Forgive me not being enthusiastic about it. The has not been any regular communication from dev side till now. Only intermittent intrusion into lost lands at ungodly hours. I will just put forth a few examples for my point:-
Ask the stromshade thread, a semi-regular form of communication with dev team has long been abandoned. There is already a large backlog of questions. That was meagre but fulfilling meal for community is empty storehouse now.// Another thread by dioxazine, which seems to be abandoned too.
Snippets are no longer present in new news in archive section(the one which give info about how devs thought out the ideas and had fun). Are you just trying to cut off previous initiatives too?
NW was merged before CO was and immediately we asked for improvements(and even agreed to reverting back of smilyes as suggested by SS, perhaps in anger). CO got them as soon as it was merged (here, including old non-disruptive smileys) while there has been no word at all for our suggestions (not even, we will work on it or no comments). Is this because the game is f2p and thus this community's demands don't have weight? Then please make it subscription based too. "Better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven' -Kahn(StarTrek)
Raiderz already had suggestion sub-forum part where community can post even before the close beta started (posting it because that is also a PWE game). There has been no active initiative from part of devs to get suggestions. Cant you just make a new thread and make it sticky? Or is it too much to ask.
There are lot of other issues which clearly indicate abandoning the community formed here in any way whatsoever. That said, I do appreciate your efforts on game and believe that game would be good. Infact I will still try to promote it if I can and get people to play it, but game is game - community is community. If you are developing game by abandoning community, admit it. At least I will feel happy that you are being honest. And you can make me hopeful too by saying you will come back. But until you do take some steps, instead of saying your marketing taglines to us which are obviously untrue - it won't earn you my respect.
p.s. Face the wrath of my anger - the super bright white on black website.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I am enthusiastically cheering at the hard work you have put into the game like a fanboi, but at the same time I am booing with same energy whenever you say, "we want to involve community" because uptill now you have been apathatic to the forums here.
I respect his answer as valid, and beg to be proven wrong here!
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited September 2012
Thanks for the responses Crypticmopolis.
all our games have very robust character systems and Neverwinter will be no exception.
Well that's slightly vague yet oddly descriptive. If robust has the same meaning to you as it does to me then robust in no way describes having pre-built class progressions.
It's enough for me at this time, thanks.
Gillrmn and Andre, I understand the frustrations some people such as yourselves are having and I can truly relate. I haven't been here nearly as long as either of you but I have been in situations where game companies seem to ignore the players and it's one of the worst feelings I ever had.
None of us can argue that Cryptic is doing everything they can to communicate with the players but I personally don't find them to be ignoring the players. They certainly are quiet but I guess my own experience with game development understand's their predicament.
We all want more info but nothing is set in stone until it's considered complete and one of the most irritating things that can be done is to claim features will be included that are later scrapped. I have seen ideas scrapped past 90% completion after some stumbling block was discovered.
I don't feel like they are withholding information. They are discussing things that are completed and set in stone as soon as they can.
It would be great to see even comments such as the one I quoted earlier more often and none of us can argue against that but that also isn't the first time I have seen Crypticmopolis skirt the lines and release tidbits of information on things to come.
Though it would be nice to hear some rough 'Beta will start around Thanksgiving' or something *nudge, nudge*
No matter what don't expect a lot of developers posting back and forth on the forums. Many times developers purposely don't post on forums about content because it can be misconstrued into a promisary release. 'The dev liked my idea and said it would be nice to be added so it's going to be added!' when really all was stated was an interest in the concept. What more often tends to happen is that developers use 'choob' accounts to discuss content if they truly want to get involved on forums.
In a perfect world developers would be talking to the players on official accounts as if they were in the team office but it just doesn't work out like that in reality. It's a sad truth of the industry.
I do, 150%, concede that it would be great to see some contests starting around now though. That would be the simplest way to show some care in the community and I hope we see them VERY soon.
But as for the rest of the information our patience will just have to be stretched even thinner for now.
*Sighs* I feel morbid after this post. You both have been incredibly great to this community and I hope you can find a bit more patience in yourselves but you have to decide what's right for yourselves.
I hope Cryptic will start being more active with the community as the game's release draws close but in all reality at this point in time there's really not much they can do other than do contests for Beta info and such.
I, for one, am actually very refreshed by the tight lips at Cryptic - coming from the STO forum, I'm so accustomed to them saying things about the game that aren't true (we're working on Klingon content!), going back on things that were promised (we're going to have two factions with full PvE content; we'll be fixing the STF's and adding new ones), complaining that the userbase isn't happy with the current state (we gave Klingon players eight whole PvE missions, when we didn't want to give them any), or just outright trying to insult players' intelligence (gaming the exchange is viable endgame content).
It seems they may have finally learned their lesson.
Also, if you guys are just looking for freeform character progression, I wouldn't worry about that either - all you have to look at is how robust freeform characters in Champions are. They'll likely just copypasta that to this game, and we'll be able to make pretty much whatever we want.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2012
[quote=jedidethfreak823;182191]I, for one, am actually very refreshed by the tight lips at Cryptic - coming from the STO forum, I'm so accustomed to them saying things about the game that aren't true (we're working on Klingon content!), going back on things that were promised (we're going to have two factions with full PvE content; we'll be fixing the STF's and adding new ones), complaining that the userbase isn't happy with the current state (we gave Klingon players eight whole PvE missions, when we didn't want to give them any), or just outright trying to insult players' intelligence (gaming the exchange is viable endgame content).
It seems they may have finally learned their lesson.
