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The Character Customization Cover-up
aandrethegiant
Member Posts: 3,369 Arc User
"FOUNDRY FOUNDRY FOUNDRY!!! Read all about it!!! Get your PDF file now 25 cents!!!" - paperboy of the 21st century with a touch of 1940.
Ok Cryptic, we've heard all about the Foundry. Its going to be a great tool. We got it. But the meat and potatoes of the game will not be the Foundry, but the Character Creation screens. How much control we have over the creation and building of our character will tie us that much closer to the D&D experience so many of us are anticipating.
Taking boring, cardboard cutout characters through an unlimited number of user generated content could be a downright drag, as a handicapped character creation/leveling system would not allot many of us the patience to even bother exploring deep enough to matter.
We need to see your work Cryptic, thus far. We know the races and classes proposed. We're expecting a few more classes and maybe another race, before launch. We knew this before the summer began.
But you cant say you'll help role players feel the Neverwinter world as you've said recently if you do not give us the ability to roll our toons, our way.
I feel NWO will live or die based on these three elements, in this order:
1. Character Customization
2. Combat
3. Foundry
If any one of the three is a bomb, I believe the game will fail.
What makes D&D so unique, and kept many millions of us role players as well as D&D RPG gamers engrossed over the decades was our connection with the character(s) we built and worlds we envision. Its what WE create, and envision that makes D&D work. You can not tell a role player, that they cannot roll the starting stats to their own creation. Let's hope Cryptic gives us a character customization palate that resembles the girth of the Foundry.
With 4e thrust into the spotlight once again, will it be able to redeem itself among the many millions of role players that have shied away from it? Will it prove its purpose online as WotC hyped up during the years? In Neverwinter we will find out the answers to those two questions.
One thing, at least in my mind, is certain. If Neverwinter has the best character creation system in MMO history, it will make WotC and PW/Cryptic an awful lot of money over the next 5-10 years, and more important will vindicate WotC from much of the bad publicity it took by the same folks who made legends out of Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
As for this generation of up-and-coming RPGers and MMOers, they can learn the inner beauty of Dungeons and Dragons, and make them wonder why it took them so long to find out.
Lets remove the blanket Cryptic. It's fine time to shed some light on what you've accomplished with the character builder, as you all get back home, from this most recent edition of PAX, to gather your thoughts on what to divulge to your community here waiting for something... new.
Ok Cryptic, we've heard all about the Foundry. Its going to be a great tool. We got it. But the meat and potatoes of the game will not be the Foundry, but the Character Creation screens. How much control we have over the creation and building of our character will tie us that much closer to the D&D experience so many of us are anticipating.
Taking boring, cardboard cutout characters through an unlimited number of user generated content could be a downright drag, as a handicapped character creation/leveling system would not allot many of us the patience to even bother exploring deep enough to matter.
We need to see your work Cryptic, thus far. We know the races and classes proposed. We're expecting a few more classes and maybe another race, before launch. We knew this before the summer began.
But you cant say you'll help role players feel the Neverwinter world as you've said recently if you do not give us the ability to roll our toons, our way.
I feel NWO will live or die based on these three elements, in this order:
1. Character Customization
2. Combat
3. Foundry
If any one of the three is a bomb, I believe the game will fail.
What makes D&D so unique, and kept many millions of us role players as well as D&D RPG gamers engrossed over the decades was our connection with the character(s) we built and worlds we envision. Its what WE create, and envision that makes D&D work. You can not tell a role player, that they cannot roll the starting stats to their own creation. Let's hope Cryptic gives us a character customization palate that resembles the girth of the Foundry.
With 4e thrust into the spotlight once again, will it be able to redeem itself among the many millions of role players that have shied away from it? Will it prove its purpose online as WotC hyped up during the years? In Neverwinter we will find out the answers to those two questions.
One thing, at least in my mind, is certain. If Neverwinter has the best character creation system in MMO history, it will make WotC and PW/Cryptic an awful lot of money over the next 5-10 years, and more important will vindicate WotC from much of the bad publicity it took by the same folks who made legends out of Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
As for this generation of up-and-coming RPGers and MMOers, they can learn the inner beauty of Dungeons and Dragons, and make them wonder why it took them so long to find out.
Lets remove the blanket Cryptic. It's fine time to shed some light on what you've accomplished with the character builder, as you all get back home, from this most recent edition of PAX, to gather your thoughts on what to divulge to your community here waiting for something... new.
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Post edited by aandrethegiant on
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To promote this game, we too need some information - like character customisation, and like the unanswered questions we asked in this thread. Afterall, we want to play this game with friends, not alone. And more people is good for NW also.
"This is a reasonable proposition. No?"
*keeps his piece down on table*
"Lets see how we can work this out."
