I love lockboxes, was always fun finding one in LOTRO. And since i only solod, it was my only chance at raid like gear/first age weapons. They need to have a revenue stream, or there will be NO GAME!
Too many people want everything for free, move out of ya "mummys" basement and get a job!
:P
"I cannot be caged! I cannot be controlled! Understand this as you die, ever pathetic, ever fools!"
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kerlaaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Increase the chance of the rare drops and the option to turn them off would work just fine for me. I think the biggest concerns with them is them appearing all over the place and spending hard earned money on a key so you can open the box, only to find an item not even worth the price of the key.
+Increased rare drop chance
+Toggle able option to turn them off/showing up.
I love lockboxes, was always fun finding one in LOTRO. And since i only solod, it was my only chance at raid like gear/first age weapons. They need to have a revenue stream, or there will be NO GAME!
Too many people want everything for free, move out of ya "mummys" basement and get a job!
:P
1) Most lockboxes in other Cryptic games aren't about getting gear. They're about getting access to exclusive content.
2) I'm not sure what you need raid gear to do solo content for. If you want to pay for them that's fine, but there's 0 point in getting the best gear in any game if you're just doing solo content (which generally doesn't require high end gear).
3) As I already mentioned a couple of post ago (which you either didn't read--which is understandable since I was a couple of key strokes away from a wall of text--or you did and are just baiting me), Cryptic being a business but offering their game for free does not automatically follow that their only recourse is gambling. This is a fallacious assumption.
4) People complaining about gambling =/= "give me everything for free". People complaining about gambling = "if you want me to give you money for something sell it to me for a straight, transparent price instead of just the chance to maybe get it". This is also a fallacious assumption and implying that people that complain about lockboxes want everything for free because they don't have a job is inflamatory.
Vision storm, with how much you hate lock boxes, why are you even interested in never winter?
Every post on the CO forums from hou is lockbox this lockbox that.
Shouldn't you know what to expect by now?
Maybe you should look fot other games that fit your preferences instead of hating on this one?
Excuse me, he is not nearly the only one who dislikes lock boxes. It kills immersion for many and is without question gambling. For me - I'll deal, because I will ignore them. For others, they will benefit. Its a source of income for PW/Cryptic. Its also a source of bad rap.
Bottom line, you have no right to "suggest" to someone to go find another game because they dislike lock boxes, or any other part of the game. We all have a right to our opinion.
I'm pretty sure the point of their post was that these items ARE better than what you can get in the game. Or they are exclusive content. We really can't points fingers yet until we find out what will be in those boxes. But if they're offering exclusive items in lockboxes that I can't buy straight across (which seems like the only real use for lockboxes. To entice people to buy keys) than their post is spot on the nose.
To me the part of your post that I have bolded is starkly different than the preceding part of your post. If they are OP they are no less problematic than any other part of p2w, with all of the problems associated with that in fact they may be more so because of the increased cost and uncertainty, which I don't believe is bad for non-OP items but is extremely problematic for OP. As for the exclusive content angle. That doesn't fly with me, just because something costs money(even an indeterminate amount) doesn't mean it’s a problem. Just because someone wants that content doesn't give them the right to that content at the price point in which they desire it(in this case a finite price point versus an infinite price point). Again, you have no right to all non-OP content in the game at the price point you desire it.
If you want to get access to this content (which was the actual context of my post), they are. You are forced to gamble (or to feed the cycle by getting it from someone who did gamble) if you want to get access to that content, because they're exclusive items you can get no other way.
You want access to the content. That’s fine, but you don’t get to decide the terms of your access to content in the game. Cryptic does, if you aren't willing to accept the terms that they present the content, you are perfectly within your ability to walk away. Again, no one is forcing you to do anything except you forcing yourself because you want a certain piece of content. You want everything(or at least the desirable things), but no one owes you those things, or owes you the ability to get them in the way you desire them. This, again, presumes that nothing in the lockboxes is OP. Only in the situation where those who gamble are at a competitive advantage does your scenario even have a hint of force. In so much as there is even real competition in MMOs.
As for the rest that's just you asserting your values over anyone else's. You choose to value power over cosmetics or new game features (such as vehicles they added to CO), as well as view power as the only unacceptable thing to sell or gamble huge sums for. Therefore as long as they don't sell power everything is fine, and anyone that wants other stuff for reasonable, transparent prices rather than gamble away their pay check for the chance to maybe get access to digital goods that don't even have a production cost is being "entitled".
You are right, I have inserted my own opinion into our discussion. I do this because its an MMO where others around me value power over cosmetics. This is a reasonable stance to take because power is the game to most people; cosmetics are not the game to most people. Because most people don’t view the game as a completionist for cosmetics, who needs everything in the game at all times to be happy, at least as far as cosmetics are concerned, they instead view the game through different prisms, PvP enthusiasts, achievement grinders, foundry authors, raiders, etc. It is true that there is a small group of complete completionionists, and specific cosmeticists(if that’s even a word), who will resent not being able to get everything they want. *But what will make most people leave the game is not the presence of cosmetics in lockboxes which is why I speak in terms of power and not cosmetics.
By that same logic, if they had more powerful items (which they have in CO, and the STO lockbox ships are more powerful than ordinary ships, other than the very best end game ones) and OP stuff in the boxes, no one is forcing you to gamble for it. You could very well make due with regular gear and plow through the game's PvE content like everyone else. But if you choose to want to get the more powerful stuff, that's the trade off if you want to have a bigger epeen than everyone else with your desirable gear that other people envy.
If they aren’t as good as the best end game ones they aren’t OP. Because you can get OP things without once touching a lockbox. This whole thing is ultimately about your last sentence, people want the stuff for epeen. Nothing more, nothing less. Cyrptic has every right to make you gamble for your epeen, if it what they desire. You place the value on your epeen, and act accordingly.
And finally, YES, Cryptic is a business--not a freaking online casino!
Having gambling elements in something does not a casino make. Do you think McDonald’s would be a brick and mortar casino because they place random toys in their happy meals that are desirable to collectors of that line of toys(they used to do this I don’t know if they do anymore)?
I never in my entire post implied otherwise. Just because Cryptic is a business it does not automatically follow that if they offer their game for free that they HAVE to make you specifically gamble for the chance to get additional content in order to make money. They could, you know--SELL the damn things outright.
You are right, just because Cryptic is a business doesn’t mean that they have to make you gamble for content. They could in fact sell things outright. But they have chosen not to. That is their right as a business, to determine the method of delivery for their product. Just like no one forces Wizards of the Coast to randomize their Magic: the Gathering collectible cards, and place rarities on them, they also could sell them outright. Or Topps to randomize their baseball cards, who again, could sell them outright, but they randomize them as well. You, on the other hand, have every right as a consumer to not put up with the business practices of a company and demand with your dollar and go elsewhere, if Cryptic’s business model is flawed and people vote with their feet, they will stop doing it. But the truth is, their business model is not flawed, it makes money, so no amount of consternation from you or anyone else is going to change it.
Or did just selling things rather than just the chance to maybe get them went out of style and nobody told me at some point?
Well since baseball cards have been sold in the manner they are now for almost a century(they used to be randomized in cigarette packs in the way beginning.) And Magic: the Gathering is a approaching its 20th anniversary this isn’t some sort of new content mechanism that MMOs just spawned out of whole cloth.