Also, if you guys are just looking for freeform character progression, I wouldn't worry about that either - all you have to look at is how robust freeform characters in Champions are. They'll likely just copypasta that to this game, and we'll be able to make pretty much whatever we want.[/quote]
*Winces* Point taken. But we can have moderation and not be in either extreme. Small but consistent information works (even "we can't say we have anything new but we're working on x and we hope to have more news in x time!)
CrypticMapolis is a great example of how to do that!
Now all we have to do is get people to proactively release some small info updates without prompting, and we have a proactive community from a perceived reactive one!
I'm in kind of the same boat where i've been told too many things by Cryptic that turned out to not be true (lifer since launch/beta in both games) but at the same time i have to agree that SOME info is better than NO info, even when that info is just a brief "can't discuss that yet, but we hear ya". To be honest, i like the concept of the Foundy, even though it's a poor copy of the awesome version NW will use STO's fanbase is making great use of it, but yeah, i'm a little foundried out and would love to hear more about something like customization, character creation, or even how equipping works. Those things are what killed SW:TOR for me. KOTOR I/II had an awesome system for leveling and equipping items which would have made for a great open system mmo like champions. Instead they put little to no effort into those areas and went free to play in the bad way. DCUO is guilty of the same thing. Although as far as i know DCUO didn't make hundreds of promises that they didn't keep like TOR and even Cryptic.......
Not that i'm bitter or petty from it all...... not in the least bit.....
Any way, long pointless story short, as cool as the foundry will be, don't force it on us. a little bit of variety would be nice every now and then, even if it IS a little bit.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited September 2012
jedidethfreak823 and wraithshadow13 have apparently already dealt with the false promissory notes.
This is exactly why we shouldn't expect developers to have an open door policy.
Content is best to be discussed when it is finalized. It would be nice to know exactly what they are working on at any given momment but it would do more harm than good.
However, as truthseeker pointed out, Crypticmapolis has done a great job skirting the edges discussing wants, desires and vague confirmations. Stating that a heightmap editor is on the developer's "wishlist" and that the character systems will be robust is just fine.
There's a balancing point which I hope Cryptic takes advantage of but we shouldn't expect or demand specific answers that are subject to change before launch.
I can understand that during the development of these things the team will run into problems that might cause them to change their plans or that one of the higher ups might suddenly say "hey, i want you to work on this for the time being even though you've already promised that". Not to mention there was a brief time in sto where they were doing one thing, were bought, worked on something else, then sold, only to start a new project after claiming they were working on something. I understand that these things happen, but some times happens a wee bit too much for my tastes, so i can't really say that i blame the team for keeping so hush hush on things. Even in terms of things like lifetime subscriptions there was a lot of things not happening and promises not being kept.
But you're right in terms of "There's a balancing point which I hope Cryptic takes advantage of but we shouldn't expect or demand specific answers that are subject to change before launch." so i'm trying not to get my hopes up as well as keeping excited about this. Obviously despite the lies, despite the changes they have no control over, and despite anything else, obviously they are making an enjoyable product to keep me coming back.
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alsarothMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2012
Actually, with the last previews, I hope there will be a good RPG-element in the game with ? deep story and huge character progression. I hope focus will not be put in the foundry.
"A rare display of intelligence, undoubtedly fleeting." - Edwin Odesseiron
Actually, with the last previews, I hope there will be a good RPG-element in the game with ? deep story and huge character progression. I hope focus will not be put in the foundry.
Then I am sorry, but you are going to be disappointed. This is CRYPTIC we are talking about here. Not BioWare or Bethesda. CRYPTIC.
I'm not really into the super hero thing, so Champions holds little interest for me. And STORY in Star Trek Online? Where? They can't even churn out a single story mission per month.
If you are expecting things to be any different with Neverwinter, you are going to be sorely disappointed. I'm sure that their core campaign will be interesting, but I expect that it will ultimately serve as an example of what can be done with the Foundry.
The real meat and potatoes of Neverwinter will be the community authored stories, which is in the spirit of Dungeons and Dragons as a game. Based on Cryptic's previous track record, you can likely expect a handfull of quests released every four to six months, with the introduction of new grindfests coming more often and a boatload of cash shop items even more often than that...
But with the Foundry you can expect new quests of verrying degrees of quality and depth releasing EVERY DAY.
Don't be shy to give it a try. In fact try as many as you can. Find foundry authors who take the Forgotten Realms setting seriously and are good storytellers. Subscribe to their work. Ignore the authors whose work you do not like. And even consider trying your hand with it as well.
In STO the attitude of a lot of people is "We are paying cryptic to make a game, not the players." Well STO is still a subnscription-supported game with a Free-to-play option. Neverwinter will be fully free to play. We will not have to pay one red cent to be able to enjoy whatever is released. Anything we spend money to buy Zen for is entirely out of personal preference. They have said they will not sell quest content. They have said they will not even sell foundry resource packs.
They will launch with a campaign to play through. But quest content will not be their revenue generator. There will be many cash shop items that will appeal to different groups of people, so I expect their focus will be on that. For new costumes and such, I expect them to create new questlines that while having a small story of their own will serve as an ingame showcase for items they are about to release to the cash shop. Or to introduce the next grindfest that can be eased by purchasing some new token type on the cash shop.
WE will be the storytellers. And before you get too upset, ask yourself how many official campaign modules has Wizards of the Coast published for D&D over the years, compared to the sheer number world wide of consumer-authored campaigns played in private sessions. Well Neverwinter is going to just take the next step to bringing that level of consumer creativity into online gaming.
So unless you are a pen-and-paper D&D player who only playes through officially published modules with your DM, then what the Foundry represents is really not much different from what you are used to.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Then I am sorry, but you are going to be disappointed. This is CRYPTIC we are talking about here. Not BioWare or Bethesda. CRYPTIC.
.