EDIT: lol! Talk like a pirate day might change to talk like a 'Good Fella' month here.
Also unless you ave worked in the business it's hard to understand the power of marketing, if they say don't talk about it, devs won't...I have seen jobs lost because someone said more than they should and the reason is talking about something that hasn't been fully tested or that may or may not make it in can kill a communities confidence a perfect example was WoW's path of the titans...they gabbed about it at Blizzcon it didn't make it in and the fallout was amazing..... luckily Blizzard was big enough to withstand it, but a company that is trying to come back from two very bad MMO launches dose't have that luxury.
And honestly frustration aside I just don't see how posts like this helps, they aren't going to talk until Marketing says go so it's not going to flush them out and using terms like cover up isn't really looking at the big picture.
Don't really want to get into a back and forth, just trying to give you the perspective of someone who has worked with developers and the marketers that handle them.
The devs want to talk more about it...really really badly even, but for whatever reason it isn't time yet.
We shall see. I stand by my words. If people cannot connect to their characters they created, it is not D&D. This game NEEDS the role players, it needs the gamers that have played all the D&D RPGs of days gone by (Gold Box, Baldurs Gate franchises, etc), it needs the DDOers who learned about D&D thru DDO. In my eyes, it can not afford to not pull the majority of these three communities that show interest in this game.
For this game to succeed, I do believe it needs engrossing character creation and leveling systems. A great Foundry with impersonal characters I do believe will not only turn off the D&D generation of gamers, but also the Steam community of MMOers that already have played MMOs with powerful character creation systems. I do believe the game can fail without solid character customization.
I appreciate that you don't want a back n forth Stormdragon. Heck, both of us want to game to succeed, and even though you may not like my title, I think we know its a title based on a modicum of truth.
The marketing team indeed is in charge, and HAS decided to not discuss this integral part of the game (among answering many, many other questions). The D&D generation are not fools. The community here has obviously been trying to get answers so they can feel good enough about the game so they can start telling friends/family/guildies and ask them to join them in Neverwinter.
Any marketing team worth their weight in gold knows they need to get as many people to do the marketing for them as possible (by simply talking to their friends about the game).
Since Stormshade has stated he's part of the marketing team, and he is a decision maker, we know he can see our discussions, and offer his future customers insight on what they've accomplished, as well as allowing them to gauge how their gaming community feels about this topic.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Although it is true that many users would still be on even if they lock the build completely, limits on character customization would lock many of the core fans out - most who actually love the game enough to make foundry missions. So it is still important in a way.
That said, I do believe in what devs have made. Their product shown to us so far has been innovative in that "core" way which is D&D. Who else takes so much effort to make NPC dialogues use flowcharts? Or making character backgrounds have effect on abilities? - Obviously the core D&D type. So I believe devs are core D&D folks.
Regarding marketing, imo it leaves a lot to be desired. And it is important as 4e was good in many ways but probably arrogant marketing took it down(as evident from opinions of people on many forums, most who haven't ever played it even).
The WoW situation can be avoided by choosing wording carefully with a trusted community. E.g.
they can say that they are working on X feature but it may not make in the game, its in nascent stages - instead of saying it will surely be in.
Feedback 1
Then community exclaims if X feature is implemented it will be great! The finance says X feature should be in give Y amount of funds more for this.
Feeback 2
Response is lukewarm. The finance says if X feature surpasses old budget figures, scrap it.
- Win win situation for all. Ofcourse, this means the company has to trust in community first.
Gaming life or death?
I don't yell "THE SKY IS FALLING" unless they show me proof it IS falling, and ask other people to respond to facts not rampart speculation.
While I made my views clear in part II of my reply on the Foundry Review thread, I'd like to address this thread's wording here.
Saying there is a cover up or claiming the failure of a game unless x is released comes across as hostile, if not threatening. While I'm not claiming "game terrorism" language here, the wording makes game official people who read this possibly not want to respond as it could suggest a lack of respect, if not outright lack of maturity.
This written, if something happens to be not ready or plans to be released in a window of x time, that suggestion should be noted and it's a suggestion or estimate, not a promise in regards to x feature of Neverwinter. Not saying anything until a reviewer looks at a feature in a convention causes these responses more than open and frank discussions
I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying man.......I'm just saying for good or bad right or wrong this is how the industry is and it won't be changing any time soon.
I do sense that things are in the works that are not yet on the "In" list and we just won't hear about them until they are.
Thousands of feats, hybrids classes and that crazyness.
But, lets get real.
It will be a lot more simple.
To debate whether Cryptic has specifically chosen not to discuss Character Customization will be fruitless. We all know they have. The OP's title was designed solely to ignite our emotions, as well as the Cryptic suits, to engage in group conversation.