If Cryptic trully is a business and not some online racket, and they want my money they're just going to have to sell me things for a transparent cost because I'm not giving it to them otherwise.
That’s nice for you, I’m sure this lockbox is well thought out, they make money on lockboxes, therefore they include them in their game. They have things they sell for transparent cost as well, but they also have lockboxes, both make them money. Honestly, they probably couldn’t frankly care less about one person’s thoughts about their business methods. All they care about most likely is that their methods are profitable and not overly distasteful such that they lose too many paying customers to make the method negatively affect their bottom line.
Excuse me, he is not nearly the only one who dislikes lock boxes. It kills immersion for many and is without question gambling. *For me - I'll deal, because I will ignore them. *For others, they will benefit. *Its a source of income for PW/Cryptic. *Its also a source of bad rap.
Bottom line, you have no right to "suggest" to someone to go find another game *because they dislike lock boxes, or any other part of the game. We all have a right to our opinion.
I know this wasn't specifically addressed to me, but the problem I had with his particular post here is the suggestion that he was somehow being forced to use lockboxes, as if playing the game, or desiring a given piece of content, isn't a choice. While you are right, everyone has the privilege to complain about things they don't like within a game that they play, and no one really has the privilege to force them not to(although some, such as forum mods do have the power to restrict location of complaining.), that doesn't mean that anyone has to not respond with their questions on that person's motives, or even why their opinion is on its face suspect.
You repeat a point a lot which states, if you don't like lockboxes or cryptics practice with them, go find another game. Instead of jumping to finding another game, wouldn't it be wiser to let people voice their opinions? Pretty sure that's how marketing works. People put out a planed strategy and go with how people react to it... You telling people if they don't like cryptics business practice go find another game, will only financially hurt the game you're trying so hard to defend. Where's the win in that? Wouldn't it be better for people to voice their opinions, cryptic way their options, and go from there?
In 6 months when a strategy is firmly set in place, at that point you can tell people to stop whining, it is what it is. At this point where there's still time to change it, let people speak their piece. Unless you have an actual defense for lockboxes that doesn't focus on "It's your choice". All we are asking for is the ability to shut off seeing them.
Seeing exclusive items available only via lockbox, and the talk of having to watch an AD/Zen exchange rate for the best prices might just turn me off completely from buying anything in this game.
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castagyreMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited February 2013
I haven't played STO since it went FTP. I do play CO, though, and I never bother with lock boxes there. I don't miss out on a thing. Vehicles are interesting, but not needed to play the game. I'd hope lock boxes in this game are similar; fun for some but unnecessary for any.
EDIT: Just a random thought on them, not reading this whole thread.
Remembering Hanlon's Razor can save one a lot on aspirines.
You repeat a point a lot which states, if you don't like lockboxes or cryptics practice with them, go find another game. Instead of jumping to finding another game, wouldn't it be wiser to let people voice their opinions? Pretty sure that's how marketing works. People put out a planed strategy and go with how people react to it... You telling people if they don't like cryptics business practice go find another game, will only financially hurt the game you're trying so hard to defend. Where's the win in that? Wouldn't it be better for people to voice their opinions, cryptic way their options, and go from there?
It is shouting at the wind (just like those Occupy idiots, it changed nothing and cost the cities millions of dollars that the people who actually pay their taxes had to foot the bill for.). Cryptic is not going to change their profitable model to take out locked boxes because some people scream it is blasphemy. I think locked boxes are stupid and am not going to pay to open them, but no matter how much I or anyone rails against them they are not going to change unless it becomes illegal for them to use them. Even with how much I dislike them I think that would be a shame. Now if it would drug companies putting life saving medication in single use bottles and only some of those bottles had the real stuff and everything else was sugar pills and people had to "gamble" for the medication, the ok get outraged. Get high and mighty and scream and yell and get it changed. However it is not, it is a video game. Just don't buy the keys. If it offends someone SOOOOOOOO much they are dong it, then yes go play another game.
In 6 months when a strategy is firmly set in place, at that point you can tell people to stop whining, it is what it is. At this point where there's still time to change it, let people speak their piece. Unless you have an actual defense for lockboxes that doesn't focus on "It's your choice". All we are asking for is the ability to shut off seeing them.
Seeing exclusive items available only via lockbox, and the talk of having to watch an AD/Zen exchange rate for the best prices might just turn me off completely from buying anything in this game.
Again it is not going to change. It has been very profitable for Cryptic/PWE in the past so they will use it again.
Under no circumstances will I pay for even a single lockbox key, no matter what's in them. I don't like them, and I'd prefer they didn't exist in the game. That being said, I don't really CARE about them, and their inclusion doesn't ruin the game for me. I'll just happily destroy the ones I pick up, and accept the fact that they're an unattractive but inevitable aspect of the monetization model.
I would like to see them have the phrase "A tax on stupidity!" included in the description of the lockbox keys in the in-game store and any other marketing for this product. I'd rather see that mandated by law than the sale of such keys outlawed.
Under no circumstances will I pay for even a single lockbox key, no matter what's in them. I don't like them, and I'd prefer they didn't exist in the game. That being said, I don't really CARE about them, and their inclusion doesn't ruin the game for me. I'll just happily destroy the ones I pick up, and accept the fact that they're an unattractive but inevitable aspect of the monetization model.
I would like to see them have the phrase "A tax on stupidity!" included in the description of the lockbox keys in the in-game store and any other marketing for this product. I'd rather see that mandated by law than the sale of such keys outlawed.
I agree with your first paragraph. I mean they are in the game for the most obvious reason and yet people still want to complain about them. This game is FREE people! They have to generate an income somehow and that is just one of the ways that they do it. There is not going to be 1 key to unlock all chest for X amount of dollars either, nor should there be. The main reason the game is free is for people to justify spending some money on it. No sub fee and no money down unless you "Desire a Founder's Pack." Which I do so I am going to purchase one.
See you in Neverwinter.
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bruddajokkaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 447Bounty Hunter
edited February 2013
Is there anything stopping you from using diamonds to buy them?
They have to generate an income somehow and that is just one of the ways that they do it.
I have seen this "argument" used in this thread a few times, and it is illogical. This argument essentially states that Cryptic and Perfect World need to monetize the game, the gambling system makes money, and therefore it is fine. There are no reasons provided as to why gambling is a fair, sustainable method to provide income, just that since the companies need money and this can provide money, it is fine. Great argument, huh?
Ultimately, if one follows that logic, a lot of actions can be justified without any solid reasoning. The point is that we all know Neverwinter needs to make money, and we all know that a gambling system can provide some of that money; this is not what the dispute is about. The dispute is whether such a system should exist, not whether it is effective. Others and I have argued that it is a fairly exploitative system that could be replaced entirely with direct sales, thereby removing the gambling aspect and still providing income. That makes the most sense to me. Instead of having each lockbox that requires a $1 key to open provide a 1% chance to grant a rare mount, sell that rare mount for $100. This way players know exactly what they are spending to get the desired item and there is no room for misunderstanding or problems.
Gambling is a fairly serious activity with a lot of potential issues and I do not feel should be in video games. The fact that it is in video games makes it more dangerous than when it is done at a casino, because in a video game there is competition involved.