I think you are assuming and jumping the gun, If cryptic wasn't planning on a story element why would they hire eight writers for the team? That is more writers that SWTOR has currently and those guys are building an expansion pack with full VO. And RA Salvatore even said at this years GEN-CON that Cryptic has asked him back to expand the foundation that he laid out in the Neverwinter Novels.
As significant as the foundry will be I don't think that Cryptic will shun away from the authoritative base of NWN and NWN2 and provide a meaningful main campaign.
I think you are assuming and jumping the gun, If cryptic wasn't planning on a story element why would they hire eight writers for the team? That is more writers that SWTOR has currently and those guys are building an expansion pack with full VO. And RA Salvatore even said at this years GEN-CON that Cryptic has asked him back to expand the foundation that he laid out in the Neverwinter Novels.
I'm not saying that they won't have a story element. But based solely on my experience with how they handle story in Star Trek Online, I am not expecting the game to have a DEEP story or HUGE character progression.
As significant as the foundry will be I don't think that Cryptic will shun away from the authoritative base of NWN and NWN2 and provide a meaningful main campaign.
Maybe you are right. I'm just not going to get my hopes up. That way they won't be dashed if the end product proves to be mediocre as the rest of their work. I'm sorry but that is how I see it. There is nothing remarkable about Cryptic's storytelling in STO. And like I said I am not into superhero stuff so I couldn't care less about how story may be in Champions. But based on how they wrote many of their missions in STO, the writers have less of an understanding of Star Trek than they otherwise claimed. And getting them to release mission content is like trying to convince the Borg that resistance is not futile. If upper management will not do anything to turn that around, I certainly don't expect them to insist on any higher standards with Neverwinter.
They will not be selling quest content. A free-to-play MMO will devote man hours primarily to what generates revenue: The Cash Shop. After launch, even if the core campaign turns out to be awesome and everyone will be begging for more, story development will take a back seat to microtransaction items. I urge everyone to assume this to be true. That way if it turns out to be wrong and they do managed to break their own mold, we get an awesomely pleasant surprise. But if it is as it has been thus far over in STO, then we won't be disappointed.
I'm willing to see what transpires.
Me too. And I fervantly hope that I am wrong. Nothing will make me happier if I am.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Name one gaming company which hasn't blundered and I will show you a cultofmillions saying it has.
*Just press I hate <game company> and press google*
Blizzard made only best selling games...
Bioware most of it's games are state of the art games.
Westwood before EA killed it made some amazing games.
Riot made League of Legends...15 million players.
Cryptic made ... ? They still not got a huge succes game.
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Then I am sorry, but you are going to be disappointed. This is CRYPTIC we are talking about here. Not BioWare or Bethesda. CRYPTIC.
You're talking as if either BioWEAre or Beth have ever invested in good writers. Dialogue from DA2 or FO3 still gives me nightmares. Monkeys and typewriters.
That said, this being an MMO, the chances that there will be much of a story focus are slim. I mean, we're talking about a completely linear game with as much space left to player imagination and interaction as possible. The role of a writer in a MMO is not to tell a story but to complete the immersion in the world, and from what I've read so far in the lore previews, the writers are doing a splendid job with that. If the same people are writing the dialogue, then I'm not worried about that at all.
You're talking as if either BioWEAre or Beth have ever invested in good writers. Dialogue from DA2 or FO3 still gives me nightmares. Monkeys and typewriters.
I won't argue with you there. But quality of writing aside, BioWare and Bethesda are both viewed as story-centric developers. Cryptic, based on my personal experiences in STO, have no right to even try to claim good storytelling. They don't even understand the nature of the Star Trek IP. For crying out loud, they have Federation missions that send you in to kill scientists and even unborn children. And you cannot even set your phasers to stun...
I remember someone asking on their forums, "Just how many Klingons do you think Kirk killed thoughout his career?"
The response was, "Not as many as I killed this morning before breakfast!"
In all of two years there has been no effort on Cryptic's part to give additional focus to diplomacy and exploration, in spite of a constant outcry from the community to do so.
The Bottom Line is that unless it is something that will generate revenue, it will never find its way on the "must have" section of their priority list.
That said, this being an MMO, the chances that there will be much of a story focus are slim. I mean, we're talking about a completely linear game with as much space left to player imagination and interaction as possible. The role of a writer in a MMO is not to tell a story but to complete the immersion in the world, and from what I've read so far in the lore previews, the writers are doing a splendid job with that. If the same people are writing the dialogue, then I'm not worried about that at all.
I'll reserve judgment for the finished product. But I am not going to set my expectations very high.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Blizzard made only best selling games...
Bioware most of it's games are state of the art games.
Westwood before EA killed it made some amazing games.
Riot made League of Legends...15 million players.
Cryptic made ... ? They still not got a huge succes game.
City of Heroes was a pretty successful game. I never really got into it because the superhero thing isn't my area of interest.
In all honesty, I strongly feel that if they play their cards right, Neverwinter could be their crowning achievement. With foundry at the center of their plans, I really think this will be their best title to date...
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Blizzard made only best selling games...
Bioware most of it's games are state of the art games.
Westwood before EA killed it made some amazing games.
Riot made League of Legends...15 million players.
Cryptic made ... ? They still not got a huge succes game.
Cryptic has only made AAA MMOs. They started and kept City of Heroes/Villains till 2006 - and it was successful. Then they also have CO - a profit making MMO.
Then star trek with foundry was another revolutionary concept which hasn't been copied by others yet.
Yes, there are negatives like bad space fighting in STO etc., but these are still profit making projects and thus successful. And compared to contemporary MMOs like them, they are praised. So you can't just ignore all positives. Because they always think big and make big MMOs (CO was supposed to be Marvel's) they get into financial crunch - but till now they haven't blundered - they have returned profit from their projects.
