My guess is there will be no evil gods and the list will probably stay like that considering those are the standard Gods in the 4.0 FR players handbook.
Would be nice if they let us worship some evil Gods though considering it's an RPG
My guess is there will be no evil gods and the list will probably stay like that considering those are the standard Gods in the 4.0 FR players handbook.
Would be nice if they let us worship some evil Gods though considering it's an RPG
????
List like what? Is it relevant to this thread? This thread has all evil deities like cyric, Shar etc.
What deity would a neutral evil (I don't think thats 4e, but deal with it. I like neutral evil for some characters) wizard worship? Lets say its an invoker or something.
I hope its not Shar. I hate Shar.
Is Mystra still an option?
maegoshMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Any leads on Clerics being able to worship dead gods (i.e. the old prestige class)? That is if we can choose a diety to worship at all as a game mechanic and not just as an aspect of RP or our backgrounds? I for one will forever be in love with Aupenser (still sleeping? good lord...). Speaking of that Psionics in general can someone update me on 4e psionics; yea or nay?
I see. What about my first question; are there any hints about possible worship of dead/forgotten dieties?
No public information regarding if it is possible to do so in game has been revealed yet.
According to the Lore however, if you worship dead deity or refuse to accept the new aspect of old deity, you can do so but it will not yield you divine powers. So if you worship Lathander and refuse to accept Amanautor as Lathander's new aspect - you will not get divine powers. However true belief is not required. You can get divine powers by just lay-worshiping Lathander(lip service to deity). However, refusal to do even that means you will not get divine powers.
Worshiping Mystra will not grant you powers either - but if you are a Simbarch (a follower of Simbul) you can use Silverfire and Mystra-specific spells.
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maegoshMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I could have sworn there was a C/PrC in earlier editions which allowed for the woship of a dead/forgotten god... Maybe I'm way off base. If I'm not however, was it not coverd by a current PP?
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited February 2013
Just by being ordained by any church, grants you Divine Power. Gods no longer grant or deny access to Divine Power in the current state of the lawless Weave. Prior, this was something Mystra governed but now in her incoherent and dormant state, her laws upon the Weave are no longer in place, which is what caused it to burst its bonds, and lead to the Spellplague which reshaped the Planes. Many gods themselves were affected by the power she granted or denied them. Some gods became more powerful and some less. Even all the Chosens of the Gods instantly became demi-gods, now called Exarchs, due to the power she was withholding from them.
In the case of dead god, let me use Elistrasee as an example:
As long as you were ordained by the priesthood of Eilistrasee prior to her death, you will still be able to use Divine Power in her name and worship her as though she were still around. However, a new person wanting to worship her would not be able to be ordained into he clergy to gain divine power simply because her clergy no longer exists in a state to grant a new priest divine power.
Once you are ordained by a clergy, you have Divine Power for the rest of your life. You may choose to stop worshiping your deity or worship them in a different way, it doesn't matter. However, you can trust that if you were to start flaunting the ways of your god in ways not sanctioned, the God will be very upset and probably seek retribution upon you.
From the 4e Forgotten Realms Handbook:
As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant you powers. Instead, your ordination or investiture as a cleric grants you the ability to wield divine powers. Clerics are usually formally ordained by existing clerics who perform a special ritual to do so, but on rare occasions a deity moves to directly ordain a worthy worshiper with-out any sort of priestly hierarchy involved. What you do with your powers once you are ordained is up to you, although if you flagrantly and openly defy your deity's tenets, you quickly earn the enmity of the faithful.
I could have sworn there was a C/PrC in earlier editions which allowed for the woship of a dead/forgotten god... Maybe I'm way off base. If I'm not however, was it not coverd by a current PP?
What you are probably talking about (if I am not reading too much to it) is the PP of Psions which uses the power of dead deity to become deity-like powerful themself.
However, that does not have anything to do with deity or worship - it is just siphoning the power of dead and forgotten deities.
EDIT:
Not Paragon I think, but Epic.