"If I keep gambling, I might get a Super Sword of Slaying and then I can dominative PvP!" That is the mentality that causes problems. Sure, the player must ultimately be culpable for his own actions, but a responsible company could not create the scenario for the problem to manifest in the first place.
Anyway, I cannot stop Cryptic and Perfect World from encouraging gambling, but I can certainly state my displeasure with that decision.
I don't consider lockboxes or grab bags to be gambling. You're getting *something*. In gambling, you either win or you lose. If you win, you win. If you lose, you get nothing.
That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with gambling--in game or in the real world. Gambling is not evil. It's not gambling that gets people in trouble, but the lack of willpower to stop when they need to do so.
The problem with Cryptic lockboxes is that they gate highly desirable, exclusive new content (like ships, vehicles, costumes, etc.) behind them that you cannot get ANY other way.
Except they don't. With very few exceptions, those items are tradeable, and thus you can buy them in the Exchange for ingame currency. The problem you have stated doesn't actually exist; thus all your conclusions based on it are suspect.
I don't consider lockboxes or grab bags to be gambling. You're getting *something*. In gambling, you either win or you lose. If you win, you win. If you lose, you get nothing.
You are free to define words as you choose, but that does not make your definition valid. Gambling is the act of wagering resources on an uncertain outcome, which certainly describes the lockbox system. You pay money, this is where you are wagering resources, to open a lockbox containing a random item, which is the uncertain outcome. Whether you are guaranteed something or not is irrelevant; it is a game of chance, plain and simple.
There is absolutely no reason anyone has given as to why the items contained in a lockbox could not just be placed directly in a cash shop with a value that correlates to their rarity so there is no gambling, only purchasing. In fact, the only reason I can think of, which is also the one I suspect explains why they do not, is that players would balk at spending $100 for an item, but over time would easily gamble over $100 to get it, $1 at a time.
It is a psychological thing - spending $1 at a time is easy. It is so easy that you can justify doing it daily, perhaps multiple times per day. It is "death by a thousand cuts" in some sense; some players won't notice how much money they have bled.
Like I said, I would rather have an exact cost for what I want so I can make an informed decision as to whether I want to invest the money to get it, as opposed to essentially spinning a prize wheel and hoping it lands on what I want. Sure, you may get lucky and get what you want the first time, but everyone knows that, in the end, the house always wins, particularly when the prizes they award are intangible and are infinitely reproducible and therefore have questionable value to begin with.
I have seen this "argument" used in this thread a few times, and it is illogical. This argument essentially states that Cryptic and Perfect World need to monetize the game, the gambling system makes money, and therefore it is fine. There are no reasons provided as to why gambling is a fair, sustainable method to provide income, just that since the companies need money and this can provide money, it is fine. Great argument, huh?
Ultimately, if one follows that logic, a lot of actions can be justified without any solid reasoning. The point is that we all know Neverwinter needs to make money, and we all know that a gambling system can provide some of that money; this is not what the dispute is about. The dispute is whether such a system should exist, not whether it is effective. Others and I have argued that it is a fairly exploitative system that could be replaced entirely with direct sales, thereby removing the gambling aspect and still providing income. That makes the most sense to me. Instead of having each lockbox that requires a $1 key to open provide a 1% chance to grant a rare mount, sell that rare mount for $100. This way players know exactly what they are spending to get the desired item and there is no room for misunderstanding or problems.
Gambling is a fairly serious activity with a lot of potential issues and I do not feel should be in video games. The fact that it is in video games makes it more dangerous than when it is done at a casino, because in a video game there is competition involved.
"If I keep gambling, I might get a Super Sword of Slaying and then I can dominative PvP!" That is the mentality that causes problems. Sure, the player must ultimately be culpable for his own actions, but a responsible company could not create the scenario for the problem to manifest in the first place.
Anyway, I cannot stop Cryptic and Perfect World from encouraging gambling, but I can certainly state my displeasure with that decision.
This^ pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter with all the "they must make money" the counter-arguments. And I would add two things:
1) That they don't even have to get rid of gambling items. If they had the items at the store and the lockboxes I probably wouldn't mind (though, I still have personal reservations about gambling) and people wouldn't be raging so much over it. That way at least there is a choice. And having the alternative to pay up a transparent price along with the gambling option at least makes it seem like the gambling option gives people that are willing to gamble the chance to "win" a more expensive item for the low price of only $1. But right now there is no real "winning" to be had--its just keep desperately pouring cash till you (maybe) get it.
2) That having gambling items as the only means to gain access to certain content may actually bring them money from some players, but it will also lose them money from others. So yes, I'm sure that gambling is bringing Cryptic lots of money from the players willing to engage in it. But at the same time is losing them money from the ones that flat out refuse to gamble. I've even stop giving Cryptic money in their other games and I'm not the only one on this, yet I had given them hundreds of dollars before.
Except they don't. With very few exceptions, those items are tradeable, and thus you can buy them in the Exchange for ingame currency. The problem you have stated doesn't actually exist; thus all your conclusions based on it are suspect.
Except that the only way for those tradeable items to find their way into the game is for someone to have gambled for them (there is NO other way), there is no guarantee that I'll have the amout of in-game resources they might ask for in exchange for them (and I'll probably wont since I hate to grind and tend to focus in other activity), and even if I did have that in-game currency I would still be supporting gambling (and the system of gambling as the only means to get certain conten) by buying it from someone that did gamble for it.
So the problem is pretty much real. You're just going by the logic that if you buy stolen goods, for example, you're not participating in theft since you didn't steal it yourself. But there are always consequences and a chain of effects tied to them. Going through a middle man does not necessarily mean you escape them.
Except that the only way for those tradeable items to find their way into the game is for someone to have gambled for them (there is NO other way), there is no guarantee that I'll have the amout of in-game resources they might ask for in exchange for them (and I'll probably wont since I hate to grind and tend to focus in other activity), and even if I did have that in-game currency I would still be supporting gambling (and the system of gambling as the only means to get certain conten) by buying it from someone that did gamble for it.
If it works like it did in STO, you'll get the lockboxes as loot; what you buy is the key. Except that you don't have to pay real money for the key, because you can get those for free from logging in for a few days in a row (see this video).
One thing people are forgetting about lockboxes is that (in Champions Online and Star Trek Online anyway) they come with a "consolation currency" -- Drifter Salvage in CO, and Lobi Crystals in STO. These currencies effectively act as backstops against any losing streaks you may experience with the lock boxes because you are guaranteed to get at least 2 Drifter Salvage or 4 Lobi Crystals per box. You can redeem these currencies in their respective stores, and these stores usually stock equivalents to the premium items at 200 Drifter Salvage in CO and 800 Lobi Crystals in STO.
This effectively sets a ceiling price of premium lock box items at $90 in CO and $225 in STO. If you are willing to spend that kind of money on lock box keys, you have a 100% chance of getting what you want, provided it's in the store.
(Personally that's way too much for me, and I have spent exactly $0 on lock box keys so far.)
You do realise that most ships in STO, usually the jackpot price, cost about $25-30 worth of zen, and that the limit for lobi crystals is about 9 times that? This is the reason they do it, because they will on average get more out of the player using lock boxes than if they just put that ship in the store. Pure and simple it is greed, it is making more profit for doing pretty much nothing. It then gives the impression that that company is lazy, which makes poeple wonder whether they will actually do what is needed for a game?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not evil, I am just cursed.
