changed. It sounds like a 12/12/2012 end of the world assumption to me. People will adapt their gameplay, the same way they did when they all went dps spec because no survivability was needed.
All game with a good end-game content requires people to play well their characters and need to be able to communicate, either with friend or inside a guild, how's bad? When you realize how Castle Never is trivial and easy compared to other mmo capstone, it's not like more communication/teamplay will kill the game or make it impossible. And why all of sudden we talk about balance in solo quest ? it's like a week at max, and i leveled my cleric 60 without using AS in solo quest perfectly fine...
I hate to admit that "wow clone" part which is make the game like any other MMO, but forcing 1 style of playing classes is definitely not D&D style. if you look at Guardian Fighter power and feat it is not design to tank, help in tank yes but not main purposes. it is a fighter, only it bring shield. the paragon is Iron Vanguard not really a defender type too, it have so many attack encounter.
You complain about the change that makes the game different with a different mechanic where teamwork is needed and people have to do their role first and dps second. What's the issue?
I don't understand your logic, and if you open your D&D PHB at p.86, you will see a the iron vanguard paragon path as a defender paragon path. Sorry it's not aimed at yourself, but your opinion is totally off, contradicting and stupid.
I don't believe in the GF modification either, but we speak about DC, and i don't see an issue here.
assume it yes, doomsday? I dont think so, people will adapt on gameplay, yes, 1 style only a uniform build, D&D is more about custom playstyle, thats why not the entire skill we can use at a time, I already said in different thread, I can accept lower healing or reduce uptime but doing both will kill the support type cleric and "survivability" is nothing to do with this
if uniform build system is the way it done then yes, less communication will not make things harder, but let me say again. will the game become another stereotype MMO which have special build or rather become D&D style which can custom class to how the player want the class to be played.
It the wait is driving you nuts, you could jump onto the testing shard and see what's up for yourself. I copied my character over earlier, and am patching up now, and want to take a look. It's an option for anyone else struggling with morbid curiosity, or who is finding the wild speculation unsatisfactory.
Just a thought, for the people who want to spend time getting some solid answers.
Astral Shield should not be the single crutch that is holding the cleric class up, period.
Honestly it is lame to be like 'ok, everyone stand in this circle 24/7.' Combat should be mobile and dynamic or its all just boring tank and spank fights.
What needs to happen is an improvement in the rest of the abilities so a cleric is not forced to be an AS bot.
Instead of crying about AS, people should be asking for buffs to the class as a whole so that it can actually perform as a healer.
Anyhow, the way I see it, with the current class selection a group line up should function like this.
GF and TR on boss. GF tanking and absorbing the big hits with block, the TR doing the DPS.
GWF and CW on the adds. GWF tanking and dps them, CW keeping adds in check so the GWF doesn't get overwhelmed.
DC using AOE heals to keep everyone alive.
The problem is the game is not functioning properly.
I do not think it's supposed to be "ok guys, everyone stand in my pretty blue circle 24/7 so we don't need fighters"
ok so the AS faithful build cleric / conqueror dps tank / renegade wizard / executioner rogue are not the uniform build and only functional build as we speak right now. I don't see how making dps less mandatory and harder to acquire if you need to fit your role will make the game more uniform than we speak right now where the only optimization or build necessary is Cleric with AS (2 is better) and 4 optimized dps no matter the class.
At least doing something different will be rewarding and maybe more useful to clear dungeons.
Sorry i won't lose time anymore with this whining garbage contradicting topic. I said my opinion, i don't need to convince people.
You can return queuing double AS DC in CN and enjoy the variety of build this game offers presently, as it will "surely" become a WoW clone soon with unique theorycrafting and unique way to play your role instead of being a... dps in a blue circle with other dps? ...
I wouldn't say that... But I can at least understand his point.
Why are they nerfing the duration and healing of AS. It's challenging enough as it is to keep a group up. Are they buffing other skills to offset this nerf? Seeing as how the Cleric didn't really need a nerf in the first place, besides the stacking.... I don't get it. Who has been complaining that the shields were OP?
