Thank you so much for the feedback todesfaelle! I rolled 15 STR, 11 Con, 15 Dex, 15 CHA, 14 INT, and 10 WIS. I decided to go with a Tiefling for the race because of bloodhunt and the +2 in INT. I'm definitely looking forward to watching you in action! And great job with the guide, it's very thorough and helps tons!! Oh and a question about bloodhunt, even though it's not showing up as a buff/debuff is it still active?
Yo todesfaelle This character is Master infiltraor or Whisperknife?
I started on Neverwinter I am interested to build INT TR as the post7 of the first page (Whisperknife).
I am interested in this. Could it be viable against other classes too or is it just a stealth counter setup?
So far it's PVE spec-ed with only a degree of PVP viability, but I'm getting my Profound Oppressor set so this build should see better days in PVP. Right now it's viable in 1 v 1's when you're not getting focused, because the CC rotation I'm using can be made almost permanent even with Tenacity. Ironically it's good against classes that are not CW's, because this build tends to like fighting in melee range for best results. I'll try to record a video of it, or even bring it on one of the premades we make in the channel when the opportunity arises.
Thank you so much for the feedback todesfaelle! I rolled 15 STR, 11 Con, 15 Dex, 15 CHA, 14 INT, and 10 WIS. I decided to go with a Tiefling for the race because of bloodhunt and the +2 in INT. I'm definitely looking forward to watching you in action! And great job with the guide, it's very thorough and helps tons!! Oh and a question about bloodhunt, even though it's not showing up as a buff/debuff is it still active?
Hey, Knygis! No prob. And yep, Bloodhunt works even though it doesn't show up. It'll show up if you parse your damage.
Yo todesfaelle This character is Master infiltraor or Whisperknife?
I started on Neverwinter I am interested to build INT TR as the post7 of the first page (Whisperknife).
This is really viable in PvE dungeon?
Thank you in advance and very nice guide.
Hey, Myvanael. Banelorne Fallbanner is a Master Infiltrator. The Whisperknife variant on the other hand, yes it can be made viable in PVE dungeons but only when soloing. Burst DPS is king in group PVE settings with CW's and GWF's. There's no playing with them, so we are forced to play with other rogues with similar builds.
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luluslohMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited April 2014
with set are you guys using? seemns like the profund is the best set atm but with one of the 3 is the best?
I'm using Profound Scoundrel so far. Haven't had the chance to update the front page again with newer info about gear because of work so my apologies if it's causing some confusion.
Maybe other people found different ways of gearing up their rogues. If you guys can chime in on this, the floor is open!
Long time lurker (skulker?) and I've been using Banelorne's build for many months now. It's a fun build, and I enjoy the hell out of being a TR. I'm chiming in because I haven't seen much discussion about what just happened with our armor. I'm just now getting the 4-piece Profound set, (went with Scoundrel,) and the numbers aren't thrilling me.
Comparing the B-Skulker set and the P-Scoundrel Set:
We gain 1162 Power, 13 (!) Defense, 546 Deflection, 760 Tenacity (PvP only,) a 5% extension of the Steatlth Meter, and a 2.5% increase in Damage while stealthed.
We lose 1792 Hit Points, 808 Critical Strike, 109 Armor Penetration, 478 Life Steal, and 126 Movement.
That's a net loss of 832 "points" (with the caveat that all points are not created equal, and that the additons to Stealth length/damage are not quantified as "points".)
To me it feels like an under-handed nerf, considering the difficulty of acquiring the armor and the feeling that --because it's so much more difficult to get-- it should qualify as our Best armor.
I'm sure I'll enjoy having Tenacity, particularly in the forthcoming IceWind Dale Zones. But I'd be interested to see if other classes are taking similar hits to their other stats in exchange for a new stat that will only be useful in a small part of the game. And that last notion makes me wonder if this isn't a move toward manufacturing a need for two seperate sets of armor --one for the PvP zones and one for PvE. This new and better armor set is definitely a step backward in terms of Party play in PvE dungeons yes?
I realize some or even most of what's been lost can be made up for with a combination of Enchants, Companions, and Artifacts, and I look forward to hearing how it can be done. But those 832 points sure seem like a harsh trade off for what we're getting, at least in terms of PvE.
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crystal892fMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 385Arc User
edited April 2014
I play a permastealth Whisperknife (as described here), but respec'ed from Executioner to Saboteur. I played quite a few matches in the past few days and really am not happy. Not because of the change from Exe to Sab, but my general problem was as Exe and as Sab still is: I can't kill.
I stay purely defensive with Cloud of Steel and Disheartening Strike. The only classes that even tickles that are CWs and maybe HRs. Every other class and specially defensive build CWs and HRs just outregen the damage I do. Or even worse: GFs. I can't clear their guard meter to even get to damage then. When I have a good damage Dis Strike ticking and fired all of my Cloud of Steel, their guard meter is maybe down - but I have nothing to attack with anymore. So he recharges his guard meter, I recharge my Cloud and the game starts anew.
So I tried Duelist's Flurry and Dis Strike. I try to hit only the actual flurry part. But without ITC, I'm easy game after the Flurry ends. Of course I dodge immediately after my Flurry ended, but I somehow still get hit. Which drains my stealth meter (yes, I use Tenacious Concealment) a bit faster which screws up my rotation and I'm visible.
I don't know, maybe this build isn't supposed to kill and it's just not my playstyle. But any tips or even videos would be helpful. Thanks.