You do realise that most ships in STO, usually the jackpot price, cost about $25-30 worth of zen, and that the limit for lobi crystals is about 9 times that? This is the reason they do it, because they will on average get more out of the player using lock boxes than if they just put that ship in the store. Pure and simple it is greed, it is making more profit for doing pretty much nothing. It then gives the impression that that company is lazy, which makes poeple wonder whether they will actually do what is needed for a game?
Exactly,
I am aware that Drifter Salvage and a STO equivalent exist. Its just that:
1) I wont necessarily be able to bring up an exhaustive account of every single little thing about lockboxes in every post I make on the issue.
2) They're still related to gambling since they're a by product of the gambling system and the amount of "consolation currency" is still random (2.5 approx. average for Drifter Salvage in CO) so there is still an element of gambling/chance involved.
3) The effective end price for items in the "consolation currency" stores is still ridiculously high for an infinitely reproducible virtual good with no production cost, especially when compared to equivalent items at the store.
This is why you will NEVER see Cryptic post the odds of "winning." Do you really "win" anything when there's no established cost involved? You are buying each item you open, remember that.
One thing people are forgetting about lockboxes is that (in Champions Online and Star Trek Online anyway) they come with a "consolation currency" -- Drifter Salvage in CO, and Lobi Crystals in STO. These currencies effectively act as backstops against any losing streaks you may experience with the lock boxes because you are guaranteed to get at least 2 Drifter Salvage or 4 Lobi Crystals per box. You can redeem these currencies in their respective stores, and these stores usually stock equivalents to the premium items at 200 Drifter Salvage in CO and 800 Lobi Crystals in STO.
This effectively sets a ceiling price of premium lock box items at $90 in CO and $225 in STO. If you are willing to spend that kind of money on lock box keys, you have a 100% chance of getting what you want, provided it's in the store.
(Personally that's way too much for me, and I have spent exactly $0 on lock box keys so far.)
Oh so wait a minute, all the items that you can get from locked boxes are purchasable in a shop for a set price of this "locked box currency" and you are guaranteed to get a set amount of that currency when you open a box? If this is correct this completely invalidates the gambling part of the argument. If this is true then the only thing you are gambling with is to pay less money than the set cost of an item.
I have never opened a locked box in STO or CO. Can anyone else confirm this is how it works?
3) The effective end price for items in the "consolation currency" stores is still ridiculously high for an infinitely reproducible virtual good with no production cost, especially when compared to equivalent items at the store.
Now we see the truth of the argument. Shame for using "gambling is the devil" as the cover for "I think things are to expensive and I want them to be less expansive."
It is not true that there is no production cost to a virtual item it is just paid differently than a physical item. People need to be paid to make the item and someone has to pay to keep the servers running day to day or the item will not "exist" anymore, someone has to be paid to do upkeep on the servers, someone has to pay the power bill of the servers, someone has to pay for the replacement parts for the servers or someone has to pay someone to rent the servers. Just because it is not a physical object and with the click of the button the item can be duplicated does not mean that the duplication of said item costs nothing, maybe not directly, but indirectly it does.
It is still really a gamble, you pay your 100 zen on the gamble you will get that jackpot or 2 tier prizes, other prizes poeple really do not care about, they are purely consolation prize, often something you would not even have purchased normally or use, and has little value. Just becuase "everyones a winner" does not mean it is not gambling.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not evil, I am just cursed.
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
edited February 2013
Seems like this argument is sort of moot; you can pray 5 time a day and use celestial coins to get a key (cost was 5 coins for a key). It's certainly more of a grind than paying bux up front for Zen, but technically, you can sell about 30,000 AD and get a key from the shop (less if you play the market better).
Either way, it's unlike STO or CO where keys are only available via cash.
Now we see the truth of the argument. Shame for using "gambling is the devil" as the cover for "I think things are to expensive and I want them to be less expansive."
It is not true that there is no production cost to a virtual item it is just paid differently than a physical item. People need to be paid to make the item and someone has to pay to keep the servers running day to day or the item will not "exist" anymore, someone has to be paid to do upkeep on the servers, someone has to pay the power bill of the servers, someone has to pay for the replacement parts for the servers or someone has to pay someone to rent the servers. Just because it is not a physical object and with the click of the button the item can be duplicated does not mean that the duplication of said item costs nothing, maybe not directly, but indirectly it does.
Virtual items have no production costs. Production cost is the cost of producing every individual instance of an item. Duplicating virtual iems costs nothing--they already exist as data stored somewhere and the servers don't need to be up for them to exist, only for us to access them. All we pay for is access to it for our use. What virtual items have is development costs. Which is the one time labor cost of designing the virtual item. Once that initial labor cost is covered every single instance of that virtual item sold is pure profit.
No one is saying that people don't need to get paid for development (you are free to quote where I said or implied that from any of my posts). But the cost of these items is far in excess of the $15/mo we used to pay in P2P games under the same argument of "server maintenance" and continued development costs. And the costs of server maintenance as I understand it are highly exaggerated and have gone down since the time this rationale was used to justify subscription costs.
ANet also needs to get payed to maintain their servers as well. Why is it that they can manage with just $60 (sometimes less) per player while Cryptic needs many times more? Cuz GW2 has more players? Perhaps, but then again you may need to ask yourself why is it that GW2 has more players than existing Cryptic games. Reputation and hype? Perhaps. But its probably more than just because of those and even to the extend that reputation and hype might help you'd have to ask yourself how they got them to begin with.
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silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
edited February 2013
There are a few words being tossed around here that I would like to comment on.
1. Gambling: Yes, the lockboxes are a form of "Gambling". This is a game. Technically, all games involve gambling. Note the words "game" and "gambling" themselves and you can see that they come from a common root. Gambling is the act of risking a resource for a chance at an uncertain reward. The resource being gambled with is not always money, but often just risking an in-game resource. Time or your "turn" in a game are some examples of other resources that you might gamble with. The outcome of any game is affected by random chance. In a game with a "house", the house always has the advantage. This is to be expected. So, saying that lockboxes are a form of gambling is not a legitimate argument against them in the context of a game. Saying that you personally do not see the merits of risking your own real-world currency is a valid argument. But not one that makes lockboxes inherently wrong. Just wrong for you.
2. Fair: The contents of lockboxes are determined randomly. If we assume that the same RNG, no matter how flawed, is being used for all players who open one then they are by definition fair. Everyone expends an equal amount of resources in order to have an equal chance at an equal reward. Does everyone always get the best rewards? No. Are the odds of getting the best item in our favor as players? No. That is not equitable, but it is fair. Those two words are often mixed up today. Guaranteed equal opportunity is fairness. Guaranteed outcome where everyone eventually has the same results is boredom in a game (and tyranny in a society). Complaining that something random is unfair in a game driven by randomness and in fact based on the rolling of dice is ridiculous.
