lol take a longer look at your groups though, Rogues facetanking and not dropping aggro with stealth preferring to sit on the bosses and spam duelists flurry non stop, CW's tunnel visioning just as much cos their dmg doesn't net them as much aggro and their cc can be selfishly used to keep themselves safe, GF's tunnel visioning the........wait...I'm starting to sense a pattern here...
You know there is a 20% threat reduction class feature for you heals?
And you know that it doesn't actually work right? I've been in a situation where no matter how much dps people put on adds they literally never break aggro from me as the cleric.
funny i like the cleric because all of there healing comes from dealing damage... not sitting back and staring at green bars. Its even more odd many people say how dull a clerics job is having to stare at healthbars all day, and when they change it someone has to gripe... sorry bud but i LIKE my cleric way it is... no stupid direct healing... just pure raw attacks have healing side effects.
D&D has never been a game that promotes baby sitting, almost every player in D&D carries a good stock of healing potions, and is expected to some degree to take care of themselves. I think this game needs to take that approach where healers arent expected to keep people 100% through the entire fight, where using a potion or two is expected... frankly if they make healers sit in back and spam direct healing all day i'd get bored as ****...
funny i like the cleric because all of there healing comes from dealing damage... not sitting back and staring at green bars. Its even more odd many people say how dull a clerics job is having to stare at healthbars all day, and when they change it someone has to gripe... sorry bud but i LIKE my cleric way it is... no stupid direct healing... just pure raw attacks have healing side effects.
D&D has never been a game that promotes baby sitting, almost every player in D&D carries a good stock of healing potions, and is expected to some degree to take care of themselves. I think this game needs to take that approach where healers arent expected to keep people 100% through the entire fight, where using a potion or two is expected... frankly if they make healers sit in back and spam direct healing all day i'd get bored as ****...
This is the first MMO I've played where the healer gets so much aggro from casting one spell that it's making healing aggravating. As much as I try to manage my heals to limit the threat, it's just beyond ridiculous how badly you can get swarmed within seconds. As much as I love healing, every time I step foot into a dungeon it makes me want to give up on my DC completely.
This is different from EVERY OTHER MMO YOU'VE PLAYED.
Part of the problem here, is that you are expecting the healing class to play like every single other healing class in every other game, and it'd doesn't. It works differently here.
Healing is different. Tanking is different.
I find the healing in this game to be a lot more fun than the "spam quick heal whackamole" of Every Other MMO I've Played(tm). if I weren't having so much fun with my Guardian Fighter, I'd be playing my Cleric more.
I like where cleric is at right now. We just need fixes for threat and maybe a boost to the passive heal on Healing word (make the tics faster) and a slight boost on Sunburst (I'm level 15 so Sunburst is godly shut up).
That and boos the threat that Guardian Fighters put out slightly.
I like where cleric is at right now. We just need fixes for threat and maybe a boost to the passive heal on Healing word (make the tics faster) and a slight boost on Sunburst (I'm level 15 so Sunburst is godly shut up).
That and boos the threat that Guardian Fighters put out slightly.
Threat fixes first and foremost. for both Cleric and GF.
Personally, I have no problem with the DC as a class and healing is fun. The only problem is the adds.
Agreed on both points.
- bpphantom
Grace, Tiefling Devoted Cleric
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. Then leave the rest to Batman."
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aebramsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I just had to laugh when I read this. I've been a healer in most MMOs and the role is so static it gets tedious and boring (MT healing in WoW as a pally for way too long).
This is one of the best healing mechanics I've seen in an MMO that has a dedicated healer (not counting GW2 b/c there is no "healer"). I get to heal/tank and have to be actively moving around in a fight, thank you devs. I'm a huge fan of skill-based games and I love having to manage everything that these fights throw at me and be able to succeed at them, especially when I see people like the OP crying about it... makes it even better.
Mad Dragon was probably one of the most exciting fights for me thus far (lvl 38). Avoiding melee, dodging dragon/caster attacks and healing... I will take that anyday over mashing 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 1, 1, 5, 1 and side stepping now and again.