And regarding negatives of you listed above are much more.
Blizzard made only best selling games...
Bioware most of it's games are state of the art games.
Westwood before EA killed it made some amazing games.
Riot made League of Legends...15 million players.
Cryptic made ... ? They still not got a huge succes game.
I'm just getting the feeling that some of the new forum users are basically here to CRYPTIC bash, I get that some gamers get deeply offended and have problems letting go of past events...but honestly at this point the only thing you can do is try the game and if it isn'ty for you not play it.....you aren't going to change any minds, folks that hate CRYPTIC will continue to and folks that enjoy their games will continue as well.
I think you are assuming and jumping the gun, If cryptic wasn't planning on a story element why would they hire eight writers for the team? That is more writers that SWTOR has currently and those guys are building an expansion pack with full VO. And RA Salvatore even said at this years GEN-CON that Cryptic has asked him back to expand the foundation that he laid out in the Neverwinter Novels.
As significant as the foundry will be I don't think that Cryptic will shun away from the authoritative base of NWN and NWN2 and provide a meaningful main campaign.
I'm willing to see what transpires.
I agree. There should be a Cryptic authored main campaign, without a doubt. If we wait all this time, and the game for the most part is an empty notebook, like Sir is assuming, then there's GOING to be a bunch of pissed off, game exiting members of the community. Some people wont wait around, while dreamweavers figure out how to make good USG.
But based on how they wrote many of their missions in STO, the writers have less of an understanding of Star Trek than they otherwise claimed.
Trying to claim or assume that this Neverwinter dev team is not knowledgeable in D&D lore, and therefore can not or will not present a main campaign setting, is faulty consulting work. As they have said countless time, they have been working tirelessly with WotC for months. They've also stated there's quite a few D&D fanatics on staff. Hell let's take your argument and assume they all lie and they had zero experience sitting at a table to play D&D. Even in that case, could you imagine how much they could pick up and learn from the likes of WotC and RA Salvatore walking around the office every day!? I would bet the farm and the legal crops that RA could come up with a few ideas for a main campaign for a few RL platinum pieces...
I agree. There should be a Cryptic authored main campaign, without a doubt. If we wait all this time, and the game for the most part is an empty notebook, like Sir is assuming, then there's GOING to be a bunch of pissed off, game exiting members of the community. Some people wont wait around, while dreamweavers figure out how to make good USG.
BINGO!
And in following a couple of the writers on Google+ I do know that they are putting in insane hours on something.....and all my time working with developers I haven't seen writers do much else but write.
Wait for it... wait for it...
Ok! As I don't have patience and its night here, let me ask the question myself which I was waiting from because of my last response:-
If cryptic is profit making then why do people perceive cryptic to not be so great?
An excellent question! You see, the reason is that cryptic doesn't get everything "right" the first time. It changes things and gets feedback from users.
Other companies like blizzard are already established and have blundered when they had monopoly (no competitors). They also made a lot of blunders and corrected them lot slower. These old companies have user data. They know if they do X, they will have to do Y and this will cause reaction Z. Cryptic has to ask for feedback for that. So their gave improve over time correcting their mistakes.
Now why will NW be different? Answer is PW. PW has lot of that data regarding what makes MMO users happy and what makes MMO users sad. Cryptic no longer needs to learn from mistakes unlike its previous games like STO and CO. Infact it already is.
So NW will be smoother with mistakes that don't make majority people irritated.
Blizzard made only best selling games...
Bioware most of it's games are state of the art games.
Westwood before EA killed it made some amazing games.
Riot made League of Legends...15 million players.
Cryptic made ... ? They still not got a huge succes game.
Those companies success stories have nothing to do with Cryptic's resume. And just because they make successful games doesn't mean they are all good games. For example, Blizzard may have the best selling MMO of all time on their resume, but the only games I ever thought were good were Diablo I and II. I havent played a Blizzard game since because I think they are junk. Yes, even WOW.
So who cares what you think about Cryptic. All those companies you mentioned has made mistakes. And Cryptic deserves a chance to get their game developed and launched before you slight them for not having the capability of making a good game. My 2 cents. And if you call me a Cryptic fan boy, this whole community will laugh at you.
Trying to claim or assume that this Neverwinter dev team is not knowledgeable in D&D lore, and therefore can not or will not present a main campaign setting, is faulty consulting work.
I never said they cannot or will not present a main campaign setting. I'm sure they will. I just do not have a lot of confidence in their ability to tell a deep story with heavy character progression. These were the points I began responding to in this thread today.
I said it before and I will say it again. Neverwinter's revenue generation is going to come from Zen sales for purchasing items and services from the cash shop. There will be no subscription option. They have flat out said that they will not be selling quest content in the cash shop, and story is at the heart of quest content. Therefore there will be nothing post launch to make story a profitable element for them, therefore, post launch I don't see any significant dedication on their part to the development of story content... Unless they dress NPCs connected with a new quest in outfits you can buy in the cash shop, or if the quest introduces the player to new mechanics that comprise and indirectly monetized grindfest.
As to how well the writing team understands the Forgotten Realms and D&D, we shall have to see. Even if they nail it spot-on, it is what becomes the most profitable after launch that determines what gets the most developer attention. And it won't be story content.
As they have said countless time, they have been working tirelessly with WotC for months. They've also stated there's quite a few D&D fanatics on staff. Hell let's take your argument and assume they all lie and they had zero experience sitting at a table to play D&D. Even in that case, could you imagine how much they could pick up and learn from the likes of WotC and RA Salvatore walking around the office every day!? I would bet the farm and the legal crops that RA could come up with a few ideas for a main campaign for a few RL platinum pieces...