3. Greed: This is a word that gets tossed around out of ignorance so much that it has no real meaning. Businesses exist to make a profit. So many people have had their worldview twisted into some strange parody of reality wherein profit and success are bad or unfair. They actually believe that wealth is not created and earned but simply distributed like slices of a pie. No. Wealth is created by individuals and collections of individuals called companies or corporations by providing a good or service at great risk. Their success does not imply that someone else had to fail. Greed is not the pursuit of profit. Most people when asked cannot provide a sensible definition for the word. Here is the best definition I have found: "Greed is the assumption that everything that is placed in your hands is for your consumption." When companies earn a profit, that profit is not solely consumed to feed the growth of that company. It goes to the shareholders who earned it through their risks. To employees in the form of raises and bonuses for their hard work that made it possible. Some of the shareholders and employees may indeed be greedy people who consume these profits without sharing any with their families, churches or communities. That doesn't make the company greedy.
I agree that there should be some way to avoid lockboxes if you do not intend to participate in opening them. I agree that Cryptic has executed them poorly in their other games by making them way too obtrusive and cluttering up our characters' inventories with them. Yes, they are a form of gambling. That's like complaining that a footrace contains some form of running. No, they are not unfair. No, they don't constitute greed on the part of Cryptic/PWE.
Personally, I will probably spend a few bucks on them just for fun. Not because I think they are a good value. In my judgment, they are not. At least they haven't been in their other games. But, I will do it for the same entertainment reasons I occasionally buy a lottery ticket. I will add though that if every lockbox contains something that I actually see as useful and valuable (unlike CO's Drifter salvage with its very high store prices) then I may open more of them.
The bottom line is that they exist because they are more profitable than simply placing items up for sale. People on the internet like to be special unique snowflakes just like everyone else. They want to display things that most others don't have. The randomness of lockboxes makes this more possible. Lockboxes combine the appeal of the item themselves with the fun of gambling and the ego of having something most other players don't. They are a shameless marketing ploy designed to take advantage of human psychology and maximize profits. Shameless, because there is nothing there to be ashamed of.
I would greatly prefer that items just be offered for sale on their own and honestly would pay more over time for these items. But, Cryptic and PWE have already learned that this not true of the overall market simply because of how profitable they have been in their other games.
Virtual items have no production costs. Production cost is the cost of producing every individual instance of an item. Duplicating virtual iems costs nothing--they already exist as data stored somewhere and the servers don't need to be up for them to exist, only for us to access them. All we pay for is access to it for our use. What virtual items have is development costs. Which is the one time labor cost of designing the virtual item. Once that initial labor cost is covered every single instance of that virtual item sold is pure profit.
The cost of the servers is the production cost, because if the servers are not up the item can not be sold. A portion of the cost of the servers is paid for in advance so to sell a new item the company first has to pay for the servers to be up and they are recouping expenses already paid by selling those items. So it is not pure profit. Profit is what you get AFTER you have paid your expenses.
No one is saying that people don't need to get paid for development (you are free to quote where I said or implied that from any of my posts). But the cost of these items is far in excess of the $15/mo we used to pay in P2P games under the same argument of "server maintenance" and continued development costs.
Because if you have 100,000 people paying $15 dollars a month on a sub you are making 1.5 million a month. However if you have 100,000 people playing your game and it is free to play and 80,000 (for whatever reason) of those people are not paying you any money at all you still need to come up with the 1.5 mil a month from the other 20,000 people. Regardless of how many freeloaders are not paying any money you still need to cover all your costs. From experience I would bet a Cryptics f2p game is in the neighborhood of 20% of people paying for 100% of the expenses and 80% of the people paying nothing because they refuse to spend money on a "free to play game" no matter what the cost. Of those 20% that are paying, most likely 50% of them never pay more that $10-$20 a month. So 10% of people are supporting the lions share of the costs and paying huge amounts of money. This is why prices are what they are. Specialty items in ALL walks of life are far more expensive.
And the costs of server maintenance as I understand it are highly exaggerated and have gone down since the time this rationale was used to justify subscription costs.
If you are including server expenses under maintenance you have been lied to. I work for a company that maintains servers for our "product" and server expenses cost more than our payroll. One of the biggest costs in maintaining those servers is electricity. It is STAGGERING how much money in electricity costs there are for running a server farm 24/7/365. There are companies in the US paying more than most 3rd world countries GNP in electricity costs for their server farms.
ANet also needs to get payed to maintain their servers as well. Why is it that they can manage with just $60 (sometimes less) per player while Cryptic needs many times more? Cuz GW2 has more players? Perhaps, but then again you may need to ask yourself why is it that GW2 has more players than existing Cryptic games. Reputation and hype? Perhaps. But its probably more than just because of those and even to the extend that reputation and hype might help you'd have to ask yourself how they got them to begin with.
See above. If EVERYONE was paying for the game then that would make sense, but I would bet that an extremely high percentage of people are paying nothing at all.
There are a few words being tossed around here that I would like to comment on.
1. Gambling: Yes, the lockboxes are a form of "Gambling". This is a game. Technically, all games involve gambling. Note the words "game" and "gambling" themselves and you can see that they come from a common root. Gambling is the act of risking a resource for a chance at an uncertain reward. The resource being gambled with is not always money, but often just risking an in-game resource. Time or your "turn" in a game are some examples of other resources that you might gamble with. The outcome of any game is affected by random chance. In a game with a "house", the house always has the advantage. This is to be expected. So, saying that lockboxes are a form of gambling is not a legitimate argument against them in the context of a game. Saying that you personally do not see the merits of risking your own real-world currency is a valid argument. But not one that makes lockboxes inherently wrong. Just wrong for you.
2. Fair: The contents of lockboxes are determined randomly. If we assume that the same RNG, no matter how flawed, is being used for all players who open one then they are by definition fair. Everyone expends an equal amount of resources in order to have an equal chance at an equal reward. Does everyone always get the best rewards? No. Are the odds of getting the best item in our favor as players? No. That is not equitable, but it is fair. Those two words are often mixed up today. Guaranteed equal opportunity is fairness. Guaranteed outcome where everyone eventually has the same results is boredom in a game (and tyranny in a society). Complaining that something random is unfair in a game driven by randomness and in fact based on the rolling of dice is ridiculous.
3. Greed: This is a word that gets tossed around out of ignorance so much that it has no real meaning. Businesses exist to make a profit. So many people have had their worldview twisted into some strange parody of reality wherein profit and success are bad or unfair. They actually believe that wealth is not created and earned but simply distributed like slices of a pie. No. Wealth is created by individuals and collections of individuals called companies or corporations by providing a good or service at great risk. Their success does not imply that someone else had to fail. Greed is not the pursuit of profit. Most people when asked cannot provide a sensible definition for the word. Here is the best definition I have found: "Greed is the assumption that everything that is placed in your hands is for your consumption." When companies earn a profit, that profit is not solely consumed to feed the growth of that company. It goes to the shareholders who earned it through their risks. To employees in the form of raises and bonuses for their hard work that made it possible. Some of the shareholders and employees may indeed be greedy people who consume these profits without sharing any with their families, churches or communities. That doesn't make the company greedy.
I agree that there should be some way to avoid lockboxes if you do not intend to participate in opening them. I agree that Cryptic has executed them poorly in their other games by making them way too obtrusive and cluttering up our characters' inventories with them. Yes, they are a form of gambling. That's like complaining that a footrace contains some form of running. No, they are not unfair. No, they don't constitute greed on the part of Cryptic/PWE.