If people can't handle hectic situations calmly, cleric is above your skillcap.
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lollieMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
For a start (not even touching aggro) Astral Seal should be an aoe, not single target, to throw heals around faster. Everything in this game comes in aoes (all the gazillion adds in the dungeons), so seems ridiculous that you need to target 3 million mobs individually one by one just to distribute that tiny heal to your party.
Personnally i love the healing in this game...i hate sitting there just staring at health bars and doing nothing else...now i can actually fight and debuff and damage and heal my freinds at the same time sitting there castin heal over and over again is stupid go play holy priest in wow and dont whine
For a start (not even touching aggro) Astral Seal should be an aoe, not single target, to throw heals around faster. Everything in this game comes in aoes (all the gazillion adds in the dungeons), so seems ridiculous that you need to target 3 million mobs individually one by one just to distribute that tiny heal to your party.
Astral seal shouldn't be spammed on every mob.... That's ASKING for aggro city. It's the biggest threat generator I've come across Prior to AS.
And it's funny the above mentions a Holy priest *snore*
What we have here is a Discipline priest, if you can play a disco priest, you can rock a cleric in this game.
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butterfayceMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
I've enjoyed playing healer in most MMOs that I've played, but being healer in this game is one of the most unfun things I've ever had the misfortune of experiencing. Putting aside the fact that healing in MMOs is often a thankless task (every group needs a healer, but most groups don't really show any appreciation for your healing; they kind of take you for granted if you do your job properly, and rage at you needlessly if you're not doing it properly), there's a myriad of problems with healing in this game, namely:
1. There are NO direct heals in this game without having to use up Divinity. Most of the so-called "heal" abilities in this game either a) require to you to attack an enemy (Astral Seal, Sacred Flame) or b) require Divinity mode to function as a heal (Forgemasters flame). Even the closest ability to a direct heal (Healing Word), only applies a slow Regen effect on party members. Sure I could switch to Divinity mode for a direct heal, but when there's four other party members all critically low on health, and only 3 divinity charges to use, healing quickly becomes a nightmare. Seriously, who the hell thought this was good game design?
2. On the subject of Healing Word, why is it that I only have a max of 3 charges to use, and there's a 1 second pause between each charge, and when I run out of charges I have wait roughly TEN SECONDS before I can cast it again? IN EVERY OTHER MMO I'VE PLAYED, healers always have at least one spammable DIRECT HEAL ability with no cooldown whatsoever. Why does this game have to be different?
3. The complete lack of groupwide heals in this game. I don't consider Guardian Angel to be a proper groupwide heal since it heals for so little that it's virtually useless in epic dungeons. I guess you might be able to say Astral Shield is a group heal to an extent but it's not because a) it only heals those who are in its area of effect and b) as always, it requires Divinity mode in order to heal.
4. My biggest problem: the excessive amount of aggro that healing creates in this game. I've lost count of the number of times that all the adds would attack me instead of anyone else just for simply casting one healing spell. This of course distracts me from being able to heal the rest of the party because I have to waste time dodging adds. Cue the rest of my party yelling abuse at me like "WHY THE HELL ARENT U HEALING ME IDIOT GOD UR USELESS". Well genius, it's kinda hard to focus on healing you when the mobs are turning me into a human pinata and taking me down. "WELL THEN STOP GOING DOWN IDIOT". Well gee sir, I'd love to stay alive, if it weren't for all the ten million adds who all decided to turn their attention to me in unison, for the immense crime of casting one little healing spell. Adds that YOU proceeded to then ignore to whack away at the boss while the adds murder me with impunity, so it's clearly my fault. Silly me for not realizing that clerics are actually supposed to be tanks in this game, despite the fact that IN EVERY OTHER MMO clerics are supposed to be healers and NOT tanks. I guess Guardian Fighters are just there to relax and look pretty while clerics do all the tanking for them -_-
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go roll a Trickster Rogue and dps to my heart's content. Or just play a different game entirely. Healing in this game is a fool's errand.