I don't think they have replied to any of the concerns being voiced about the changes yet have they?
but they mmoved that topic from general to here.. so that's mean they saw that topic
We've been bringing these issues up since... forever.
REMOVE righteousness (or at least reduce it to something passable like 20%).
Reduce the CD on Bastion of health. Currently it's ridiculously long and heals for ridiculously little.
Make healing word heal all teammates. With the current mobswarm during boss fights, it's pretty **** hard to aim it to the right person, and even if we do heal the correct person, it heals not a whole lot, and it's heal over time rather than instant.
People cry about AS because it was all we had, and now they want to take that away too.
Tried out a few runs in test shard using cleric, things not looking too good so far. Some dungeons (looking at you, spider queen) are almost unable to be solo healed without using some pretty epic gear (and if one were, what's the point of running those dungeons?).
And this "cleric" is saying nothing is wrong with the skill. Works perfectly fine! LOL
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?333701-Astral-Shield-Video-Live-vs-Test-Server
Its FREE game so you leaving wont hurt them any
Please do realize that once upon a time, Clerics are meant to be fragile healers. In WOW, healing classes like Priests, Druids, Shamans and Paladins are optimized to dish out tons of healing and die in 1-2 hits even from the lowest of minions. The Tank, Healer & DPS trinity is non-existent in this game. I play a Devoted Cleric with full T2 and even in Castle Never Epic, I initiate fights and tank adds with Astral Shield and Forgemaster. These changes to cleric clearly indicates the trinity meta is clearly what the developers originally intend for Neverwinter Online.
Comparing to other MMORPGs like WOW, potions are limited by only cooldown which is actually abusive. If you think the game is really getting too difficult, nobody is forcing you to play a free to play game. And honestly, dungeon raids in WOW are much much much more complex and require more teamwork and coordination.
Never was the case for D&D. D&D clerics are the rush in with mace and shield type, bashing undead skeleton's skulls in while bringing (holy-based) bonuses to your party members simultaneously
He is obviously new to the cleric concept in D&D and is the standard MMO player.
But that's ok.
Yes...Because WoW was the *first* MMO.
This was hardly the case for EQ. Clerics were just as good as any of the plate classes (warrior, Paladin, SK) for 'taking the hits' The reason you placed them at ranged was so that they wouldn't get hit, not that they couldn't. You didn't want to spend resources healing a cleric when the focus should be on healing the tank.
Vanguard also had a similar outlook. Clerics wore plate and actually had abilities that DEMANDED you be in melee and hitting the mob shoulder to shoulder with the tanks (two of your buffs were combat buffs, increasing STR CON and DEX for 5 mins, and the other was increased damage and crit).
DDO also had tank-like clerics who wore plate and was as good, if not better than paladins or fighters.
Rift had clerics that could TANK, or be tanky yet still heal effectively. It wasn't so that they'd tank the raid boss, but it was so that they could take a hit or two before pulling healing resources off the tank and to themselves.
You're assumption that clerics are ranged squishies in ALL games is wrong, and based on a *limited* market of MMO's out there. WoW is not a standard, except for how 'popular' it is.
someone with common sense and the ability to see how different games approached things differently. I like you
yea and a good majority thought 4E sucked that's why WoTC is already working on 5E, guess what this game is starting to suck...
Guess what, if you spent money on the game, its not a free game anymore.
You'd have a point of this kind of distinction were unique to 4e, but it's not. Devoted and Battle are just official names given to different types of clerics that players made on their own in previous editions. Clerics COULD run up to the front lines and bash heads in 2e and 3.5 if you played or built your character that way. They could also focus on improving their casting ability if they wanted to. Devoted Clerics are built towards standing in the back and being castery, in the same way that Guardian Fighters are built to use a shield, and Trickster Rogues can't pick up a bow. We're not Battle Clerics, that'll be a separate class when/if it releases.