I think the primary issue that comes to mind in threads like this is that in any single fight rogues should be #1, but in fights with many adds, the total damage done should be similar, between GWF at least since it is designed to be an area of effect secondary striker. So the rogue should say do 200k damage to the boss, with the GWF doing 100k to the boss and 100k to the surrounding mobs, since he can hit them all at once. Possibly the control wizard as well, but I don't know their designated role outside of control (are they supposed to be aoe secondary strikers as well)? The problem as it stands is that even in dungeons with tons and tons of aoe, rogues still tend to double the next player. I haven't seen how things level out at 60 (if they do), but that's my experience.
However rogues only do that for the first few dungeons so who cares about the first 35 levels they go in about a day or two. Past that it evens out when cw and gwf start getting their good feats and abilities. It's an endurance race and rogues burn out In the end.
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natemathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So you're telling me the main DPS class of this game does what it's suppose to be doing?? OMG! Someone call the Devs!
Go back to WoW if you want a game where everyone can do the exact same thing.
Well if wow (and pretty much any other mmo) has taught us anything, it's that dps is the most popular thing to do due to being least stressful and having lowest consequences if failing (so also, the easiest). So if you force a class into one role (healing or especially tanking) people tend to get worn out fast and reroll something less stressful, easier and (debatably) funner.
And i think most of us know what it means to wait for a tank/healer to log on so you can do stuff :cool:
Umm... Thew TR is only good at one thing, and needs to stay this way or there would be no point in playing one.
That's like saying "The cleric heals for too much, nerf the class now because I can't kill it".
HA! That has ALREADY happened, we have a -40% self healing Debuff. We suck at healing ourselves so.. go ahead. kill us.. we wont be able to heal out of it.
EDIT: oh.. wait.. no.. we will be healing the TR who is right behind you.. hahahahaha! you been trickstered.
________________________________________
IGN: DrDoom CLS: Heretic SVR: Atlantis IND ID:1000165G030200060007250S15fb1f
Rogues are supposed to be #1 single target, but in an AOE situation CW or GWF should be on top. The problem is that Rogue is top dps in an aoe situation through singel target damage, while we can aoe to our heart's content and still not even come close to equalizing damage. That's not how it's supposed to work.
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daxtennMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
You even bringing up PvP is a joke and makes this thread forced to be tossed into the Abyss....
There are 5 classes now.... FIVE.. thats it... FIVE... the game is not even finished and all the classes have not even been released...
TR is the only pure DPS class out there right now... get used to it.
I'm just quoting you randomly, as an example for most of the guys who are saying exactly this in this thread.
The problem in balance is not that the Rogue is doing the most dmg, that is okay
The problem is that there is no option in chosing your team, atm an all Rogue team will win against any other composition
same goes with dungeons, you dont even need a tank/healer..
and if you want to tank and spank you roll Tank/Healer/ rest rogues cause its better then any other comp
I understand what you're saying, and I sympathise. But, uh, it's called a Control Wizard. Not a DPS Wizard.
The Trickster Rogue should do more damage, way more damage, than any other class we currently have.
What you should be focusing on is not the simple fact that the Trickster Rogue is out-damaging other classes, because it should.
What you can argue is that the Rogue's out damaging other classes by too large a margin, though, and that the crowd control effects, the stealth aggro drop, etc, are all too much. You may have a point there.
Control Wizards are a dps class as well, the only ranged dps class in the game. I think they should take some of their cast abilities and make them instant casts namely the CC ones.
As far as CC goes, Rogue's trumps control Wizard in PvP, that is the jist of it, no if and or buts, they are the kings of PvP currently, because they have greater survivability, greater one on one damage and better cc in controlling all casters in the game.
It's also too early to be nerfing stuff, try adding more hit points and getting tons of defense gear since that seems to be the only defense against them.
Also, there is no defense against Rogues silence but your team mates.
I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.
Aside from all the commotion over TR. I'm fairly new to the D&D scene and have been doing some research on what to play as my first class. I usually prefer ranged classes, however since TR seems to be the current and only current real damage dealer, what is the current best race, available at OB launch for a TR? I was thinking Tiefling or Half-Orc but leaning more towards Tiefling. Also what paragon route is the best? Thanks.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
You certainly can't say a rogue's AoE is best and quote a daily power ... lol
L20 Cleric, dps spec. Hit a 3.2k AoE at end of Blackwater dungeon fight. Pretty sure rogue's AoE knife attack does that at L50
Rogue are meant to be #1 single target strikers. Can't complain when they actually are.