No doubt. And I hope that is the case. RA's reputation is well earned in D&D lore circles. If he is directly involved with the writing, I won't worry so much. I'm not really worried about it anyway. I just want to discourage people from setting their expectations too high on the story and character progression aspect.
Because even if NW has the greatest story ever at launch, unless Cryptic is taking a total change of direction with NW from how they have treated mission/quest content in STO, then what it will end up getting post launch in that area will not be much of anything to write home about.
And if they have changed directions in that area, then someone needs to go over to the STO writing team and kick them very hard in the nether regions and get them on track.
It should be noted that Cryptic says they closely with CBS and the delivery of quality story content for STO has not improved all that much. So you will pardon me if I don't put much stock in how closely or tirelessly Cryptic says they work with the IP owners.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
I think it is quite obvious that they are expecting us to create the content, IMO they should just release the Foundry and a persistent mutable world. I think that's what Blizzard is working on.
As significant as the foundry will be I don't think that Cryptic will shun away from the authoritative base of NWN and NWN2 and provide a meaningful main campaign.
They sure as heck shied away from any meaningful story in STO after the Foundry was implemented there, and it's got FAR more backdrop to pull from.
As was posted above, story missions aren't going to make Cryptic or PWE any money on this game directly. Any story added post-launch would, in theory, be loss-leader - this is why the Klingon faction in Star Trek Online will never be brought up to where we were told it would be pre-launch. DStahl said it himself that there aren't enough people playing Klingons and they won't make any money directly off the content.
That's also why the STO ZEN store has seen more updates since STO's launch than the rest of the game.
You know there was probably some agreement between Cryptic and WotC about stroylines. Remember this was supposed to be a flagship and part of the expanding Nevewinter storyline. So maybe there'll be some
I'm in kind of the same boat where i've been told too many things by Cryptic that turned out to not be true (lifer since launch/beta in both games) but at the same time i have to agree that SOME info is better than NO info, even when that info is just a brief "can't discuss that yet, but we hear ya". To be honest, i like the concept of the Foundy, even though it's a poor copy of the awesome version NW will use STO's fanbase is making great use of it, but yeah, i'm a little foundried out and would love to hear more about something like customization, character creation, or even how equipping works. Those things are what killed SW:TOR for me. KOTOR I/II had an awesome system for leveling and equipping items which would have made for a great open system mmo like champions. Instead they put little to no effort into those areas and went free to play in the bad way. DCUO is guilty of the same thing. Although as far as i know DCUO didn't make hundreds of promises that they didn't keep like TOR and even Cryptic.......
Not that i'm bitter or petty from it all...... not in the least bit.....
Any way, long pointless story short, as cool as the foundry will be, don't force it on us. a little bit of variety would be nice every now and then, even if it IS a little bit.
Emphasis mine.
As to the emphasized text, as much as I agree that some info is better than no info, I've witnessed "can't discuss that yet, but we hear ya" bemoaned here as well. Unfortunately, some people just aren't going to be staisfied no matter what. In regard to that, I kind of feel like Bill Cosby said it right: "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."
The devs have mentioned an official story arc for the game. It involves the Crown of Neverwinter. I don't think we know anything more then that.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2012
I'll forgive STO, since it bounced around to a few companies before settling on Ctyptic then Atrari left after all that. The MMO didn't have much of a rich story development chance, and people should be praising those who kept with it that it is even profitable. Stronger MMO's have gone under based on the history of those setbacks. This doesn't mean I approve of the story or currency support, but respect its road.
Now since we have a game closely monitored by WotC as well as given developmental freedom by PWE, I have no idea how the storyline will do and if the IP will be done right (restrictions by WotC or not) or just up to code. I'll note this: if this just becomes "how many of x race we can massacre" like STO did with the opposing faction leaders (Fed or Klingon) as their "storyline," I'll note why I like playing D&D is for the options besides killing for xp and look it as a failure due to cloning the last game.
But I think it won't be that bad an interpretation, so I hope.
I'll forgive STO, since it bounced around to a few companies before settling on Ctyptic then Atrari left after all that. The MMO didn't have much of a rich story development chance, and people should be praising those who kept with it that it is even profitable. Stronger MMO's have gone under based on the history of those setbacks. This doesn't mean I approve of the story or currency support, but respect its road.
Now since we have a game closely monitored by WotC as well as given developmental freedom by PWE, I have no idea how the storyline will do and if the IP will be done right (restrictions by WotC or not) or just up to code. I'll note this: if this just becomes "how many of x race we can massacre" like STO did with the opposing faction leaders (Fed or Klingon) as their "storyline," I'll note why I like playing D&D is for the options besides killing for xp and look it as a failure due to cloning the last game.
But I think it won't be that bad an interpretation, so I hope.
Cryptic also was screwed by Microsoft when they were developing Marvel Heroes online, in mid development they asked Cryptic if they could Guarantee WoW like numbers, when Cryptic said of course not they pulled out, leaving cryptic to scramble to do something with hundreds of hours of development time.
Atari then gave them less than a year to release a MMO which screwed them again... people refuse to acknowledge things like this when they are venting their irrational Cryptic hate. Neverwinter is going to be the first game from Cryptic since CoH where a publisher hasn't been putting the screws to them demanding just idiotic things and expecting success.
And surprise surprise the game has taken home a slew of rewards and the media and those who have had hands on time can't stop gushing about it.
It just strengthens my belief that it isn't so much bad developers but greedy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> impatient publishers that are killing the genre .
Comments
I respect his answer as valid, and beg to be proven wrong here!
Well that's slightly vague yet oddly descriptive. If robust has the same meaning to you as it does to me then robust in no way describes having pre-built class progressions.