This isnt WoW or every other MMO youve ever played; Its Neverwinter. Based, albeit loosely, off D&D rules. There isn't excessive healing and there isn't tanking per say in D&D. While I feel the nuances of aggro maintenance are a little off, I feel the game is pretty close to what a final result should be in the realm of both Healing and Tanking. A single divinity Forgemaster Flame can heal most groups. Healing word is used on cooldown if only to build AP, some builds don't even run it.
In addition, this isn't a game where you can just eat damage and healers will top you off, your friends/group mates must do what they can to heal themselves and/or control the damage intake.
The problem is people playing clerics keep thinking in terms of more traditional healers in RPGs and MMOs; and the second problem is people playing other classes think the same way.
I like playing a cleric with lots of DPS, AOEs and other fun stuff. Spending 90% of your time topping off people's health with direct heals is boring and the reason why so few like to play healers in MMOs -- so I like that change.
But as many have pointed out, the real issue is the aggro and the unhelpful people on your team with tunnel vision, spending all their time fighting the boss while the cleric runs from 10 adds. Not fun and the reason why we're probably seeing a declining number of clerics, at least in the level 20+ range.
wow you guys are funny.. Stop comparing this game to other games..... You as a healer in this game do not need a direct heal.. I never even use that garbage regen heal..... 90% or your healing comes from RMB. Everyone in your party should be attacking some mob so they can get healed... RMB Heals for so much.. Stop thinking that heal8ing is like other games...
First step to being a really good healer.. Put RMB (Seal) and every single mob if there are alot of mobs. The other players in the party don't just attack one mob (focus fire).. Everyone is all over the place attacking everything... If someone in your party is taking damage and there health is getting really low that means that the RMB (seal) isn't on the target that they are fight or that aren't dpsing/attacking a mob with the seal.... Every now and then I use a aoe heal to top off the tank or anyone else thats being primared... I only use my aoe heal while Tab is active. It heals for alot.... That should be all thats needed.. Every player has pots that they can use when there health drops to 10% or lower.. The only time a player in your party is going to need to use a pot is when your fighting the end boss and there are alot of mobs... The lvl 35 and up dungeon boss's everyone will need to use pots just because there are so many adds on boss fights...
I'm usually running ahead of my party so i can have time to put seals on all the mobs before my party starts dpsing... Once the tank runs in and use his taunt all the mobs go to him and what ever mob the party attacks they will get healed... Players who do aoe attacks will get healed even more....
When ever I heal I'm always 3rd or Fourth for DPS and usually Number 1 for mobs kills....
At lower levels is might be a bit tougher to heal, especially when confronted with people that can't dodge, but once you get higher in level and can get paragon feats, it becomes incredibly easy and fun.
These are extremely potent healing abilities that do not compromise your movement (ie. kiting and dodging) at all:
Hallowed Ground with Moon Touched
Divine Astral Shield
Foresight with Benefit of Foresight
Sun Burst + Linked Spirit (sharing defense rating is more damage mitigation)
Divine Fortune (never have an issue with Divine Charges again)
While I do agree that aggro is a bit problematic right now, I don't think it's so bad that it needs a very big adjustment. It just needs a slight tweak, I think.
That might just be me, though, I like dodging, juking and kiting. It makes the game that much more chaotic and exciting, in my opinion. I don't want another game where all I do is spam the same spell over and over, I did that back in EverQuest when you needed 10-man Complete Heal chains to keep tanks up during raids.
Edit: I don't even run Healing Word. I run Sun Burst, Daunting Light and Astral Shield.
I love healing in this game its so easy that its funny... I can put seals on all the mobs then just start dpsing like the rest of my party. Reapply seals when they fall off.... I use 1 enocunter thats consider a heal... It does aoe damage and heals everyone... 10sec cd.. Really good heal and I knock mobs around if my party is taking alot of damage.. That should be the Control Wiz job but they don't even use there control abilitys at the right time... Thats another issue..
At lvl 60 healing a breeze.. You get a OP group shield whice is pretty much OP... Depending on what passives and feats you use you can always have your daily up at all times...