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providenttMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I love how they separate Clerics and Invokers in 4e by the source of their power. Like you say Clerics gain their power from ritualistic prayer and faith, Invokers are more like divine sorcerers. They are the 'chosen' of their Gods, touched in a very minor way, often as a result of immense training. They are the hands that direct the will of their God.
I had an Invoker in a 4e Ravenloft game (which was DM'ed by a Wizards dev. Pretty great game) which remains perhaps my favourite D&D character. He was an Invoker of Ioun (God of Knowledge), and he would have get strange, cryptic, divine visions that he would have to piece together to try to make sense of it and figure out what Ioun wanted of him. One day he stopped getting visions. No matter what he tried or how long he waited he just stopped getting instructions from his God. This caused him to have a kind of mental breakdown since he lived most of his life following the guidance of Ioun and without it he was lost. He was convinced that something dark and powerful was blocking his connection so he traveled the continent, trying to find this darkness. Then he found Ravenloft. *queue start of campaign*
Best thing about the character was that his lack of guidance and mental anguish meant he was easily seduced by powerful beings. He would constantly struggle against the influences of Ravenloft and would occasionally find himself siding against the party. Was friggen rad.
I love how they separate Clerics and Invokers in 4e by the source of their power. Like you say Clerics gain their power from ritualistic prayer and faith, Invokers are more like divine sorcerers. They are the 'chosen' of their Gods, touched in a very minor way, often as a result of immense training. They are the hands that direct the will of their God.
I had an Invoker in a 4e Ravenloft game which remains perhaps my favourite D&D character. He was an Invoker of Ioun (God of Knowledge), and he would have get strange, cryptic, divine visions that he would have to piece together to try to make sense of it and figure out what Ioun wanted of him. One day he stopped getting visions. No matter what he tried or how long he waited he just stopped getting instructions from his God. This caused him to have a kind of mental breakdown since he lived most of his life following the guidance of Ioun and without it he was lost. He was convinced that something dark and powerful was blocking his connection so he traveled the continent, trying to find this darkness. Then he found Ravenloft. *queue start of campaign*
Best thing about the character was that his lack of guidance and mental anguish meant he was easily seduced by powerful beings. He would constantly struggle against the influences of Ravenloft and would occasionally find himself siding against the party. Was friggen rad.
...man I wish we had Invokers in Neverwinter. ><
Actually not very accurate. Clerics and invokers have same power source - divine power source.
Secondly, invokers are not sorcerers but more like warlocks.
They do not exclusively get chosen/or have visions - something which is very common among few paragons of clerics too(even other classes).
Invokers are able to speak words of power which allow the divine power to enter their bodies briefly - something like a low version of Karsus when he did folly.
However, everytime they use the power, their mortal body is not strong enough to hold that power. So they get HP damage when using the words of power.
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providenttMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Actually not very accurate. Clerics and invokers have same power source - divine power source.
Secondly, invokers are not sorcerers but more like warlocks.
They do not exclusively get chosen/or have visions - something which is very common among few paragons of clerics too(even other classes).
Invokers are able to speak words of power which allow the divine power to enter their bodies briefly - something like a low version of Karsus when he did folly.
However, everytime they use the power, their mortal body is not strong enough to hold that power. So they get HP damage when using the words of power.
They both have the 'Divine' power source, yeah, but read the lore - it's divine power from different sources.
Also they're more like Wizards than either Sorcs or Warlocks. Invokers and Wizards are controllers, Sorcs and Warlocks are strikers.
The chosen/vision thing is backstory dependant. My specific character had visions. Can't say he didn't, because he did.
Just by being ordained by any church, grants you Divine Power. Gods no longer grant or deny access to Divine Power in the current state .... ...
That is also not accurate. The powers do come from ordaining by clergy, however the power comes from the god. Also it needs to be sanctioned by the deity.
If a clergy exists which has not been sanctioned by the deity, you will not receive any powers.
Divine power:
Wielding power sanctioned by the gods you are in the center of ....
Also some clergies exist which are not sanctioned by gods in official campaigns. The clerics of those clergies do not get any power from prayers.