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chestnut13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 176Arc User
edited April 2014
Don't mean to hijack but wanted to comment on Crystal's Whisperknife issues. While I believe that without any changes, WK is a dead spec, I am having quite a bit of fun and success playing one right now. I am 14K GS, not even close to semi perma, only play in pugs, and occasionally come up against some very strong opponents. (I ended in back to back's againnst Enemy Team a couple days ago ... I think one was 1000 to 0 and it wasn't that close.) I had similar feelings that you have elicited until I began thinking more strategically. The most important thing to me is that the team wins. No matter how well I do individually, if I lose, I don't like it. I view my role as support. My first task is to immediately judge what my teammates are capable of and play a role to make them better. I was running a vorpal and switched to a bilethorn (just regular) and that has made a big difference. After VP got donked, I spec'd for DiS and sab. I either run DiS and CS or CS and DF. If the former, I slot SS, LB, and PoB which gives me a poor man's SE for a quick kill. With the latter it's SS, IS, PoB. You can do a LOT of damage to the enemy by rushing in popping PoB, stealth, and DiS weak targets immediately and blasting out CS on low HP targets. The bile really helps and you need to spec for footspeed too. If it's going to be a gank battle fest, I'll move to the DF loadout knowing that I'll die a bit more but really be able to help finish opponents off. As soon as I think my team has an advantage, I'll rush to a tower and cap.
Learn to use combo's with Hatefull Knives that act similar to a SE. You can kill very well with that! Whittle away with DiS and CS, pop HK, hit LB while they are proned, and empty whatever you have of CS.
I started a thread called something like "Lousy PVP TR" ... find that and look for Todesfaelle's spec suggestions ... it really helped me although I tweaked it a bit to suit my playstyle. And since I am not perma at all, I build up my deflection as much as possible. You can truly wreak havoc as a ranged WK if you play it smart (I know, I know ... it won't hold up in top competition). I can 1v1 quite well against similar GS and have no fear there knowing that even if I lose, it will take a while and the other team sends someone else and then I win even if I die.
A good GWF is going to probably beat you and if you are up against a prone monkey combo (GF and GWF) that are targeting you, syonara. I actually have to most trouble with a good CW that knows his rotations. No ITC and it's stunlock to death. And that is the real problem with the WK build ... you can't break control and without anything else to substitue, it is indeed a dead spec. I am just waiting for more info on Mod 3 before I respec to MI ... it's the only choice really. In the meantime though ... I am pretty happy with a 2-1 kill/death ration and averaging more than 25 assists.
Excuse me Banelorne.Do I need to have Battlefield Scavenger set to become permanent stealth? or just Sneaky Stabber and Improved Cunning Sneak are enough.Because in page 2 I saw you said you have 8 seconds of stealth but my new TR have 5 seconds and with feat +20% stealth meter I still have 6 seconds.
Stealth TR will be actually at Mod 3 or no? Now i have a non stealth build and wanna change to perma stealth . Radius visibility will be increase :eek:
My apologies for the terribly long wait. Been real busy with real life as I recently earned a promotion in my job so I'm working harder than usual. To answer a few questions...
Excuse me Banelorne.Do I need to have Battlefield Scavenger set to become permanent stealth? or just Sneaky Stabber and Improved Cunning Sneak are enough.Because in page 2 I saw you said you have 8 seconds of stealth but my new TR have 5 seconds and with feat +20% stealth meter I still have 6 seconds.
Hi. It's very possible to achieve permastealth by Battlefield Scavenger, but getting a Skulker or even a Profound set would be a whole lot better. I can achieve 8 seconds of Stealth with the Scavenger set if I put the Twilight Adept stealth refills into consideration.
Stealth TR will be actually at Mod 3 or no? Now i have a non stealth build and wanna change to perma stealth . Radius visibility will be increase :eek:
As long as the rogue remains a rogue, any and all builds based on Stealth will be viable. It's our main defining feature.
Congratulations Todesfaelle for your promotion. You set a good example for us all, being largely involved in a gaming community and still have a life (mine is as stressful as it gets so playing is usually a hideout LOL).
Stealth TR will be actually at Mod 3 or no? Now i have a non stealth build and wanna change to perma stealth . Radius visibility will be increase
Module 3 brings us back our options. The new BiS sets synergies well with striker builds, whereas permanent stealth is not being reworked until halfway into the module. I've actually read somebody write this is the golden age of rogues.
After about three dozen experiments and respecs, I'm finally happy with my Executioner build. I can stealth permanently with Shadow Strike/Bait and Switch and Lurkers (in PvE) and ITC/Shox (in PvP). At the same time I'm a striker who dishes a truck of damage. My TR leaves much to be desired for any serious permastealth rollers, but it's enough for me. So perhaps a build similar to mine is what you want: a striker build that can go into extended stealth situationally.
I don't know, maybe this build isn't supposed to kill and it's just not my playstyle. But any tips or even videos would be helpful. Thanks.
Just to try it, I recently rolled a new TR that is spec into a Whisperknife Permastealth -- with Dish Strike and Clouds of Steel for at will, I don't need to enter melee and as a result don't need ITC. I do my damage through PotB and P.Bilethorn is enough to whittle away that guard metter. Tip though: Don't expend your clouds of steel on a GF that way. DoT with Path and Dish Strike should do the trick. I would maybe use Clouds of Steel for a bursty kind of attack right after Hateful Knives when the GF is prone.
But on the bottomline, WK just deals less damage than MI because rouges were supposed to be single target melee damage dealers. WK gets the benefit of range, but with reduced firepower -- and fairly so, in my opinion.
Just to expand on the Whisperknife build posted and other people who have commented on it...
I've been a fan of the WK since it was released. It has quite a few downfalls (especially after the VP change) but I'm still determined to make it work with a few tweaks. Given the build you posted in your OP, I have a few questions:
1) We're not exactly going crit-happy with Perma-Stealth WK, even though TR has high base crit, wouldn't it be better to rely on natural crit chance and spec more into something more defensive/sustainable? Disheartening Strike is our main ranged poke but given the cast time and the fact that it's a single-hit skill with a subsequent DoT, crit doesn't seem to be very valuable considering the initial hit has to crit in order for the DoT to tick.