It's enough for me at this time, thanks.
Gillrmn and Andre, I understand the frustrations some people such as yourselves are having and I can truly relate. I haven't been here nearly as long as either of you but I have been in situations where game companies seem to ignore the players and it's one of the worst feelings I ever had.
None of us can argue that Cryptic is doing everything they can to communicate with the players but I personally don't find them to be ignoring the players. They certainly are quiet but I guess my own experience with game development understand's their predicament.
We all want more info but nothing is set in stone until it's considered complete and one of the most irritating things that can be done is to claim features will be included that are later scrapped. I have seen ideas scrapped past 90% completion after some stumbling block was discovered.
I don't feel like they are withholding information. They are discussing things that are completed and set in stone as soon as they can.
It would be great to see even comments such as the one I quoted earlier more often and none of us can argue against that but that also isn't the first time I have seen Crypticmopolis skirt the lines and release tidbits of information on things to come.
Though it would be nice to hear some rough 'Beta will start around Thanksgiving' or something *nudge, nudge*
No matter what don't expect a lot of developers posting back and forth on the forums. Many times developers purposely don't post on forums about content because it can be misconstrued into a promisary release. 'The dev liked my idea and said it would be nice to be added so it's going to be added!' when really all was stated was an interest in the concept. What more often tends to happen is that developers use 'choob' accounts to discuss content if they truly want to get involved on forums.
In a perfect world developers would be talking to the players on official accounts as if they were in the team office but it just doesn't work out like that in reality. It's a sad truth of the industry.
I do, 150%, concede that it would be great to see some contests starting around now though. That would be the simplest way to show some care in the community and I hope we see them VERY soon.
But as for the rest of the information our patience will just have to be stretched even thinner for now.
*Sighs* I feel morbid after this post. You both have been incredibly great to this community and I hope you can find a bit more patience in yourselves but you have to decide what's right for yourselves.
I hope Cryptic will start being more active with the community as the game's release draws close but in all reality at this point in time there's really not much they can do other than do contests for Beta info and such.
It seems they may have finally learned their lesson.
Also, if you guys are just looking for freeform character progression, I wouldn't worry about that either - all you have to look at is how robust freeform characters in Champions are. They'll likely just copypasta that to this game, and we'll be able to make pretty much whatever we want.
It seems they may have finally learned their lesson.
Also, if you guys are just looking for freeform character progression, I wouldn't worry about that either - all you have to look at is how robust freeform characters in Champions are. They'll likely just copypasta that to this game, and we'll be able to make pretty much whatever we want.[/quote]
*Winces* Point taken. But we can have moderation and not be in either extreme. Small but consistent information works (even "we can't say we have anything new but we're working on x and we hope to have more news in x time!)
CrypticMapolis is a great example of how to do that!
Now all we have to do is get people to proactively release some small info updates without prompting, and we have a proactive community from a perceived reactive one!
Not that i'm bitter or petty from it all...... not in the least bit.....
Any way, long pointless story short, as cool as the foundry will be, don't force it on us. a little bit of variety would be nice every now and then, even if it IS a little bit.
This is exactly why we shouldn't expect developers to have an open door policy.
Content is best to be discussed when it is finalized. It would be nice to know exactly what they are working on at any given momment but it would do more harm than good.
However, as truthseeker pointed out, Crypticmapolis has done a great job skirting the edges discussing wants, desires and vague confirmations. Stating that a heightmap editor is on the developer's "wishlist" and that the character systems will be robust is just fine.
There's a balancing point which I hope Cryptic takes advantage of but we shouldn't expect or demand specific answers that are subject to change before launch.
But you're right in terms of "There's a balancing point which I hope Cryptic takes advantage of but we shouldn't expect or demand specific answers that are subject to change before launch." so i'm trying not to get my hopes up as well as keeping excited about this. Obviously despite the lies, despite the changes they have no control over, and despite anything else, obviously they are making an enjoyable product to keep me coming back.
Then I am sorry, but you are going to be disappointed. This is CRYPTIC we are talking about here. Not BioWare or Bethesda. CRYPTIC.
I'm not really into the super hero thing, so Champions holds little interest for me. And STORY in Star Trek Online? Where? They can't even churn out a single story mission per month.
If you are expecting things to be any different with Neverwinter, you are going to be sorely disappointed. I'm sure that their core campaign will be interesting, but I expect that it will ultimately serve as an example of what can be done with the Foundry.
The real meat and potatoes of Neverwinter will be the community authored stories, which is in the spirit of Dungeons and Dragons as a game. Based on Cryptic's previous track record, you can likely expect a handfull of quests released every four to six months, with the introduction of new grindfests coming more often and a boatload of cash shop items even more often than that...
But with the Foundry you can expect new quests of verrying degrees of quality and depth releasing EVERY DAY.
Don't be shy to give it a try. In fact try as many as you can. Find foundry authors who take the Forgotten Realms setting seriously and are good storytellers. Subscribe to their work. Ignore the authors whose work you do not like. And even consider trying your hand with it as well.
In STO the attitude of a lot of people is "We are paying cryptic to make a game, not the players." Well STO is still a subnscription-supported game with a Free-to-play option. Neverwinter will be fully free to play. We will not have to pay one red cent to be able to enjoy whatever is released. Anything we spend money to buy Zen for is entirely out of personal preference. They have said they will not sell quest content. They have said they will not even sell foundry resource packs.
They will launch with a campaign to play through. But quest content will not be their revenue generator. There will be many cash shop items that will appeal to different groups of people, so I expect their focus will be on that. For new costumes and such, I expect them to create new questlines that while having a small story of their own will serve as an ingame showcase for items they are about to release to the cash shop. Or to introduce the next grindfest that can be eased by purchasing some new token type on the cash shop.