However, a god may decide to deceive them by posing as their deity and giving them power. That way the deity can increase his domain (which is a big fight amongst deities). After you receive the power, the rank in divine power is decided by your following the dogma defined by the clergy. However, once you do receive the divine power, the deity cannot unshare it.
So they do grant access to their power, but they do not revoke it unless their cleric forsakes the deity.
Also another thing to notice is that alignment (as in purpose) is greater than deities. So if you are doing Lawful Good task, you will get help from Bahamut, Illmater, Torm equally - for alignments (in respect of purpose) are more important in 4e compared to deities.
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providenttMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Player Handbook 2 - Invoker:
The greatest of the gods’ mortal agents in that war were invokers, imbued
with a fragment of the gods’ own might to fight alongside them. No other mortal servant of the gods
can claim the same kind of power. Through rites of investiture, avengers, clerics, and paladins gain the ability to manifest echoes of that power, uttering careful prayers and channeling divine energy through their holy symbols. You, however, channel your god’s power directly. No mere symbol can contain it, for you speak the words of creation, shaping the universe to your and your god’s will.
They both have the 'Divine' power source, yeah, but read the lore - it's divine power from different sources.
Also they're more like Wizards than either Sorcs or Warlocks. Invokers and Wizards are controllers, Sorcs and Warlocks are strikers.
The chosen/vision thing is backstory dependant. My specific character had visions. Can't say he didn't, because he did.
Also the word of power thing is an Invoker Paragon Path I believe, although the base Invoker may have had a few powers along those lines.
What do you mean different sources? You mean like covenant?
Yes, as I said the Invokers make a pact - just like warlocks do - instead they call it covenant and it is with deities. And instead of damning the soul it damns the body as the power is too strong for the vessel.
As for what they are more like, if it is an analogy - they are closer to warlocks. For they form covenants - which is supernal word for infernal pact. They don't damn their souls but their life is lessened due to their bodies being incapable of the divine power they get to wield.
So divinity from clerics is replaced by covenants by invokers, replaced by Censure in avenger etc.
Quoted for truth (it seems I can't post ASCII characters unlike you)
Clerics and invokers have same power source - divine power source.
Invokers are able to speak words of power which allow the divine power to enter their bodies briefly
Also,
Divine Power:-
Unlike divine characters who gain their power through rites of investure, invokers gain their power directly through covenants made with gods...
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providenttMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Yeah you're right about that. I would agree it fits the Warlock closer.
And yeah I mean exactly that - Invokers gain power through their 'pacts', or personal relationships with their Gods, while Clerics and Paladins gain theirs through faith and prayer. It all belongs to the 'Divine' source, but they manifest from different places in different ways.
Still. Wasn't planning on getting into this. Just wanted to mention my rad Invoker character.
....Still. Wasn't planning on getting into this. Just wanted to mention my rad Invoker character.
Not getting into it, and no comments on your character which you should follow as you see fit.
However this is an information thread where I pride myself in keeping information accurate and to help new users I have to shoot down any confusing or inaccurate part I find - whether by me or others.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Gods, what are you all doing to my worshiped facts?!
Yes, (Templar) Clerics gain power from the clergy which once was granted from a divine source.
Schooled in religious traditions from childhood, templars wield divine powers entrusted to them through ordination or investiture in the service of a deity.
AVENGERS, not Invokers use "pacts."
In secret temples far from bustling cities and priestly hierarchies, orders of esoteric warriors train their initiates in ancient traditions now forgotten or forbidden by most religious organizations. The champions of these orders are avengers—deadly weapons in the hands of their gods, imbued with divine power through secret rites of initiation. In battle, avengers swear to execute divine vengeance, entering a mental state that gives them unerring focus on a single enemy.
As an avenger, you were trained in a monastery, initiated through secret rites, and imbued with the power to smite your god’s foes. You might be a disciple of Ioun, sworn to hunt and exterminate the minions of Vecna until you one day face the Maimed God. You could be an agent of the Raven Queen, bringing death to those who would defy your mistress. Or perhaps you serve Bahamut as an agent of justice, bringing ruin to tyrants and oppressors. The organizations devoted to your god might view you as a heretic or a hero, but you answer only to your god and to the vows you swore upon your initiation as an avenger.