2) Someone else pointed out the blaring problem with DF in PvP: You can wind up to the third strike and hit someone with it but you'll still probably get hit right after, even if you dodge, and might screw up your rotation. You can buffer that with, I guess, Tenacious Concealment and more Recovery, however, is it safe to assume that the bleed from DF is the main source of damage in PvP and not the immediate damage from the strikes?
3) Executioner vs Saboteur. Given the fact that WK doesn't have ITC, would you say it would be more beneficial to spec into Sab instead?
4) Lastly, weapon enchants. Vorpal is pretty ******* amazing but let's face it: WK doesn't exactly have the immediate spike damage or killing tools to quickly get rid of opponents. Bilethorn seems like a good idea and Plague Fire is a nice debuff for your party. I'm honestly torn between the two and can't decide. I mainly enjoy PuGs more than premades and PF seems more like the group utility, although it also seems somewhat useful if you decide to reapply Disheartening Strike hoping for a crit. Bilethorn is more upfront and seems to compliment Disheartening Strike's DoT.
If I ever get the equips to fully test this, I'll be sure to post my experiences with my copyrighted "Scumbag Stealth WK" variation.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Congratulations Todesfaelle for your promotion. You set a good example for us all, being largely involved in a gaming community and still have a life (mine is as stressful as it gets so playing is usually a hideout LOL).
Hey, Rust! Thanks a lot, man. How are things going on in the game lately? I'll be sure to come back on Mod 3 launch so I'm looking forward to hanging with you sneaky and non-sneaky guys in Open World PVP!
Just to expand on the Whisperknife build posted and other people who have commented on it...
I've been a fan of the WK since it was released. It has quite a few downfalls (especially after the VP change) but I'm still determined to make it work with a few tweaks. Given the build you posted in your OP, I have a few questions:
1) We're not exactly going crit-happy with Perma-Stealth WK, even though TR has high base crit, wouldn't it be better to rely on natural crit chance and spec more into something more defensive/sustainable? Disheartening Strike is our main ranged poke but given the cast time and the fact that it's a single-hit skill with a subsequent DoT, crit doesn't seem to be very valuable considering the initial hit has to crit in order for the DoT to tick.
2) Someone else pointed out the blaring problem with DF in PvP: You can wind up to the third strike and hit someone with it but you'll still probably get hit right after, even if you dodge, and might screw up your rotation. You can buffer that with, I guess, Tenacious Concealment and more Recovery, however, is it safe to assume that the bleed from DF is the main source of damage in PvP and not the immediate damage from the strikes?
3) Executioner vs Saboteur. Given the fact that WK doesn't have ITC, would you say it would be more beneficial to spec into Sab instead?
4) Lastly, weapon enchants. Vorpal is pretty ******* amazing but let's face it: WK doesn't exactly have the immediate spike damage or killing tools to quickly get rid of opponents. Bilethorn seems like a good idea and Plague Fire is a nice debuff for your party. I'm honestly torn between the two and can't decide. I mainly enjoy PuGs more than premades and PF seems more like the group utility, although it also seems somewhat useful if you decide to reapply Disheartening Strike hoping for a crit. Bilethorn is more upfront and seems to compliment Disheartening Strike's DoT.
If I ever get the equips to fully test this, I'll be sure to post my experiences with my copyrighted "Scumbag Stealth WK" variation.
Hey, Mjytresz. If it's PVP, you make a good point. But for PVE, our main mode of defense for the WK Perma is pretty much Stealth and range. I modeled that build with PVE in mind.
For PVP, there are multiple ways to build your WK. I don't think one choice is actually better than the other because at some point, one path will have to give something up that the other can't. So if you want to deal some damage, go for Exe. For defensive play, there's Sab. But to add a couple more of my 2 cents, WK's have something that Master Infiltrators can never possibly hope to have; and that is Range. Range, like Stealth, can be used as a tool for offense and defense. One glaring problem that MI Permas have is that they have to get close to their enemies to deal damage to them. WK's do not have to risk getting into melee range. They can keep pelting their enemies with single target ranged at-wills that hit hard (harder when they crit, specially Dish. Strike), and do it all while in Stealth. That's 2 barriers your opponents have to go through if they wish to kill you as compared to MI's only having 1, which is just Stealth, as the MI's ranged capabilities have been minimized with the introduction of Module 2.
And it's true, Dish Strike needs to crit on its initial tick before the entire sequence of bleeds crit. But don't you think that's pretty OP in itself? It's crazy, because no other At-Will can dish out that much damage in the safety of range and stealth. Absolutely zero risk at the cost of the loss of a little burst damage. Not much need for ITC as well if played right, because a WK perma should not be caught in melee range. WK presents another face of OP for rogues, if played like how it's supposed to be played.
If I'm going for Sab for the WK, it's probably because of the Run Speed I get from Sab. Sab offers added defensive utilities while Executioner increased Dish Strike's burst capabilities. In the end, the correct choice will depend on what you really want your WK Perm to do. Dish out damage or harass from range and stealth? I personally would opt to go for the Executioner path as it will be viable for solo PVE as well, but Sab is a good choice for PVP (not so much for PVE).
After about three dozen experiments and respecs, I'm finally happy with my Executioner build. I can stealth permanently with Shadow Strike/Bait and Switch and Lurkers (in PvE) and ITC/Shox (in PvP). At the same time I'm a striker who dishes a truck of damage. My TR leaves much to be desired for any serious permastealth rollers, but it's enough for me. So perhaps a build similar to mine is what you want: a striker build that can go into extended stealth situationally.
Do you plan to update your guide with your new build? I used your original one as a starting point for a Scoundrel variant (I suck badly at using DF) and I'm having a blast with it even with lowly gear, so I'd be interested in any tweaks you've come up with.
Glad to know we'll be seeing ya soon Todesfaelle. I've been mostly AWOL from the PvP scene lately, been trying to mobilize my guild for Icewind in two days. That, and my newfound addiction to playing a Nature spec Healer Ranger in PvE.