I did the lvl 38 dungeon last night on my rogue.. we were on the last boss where there are alot of adds that doe alot of damage. We wipe once then went in and tried it again... I started looking around at each mob and I noticed that none of them had a seal on them.. I was what the hell is the healer doing.... We were just taking a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> load of damage from these adds and were getting no heals.... I told the **** healer to put seals on all the mobs and spam your atwill that heals and gives us temporary hit points and use your tab when your aoe heal off cd...... We completed it..... You guys really need to use every healing ability that you have access and learn how to use them.. There are a few guides here on the forums on how to heal.. Read them....... Control Wiz some of you just don't no what to do with your abilitys and when to use them..... A control wiz alow can save her entire party from wipeing in a fight... Thats what the control abilitys are for...
Threat is clearly bugged in this game, GFs can't hold it and clerics get it even if standing still doing nothing.
Astral Seal should be an aoe, threat needs to be fixed.
This game isn't going to hold its players, too much happening soon. They need to do things to make the game work better or it's game over.
Think about how many attacks a rogue makes for example, and then how many procs of astral seals will cause on say "duelist flurry" a very common skill used by most rogues if not all for boss encounters, that's some nice healing, but also some nice aggro. I use astral seal sparingly and still get aggro, but if I spam it I am ASKING to be swarmed, no questions about it. If I maximise my effectiveness of sunburst then yeah i'm going to get aggro, but usually I've just gotten in close to another character to heal them with it, so they can then pick up the extra aggro, Forgemasters flame generates very little aggro, heals for a VERY nice amount to those nearby and fits into the discipline priest-esque feeling, spamming sacred flame procs heals and Temp hp (lol discipline shields) for everyone nearby, you're NOT meant to be a HEALBOT. You can't BE a healbot because you won't generate enough Divine power
You're a split hybrid of dps and healing with shielding and some REALLY REALLY REALLLLLY nice buffs, in those instances where you WANT aggro, then I see nothing "broken" about throwing some astral seals around to get you noticed, in fact it's something I consider every time I use the skill. I actually like it how it is.
As for GENERAL aggro, if you're constantly rolling H.O.T's then naturally just as every other MMO, you're going to draw initial aggro from their target of the character being healed and the immediacy of the heals aggro.
Now, the shortcomings of the players who are expecting healbot style play, and the deficiencies of the Guardian Fighter, save for their insanely bad set bonus fail. Are a different story
Between the agro and cumbersome mechanics I shelved my cleric as well.
He's fun to PvP with, but its extremely frustrating for the rest of the game, needing to carry 40 pots at a time and often being completely useless in groups isn't worth the time.
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lollieMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I use astral seal sparingly and still get aggro, but if I spam it I am ASKING to be swarmed, no questions about it.
That's why (on top of the fact every single fight has a zillion adds and individual casts on every mob are impossible) it should be a single cast aoe.
Clerics get aggro doing nothing. The issue isn't actually in the healing, it's in the class. Doesn't matter if you cast heals/aoes/hots or just stand still in a far corner, the cleric is going to have all the aggro.
The only people crying here are bad players that want to play with a thumb up there butts. Get used to actually having to move around and survive a dynamic combat system.
That's why (on top of the fact every single fight has a zillion adds and individual casts on every mob are impossible) it should be a single cast aoe.
Clerics get aggro doing nothing. The issue isn't actually in the healing, it's in the class.
An at will aoe heal? sounds....balanced and involving..... or not...
And you don't get aggro doing nothing, unless a mob see's you and no one else is grabbing it's attention, healing does have a high threat cost, but you're going to be dpsing more often than healing.
The only people crying here are bad players that want to play with a thumb up there butts. Get used to actually having to move around and survive a dynamic combat system.
You can feel free, I can do more, more consistently with half of the aggravation on my CW.
Comments
And you know that it doesn't actually work right? I've been in a situation where no matter how much dps people put on adds they literally never break aggro from me as the cleric.