WE will be the storytellers. And before you get too upset, ask yourself how many official campaign modules has Wizards of the Coast published for D&D over the years, compared to the sheer number world wide of consumer-authored campaigns played in private sessions. Well Neverwinter is going to just take the next step to bringing that level of consumer creativity into online gaming.
So unless you are a pen-and-paper D&D player who only playes through officially published modules with your DM, then what the Foundry represents is really not much different from what you are used to.
but I play one on the forums...
:P
I think you are assuming and jumping the gun, If cryptic wasn't planning on a story element why would they hire eight writers for the team? That is more writers that SWTOR has currently and those guys are building an expansion pack with full VO. And RA Salvatore even said at this years GEN-CON that Cryptic has asked him back to expand the foundation that he laid out in the Neverwinter Novels.
As significant as the foundry will be I don't think that Cryptic will shun away from the authoritative base of NWN and NWN2 and provide a meaningful main campaign.
I'm willing to see what transpires.
Name one gaming company which hasn't blundered and I will show you a cult of millions saying it has.
*Just press I hate <game company> and press google*
I'm not saying that they won't have a story element. But based solely on my experience with how they handle story in Star Trek Online, I am not expecting the game to have a DEEP story or HUGE character progression.
Maybe you are right. I'm just not going to get my hopes up. That way they won't be dashed if the end product proves to be mediocre as the rest of their work. I'm sorry but that is how I see it. There is nothing remarkable about Cryptic's storytelling in STO. And like I said I am not into superhero stuff so I couldn't care less about how story may be in Champions. But based on how they wrote many of their missions in STO, the writers have less of an understanding of Star Trek than they otherwise claimed. And getting them to release mission content is like trying to convince the Borg that resistance is not futile. If upper management will not do anything to turn that around, I certainly don't expect them to insist on any higher standards with Neverwinter.
They will not be selling quest content. A free-to-play MMO will devote man hours primarily to what generates revenue: The Cash Shop. After launch, even if the core campaign turns out to be awesome and everyone will be begging for more, story development will take a back seat to microtransaction items. I urge everyone to assume this to be true. That way if it turns out to be wrong and they do managed to break their own mold, we get an awesomely pleasant surprise. But if it is as it has been thus far over in STO, then we won't be disappointed.
Me too. And I fervantly hope that I am wrong. Nothing will make me happier if I am.
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Blizzard made only best selling games...
Bioware most of it's games are state of the art games.
Westwood before EA killed it made some amazing games.
Riot made League of Legends...15 million players.
Cryptic made ... ? They still not got a huge succes game.
You're talking as if either BioWEAre or Beth have ever invested in good writers. Dialogue from DA2 or FO3 still gives me nightmares. Monkeys and typewriters.
That said, this being an MMO, the chances that there will be much of a story focus are slim. I mean, we're talking about a completely linear game with as much space left to player imagination and interaction as possible. The role of a writer in a MMO is not to tell a story but to complete the immersion in the world, and from what I've read so far in the lore previews, the writers are doing a splendid job with that. If the same people are writing the dialogue, then I'm not worried about that at all.
I won't argue with you there. But quality of writing aside, BioWare and Bethesda are both viewed as story-centric developers. Cryptic, based on my personal experiences in STO, have no right to even try to claim good storytelling. They don't even understand the nature of the Star Trek IP. For crying out loud, they have Federation missions that send you in to kill scientists and even unborn children. And you cannot even set your phasers to stun...
I remember someone asking on their forums, "Just how many Klingons do you think Kirk killed thoughout his career?"
The response was, "Not as many as I killed this morning before breakfast!"
In all of two years there has been no effort on Cryptic's part to give additional focus to diplomacy and exploration, in spite of a constant outcry from the community to do so.
The Bottom Line is that unless it is something that will generate revenue, it will never find its way on the "must have" section of their priority list.
I'll reserve judgment for the finished product. But I am not going to set my expectations very high.
but I play one on the forums...
:P
City of Heroes was a pretty successful game. I never really got into it because the superhero thing isn't my area of interest.
In all honesty, I strongly feel that if they play their cards right, Neverwinter could be their crowning achievement. With foundry at the center of their plans, I really think this will be their best title to date...
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Cryptic has only made AAA MMOs. They started and kept City of Heroes/Villains till 2006 - and it was successful. Then they also have CO - a profit making MMO.
Then star trek with foundry was another revolutionary concept which hasn't been copied by others yet.
Yes, there are negatives like bad space fighting in STO etc., but these are still profit making projects and thus successful. And compared to contemporary MMOs like them, they are praised. So you can't just ignore all positives. Because they always think big and make big MMOs (CO was supposed to be Marvel's) they get into financial crunch - but till now they haven't blundered - they have returned profit from their projects.
And regarding negatives of you listed above are much more.
I'm just getting the feeling that some of the new forum users are basically here to CRYPTIC bash, I get that some gamers get deeply offended and have problems letting go of past events...but honestly at this point the only thing you can do is try the game and if it isn'ty for you not play it.....you aren't going to change any minds, folks that hate CRYPTIC will continue to and folks that enjoy their games will continue as well.
I agree. There should be a Cryptic authored main campaign, without a doubt. If we wait all this time, and the game for the most part is an empty notebook, like Sir is assuming, then there's GOING to be a bunch of pissed off, game exiting members of the community. Some people wont wait around, while dreamweavers figure out how to make good USG.