With regards to Whisperknife, a few weeks back I did some massive ACT testing with Disheartening Strike vs Duelist Flurry -- cost me 2 rounds of respec too to check my findings when applied in practice.
The DPS coming from bleeds alone of Dish Strike were overwhelming, not reapplying them for sure crits, but simply throwing at six dummies to keep the bleeds ticking. The constant application of bleeds to multiple targets (beyond 5) exceeded the damage being done through Duelist Flurry (Deadly Momentum taken into account as well). That was incredibly promising, which led to the double respec.
In a practical situation, WK peaks the highest TR at will damage with Dish Strike--but with one massive caveat.
The auto targeting with the reticule isn't exactly easy, especially from range. At default FOV 55, it was awful to try to target Dish Strike so that every one of the ten adds in your line of sight could be marked. At times, the bleeds would drop or I'd be reapplying it to the same target.
I left the experiment at that, and went off thinking I'm better at using DF than DS.
Managed to get my WK to 60 and ran into quite a few problems:
First off, I originally went with the Saboteur spec but it wasn't very long into the 50's that I realized how low my damage was compared to other WK's even. Luckily, I got a free respec and went about 50/50 Sab/Exe and the damage increase is pretty noticeable while still retaining some of the key Sab feats. I willingly went into this build knowing that I wouldn't have the burst damage of a MI TR, but I'd have the safety and sheer annoyance of being able to attack from range and DoT the hell out of everything. I've only run a few PuGs at 60 but the pressure I put onto a team, in terms of damage, is pretty negligible. I'm pretty much confined to being able to kill other DPS classes and irritating the hell out of tankier classes.
Secondly, the rotation. I'm not very aware of what changed with TRs since the last time I stopped playing, however, it seems like Gloaming Cut is nearly necessary for the build to work. I have an Ioun Stone that's similarly equipped to yours but with Recovery in all but 1 slot, all R7s. I was sitting at about 2.2-2.3k Recovery with 20 points in Int. Even with the dodge feats, maintaining perma-stealth was pretty difficult and most often times pretty impossible without good Lurker's Assault.
I honestly said "**** it" and changed most of my accessories around to stack Recovery and Crit, ending up with ~40% Crit and ~3k Recovery. With decent timing, perma-stealth isn't hard to pull off at all. 1 Dodge on SS and 2 Dodges on B&S is enough to keep stealth up permanently. The problem is the damage. Even with Skulker and a Vorpal, I don't think this spec would put out an amazing amount of damage. I'm currently only using Scavenger and Bilethorn but I still can't see this build rocketing to the top of the charts in PvP.
So, there you have it. 20 Int, 21 Str, 3k Recovery, 40% Crit perma-stealth WK TR.
I can't see a reason to choose WK over MI for perma-stealth but the annoyance factor is good enough for me. Having people chase me across the map out of anger doesn't get old. Ever.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Managed to get my WK to 60 and ran into quite a few problems:
First off, I originally went with the Saboteur spec but it wasn't very long into the 50's that I realized how low my damage was compared to other WK's even. Luckily, I got a free respec and went about 50/50 Sab/Exe and the damage increase is pretty noticeable while still retaining some of the key Sab feats. I willingly went into this build knowing that I wouldn't have the burst damage of a MI TR, but I'd have the safety and sheer annoyance of being able to attack from range and DoT the hell out of everything. I've only run a few PuGs at 60 but the pressure I put onto a team, in terms of damage, is pretty negligible. I'm pretty much confined to being able to kill other DPS classes and irritating the hell out of tankier classes.
Secondly, the rotation. I'm not very aware of what changed with TRs since the last time I stopped playing, however, it seems like Gloaming Cut is nearly necessary for the build to work. I have an Ioun Stone that's similarly equipped to yours but with Recovery in all but 1 slot, all R7s. I was sitting at about 2.2-2.3k Recovery with 20 points in Int. Even with the dodge feats, maintaining perma-stealth was pretty difficult and most often times pretty impossible without good Lurker's Assault.
I honestly said "**** it" and changed most of my accessories around to stack Recovery and Crit, ending up with ~40% Crit and ~3k Recovery. With decent timing, perma-stealth isn't hard to pull off at all. 1 Dodge on SS and 2 Dodges on B&S is enough to keep stealth up permanently. The problem is the damage. Even with Skulker and a Vorpal, I don't think this spec would put out an amazing amount of damage. I'm currently only using Scavenger and Bilethorn but I still can't see this build rocketing to the top of the charts in PvP.
So, there you have it. 20 Int, 21 Str, 3k Recovery, 40% Crit perma-stealth WK TR.
I can't see a reason to choose WK over MI for perma-stealth but the annoyance factor is good enough for me. Having people chase me across the map out of anger doesn't get old. Ever.
Hey, Mjytresz. Been trying to test PVP-viable WK specs and in all honesty, with the disappearance of the zero-CD mechanic of VP, the viability of WK pretty much dropped with it. Like you said, the only way WK's will be able to contribute for the team is to become a source of annoyance, and to support the team by inflicting serious bleed damage against the enemy. For a WK perma to work, they absolutely have to have a Profound Set. The extra 5% increase is noticeable. WK's rely on dodging for their non-encounter extra stealth refills.
But like I mentioned, I've been testing some PVP-viable WK specs in Preview and I came up with something like this.
Skill Bar.
- At-Wills: Disheartening Strike, Cloud of Steel.
- Encounters: Bait and Switch, Shadow Strike, Smoke Bomb.
- Class Features: First Strike, Dagger Threat.
- Dailies: Lurker's Assault, Hateful Knives.