INVOKERS gain power through divine grants.
At the dawn of time, the gods who inhabited the Astral Sea warred with the primordials of the Elemental Chaos, the mighty beings who shaped the world out of formless void. The greatest of the gods' mortal agents in that war were invokers, imbued with a fragment of the gods' own might to fight alongside them. No other mortal servant of the gods can claim the same kind of power. Through rites of investiture, avengers, clerics, and paladins gain the ability to manifest echoes of that power, uttering careful prayers and channeling divine energy through their holy symbols. You, however, channel your god's power directly. No mere symbol can contain it, for you speak the words of creation, shaping the universe to your and your god's will.
So sometimes, people gain divine power directly from the divine source, but not usually.
Even with this class that does this in 4E, it is supposed to be considered as rare as the Favored Souls of 3rd ed were.
So EVERYBODY please take a deep breath and meditate on these facts.
Gods, what are you all doing to my worshiped facts?!
- I think its semantics. Will use appropriate 4e terms here then so "pacts" and "grants" dont cause confusion.
Yes, (Templar) Clerics gain power from the clergy which once was granted from a divine source.
- Powers to all clerics are ordained by clergy, but it has to be sanctioned by the deity.
AVENGERS,
- Are also ordained by a religious order just like cleric. Their power is determined by their Zeal.
INVOKERS gain power ...
- Through covenant with deity(unlike cleric or avengers). The deity uses them as their vessel in this world.
~~~
"Pact" in correct context above referred to the 'infernal pact' which means the 'devil's contract' or something equivalent to that.
Covenant is an agreement between deity and subject which lets them use the power of deity. (Though unlike infernal pact, it does not cost your soul){opinion- invokers are comparable as divine warlocks}
Avengers are ordained by religious order too - but unlike religious order for clerics, these are usually zealous, secretive and unliked by people(due to fear). {opinion- This aptly falls under divine assassin category.}
~~~
For explanation how the cleric whose god is dead lose their divine power - check the official campaign on waterdeep in 4e. The one where you go to that inn with bucket (as in NWN second expansion) and explore the caves. It has a dead cleric of Lathander.
So, Knowers of the Canon, I have a concept question. I have a concept for a cleric who is devoted to a frog god who dwells in a swampy pond that represents the generation of life.
Which diety of Neverwinter would most closely represent this?
After looking at the list, I'm thinking the Unicorn Queen of the Wild Woods or perhaps Selune might work best out of the available list. The frog symbology could represent a "pet" to one of those dieties.
Any advise?
So, Knowers of the Canon, I have a concept question. I have a concept for a cleric who is devoted to a frog god who dwells in a swampy pond that represents the generation of life.
Which diety of Neverwinter would most closely represent this?
After looking at the list, I'm thinking the Unicorn Queen of the Wild Woods or perhaps Selune might work best out of the available list. The frog symbology could represent a "pet" to one of those dieties.
Any advise?
It doesn't fill divine theme. Instead go with Primal, like say that you found an island which was actually that turtle thingy in primals where you found a frog god, who shared power with you.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
So, Knowers of the Canon, I have a concept question. I have a concept for a cleric who is devoted to a frog god who dwells in a swampy pond that represents the generation of life.
Which diety of Neverwinter would most closely represent this?
After looking at the list, I'm thinking the Unicorn Queen of the Wild Woods or perhaps Selune might work best out of the available list. The frog symbology could represent a "pet" to one of those dieties.
Any advise?
I'd suggest looking into either Silvanus, Chauntea, or Lurue (as you mentioned). Lurue is more primal magic in nature and would probably fit the theme better, as Gillrimn was pointing out about primal. Mielikki may also be of interest.
Comments
Missing? NO! Not Finder! NO!!!!
Missing is better than dead. Even Shaundakul is missing. Both of them live in Gates of the Moon
Would be nice if they let us worship some evil Gods though considering it's an RPG
List like what? Is it relevant to this thread? This thread has all evil deities like cyric, Shar etc.