D&D has never been a game that promotes baby sitting, almost every player in D&D carries a good stock of healing potions, and is expected to some degree to take care of themselves. I think this game needs to take that approach where healers arent expected to keep people 100% through the entire fight, where using a potion or two is expected... frankly if they make healers sit in back and spam direct healing all day i'd get bored as ****...
Part of the problem here, is that you are expecting the healing class to play like every single other healing class in every other game, and it'd doesn't. It works differently here.
Healing is different. Tanking is different.
I find the healing in this game to be a lot more fun than the "spam quick heal whackamole" of Every Other MMO I've Played(tm). if I weren't having so much fun with my Guardian Fighter, I'd be playing my Cleric more.
That and boos the threat that Guardian Fighters put out slightly.
Threat fixes first and foremost. for both Cleric and GF.
definitely.
Agreed on both points.
Grace, Tiefling Devoted Cleric
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. Then leave the rest to Batman."
This is one of the best healing mechanics I've seen in an MMO that has a dedicated healer (not counting GW2 b/c there is no "healer"). I get to heal/tank and have to be actively moving around in a fight, thank you devs. I'm a huge fan of skill-based games and I love having to manage everything that these fights throw at me and be able to succeed at them, especially when I see people like the OP crying about it... makes it even better.
Mad Dragon was probably one of the most exciting fights for me thus far (lvl 38). Avoiding melee, dodging dragon/caster attacks and healing... I will take that anyday over mashing 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 1, 1, 5, 1 and side stepping now and again.
If people can't handle hectic situations calmly, cleric is above your skillcap.
Astral seal shouldn't be spammed on every mob.... That's ASKING for aggro city. It's the biggest threat generator I've come across Prior to AS.
And it's funny the above mentions a Holy priest *snore*
What we have here is a Discipline priest, if you can play a disco priest, you can rock a cleric in this game.
This isnt WoW or every other MMO youve ever played; Its Neverwinter. Based, albeit loosely, off D&D rules. There isn't excessive healing and there isn't tanking per say in D&D. While I feel the nuances of aggro maintenance are a little off, I feel the game is pretty close to what a final result should be in the realm of both Healing and Tanking. A single divinity Forgemaster Flame can heal most groups. Healing word is used on cooldown if only to build AP, some builds don't even run it.
In addition, this isn't a game where you can just eat damage and healers will top you off, your friends/group mates must do what they can to heal themselves and/or control the damage intake.
Threat is clearly bugged in this game, GFs can't hold it and clerics get it even if standing still doing nothing.
Astral Seal should be an aoe, threat needs to be fixed.
This game isn't going to hold its players, too much happening soon. They need to do things to make the game work better or it's game over.
I like playing a cleric with lots of DPS, AOEs and other fun stuff. Spending 90% of your time topping off people's health with direct heals is boring and the reason why so few like to play healers in MMOs -- so I like that change.
But as many have pointed out, the real issue is the aggro and the unhelpful people on your team with tunnel vision, spending all their time fighting the boss while the cleric runs from 10 adds. Not fun and the reason why we're probably seeing a declining number of clerics, at least in the level 20+ range.
First step to being a really good healer.. Put RMB (Seal) and every single mob if there are alot of mobs. The other players in the party don't just attack one mob (focus fire).. Everyone is all over the place attacking everything... If someone in your party is taking damage and there health is getting really low that means that the RMB (seal) isn't on the target that they are fight or that aren't dpsing/attacking a mob with the seal.... Every now and then I use a aoe heal to top off the tank or anyone else thats being primared... I only use my aoe heal while Tab is active. It heals for alot.... That should be all thats needed.. Every player has pots that they can use when there health drops to 10% or lower.. The only time a player in your party is going to need to use a pot is when your fighting the end boss and there are alot of mobs... The lvl 35 and up dungeon boss's everyone will need to use pots just because there are so many adds on boss fights...
I'm usually running ahead of my party so i can have time to put seals on all the mobs before my party starts dpsing... Once the tank runs in and use his taunt all the mobs go to him and what ever mob the party attacks they will get healed... Players who do aoe attacks will get healed even more....