I admit the title is strong, but I believe it speaks a truth, albeit expresses a bit of our discontent in Cryptic's resilience to engage the community on this topic, and is necessary to get the most amount of opinions on this matter.
In this context, I'm not interested in a flame war of any kind. This is not a "we hate Cryptic thread." I simply want to get people talking. Heck, I think we all would like the discourse advanced to other game niceties beyond the Foundry. My method may be a bit blunt, and for that I will apologize, but I promise you, I'm just looking for new information like everybody else
As far as "the sky is falling," that's not what I was referring to. However, I really believe this game can (and very likely will) fail if one of the three bullets I mentioned above is handled poorly. Those are three very integral parts of this game, and they will affect all of us, and very well may sway many of our opinions one way or another.
On the bright side, #3 (the Foundry) looks so fantastic. It would be a crying shame if #1 (character customization) or #2 (combat) stands in our way of really enjoying the game for years to come.
#2 discussions for the most part will have to wait until we actually play the game. #1 however, like #3, can be discussed long before beta begins, as most of it is conceptual. Getting as much coded as possible in time for beta to begin would be beneficial for us all, and this stands as my Exhibit A on why I think it's a great idea for us, as the Neverwinter community to look beyond the Foundry, at many of the great features that this game will undoubtedly posses.
Together, I believe we can change the discourse, and help Cryptic's developers to create the very best game possible.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
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I am not disagreeing either, just presenting an alternate solution in which cryptic can handle the situation which in my opinion would be nice.
EDIT: Also, yes I understand applying new solutions brings new problems so a strategy which works is better, but I find it interesting to brainstrom for new ideas.
Yes, but cryptic did say that they are going to run the game for 10 years. I won't loose hope on it yet... or even after game is released without it all for that case
Forum activity keeps on decreasing every week, more so since delay was announced. It is good to lurk or sometimes strike a hot conversation
On a serious note, I would say andre perhaps got listless because of lack of answers to questions? No new questions have been answered on forums and the interviewers are not interested in game like us (as they aren't following it as we have) so their questions are very old, like a century old cheese... the only questions those interviewers ask are those which even we can answer (probably in more details with many references). And our questions aren't answered... waaa!!!!
LOL!! Waa! <--- That's partly accurate which makes it quite the funny.
Seriously though, you get the gist of the thread, and I hope many others do as well. I'm really interested in what everyone thinks... so don't hold back!
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
And if you responded this way with only a couple of the things that are done, to "get attention," instead of borderline "dramatic rant appearance," I never would have replied the way I did. I'm calling out the "No Drama" part of your sig Aandre.
See, there are good ways and bad ways of responding, even when getting much-needed attention. As to whether your responses crossed a line or not on your OP's, it has the multiple appearances of a tennis match.
You two do realize this was a holiday weekend AND a major convention (PAX) weekend? Not even waiting for the staff to come back and follow up on what they did the next starting work week seems impatient to say this kind of (literal or otherwise) ranting and crying was needed.
Now, if after this following week we still are in the same boat, and we actually are losing playerbase interest, then a swift kick in the pants (or at least Gibbs Slap) to PWE/Cryptic may be in order to start responding. But the quality and quantity will be their doing and not our call, both for marketing and legal release reasons.
I didn't rant. I just collected all questions in stromshade's thread which have not yet been answered. His last answer was:- "04-18-2012, 02:49 PM" in that thread which I don't think has anything to do with PAX. That time-space distortion was before the forums were merged. After that crypticmapolis was the one who answered a few foundry questions while ss only answered "beta keys" "when are videos" etc. and not any question about game itself. The mod thread wasn't revisited either for quite a long time.
If you are saying waiting on a reply for weeks (literally) is being impatient, I have to disagree here. And as for coming back and asking - its fine, they will come back and they will read. Nothing wrong with that.
There hasn't been any dev interaction yet on a sufficient level neither are there promised regular releases of news. And it has been 2 years that the community is hanging and hanging... and then being called impatient is...
And compare it to raiderZ during their lean times or other parallel website on PW - its better. Or check out CO forums after merger - its better, much better. NW community has been neglected for long time, and still is. The issues raised again and again have not been addressed properly... And I am afraid to get started for it will be a long list.
EDIT: Now that I remember all that old history of neglect from dev side, and remembering so many users who had left the NW forums after an year of waiting, I feel very angry. And when I now sit to think about it with respect to any other game of any other publisher - it has been pathetic when compared to just anyone. So I should perhaps take a break from here now. To not let my anger leak out on forums...
I really think you misread/misunderstand the OP, Truth.. There is really no "drama" or ranting intended or initiated in the OP or in any other post after it. They are just opinions of mine, based on many years of gaming rodeos I've rode thru.