Personally, I will probably spend a few bucks on them just for fun. Not because I think they are a good value. In my judgment, they are not. At least they haven't been in their other games. But, I will do it for the same entertainment reasons I occasionally buy a lottery ticket. I will add though that if every lockbox contains something that I actually see as useful and valuable (unlike CO's Drifter salvage with its very high store prices) then I may open more of them.
The bottom line is that they exist because they are more profitable than simply placing items up for sale. People on the internet like to be special unique snowflakes just like everyone else. They want to display things that most others don't have. The randomness of lockboxes makes this more possible. Lockboxes combine the appeal of the item themselves with the fun of gambling and the ego of having something most other players don't. They are a shameless marketing ploy designed to take advantage of human psychology and maximize profits. Shameless, because there is nothing there to be ashamed of.
I would greatly prefer that items just be offered for sale on their own and honestly would pay more over time for these items. But, Cryptic and PWE have already learned that this not true of the overall market simply because of how profitable they have been in their other games.
^^^ this was awesome. Brought a tear to my eye. Especially the greed section.
Comments
Too many people want everything for free, move out of ya "mummys" basement and get a job!
:P
+Increased rare drop chance
+Toggle able option to turn them off/showing up.
1) Most lockboxes in other Cryptic games aren't about getting gear. They're about getting access to exclusive content.
2) I'm not sure what you need raid gear to do solo content for. If you want to pay for them that's fine, but there's 0 point in getting the best gear in any game if you're just doing solo content (which generally doesn't require high end gear).
3) As I already mentioned a couple of post ago (which you either didn't read--which is understandable since I was a couple of key strokes away from a wall of text--or you did and are just baiting me), Cryptic being a business but offering their game for free does not automatically follow that their only recourse is gambling. This is a fallacious assumption.
4) People complaining about gambling =/= "give me everything for free". People complaining about gambling = "if you want me to give you money for something sell it to me for a straight, transparent price instead of just the chance to maybe get it". This is also a fallacious assumption and implying that people that complain about lockboxes want everything for free because they don't have a job is inflamatory.
Every post on the CO forums from hou is lockbox this lockbox that.
Shouldn't you know what to expect by now?
Maybe you should look fot other games that fit your preferences instead of hating on this one?
Excuse me, he is not nearly the only one who dislikes lock boxes. It kills immersion for many and is without question gambling. For me - I'll deal, because I will ignore them. For others, they will benefit. Its a source of income for PW/Cryptic. Its also a source of bad rap.
Bottom line, you have no right to "suggest" to someone to go find another game because they dislike lock boxes, or any other part of the game. We all have a right to our opinion.
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To me the part of your post that I have bolded is starkly different than the preceding part of your post. If they are OP they are no less problematic than any other part of p2w, with all of the problems associated with that in fact they may be more so because of the increased cost and uncertainty, which I don't believe is bad for non-OP items but is extremely problematic for OP. As for the exclusive content angle. That doesn't fly with me, just because something costs money(even an indeterminate amount) doesn't mean it’s a problem. Just because someone wants that content doesn't give them the right to that content at the price point in which they desire it(in this case a finite price point versus an infinite price point). Again, you have no right to all non-OP content in the game at the price point you desire it.
You want access to the content. That’s fine, but you don’t get to decide the terms of your access to content in the game. Cryptic does, if you aren't willing to accept the terms that they present the content, you are perfectly within your ability to walk away. Again, no one is forcing you to do anything except you forcing yourself because you want a certain piece of content. You want everything(or at least the desirable things), but no one owes you those things, or owes you the ability to get them in the way you desire them. This, again, presumes that nothing in the lockboxes is OP. Only in the situation where those who gamble are at a competitive advantage does your scenario even have a hint of force. In so much as there is even real competition in MMOs.
You are right, I have inserted my own opinion into our discussion. I do this because its an MMO where others around me value power over cosmetics. This is a reasonable stance to take because power is the game to most people; cosmetics are not the game to most people. Because most people don’t view the game as a completionist for cosmetics, who needs everything in the game at all times to be happy, at least as far as cosmetics are concerned, they instead view the game through different prisms, PvP enthusiasts, achievement grinders, foundry authors, raiders, etc. It is true that there is a small group of complete completionionists, and specific cosmeticists(if that’s even a word), who will resent not being able to get everything they want. *But what will make most people leave the game is not the presence of cosmetics in lockboxes which is why I speak in terms of power and not cosmetics.
If they aren’t as good as the best end game ones they aren’t OP. Because you can get OP things without once touching a lockbox. This whole thing is ultimately about your last sentence, people want the stuff for epeen. Nothing more, nothing less. Cyrptic has every right to make you gamble for your epeen, if it what they desire. You place the value on your epeen, and act accordingly.
Having gambling elements in something does not a casino make. Do you think McDonald’s would be a brick and mortar casino because they place random toys in their happy meals that are desirable to collectors of that line of toys(they used to do this I don’t know if they do anymore)?
You are right, just because Cryptic is a business doesn’t mean that they have to make you gamble for content. They could in fact sell things outright. But they have chosen not to. That is their right as a business, to determine the method of delivery for their product. Just like no one forces Wizards of the Coast to randomize their Magic: the Gathering collectible cards, and place rarities on them, they also could sell them outright. Or Topps to randomize their baseball cards, who again, could sell them outright, but they randomize them as well. You, on the other hand, have every right as a consumer to not put up with the business practices of a company and demand with your dollar and go elsewhere, if Cryptic’s business model is flawed and people vote with their feet, they will stop doing it. But the truth is, their business model is not flawed, it makes money, so no amount of consternation from you or anyone else is going to change it.
Well since baseball cards have been sold in the manner they are now for almost a century(they used to be randomized in cigarette packs in the way beginning.) And Magic: the Gathering is a approaching its 20th anniversary this isn’t some sort of new content mechanism that MMOs just spawned out of whole cloth.
That’s nice for you, I’m sure this lockbox is well thought out, they make money on lockboxes, therefore they include them in their game. They have things they sell for transparent cost as well, but they also have lockboxes, both make them money. Honestly, they probably couldn’t frankly care less about one person’s thoughts about their business methods. All they care about most likely is that their methods are profitable and not overly distasteful such that they lose too many paying customers to make the method negatively affect their bottom line.
I know this wasn't specifically addressed to me, but the problem I had with his particular post here is the suggestion that he was somehow being forced to use lockboxes, as if playing the game, or desiring a given piece of content, isn't a choice. While you are right, everyone has the privilege to complain about things they don't like within a game that they play, and no one really has the privilege to force them not to(although some, such as forum mods do have the power to restrict location of complaining.), that doesn't mean that anyone has to not respond with their questions on that person's motives, or even why their opinion is on its face suspect.
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In 6 months when a strategy is firmly set in place, at that point you can tell people to stop whining, it is what it is. At this point where there's still time to change it, let people speak their piece. Unless you have an actual defense for lockboxes that doesn't focus on "It's your choice". All we are asking for is the ability to shut off seeing them.
Seeing exclusive items available only via lockbox, and the talk of having to watch an AD/Zen exchange rate for the best prices might just turn me off completely from buying anything in this game.