As for PvP ... rogue classes always have powers that play very well into PvP. Hard to say that about tanks and GWF maybe. Control class does well.
If I had 40% more heals, PvP might be broken too... never really did any during betas, but even as dps spec I was very hard to take down. Of course proper roots and dodges are required ( and strategic retreats :P )
Rogues damage I don't think is out of balance in PVE. Pvp is an animal all its own. So in PVE, yeah the Rogue does damage, LOTS of damage.
How many people here are level 60? I would recommend waiting till lvl 60 and doing end game content before crying for nerfs, from the looks of things, if you are playing a rogue and are very bad at the class you will get 1 hit killed very often.
I do think the GF does need some aggro help in a big way otherwise they might as well rename the GF the Guardian Pylon.
I play a GWF btw and despite all the crying find the class to really be coming into his own in the 30-40's now.
Umm guys arguing over who has better DPS between Rogue, GWF and CW is stupid. Saying Rogues are OP is stupid. If your saying that then you have no understanding about class roles in D&D. This game IS a D&D based MMO hence D&D rules. The TR is doing exactly what it is supposed to do currently, it is supposed to be the highest Dmg class. I there was another Striker class in the game and TR was out performing that then yes you would have something valid to cry about.
Here is the info to back this up:
So in NWO class roles are a lot different then your usual MMO. We are used to the classic roles of Tank, Healer, DPS and Support. In NWO these classic roles are not like what we are used to. I will explain each below and what classes fit what role:
Controller - Controllers focus on affecting multiple targets at once, either damaging or debuffing them, or altering the battlefield's terrain. Some classes, such as Wizards and Invokers, are focused towards ranged combat, while Druids can specialize in ranged or melee combat.
Current Classes - Control Wizard
Defender - Defenders focus on blocking attacking enemies and focusing their attacks on themselves. Defender classes are typically focused on melee combat, however some classes such as Swordmages also have ranged combat capabilities.
Current Classes - Great Weapon Fighter & Guardian Fighter
Leader - Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies. Some Leader classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not.
Current Classes - Devoted Cleric
Striker - Strikers are focused on mobility, dealing heavy damage to single targets and avoiding attacks. Some Striker classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not.
Current Classes - Trickster Rogue
Read that info and understand it. NWO does not have the classic roles we are used to of tank, heals, DPS and support. They are slightly different and for a reason. This game is based off group synergy and classes are balanced around this group synergy as the above mentioned roles. Now that does not mean some classes may be a little off in there respective role ala GWF needed a little more defenses.
The problem is that D&D rules ain't made for a mmo. As for the roles they dont cut it, perhaps after more paths choices they all make more sense. However at the moment the only reason to take a CW into lategame is beacuse its safe. The control is rather useless for pve so far, things could change tho. I feel the GWM got kinda the same issue, more or less same damage as the CW but on the other hand can take more hits but on top of that needs to stay in melee. Anyway point is "ranged strikers" will pwon everything we got now :O, i see no reason to have a CW or GWM or even TR then :O unless they get alot more damage.
The problem is that D&D rules ain't made for a mmo. As for the roles they dont cut it, perhaps after more paths choices they all make more sense. However at the moment the only reason to take a CW into lategame is beacuse its safe. The control is rather useless for pve so far, things could change tho. I feel the GWM got kinda the same issue, more or less same damage as the CW but on the other hand can take more hits but on top of that needs to stay in melee. Anyway point is "ranged strikers" will pwon everything we got now :O, i see no reason to have a CW or GWM or even TR then :O unless they get alot more damage.
Well giving them more damage would not be correct way to fix them. Instead making a GWF have better survival and the ability to tank would be correct fix, maybe allowing them to be a secondary tank to pick up adds or take over if the GF goes down. Buffing CW would also be a mistake imo, instead buff their controlling abilities and make them shine at it like they should.
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dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
Because... she works as intended? The Rogue is supposed to be the highest damage class at the moment, as she's the only pure Striker currently available.
Some people need to read up PnP rules.
pnp rules dont necessarily translate to an actual online game. trust me - i've been playing DIKU MUD's since 1993. some things you follow, others you change and yet others you simply must toss out for the sake of balance.