When ever I heal I'm always 3rd or Fourth for DPS and usually Number 1 for mobs kills....
These are extremely potent healing abilities that do not compromise your movement (ie. kiting and dodging) at all:
- Hallowed Ground with Moon Touched
- Divine Astral Shield
- Foresight with Benefit of Foresight
- Sun Burst + Linked Spirit (sharing defense rating is more damage mitigation)
- Divine Fortune (never have an issue with Divine Charges again)
While I do agree that aggro is a bit problematic right now, I don't think it's so bad that it needs a very big adjustment. It just needs a slight tweak, I think.That might just be me, though, I like dodging, juking and kiting. It makes the game that much more chaotic and exciting, in my opinion. I don't want another game where all I do is spam the same spell over and over, I did that back in EverQuest when you needed 10-man Complete Heal chains to keep tanks up during raids.
Edit: I don't even run Healing Word. I run Sun Burst, Daunting Light and Astral Shield.
At lvl 60 healing a breeze.. You get a OP group shield whice is pretty much OP... Depending on what passives and feats you use you can always have your daily up at all times...
I did the lvl 38 dungeon last night on my rogue.. we were on the last boss where there are alot of adds that doe alot of damage. We wipe once then went in and tried it again... I started looking around at each mob and I noticed that none of them had a seal on them.. I was what the hell is the healer doing.... We were just taking a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> load of damage from these adds and were getting no heals.... I told the **** healer to put seals on all the mobs and spam your atwill that heals and gives us temporary hit points and use your tab when your aoe heal off cd...... We completed it..... You guys really need to use every healing ability that you have access and learn how to use them.. There are a few guides here on the forums on how to heal.. Read them....... Control Wiz some of you just don't no what to do with your abilitys and when to use them..... A control wiz alow can save her entire party from wipeing in a fight... Thats what the control abilitys are for...
Think about how many attacks a rogue makes for example, and then how many procs of astral seals will cause on say "duelist flurry" a very common skill used by most rogues if not all for boss encounters, that's some nice healing, but also some nice aggro. I use astral seal sparingly and still get aggro, but if I spam it I am ASKING to be swarmed, no questions about it. If I maximise my effectiveness of sunburst then yeah i'm going to get aggro, but usually I've just gotten in close to another character to heal them with it, so they can then pick up the extra aggro, Forgemasters flame generates very little aggro, heals for a VERY nice amount to those nearby and fits into the discipline priest-esque feeling, spamming sacred flame procs heals and Temp hp (lol discipline shields) for everyone nearby, you're NOT meant to be a HEALBOT. You can't BE a healbot because you won't generate enough Divine power
You're a split hybrid of dps and healing with shielding and some REALLY REALLY REALLLLLY nice buffs, in those instances where you WANT aggro, then I see nothing "broken" about throwing some astral seals around to get you noticed, in fact it's something I consider every time I use the skill. I actually like it how it is.
As for GENERAL aggro, if you're constantly rolling H.O.T's then naturally just as every other MMO, you're going to draw initial aggro from their target of the character being healed and the immediacy of the heals aggro.
Now, the shortcomings of the players who are expecting healbot style play, and the deficiencies of the Guardian Fighter, save for their insanely bad set bonus fail. Are a different story
He's fun to PvP with, but its extremely frustrating for the rest of the game, needing to carry 40 pots at a time and often being completely useless in groups isn't worth the time.
That's why (on top of the fact every single fight has a zillion adds and individual casts on every mob are impossible) it should be a single cast aoe.
Clerics get aggro doing nothing. The issue isn't actually in the healing, it's in the class. Doesn't matter if you cast heals/aoes/hots or just stand still in a far corner, the cleric is going to have all the aggro.
An at will aoe heal? sounds....balanced and involving.....
And you don't get aggro doing nothing, unless a mob see's you and no one else is grabbing it's attention, healing does have a high threat cost, but you're going to be dpsing more often than healing.
You can feel free, I can do more, more consistently with half of the aggravation on my CW.