EDIT: Just a random thought on them, not reading this whole thread.
It is shouting at the wind (just like those Occupy idiots, it changed nothing and cost the cities millions of dollars that the people who actually pay their taxes had to foot the bill for.). Cryptic is not going to change their profitable model to take out locked boxes because some people scream it is blasphemy. I think locked boxes are stupid and am not going to pay to open them, but no matter how much I or anyone rails against them they are not going to change unless it becomes illegal for them to use them. Even with how much I dislike them I think that would be a shame. Now if it would drug companies putting life saving medication in single use bottles and only some of those bottles had the real stuff and everything else was sugar pills and people had to "gamble" for the medication, the ok get outraged. Get high and mighty and scream and yell and get it changed. However it is not, it is a video game. Just don't buy the keys. If it offends someone SOOOOOOOO much they are dong it, then yes go play another game.
See above re: Shouting at the wind.
Again it is not going to change. It has been very profitable for Cryptic/PWE in the past so they will use it again.
I would like to see them have the phrase "A tax on stupidity!" included in the description of the lockbox keys in the in-game store and any other marketing for this product. I'd rather see that mandated by law than the sale of such keys outlawed.
I agree with your first paragraph. I mean they are in the game for the most obvious reason and yet people still want to complain about them. This game is FREE people! They have to generate an income somehow and that is just one of the ways that they do it. There is not going to be 1 key to unlock all chest for X amount of dollars either, nor should there be. The main reason the game is free is for people to justify spending some money on it. No sub fee and no money down unless you "Desire a Founder's Pack." Which I do so I am going to purchase one.
See you in Neverwinter.
I have seen this "argument" used in this thread a few times, and it is illogical. This argument essentially states that Cryptic and Perfect World need to monetize the game, the gambling system makes money, and therefore it is fine. There are no reasons provided as to why gambling is a fair, sustainable method to provide income, just that since the companies need money and this can provide money, it is fine. Great argument, huh?
Ultimately, if one follows that logic, a lot of actions can be justified without any solid reasoning. The point is that we all know Neverwinter needs to make money, and we all know that a gambling system can provide some of that money; this is not what the dispute is about. The dispute is whether such a system should exist, not whether it is effective. Others and I have argued that it is a fairly exploitative system that could be replaced entirely with direct sales, thereby removing the gambling aspect and still providing income. That makes the most sense to me. Instead of having each lockbox that requires a $1 key to open provide a 1% chance to grant a rare mount, sell that rare mount for $100. This way players know exactly what they are spending to get the desired item and there is no room for misunderstanding or problems.
Gambling is a fairly serious activity with a lot of potential issues and I do not feel should be in video games. The fact that it is in video games makes it more dangerous than when it is done at a casino, because in a video game there is competition involved.
"If I keep gambling, I might get a Super Sword of Slaying and then I can dominative PvP!" That is the mentality that causes problems. Sure, the player must ultimately be culpable for his own actions, but a responsible company could not create the scenario for the problem to manifest in the first place.
Anyway, I cannot stop Cryptic and Perfect World from encouraging gambling, but I can certainly state my displeasure with that decision.
That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with gambling--in game or in the real world. Gambling is not evil. It's not gambling that gets people in trouble, but the lack of willpower to stop when they need to do so.
Lockboxes are fine.
Except they don't. With very few exceptions, those items are tradeable, and thus you can buy them in the Exchange for ingame currency. The problem you have stated doesn't actually exist; thus all your conclusions based on it are suspect.
You are free to define words as you choose, but that does not make your definition valid. Gambling is the act of wagering resources on an uncertain outcome, which certainly describes the lockbox system. You pay money, this is where you are wagering resources, to open a lockbox containing a random item, which is the uncertain outcome. Whether you are guaranteed something or not is irrelevant; it is a game of chance, plain and simple.
There is absolutely no reason anyone has given as to why the items contained in a lockbox could not just be placed directly in a cash shop with a value that correlates to their rarity so there is no gambling, only purchasing. In fact, the only reason I can think of, which is also the one I suspect explains why they do not, is that players would balk at spending $100 for an item, but over time would easily gamble over $100 to get it, $1 at a time.
It is a psychological thing - spending $1 at a time is easy. It is so easy that you can justify doing it daily, perhaps multiple times per day. It is "death by a thousand cuts" in some sense; some players won't notice how much money they have bled.
Like I said, I would rather have an exact cost for what I want so I can make an informed decision as to whether I want to invest the money to get it, as opposed to essentially spinning a prize wheel and hoping it lands on what I want. Sure, you may get lucky and get what you want the first time, but everyone knows that, in the end, the house always wins, particularly when the prizes they award are intangible and are infinitely reproducible and therefore have questionable value to begin with.
This^ pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter with all the "they must make money" the counter-arguments. And I would add two things:
1) That they don't even have to get rid of gambling items. If they had the items at the store and the lockboxes I probably wouldn't mind (though, I still have personal reservations about gambling) and people wouldn't be raging so much over it. That way at least there is a choice. And having the alternative to pay up a transparent price along with the gambling option at least makes it seem like the gambling option gives people that are willing to gamble the chance to "win" a more expensive item for the low price of only $1. But right now there is no real "winning" to be had--its just keep desperately pouring cash till you (maybe) get it.
2) That having gambling items as the only means to gain access to certain content may actually bring them money from some players, but it will also lose them money from others. So yes, I'm sure that gambling is bringing Cryptic lots of money from the players willing to engage in it. But at the same time is losing them money from the ones that flat out refuse to gamble. I've even stop giving Cryptic money in their other games and I'm not the only one on this, yet I had given them hundreds of dollars before.
Except that the only way for those tradeable items to find their way into the game is for someone to have gambled for them (there is NO other way), there is no guarantee that I'll have the amout of in-game resources they might ask for in exchange for them (and I'll probably wont since I hate to grind and tend to focus in other activity), and even if I did have that in-game currency I would still be supporting gambling (and the system of gambling as the only means to get certain conten) by buying it from someone that did gamble for it.
So the problem is pretty much real. You're just going by the logic that if you buy stolen goods, for example, you're not participating in theft since you didn't steal it yourself. But there are always consequences and a chain of effects tied to them. Going through a middle man does not necessarily mean you escape them.
This effectively sets a ceiling price of premium lock box items at $90 in CO and $225 in STO. If you are willing to spend that kind of money on lock box keys, you have a 100% chance of getting what you want, provided it's in the store.
(Personally that's way too much for me, and I have spent exactly $0 on lock box keys so far.)
Exactly,
I am aware that Drifter Salvage and a STO equivalent exist. Its just that:
1) I wont necessarily be able to bring up an exhaustive account of every single little thing about lockboxes in every post I make on the issue.
2) They're still related to gambling since they're a by product of the gambling system and the amount of "consolation currency" is still random (2.5 approx. average for Drifter Salvage in CO) so there is still an element of gambling/chance involved.
3) The effective end price for items in the "consolation currency" stores is still ridiculously high for an infinitely reproducible virtual good with no production cost, especially when compared to equivalent items at the store.
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Oh so wait a minute, all the items that you can get from locked boxes are purchasable in a shop for a set price of this "locked box currency" and you are guaranteed to get a set amount of that currency when you open a box? If this is correct this completely invalidates the gambling part of the argument. If this is true then the only thing you are gambling with is to pay less money than the set cost of an item.