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dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
Cleric is not OP. In all dungeons you dont need him ni party. Also in PVP rogue kill him v. easy with his OP dps.
lol did you just say a cleric is not needed? because from what i'm seeing of videos of level 60 content that is very much not the case, not unless you wish to use a lot of zen store bought consumables.
ive run tons of dungeons as my CW and never lost to a rogue in overall dungeon damage... but 1 v 1 they are the only class that cant beat me, i wont call for a nerf, imo they are fine since i have tons of CC and they only have dmg, but it's not aoe dmg as far as im concerned, it's single target dmg. and melee sux! who wants to be in melee?
with that said, go ahead and delete GWF, they are useless right now, very low dmg pve, very useless pvp, no point to have one in your party at all... GF do more dungeon dmg than GWF in dungeons ive noticed, it's pretty sad, even seen some clerics beat them...
What is democrazy? It is a government in which the ruling power is given to whoever is most skillful at directing the herd instincts of the largest masses of their most ignorant citizens.
--Nom Anor
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cyadraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited April 2013
I have an idea, instead of nerfing the TR. Lets give a buff to the dumb people who can't play other classes. We will give you your own server to play on.
So, i play a Guardian Fighter. (lvl 32, full dps build, max Critical Strike
and Power)
The classe is very fun but dps not fun ^^
Unfortunately this is the truth.
We are useless! Please do a small adjustment.
Last dps behind the Cleric, Mage, Tank, all the classes. (I don't speak of Rogue, it's not necessary ^^ )
Well giving them more damage would not be correct way to fix them. Instead making a GWF have better survival and the ability to tank would be correct fix, maybe allowing them to be a secondary tank to pick up adds or take over if the GF goes down. Buffing CW would also be a mistake imo, instead buff their controlling abilities and make them shine at it like they should.
Why not letting them actually choose? Different paragon paths, different prestige classes... Why should they all be the same role? They've got a 2h weapon, they should be able to DPS, aoe or single target.
And again, the official wiki itself says the GWF is a PRIMARY DAMAGE DEALER, and SECONDARY DEFENDER, so having them be able to build into either of those is NOT unreasonable.
Comments
Please Nerf Rock, paper is fine.
Sincerely Scissors.
Lol. I was just going to post this.
Also, if you nerf the rogues damage, what else will he have left?
It happened, in Beta 3.....40% less self healing which imho was way overboard. 20% max.
Go back to WoW if you want a game where everyone can do the exact same thing.
Yeah they went overboard with that one.
How does that sound?
Can the thread be closed now?
It sounds pretty stupid. But you probably knew that.
Hopefully.
--Part 1: Spells and Coin (NW-DHM3XQVQK)
--Part 2: A Blind Eye (NW-DI3QTHZGJ)
--Part 3: Dodo's Dinner (NW-DHPA8O253)
-One Shots
--The Wizard of Eldeur (NW-DRKQNE4S7)
As far as i gather, the problem isn't rogues being top dd, the problem is they are top dd by an absurd margin.
Well if wow (and pretty much any other mmo) has taught us anything, it's that dps is the most popular thing to do due to being least stressful and having lowest consequences if failing (so also, the easiest). So if you force a class into one role (healing or especially tanking) people tend to get worn out fast and reroll something less stressful, easier and (debatably) funner.
And i think most of us know what it means to wait for a tank/healer to log on so you can do stuff :cool:
Sounds as stupid as rogues doing 3x the dmg anyone else does. Renders pvp single minded.
And I was being sarcastic, hopefully...
HA! That has ALREADY happened, we have a -40% self healing Debuff. We suck at healing ourselves so.. go ahead. kill us.. we wont be able to heal out of it.
EDIT: oh.. wait.. no.. we will be healing the TR who is right behind you.. hahahahaha! you been trickstered.
IGN: DrDoom
CLS: Heretic
SVR: Atlantis
IND ID:1000165G030200060007250S15fb1f
________________________________________
I'm just quoting you randomly, as an example for most of the guys who are saying exactly this in this thread.
The problem in balance is not that the Rogue is doing the most dmg, that is okay
The problem is that there is no option in chosing your team, atm an all Rogue team will win against any other composition
same goes with dungeons, you dont even need a tank/healer..
and if you want to tank and spank you roll Tank/Healer/ rest rogues cause its better then any other comp
Control Wizards are a dps class as well, the only ranged dps class in the game. I think they should take some of their cast abilities and make them instant casts namely the CC ones.