The concept behind this is pretty easy to understand. At-Wills will be the main source of damage, and attacks are made from range. What makes this build special is the raw 30% DPS increase Disheartening Strike will have for its initial tick thanks to First Strike (15% increased damage for the first strike in combat) + Dagger Threat (15% increased damage for ranged attacks made within 20ft of the target). The initial tick of DoT Bleeds like Dish Strike dictates how much the following bleed damage will also deal, so the only thing the WK needs to do is to get a little close to the enemy, get a Dish Strike on the target, and watch the damage floaters tick while you pelt him with Cloud of Steel at a safe distance just to add some more damage. Thanks to First Strike + Dagger Threat, Dish Strike will deal bleed damage buffed by a 30% increase in DPS. This can only get higher when it crits and when you use Lurker's Assault with it for an extra 25%. Just imagine how much damage you can do with a 55% increased DPS buffed DS, proc-ing a crit.
And to help maintain Stealth, I also recommend having Smoke Bomb slotted. Just drop this on your enemy and Shadow Strike to go back into Stealth. It's sort of like a replacement for ITC, but not entirely as useful as ITC. In group situations it's pretty handy since your entire team benefits from it as you daze the entire opposing team on the node.
Just a little something random. Played 20 PVP matches so far, 5 per day during the opportunities I had the time to go online. And to my surprise, I checked the leaderboard and saw that I got into page 9. Win/Loss and Kill/Death ratios are also pretty decent so far and hopefully they stay that way. I'm just surprised to see that 20 matches was enough to take me to page 9. Now I'm thinking this leaderboard thing is dubious.
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crystal892fMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 385Arc User
Hey todesfaelle, your build sounds good, but I'd like to question "First Strike" as class feature.
Since Mod3, you stay in combat 8 seconds after combat ends (can't mount up in this time, as well - very annoying), so First Strike won't reset as it did before. But even without that change: Since WKs don't have ITC as emergency power, I'd say Tenacious Consealment to maintain stealth (as stealth is, without ITC, our best defense mechanism) is more important. Sure, if you stay ranged, the chance of getting caught and hit is lower, but it can still happen. And this can mess up your rotation pretty badly and you can die pretty fast then.
So I'd say TC over First Strike.
Hey todesfaelle, which paragon do you think is best in the current meta. I'm new and not really sure... Sorry if this is a stupid question... Great guide btw thx
Hey Tod, nice to see you back! I'd agree on the dubious part where Leaderboards is concerned. I've been in and out of the "pages worth looking at". What I've noticed is that inactivity seems to play a big part. Win/Loss plays big definitely too. But the scores, no matter how you math them around, don't really add up. I would assume it has to do with an ELO score separate from what is being displayed.
First few days I didn't bother to enter Domination and was nowhere to be seen in the leaderboards. Got in a few successful premades and had a big smile on my face the first time I appeared on there (not telling what page :P). Suffered huge when I started to play pugs for my Vanguard's Banner. Then won some premades in a row to land me back in the top pages...then eased down one page per day when I stopped playing Domination completely.
Just thought I'd share for those of you who were a tad bit interested how that thing works. If you have more insights to add, do let me know!
PS: I stopped playing my TR to level a new GWF for the artifact...because I want it and I'm shallow. I once deleted a 14K GWF before also because I am shallow >.<
hey tod im new umm which paragon do you think is best for the tr in the current meta?
Well, i am an Int-Rogue with 100 % stealth with two encounters. You know the squishy sort of rogues. Bane did several 1 vs 1 with me and we did some ring farming trips as well.
With Mod 3 i had to make my mind about the paragon path to follow. Originally i chose the executioner tree, but i changed three times to be real happy. First of all, i took full saboteur tree. Wow, that fantastic speed you get! But your damage was meh! Interesting the unlimited possibilities to fight nodes in pvp against 1,2,3,4 ... 5 (!) enemies. But damage counts somehow.
So i came back to executioner path, but got ugly defeats against some (really skilled) gwfs. Finally i did a third change. I chose half saboteur and half scoundrel tree with no end tear, and now i am really flabbergasted. Good speed, AP gain, damage and regeneration. Todays score was 81-6 and several gwf will remember my name. So i think the build is not too bad. I am way mediocre in skill, but working on my tr s since open beta in april 2013. So i may say, dont overlook the saboteurs tree!
Greetings from MASK
First of, thanks for awesome the guide ^_^ When I switched to TR, I used the first gloaming cut build and had tons of fun with it. Which brings me to my question.
I took a longish break, then came back earlier this month. I thought of going whisperknife for a change but I only have 12 INT (10 + 2 from levels) since I originally made my guy for the gloaming cut build. I have scavenger set right now and wondering if I can go perma-ish stealth without using lurker's assault like I am able to do with the gloaming cut build. Went to dummies and tried to stay in stealth with just bait & switch and shadow strike but I think I miss the cooldowns by 2-3 seconds.
This guide is great, the only problem I've had with it is that in Icewind dale, for heroic encounters, my damage is too low/slow so at the end of it I nver ge the big prizes, I just get 25-35 black ice
I take a while killing a single powerful mob, and then a GWF comes by and kill 3 of the same mobs in like 5 secs...
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited June 2014
While I use Gloaming Cut stealth rotations on corrupted dwarves so they don't kick Silv all over the place, for big heroic encounters it's all DF and Lurker's, which is fairly easy to keep up because of slapping my B&S down in the red. I don't even change up my bar.
I got a dagger early on so something must be working. I never bothered trying to get the bracers with him since he can't use the armor set with this build.
It might partly be gear though. I've had time to put a lot into him.
interesting, but I guess I've had bad luck with the decoy in Icewind dale, even after using it right next to some mobs they attack me, or my companion if I'm using a non augment one...
I'll try to use BnS more instead of SS and see if my bar goes up faster that way.
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unbahMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited June 2014
Use BnS only in enemies AoE. One powerfull hit can restore almost full AP bar. It is bad for just losing aggro tho.
Comments
I started on Neverwinter I am interested to build INT TR as the post7 of the first page (Whisperknife).
This is really viable in PvE dungeon?
Thank you in advance and very nice guide.