Trying to claim or assume that this Neverwinter dev team is not knowledgeable in D&D lore, and therefore can not or will not present a main campaign setting, is faulty consulting work. As they have said countless time, they have been working tirelessly with WotC for months. They've also stated there's quite a few D&D fanatics on staff. Hell let's take your argument and assume they all lie and they had zero experience sitting at a table to play D&D. Even in that case, could you imagine how much they could pick up and learn from the likes of WotC and RA Salvatore walking around the office every day!? I would bet the farm and the legal crops that RA could come up with a few ideas for a main campaign for a few RL platinum pieces...
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BINGO!
And in following a couple of the writers on Google+ I do know that they are putting in insane hours on something.....and all my time working with developers I haven't seen writers do much else but write.
Ok! As I don't have patience and its night here, let me ask the question myself which I was waiting from because of my last response:-
An excellent question! You see, the reason is that cryptic doesn't get everything "right" the first time. It changes things and gets feedback from users.
Other companies like blizzard are already established and have blundered when they had monopoly (no competitors). They also made a lot of blunders and corrected them lot slower. These old companies have user data. They know if they do X, they will have to do Y and this will cause reaction Z. Cryptic has to ask for feedback for that. So their gave improve over time correcting their mistakes.
Now why will NW be different? Answer is PW. PW has lot of that data regarding what makes MMO users happy and what makes MMO users sad. Cryptic no longer needs to learn from mistakes unlike its previous games like STO and CO. Infact it already is.
So NW will be smoother with mistakes that don't make majority people irritated.
Those companies success stories have nothing to do with Cryptic's resume. And just because they make successful games doesn't mean they are all good games. For example, Blizzard may have the best selling MMO of all time on their resume, but the only games I ever thought were good were Diablo I and II. I havent played a Blizzard game since because I think they are junk. Yes, even WOW.
So who cares what you think about Cryptic. All those companies you mentioned has made mistakes. And Cryptic deserves a chance to get their game developed and launched before you slight them for not having the capability of making a good game. My 2 cents. And if you call me a Cryptic fan boy, this whole community will laugh at you.
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No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
I never said they cannot or will not present a main campaign setting. I'm sure they will. I just do not have a lot of confidence in their ability to tell a deep story with heavy character progression. These were the points I began responding to in this thread today.
I said it before and I will say it again. Neverwinter's revenue generation is going to come from Zen sales for purchasing items and services from the cash shop. There will be no subscription option. They have flat out said that they will not be selling quest content in the cash shop, and story is at the heart of quest content. Therefore there will be nothing post launch to make story a profitable element for them, therefore, post launch I don't see any significant dedication on their part to the development of story content... Unless they dress NPCs connected with a new quest in outfits you can buy in the cash shop, or if the quest introduces the player to new mechanics that comprise and indirectly monetized grindfest.
As to how well the writing team understands the Forgotten Realms and D&D, we shall have to see. Even if they nail it spot-on, it is what becomes the most profitable after launch that determines what gets the most developer attention. And it won't be story content.
No doubt. And I hope that is the case. RA's reputation is well earned in D&D lore circles. If he is directly involved with the writing, I won't worry so much. I'm not really worried about it anyway. I just want to discourage people from setting their expectations too high on the story and character progression aspect.
Because even if NW has the greatest story ever at launch, unless Cryptic is taking a total change of direction with NW from how they have treated mission/quest content in STO, then what it will end up getting post launch in that area will not be much of anything to write home about.
And if they have changed directions in that area, then someone needs to go over to the STO writing team and kick them very hard in the nether regions and get them on track.
It should be noted that Cryptic says they closely with CBS and the delivery of quality story content for STO has not improved all that much. So you will pardon me if I don't put much stock in how closely or tirelessly Cryptic says they work with the IP owners.
but I play one on the forums...
:P
They sure as heck shied away from any meaningful story in STO after the Foundry was implemented there, and it's got FAR more backdrop to pull from.
As was posted above, story missions aren't going to make Cryptic or PWE any money on this game directly. Any story added post-launch would, in theory, be loss-leader - this is why the Klingon faction in Star Trek Online will never be brought up to where we were told it would be pre-launch. DStahl said it himself that there aren't enough people playing Klingons and they won't make any money directly off the content.
That's also why the STO ZEN store has seen more updates since STO's launch than the rest of the game.
Emphasis mine.
As to the emphasized text, as much as I agree that some info is better than no info, I've witnessed "can't discuss that yet, but we hear ya" bemoaned here as well. Unfortunately, some people just aren't going to be staisfied no matter what. In regard to that, I kind of feel like Bill Cosby said it right: "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."
WHOA! I didn't know about that. That's exciting to me.
Emphasis still mine.
Now since we have a game closely monitored by WotC as well as given developmental freedom by PWE, I have no idea how the storyline will do and if the IP will be done right (restrictions by WotC or not) or just up to code. I'll note this: if this just becomes "how many of x race we can massacre" like STO did with the opposing faction leaders (Fed or Klingon) as their "storyline," I'll note why I like playing D&D is for the options besides killing for xp and look it as a failure due to cloning the last game.
But I think it won't be that bad an interpretation, so I hope.
Cryptic also was screwed by Microsoft when they were developing Marvel Heroes online, in mid development they asked Cryptic if they could Guarantee WoW like numbers, when Cryptic said of course not they pulled out, leaving cryptic to scramble to do something with hundreds of hours of development time.
Atari then gave them less than a year to release a MMO which screwed them again... people refuse to acknowledge things like this when they are venting their irrational Cryptic hate. Neverwinter is going to be the first game from Cryptic since CoH where a publisher hasn't been putting the screws to them demanding just idiotic things and expecting success.
And surprise surprise the game has taken home a slew of rewards and the media and those who have had hands on time can't stop gushing about it.
It just strengthens my belief that it isn't so much bad developers but greedy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> impatient publishers that are killing the genre .