I hope its not Shar. I hate Shar.
Is Mystra still an option?
Thanks again, Gillrmn!
- Selune (Charm and Radiant magic)
- Corellon (Magic of seasons)
- Sseth (Dark magic)
These three have arcana domain.
Oghma is worshipped by scribes and scroll-using wizards.
Check my signature on 4e Psionics in context of Faerun
According to the Lore however, if you worship dead deity or refuse to accept the new aspect of old deity, you can do so but it will not yield you divine powers. So if you worship Lathander and refuse to accept Amanautor as Lathander's new aspect - you will not get divine powers. However true belief is not required. You can get divine powers by just lay-worshiping Lathander(lip service to deity). However, refusal to do even that means you will not get divine powers.
Worshiping Mystra will not grant you powers either - but if you are a Simbarch (a follower of Simbul) you can use Silverfire and Mystra-specific spells.
In the case of dead god, let me use Elistrasee as an example:
As long as you were ordained by the priesthood of Eilistrasee prior to her death, you will still be able to use Divine Power in her name and worship her as though she were still around. However, a new person wanting to worship her would not be able to be ordained into he clergy to gain divine power simply because her clergy no longer exists in a state to grant a new priest divine power.
Once you are ordained by a clergy, you have Divine Power for the rest of your life. You may choose to stop worshiping your deity or worship them in a different way, it doesn't matter. However, you can trust that if you were to start flaunting the ways of your god in ways not sanctioned, the God will be very upset and probably seek retribution upon you.
From the 4e Forgotten Realms Handbook:
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
However, that does not have anything to do with deity or worship - it is just siphoning the power of dead and forgotten deities.
EDIT:
Not Paragon I think, but Epic.
I love how they separate Clerics and Invokers in 4e by the source of their power. Like you say Clerics gain their power from ritualistic prayer and faith, Invokers are more like divine sorcerers. They are the 'chosen' of their Gods, touched in a very minor way, often as a result of immense training. They are the hands that direct the will of their God.
I had an Invoker in a 4e Ravenloft game (which was DM'ed by a Wizards dev. Pretty great game) which remains perhaps my favourite D&D character. He was an Invoker of Ioun (God of Knowledge), and he would have get strange, cryptic, divine visions that he would have to piece together to try to make sense of it and figure out what Ioun wanted of him. One day he stopped getting visions. No matter what he tried or how long he waited he just stopped getting instructions from his God. This caused him to have a kind of mental breakdown since he lived most of his life following the guidance of Ioun and without it he was lost. He was convinced that something dark and powerful was blocking his connection so he traveled the continent, trying to find this darkness. Then he found Ravenloft. *queue start of campaign*
Best thing about the character was that his lack of guidance and mental anguish meant he was easily seduced by powerful beings. He would constantly struggle against the influences of Ravenloft and would occasionally find himself siding against the party. Was friggen rad.
...man I wish we had Invokers in Neverwinter. ><
Actually not very accurate. Clerics and invokers have same power source - divine power source.
Secondly, invokers are not sorcerers but more like warlocks.
They do not exclusively get chosen/or have visions - something which is very common among few paragons of clerics too(even other classes).
Invokers are able to speak words of power which allow the divine power to enter their bodies briefly - something like a low version of Karsus when he did folly.
However, everytime they use the power, their mortal body is not strong enough to hold that power. So they get HP damage when using the words of power.
They both have the 'Divine' power source, yeah, but read the lore - it's divine power from different sources.
Also they're more like Wizards than either Sorcs or Warlocks. Invokers and Wizards are controllers, Sorcs and Warlocks are strikers.
The chosen/vision thing is backstory dependant. My specific character had visions. Can't say he didn't, because he did.
If a clergy exists which has not been sanctioned by the deity, you will not receive any powers.
Divine power:
Also some clergies exist which are not sanctioned by gods in official campaigns. The clerics of those clergies do not get any power from prayers.