So far it's PVE spec-ed with only a degree of PVP viability, but I'm getting my Profound Oppressor set so this build should see better days in PVP. Right now it's viable in 1 v 1's when you're not getting focused, because the CC rotation I'm using can be made almost permanent even with Tenacity. Ironically it's good against classes that are not CW's, because this build tends to like fighting in melee range for best results. I'll try to record a video of it, or even bring it on one of the premades we make in the channel when the opportunity arises.
Hey, Knygis! No prob. And yep, Bloodhunt works even though it doesn't show up. It'll show up if you parse your damage.
Hey, Myvanael. Banelorne Fallbanner is a Master Infiltrator. The Whisperknife variant on the other hand, yes it can be made viable in PVE dungeons but only when soloing. Burst DPS is king in group PVE settings with CW's and GWF's. There's no playing with them, so we are forced to play with other rogues with similar builds.
Maybe other people found different ways of gearing up their rogues. If you guys can chime in on this, the floor is open!
Comparing the B-Skulker set and the P-Scoundrel Set:
We gain 1162 Power, 13 (!) Defense, 546 Deflection, 760 Tenacity (PvP only,) a 5% extension of the Steatlth Meter, and a 2.5% increase in Damage while stealthed.
We lose 1792 Hit Points, 808 Critical Strike, 109 Armor Penetration, 478 Life Steal, and 126 Movement.
That's a net loss of 832 "points" (with the caveat that all points are not created equal, and that the additons to Stealth length/damage are not quantified as "points".)
To me it feels like an under-handed nerf, considering the difficulty of acquiring the armor and the feeling that --because it's so much more difficult to get-- it should qualify as our Best armor.
I'm sure I'll enjoy having Tenacity, particularly in the forthcoming IceWind Dale Zones. But I'd be interested to see if other classes are taking similar hits to their other stats in exchange for a new stat that will only be useful in a small part of the game. And that last notion makes me wonder if this isn't a move toward manufacturing a need for two seperate sets of armor --one for the PvP zones and one for PvE. This new and better armor set is definitely a step backward in terms of Party play in PvE dungeons yes?
I realize some or even most of what's been lost can be made up for with a combination of Enchants, Companions, and Artifacts, and I look forward to hearing how it can be done. But those 832 points sure seem like a harsh trade off for what we're getting, at least in terms of PvE.
I stay purely defensive with Cloud of Steel and Disheartening Strike. The only classes that even tickles that are CWs and maybe HRs. Every other class and specially defensive build CWs and HRs just outregen the damage I do. Or even worse: GFs. I can't clear their guard meter to even get to damage then. When I have a good damage Dis Strike ticking and fired all of my Cloud of Steel, their guard meter is maybe down - but I have nothing to attack with anymore. So he recharges his guard meter, I recharge my Cloud and the game starts anew.
So I tried Duelist's Flurry and Dis Strike. I try to hit only the actual flurry part. But without ITC, I'm easy game after the Flurry ends. Of course I dodge immediately after my Flurry ended, but I somehow still get hit. Which drains my stealth meter (yes, I use Tenacious Concealment) a bit faster which screws up my rotation and I'm visible.
I don't know, maybe this build isn't supposed to kill and it's just not my playstyle. But any tips or even videos would be helpful. Thanks.
Learn to use combo's with Hatefull Knives that act similar to a SE. You can kill very well with that! Whittle away with DiS and CS, pop HK, hit LB while they are proned, and empty whatever you have of CS.
I started a thread called something like "Lousy PVP TR" ... find that and look for Todesfaelle's spec suggestions ... it really helped me although I tweaked it a bit to suit my playstyle. And since I am not perma at all, I build up my deflection as much as possible. You can truly wreak havoc as a ranged WK if you play it smart (I know, I know ... it won't hold up in top competition). I can 1v1 quite well against similar GS and have no fear there knowing that even if I lose, it will take a while and the other team sends someone else and then I win even if I die.
A good GWF is going to probably beat you and if you are up against a prone monkey combo (GF and GWF) that are targeting you, syonara. I actually have to most trouble with a good CW that knows his rotations. No ITC and it's stunlock to death. And that is the real problem with the WK build ... you can't break control and without anything else to substitue, it is indeed a dead spec. I am just waiting for more info on Mod 3 before I respec to MI ... it's the only choice really. In the meantime though ... I am pretty happy with a 2-1 kill/death ration and averaging more than 25 assists.
Hi. It's very possible to achieve permastealth by Battlefield Scavenger, but getting a Skulker or even a Profound set would be a whole lot better. I can achieve 8 seconds of Stealth with the Scavenger set if I put the Twilight Adept stealth refills into consideration.
As long as the rogue remains a rogue, any and all builds based on Stealth will be viable. It's our main defining feature.
Module 3 brings us back our options. The new BiS sets synergies well with striker builds, whereas permanent stealth is not being reworked until halfway into the module. I've actually read somebody write this is the golden age of rogues.
After about three dozen experiments and respecs, I'm finally happy with my Executioner build. I can stealth permanently with Shadow Strike/Bait and Switch and Lurkers (in PvE) and ITC/Shox (in PvP). At the same time I'm a striker who dishes a truck of damage. My TR leaves much to be desired for any serious permastealth rollers, but it's enough for me. So perhaps a build similar to mine is what you want: a striker build that can go into extended stealth situationally.
Just to try it, I recently rolled a new TR that is spec into a Whisperknife Permastealth -- with Dish Strike and Clouds of Steel for at will, I don't need to enter melee and as a result don't need ITC. I do my damage through PotB and P.Bilethorn is enough to whittle away that guard metter. Tip though: Don't expend your clouds of steel on a GF that way. DoT with Path and Dish Strike should do the trick. I would maybe use Clouds of Steel for a bursty kind of attack right after Hateful Knives when the GF is prone.
But on the bottomline, WK just deals less damage than MI because rouges were supposed to be single target melee damage dealers. WK gets the benefit of range, but with reduced firepower -- and fairly so, in my opinion.