I have never opened a locked box in STO or CO. Can anyone else confirm this is how it works?
Now we see the truth of the argument. Shame for using "gambling is the devil" as the cover for "I think things are to expensive and I want them to be less expansive."
It is not true that there is no production cost to a virtual item it is just paid differently than a physical item. People need to be paid to make the item and someone has to pay to keep the servers running day to day or the item will not "exist" anymore, someone has to be paid to do upkeep on the servers, someone has to pay the power bill of the servers, someone has to pay for the replacement parts for the servers or someone has to pay someone to rent the servers. Just because it is not a physical object and with the click of the button the item can be duplicated does not mean that the duplication of said item costs nothing, maybe not directly, but indirectly it does.
Either way, it's unlike STO or CO where keys are only available via cash.
No. Those are separate items that can only be purchased only with "consolation price" currency randomly gained from lockboxes.
Virtual items have no production costs. Production cost is the cost of producing every individual instance of an item. Duplicating virtual iems costs nothing--they already exist as data stored somewhere and the servers don't need to be up for them to exist, only for us to access them. All we pay for is access to it for our use. What virtual items have is development costs. Which is the one time labor cost of designing the virtual item. Once that initial labor cost is covered every single instance of that virtual item sold is pure profit.
No one is saying that people don't need to get paid for development (you are free to quote where I said or implied that from any of my posts). But the cost of these items is far in excess of the $15/mo we used to pay in P2P games under the same argument of "server maintenance" and continued development costs. And the costs of server maintenance as I understand it are highly exaggerated and have gone down since the time this rationale was used to justify subscription costs.
ANet also needs to get payed to maintain their servers as well. Why is it that they can manage with just $60 (sometimes less) per player while Cryptic needs many times more? Cuz GW2 has more players? Perhaps, but then again you may need to ask yourself why is it that GW2 has more players than existing Cryptic games. Reputation and hype? Perhaps. But its probably more than just because of those and even to the extend that reputation and hype might help you'd have to ask yourself how they got them to begin with.
1. Gambling: Yes, the lockboxes are a form of "Gambling". This is a game. Technically, all games involve gambling. Note the words "game" and "gambling" themselves and you can see that they come from a common root. Gambling is the act of risking a resource for a chance at an uncertain reward. The resource being gambled with is not always money, but often just risking an in-game resource. Time or your "turn" in a game are some examples of other resources that you might gamble with. The outcome of any game is affected by random chance. In a game with a "house", the house always has the advantage. This is to be expected. So, saying that lockboxes are a form of gambling is not a legitimate argument against them in the context of a game. Saying that you personally do not see the merits of risking your own real-world currency is a valid argument. But not one that makes lockboxes inherently wrong. Just wrong for you.
2. Fair: The contents of lockboxes are determined randomly. If we assume that the same RNG, no matter how flawed, is being used for all players who open one then they are by definition fair. Everyone expends an equal amount of resources in order to have an equal chance at an equal reward. Does everyone always get the best rewards? No. Are the odds of getting the best item in our favor as players? No. That is not equitable, but it is fair. Those two words are often mixed up today. Guaranteed equal opportunity is fairness. Guaranteed outcome where everyone eventually has the same results is boredom in a game (and tyranny in a society). Complaining that something random is unfair in a game driven by randomness and in fact based on the rolling of dice is ridiculous.
3. Greed: This is a word that gets tossed around out of ignorance so much that it has no real meaning. Businesses exist to make a profit. So many people have had their worldview twisted into some strange parody of reality wherein profit and success are bad or unfair. They actually believe that wealth is not created and earned but simply distributed like slices of a pie. No. Wealth is created by individuals and collections of individuals called companies or corporations by providing a good or service at great risk. Their success does not imply that someone else had to fail. Greed is not the pursuit of profit. Most people when asked cannot provide a sensible definition for the word. Here is the best definition I have found: "Greed is the assumption that everything that is placed in your hands is for your consumption." When companies earn a profit, that profit is not solely consumed to feed the growth of that company. It goes to the shareholders who earned it through their risks. To employees in the form of raises and bonuses for their hard work that made it possible. Some of the shareholders and employees may indeed be greedy people who consume these profits without sharing any with their families, churches or communities. That doesn't make the company greedy.
I agree that there should be some way to avoid lockboxes if you do not intend to participate in opening them. I agree that Cryptic has executed them poorly in their other games by making them way too obtrusive and cluttering up our characters' inventories with them. Yes, they are a form of gambling. That's like complaining that a footrace contains some form of running. No, they are not unfair. No, they don't constitute greed on the part of Cryptic/PWE.
Personally, I will probably spend a few bucks on them just for fun. Not because I think they are a good value. In my judgment, they are not. At least they haven't been in their other games. But, I will do it for the same entertainment reasons I occasionally buy a lottery ticket. I will add though that if every lockbox contains something that I actually see as useful and valuable (unlike CO's Drifter salvage with its very high store prices) then I may open more of them.
The bottom line is that they exist because they are more profitable than simply placing items up for sale. People on the internet like to be special unique snowflakes just like everyone else. They want to display things that most others don't have. The randomness of lockboxes makes this more possible. Lockboxes combine the appeal of the item themselves with the fun of gambling and the ego of having something most other players don't. They are a shameless marketing ploy designed to take advantage of human psychology and maximize profits. Shameless, because there is nothing there to be ashamed of.
I would greatly prefer that items just be offered for sale on their own and honestly would pay more over time for these items. But, Cryptic and PWE have already learned that this not true of the overall market simply because of how profitable they have been in their other games.
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The cost of the servers is the production cost, because if the servers are not up the item can not be sold. A portion of the cost of the servers is paid for in advance so to sell a new item the company first has to pay for the servers to be up and they are recouping expenses already paid by selling those items. So it is not pure profit. Profit is what you get AFTER you have paid your expenses.
Because if you have 100,000 people paying $15 dollars a month on a sub you are making 1.5 million a month. However if you have 100,000 people playing your game and it is free to play and 80,000 (for whatever reason) of those people are not paying you any money at all you still need to come up with the 1.5 mil a month from the other 20,000 people. Regardless of how many freeloaders are not paying any money you still need to cover all your costs. From experience I would bet a Cryptics f2p game is in the neighborhood of 20% of people paying for 100% of the expenses and 80% of the people paying nothing because they refuse to spend money on a "free to play game" no matter what the cost. Of those 20% that are paying, most likely 50% of them never pay more that $10-$20 a month. So 10% of people are supporting the lions share of the costs and paying huge amounts of money. This is why prices are what they are. Specialty items in ALL walks of life are far more expensive.
If you are including server expenses under maintenance you have been lied to. I work for a company that maintains servers for our "product" and server expenses cost more than our payroll. One of the biggest costs in maintaining those servers is electricity. It is STAGGERING how much money in electricity costs there are for running a server farm 24/7/365. There are companies in the US paying more than most 3rd world countries GNP in electricity costs for their server farms.
See above. If EVERYONE was paying for the game then that would make sense, but I would bet that an extremely high percentage of people are paying nothing at all.
^^^ this was awesome. Brought a tear to my eye. Especially the greed section.