As far as CC goes, Rogue's trumps control Wizard in PvP, that is the jist of it, no if and or buts, they are the kings of PvP currently, because they have greater survivability, greater one on one damage and better cc in controlling all casters in the game.
It's also too early to be nerfing stuff, try adding more hit points and getting tons of defense gear since that seems to be the only defense against them.
Also, there is no defense against Rogues silence but your team mates.
-Kymos
L20 Cleric, dps spec. Hit a 3.2k AoE at end of Blackwater dungeon fight. Pretty sure rogue's AoE knife attack does that at L50
Rogue are meant to be #1 single target strikers. Can't complain when they actually are.
As for PvP ... rogue classes always have powers that play very well into PvP. Hard to say that about tanks and GWF maybe. Control class does well.
If I had 40% more heals, PvP might be broken too... never really did any during betas, but even as dps spec I was very hard to take down. Of course proper roots and dodges are required ( and strategic retreats :P )
How many people here are level 60? I would recommend waiting till lvl 60 and doing end game content before crying for nerfs, from the looks of things, if you are playing a rogue and are very bad at the class you will get 1 hit killed very often.
I do think the GF does need some aggro help in a big way otherwise they might as well rename the GF the Guardian Pylon.
I play a GWF btw and despite all the crying find the class to really be coming into his own in the 30-40's now.
I whip my daggers back and forth...
Here is the info to back this up:
So in NWO class roles are a lot different then your usual MMO. We are used to the classic roles of Tank, Healer, DPS and Support. In NWO these classic roles are not like what we are used to. I will explain each below and what classes fit what role:
Controller - Controllers focus on affecting multiple targets at once, either damaging or debuffing them, or altering the battlefield's terrain. Some classes, such as Wizards and Invokers, are focused towards ranged combat, while Druids can specialize in ranged or melee combat.
Current Classes - Control Wizard
Defender - Defenders focus on blocking attacking enemies and focusing their attacks on themselves. Defender classes are typically focused on melee combat, however some classes such as Swordmages also have ranged combat capabilities.
Current Classes - Great Weapon Fighter & Guardian Fighter
Leader - Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies. Some Leader classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not.
Current Classes - Devoted Cleric
Striker - Strikers are focused on mobility, dealing heavy damage to single targets and avoiding attacks. Some Striker classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not.
Current Classes - Trickster Rogue
Read that info and understand it. NWO does not have the classic roles we are used to of tank, heals, DPS and support. They are slightly different and for a reason. This game is based off group synergy and classes are balanced around this group synergy as the above mentioned roles. Now that does not mean some classes may be a little off in there respective role ala GWF needed a little more defenses.
Well giving them more damage would not be correct way to fix them. Instead making a GWF have better survival and the ability to tank would be correct fix, maybe allowing them to be a secondary tank to pick up adds or take over if the GF goes down. Buffing CW would also be a mistake imo, instead buff their controlling abilities and make them shine at it like they should.
pnp rules dont necessarily translate to an actual online game. trust me - i've been playing DIKU MUD's since 1993. some things you follow, others you change and yet others you simply must toss out for the sake of balance.
lol did you just say a cleric is not needed? because from what i'm seeing of videos of level 60 content that is very much not the case, not unless you wish to use a lot of zen store bought consumables.
with that said, go ahead and delete GWF, they are useless right now, very low dmg pve, very useless pvp, no point to have one in your party at all... GF do more dungeon dmg than GWF in dungeons ive noticed, it's pretty sad, even seen some clerics beat them...
--Nom Anor
hard for the TR to dodge AoE stuns, i think at level 23 i have 1 day, 1 on 12 sec timer an a targeted on a 8 sec timer.
i can block lots and lots of damage and still attack.
how does a TR do vs multiple boss mobs?
I lol'd ... heartily.
Order of the Silver Dragons - Dragon Shard
Why not letting them actually choose? Different paragon paths, different prestige classes... Why should they all be the same role? They've got a 2h weapon, they should be able to DPS, aoe or single target.
And again, the official wiki itself says the GWF is a PRIMARY DAMAGE DEALER, and SECONDARY DEFENDER, so having them be able to build into either of those is NOT unreasonable.