I've been a fan of the WK since it was released. It has quite a few downfalls (especially after the VP change) but I'm still determined to make it work with a few tweaks. Given the build you posted in your OP, I have a few questions:
1) We're not exactly going crit-happy with Perma-Stealth WK, even though TR has high base crit, wouldn't it be better to rely on natural crit chance and spec more into something more defensive/sustainable? Disheartening Strike is our main ranged poke but given the cast time and the fact that it's a single-hit skill with a subsequent DoT, crit doesn't seem to be very valuable considering the initial hit has to crit in order for the DoT to tick.
2) Someone else pointed out the blaring problem with DF in PvP: You can wind up to the third strike and hit someone with it but you'll still probably get hit right after, even if you dodge, and might screw up your rotation. You can buffer that with, I guess, Tenacious Concealment and more Recovery, however, is it safe to assume that the bleed from DF is the main source of damage in PvP and not the immediate damage from the strikes?
3) Executioner vs Saboteur. Given the fact that WK doesn't have ITC, would you say it would be more beneficial to spec into Sab instead?
4) Lastly, weapon enchants. Vorpal is pretty ******* amazing but let's face it: WK doesn't exactly have the immediate spike damage or killing tools to quickly get rid of opponents. Bilethorn seems like a good idea and Plague Fire is a nice debuff for your party. I'm honestly torn between the two and can't decide. I mainly enjoy PuGs more than premades and PF seems more like the group utility, although it also seems somewhat useful if you decide to reapply Disheartening Strike hoping for a crit. Bilethorn is more upfront and seems to compliment Disheartening Strike's DoT.
If I ever get the equips to fully test this, I'll be sure to post my experiences with my copyrighted "Scumbag Stealth WK" variation.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
Hey, Rust! Thanks a lot, man. How are things going on in the game lately? I'll be sure to come back on Mod 3 launch so I'm looking forward to hanging with you sneaky and non-sneaky guys in Open World PVP!
Hey, Mjytresz. If it's PVP, you make a good point. But for PVE, our main mode of defense for the WK Perma is pretty much Stealth and range. I modeled that build with PVE in mind.
For PVP, there are multiple ways to build your WK. I don't think one choice is actually better than the other because at some point, one path will have to give something up that the other can't. So if you want to deal some damage, go for Exe. For defensive play, there's Sab. But to add a couple more of my 2 cents, WK's have something that Master Infiltrators can never possibly hope to have; and that is Range. Range, like Stealth, can be used as a tool for offense and defense. One glaring problem that MI Permas have is that they have to get close to their enemies to deal damage to them. WK's do not have to risk getting into melee range. They can keep pelting their enemies with single target ranged at-wills that hit hard (harder when they crit, specially Dish. Strike), and do it all while in Stealth. That's 2 barriers your opponents have to go through if they wish to kill you as compared to MI's only having 1, which is just Stealth, as the MI's ranged capabilities have been minimized with the introduction of Module 2.
And it's true, Dish Strike needs to crit on its initial tick before the entire sequence of bleeds crit. But don't you think that's pretty OP in itself? It's crazy, because no other At-Will can dish out that much damage in the safety of range and stealth. Absolutely zero risk at the cost of the loss of a little burst damage. Not much need for ITC as well if played right, because a WK perma should not be caught in melee range. WK presents another face of OP for rogues, if played like how it's supposed to be played.
If I'm going for Sab for the WK, it's probably because of the Run Speed I get from Sab. Sab offers added defensive utilities while Executioner increased Dish Strike's burst capabilities. In the end, the correct choice will depend on what you really want your WK Perm to do. Dish out damage or harass from range and stealth? I personally would opt to go for the Executioner path as it will be viable for solo PVE as well, but Sab is a good choice for PVP (not so much for PVE).
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
With regards to Whisperknife, a few weeks back I did some massive ACT testing with Disheartening Strike vs Duelist Flurry -- cost me 2 rounds of respec too to check my findings when applied in practice.
The DPS coming from bleeds alone of Dish Strike were overwhelming, not reapplying them for sure crits, but simply throwing at six dummies to keep the bleeds ticking. The constant application of bleeds to multiple targets (beyond 5) exceeded the damage being done through Duelist Flurry (Deadly Momentum taken into account as well). That was incredibly promising, which led to the double respec.
In a practical situation, WK peaks the highest TR at will damage with Dish Strike--but with one massive caveat.
The auto targeting with the reticule isn't exactly easy, especially from range. At default FOV 55, it was awful to try to target Dish Strike so that every one of the ten adds in your line of sight could be marked. At times, the bleeds would drop or I'd be reapplying it to the same target.
I left the experiment at that, and went off thinking I'm better at using DF than DS.
First off, I originally went with the Saboteur spec but it wasn't very long into the 50's that I realized how low my damage was compared to other WK's even. Luckily, I got a free respec and went about 50/50 Sab/Exe and the damage increase is pretty noticeable while still retaining some of the key Sab feats. I willingly went into this build knowing that I wouldn't have the burst damage of a MI TR, but I'd have the safety and sheer annoyance of being able to attack from range and DoT the hell out of everything. I've only run a few PuGs at 60 but the pressure I put onto a team, in terms of damage, is pretty negligible. I'm pretty much confined to being able to kill other DPS classes and irritating the hell out of tankier classes.
Secondly, the rotation. I'm not very aware of what changed with TRs since the last time I stopped playing, however, it seems like Gloaming Cut is nearly necessary for the build to work. I have an Ioun Stone that's similarly equipped to yours but with Recovery in all but 1 slot, all R7s. I was sitting at about 2.2-2.3k Recovery with 20 points in Int. Even with the dodge feats, maintaining perma-stealth was pretty difficult and most often times pretty impossible without good Lurker's Assault.