However, a god may decide to deceive them by posing as their deity and giving them power. That way the deity can increase his domain (which is a big fight amongst deities). After you receive the power, the rank in divine power is decided by your following the dogma defined by the clergy. However, once you do receive the divine power, the deity cannot unshare it.
So they do grant access to their power, but they do not revoke it unless their cleric forsakes the deity.
Also another thing to notice is that alignment (as in purpose) is greater than deities. So if you are doing Lawful Good task, you will get help from Bahamut, Illmater, Torm equally - for alignments (in respect of purpose) are more important in 4e compared to deities.
The greatest of the gods’ mortal agents in that war were invokers, imbued
with a fragment of the gods’ own might to fight alongside them. No other mortal servant of the gods
can claim the same kind of power. Through rites of investiture, avengers, clerics, and paladins gain the ability to manifest echoes of that power, uttering careful prayers and channeling divine energy through their holy symbols. You, however, channel your god’s power directly. No mere symbol can contain it, for you speak the words of creation, shaping the universe to your and your god’s will.
What do you mean different sources? You mean like covenant?
Yes, as I said the Invokers make a pact - just like warlocks do - instead they call it covenant and it is with deities. And instead of damning the soul it damns the body as the power is too strong for the vessel.
As for what they are more like, if it is an analogy - they are closer to warlocks. For they form covenants - which is supernal word for infernal pact. They don't damn their souls but their life is lessened due to their bodies being incapable of the divine power they get to wield.
So divinity from clerics is replaced by covenants by invokers, replaced by Censure in avenger etc.
Quoted for truth (it seems I can't post ASCII characters unlike you)
Also,
Divine Power:-
And yeah I mean exactly that - Invokers gain power through their 'pacts', or personal relationships with their Gods, while Clerics and Paladins gain theirs through faith and prayer. It all belongs to the 'Divine' source, but they manifest from different places in different ways.
Still. Wasn't planning on getting into this. Just wanted to mention my rad Invoker character.
However this is an information thread where I pride myself in keeping information accurate and to help new users I have to shoot down any confusing or inaccurate part I find - whether by me or others.
Yes, (Templar) Clerics gain power from the clergy which once was granted from a divine source.
AVENGERS, not Invokers use "pacts."
INVOKERS gain power through divine grants.
So sometimes, people gain divine power directly from the divine source, but not usually.
Even with this class that does this in 4E, it is supposed to be considered as rare as the Favored Souls of 3rd ed were.
So EVERYBODY please take a deep breath and meditate on these facts.
- I think its semantics. Will use appropriate 4e terms here then so "pacts" and "grants" dont cause confusion.
Yes, (Templar) Clerics gain power from the clergy which once was granted from a divine source.
- Powers to all clerics are ordained by clergy, but it has to be sanctioned by the deity.
AVENGERS,
- Are also ordained by a religious order just like cleric. Their power is determined by their Zeal.
INVOKERS gain power ...
- Through covenant with deity(unlike cleric or avengers). The deity uses them as their vessel in this world.
~~~
"Pact" in correct context above referred to the 'infernal pact' which means the 'devil's contract' or something equivalent to that.
Covenant is an agreement between deity and subject which lets them use the power of deity. (Though unlike infernal pact, it does not cost your soul){opinion- invokers are comparable as divine warlocks}
Avengers are ordained by religious order too - but unlike religious order for clerics, these are usually zealous, secretive and unliked by people(due to fear). {opinion- This aptly falls under divine assassin category.}
~~~
For explanation how the cleric whose god is dead lose their divine power - check the official campaign on waterdeep in 4e. The one where you go to that inn with bucket (as in NWN second expansion) and explore the caves. It has a dead cleric of Lathander.
Which diety of Neverwinter would most closely represent this?
After looking at the list, I'm thinking the Unicorn Queen of the Wild Woods or perhaps Selune might work best out of the available list. The frog symbology could represent a "pet" to one of those dieties.
Any advise?
It doesn't fill divine theme. Instead go with Primal, like say that you found an island which was actually that turtle thingy in primals where you found a frog god, who shared power with you.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]