I honestly said "**** it" and changed most of my accessories around to stack Recovery and Crit, ending up with ~40% Crit and ~3k Recovery. With decent timing, perma-stealth isn't hard to pull off at all. 1 Dodge on SS and 2 Dodges on B&S is enough to keep stealth up permanently. The problem is the damage. Even with Skulker and a Vorpal, I don't think this spec would put out an amazing amount of damage. I'm currently only using Scavenger and Bilethorn but I still can't see this build rocketing to the top of the charts in PvP.
So, there you have it. 20 Int, 21 Str, 3k Recovery, 40% Crit perma-stealth WK TR.
I can't see a reason to choose WK over MI for perma-stealth but the annoyance factor is good enough for me. Having people chase me across the map out of anger doesn't get old. Ever.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
Hey, Mjytresz. Been trying to test PVP-viable WK specs and in all honesty, with the disappearance of the zero-CD mechanic of VP, the viability of WK pretty much dropped with it. Like you said, the only way WK's will be able to contribute for the team is to become a source of annoyance, and to support the team by inflicting serious bleed damage against the enemy. For a WK perma to work, they absolutely have to have a Profound Set. The extra 5% increase is noticeable. WK's rely on dodging for their non-encounter extra stealth refills.
But like I mentioned, I've been testing some PVP-viable WK specs in Preview and I came up with something like this.
Skill Bar.
- At-Wills: Disheartening Strike, Cloud of Steel.
- Encounters: Bait and Switch, Shadow Strike, Smoke Bomb.
- Class Features: First Strike, Dagger Threat.
- Dailies: Lurker's Assault, Hateful Knives.
The concept behind this is pretty easy to understand. At-Wills will be the main source of damage, and attacks are made from range. What makes this build special is the raw 30% DPS increase Disheartening Strike will have for its initial tick thanks to First Strike (15% increased damage for the first strike in combat) + Dagger Threat (15% increased damage for ranged attacks made within 20ft of the target). The initial tick of DoT Bleeds like Dish Strike dictates how much the following bleed damage will also deal, so the only thing the WK needs to do is to get a little close to the enemy, get a Dish Strike on the target, and watch the damage floaters tick while you pelt him with Cloud of Steel at a safe distance just to add some more damage. Thanks to First Strike + Dagger Threat, Dish Strike will deal bleed damage buffed by a 30% increase in DPS. This can only get higher when it crits and when you use Lurker's Assault with it for an extra 25%. Just imagine how much damage you can do with a 55% increased DPS buffed DS, proc-ing a crit.
And to help maintain Stealth, I also recommend having Smoke Bomb slotted. Just drop this on your enemy and Shadow Strike to go back into Stealth. It's sort of like a replacement for ITC, but not entirely as useful as ITC. In group situations it's pretty handy since your entire team benefits from it as you daze the entire opposing team on the node.
Just a little something random. Played 20 PVP matches so far, 5 per day during the opportunities I had the time to go online. And to my surprise, I checked the leaderboard and saw that I got into page 9. Win/Loss and Kill/Death ratios are also pretty decent so far and hopefully they stay that way. I'm just surprised to see that 20 matches was enough to take me to page 9. Now I'm thinking this leaderboard thing is dubious.
Since Mod3, you stay in combat 8 seconds after combat ends (can't mount up in this time, as well - very annoying), so First Strike won't reset as it did before. But even without that change: Since WKs don't have ITC as emergency power, I'd say Tenacious Consealment to maintain stealth (as stealth is, without ITC, our best defense mechanism) is more important. Sure, if you stay ranged, the chance of getting caught and hit is lower, but it can still happen. And this can mess up your rotation pretty badly and you can die pretty fast then.
So I'd say TC over First Strike.
First few days I didn't bother to enter Domination and was nowhere to be seen in the leaderboards. Got in a few successful premades and had a big smile on my face the first time I appeared on there (not telling what page :P). Suffered huge when I started to play pugs for my Vanguard's Banner. Then won some premades in a row to land me back in the top pages...then eased down one page per day when I stopped playing Domination completely.
Just thought I'd share for those of you who were a tad bit interested how that thing works. If you have more insights to add, do let me know!
PS: I stopped playing my TR to level a new GWF for the artifact...because I want it and I'm shallow. I once deleted a 14K GWF before also because I am shallow >.<
Well, i am an Int-Rogue with 100 % stealth with two encounters. You know the squishy sort of rogues. Bane did several 1 vs 1 with me and we did some ring farming trips as well.
With Mod 3 i had to make my mind about the paragon path to follow. Originally i chose the executioner tree, but i changed three times to be real happy. First of all, i took full saboteur tree. Wow, that fantastic speed you get! But your damage was meh! Interesting the unlimited possibilities to fight nodes in pvp against 1,2,3,4 ... 5 (!) enemies. But damage counts somehow.
So i came back to executioner path, but got ugly defeats against some (really skilled) gwfs. Finally i did a third change. I chose half saboteur and half scoundrel tree with no end tear, and now i am really flabbergasted. Good speed, AP gain, damage and regeneration. Todays score was 81-6 and several gwf will remember my name. So i think the build is not too bad. I am way mediocre in skill, but working on my tr s since open beta in april 2013. So i may say, dont overlook the saboteurs tree!
Greetings from MASK
I took a longish break, then came back earlier this month. I thought of going whisperknife for a change but I only have 12 INT (10 + 2 from levels) since I originally made my guy for the gloaming cut build. I have scavenger set right now and wondering if I can go perma-ish stealth without using lurker's assault like I am able to do with the gloaming cut build. Went to dummies and tried to stay in stealth with just bait & switch and shadow strike but I think I miss the cooldowns by 2-3 seconds.
I take a while killing a single powerful mob, and then a GWF comes by and kill 3 of the same mobs in like 5 secs...
I got a dagger early on so something must be working. I never bothered trying to get the bracers with him since he can't use the armor set with this build.
It might partly be gear though. I've had time to put a lot into him.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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I'll try to use BnS more instead of SS and see if my bar goes up faster that way.