The timing for the thread was intentional to get the attention of the media/marketing engine, so they can hear a bit about what we'd like to hear about. Do you think if they get on and simply discuss the Foundry, and leave us hanging for months on end, again, we'll be very happy? Do you think some/many forumites will lose interest? Maybe.
Im not angry Truth, in fact I'm very excited to hear all about PAX. A bit of (very) friendly advice: I believe you are the best choice for forum moderator, but I also believe you need to better allow folks space to voice their opinions, positive and negative... especially when its designed to improve communication, bring us together, and results in potentially a better game for us all. As long as its done with respect to everyone involved and follows the forums code of ethics, I believe discussing all game related topics, even hot button issues like this one, that are done in good faith, are imperative to a growing Neverwinter forum community.
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(Further comment on my quote and his will be discussed privately, and is not continuing here as to not have the appearance of singling anybody out, Aandre included. )
Good idea, looking forward it. Ya know I still love ya like a brother from another mother
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
I don't expect that to change here.
but I play one on the forums...
:P
This is what I hear, from quite a few sources. However dev comments made at recent shows shed some doubt tho. Hopefully, we can get some good news once they decide to tell us all about PAX!!
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
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I can read Gill's brown text fine. However, I can see how it may be challenging to some due to certain monitor setups or those with vision deficiencies.
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Yeah I will use white now. Was using brown to match the NW theme (and some art work I am working on).
So these are my thoughts on the entire topic at hand:
While I know we want 'info, info, info!' we have to respect that it will take time. Gamescom was a great surprise to get as much information about the Foundry as we have. We called for it for so long I really appreciate all the information they have shared.
However it's only been a couple of weeks since Gamescom so, yeah, there's not a lot of new information about the Foundry or the rest of the game...and we should respect that. Not much changes in such a short amount of time.
We did get some tiny tidbits of new info so while PAX did seem a bit redundant it did give us some highlights...
And at this point let's face it we should be happy to not be seeing more "Trickster Rogue Videos" which I can't even begin to explain how much I don't want to see another of those, no offense Cryptic.
So in the end I'd really love to see how character builds will be working. I'd love to get some information on what will be eventually possible if not at launch. But we have to understand that everything is still somewhat in the air and it's just not ready to be released.
We asked to see info on the Foundry and that request has been delivered. I just view it as a bit rude to so quickly turn in anger at not getting more info just two weeks after Gamecom even though many of us were hoping they had more up their sleeves.
Cryptic has done a lot more than other companies in the way of releasing information. I've seen companies so paranoid about dealing with their fanbase that they refuse to 'promise' (discuss upcoming) content until the day it's released because fans would complain if things were discussed and not added.
Seeing Cryptomopolis state that they *desire* with no promises to add in player heightmap editors for the foundry eventually was like being spoken to from heaven's gates compared to what I'm used to.
If I sound scolding here it's not intended to be insulting. It's just that things could be much worse, and I feel Cryptic is being as open as they can be while so much is still subject to change.
I'd love more information just as much as anybody else...but we've seen more new information in the last few months than the previous year combined and for that I am happy.
OFF TOPIC: Nooooo! Not a white board. Nothing! Nothing! Nothing! is worse! Nothing! It could be pink and I'd like it better than a damn white website! Ah the blasphemy!!!!
*gouges out eyes*
*deep breaths*
Nearly lost my cool...
I'm glad to see those have faith in Cryptic, and I wont let my dissatisfaction with them at the moment distract from it. I basically gave my opinion, from the heart, and I'm happy to read that many are satisfied taking a deep breathe and waiting for the next release of information.
At this point, I'll be taking a step back... and continue to enjoy reading the comments from the new faces that are appearing, and beginning to comment, a few of which have visited this thread (as well as those of you who I've become quite fond of over the past year...).
My spirits are still high for this game, and even higher for our growing and loyal community. I just can not wait to run with so many of you (and not with just the ones I seem to often agree with!). For now, the remainder of my patience needs to take a luxury cruise to an exotic island.
I'll be awaiting the good news from the devs whenever they are ready to release it.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
But for NW we have not seen or heard anything. In DDO you can build any number of class combos. Etc but actual pc looks are very limited (feel sorry for the half elves). Cryptic was always good about both build AND cosmetic control, yet we have not seen anything regarding either one yet.
I HOPE that they will continue to give us fantastic customization options, but a little voice keeps whispering to me - where is it?
I have loosely followed the game's production since initially hearing about it back when I bought Gauntelgrym some three years ago. I purposely didn't get too involved at the time to avoid any distress at having my desire's overrule my patience.
As a programmer myself I can truly relate to what any game's company has to go through for minimal progress and I think that is a big part to why my patience isn't truly tested when PAX brought little new to the table. I've been in their shoes and know why progress is so slow.
It would have been nice if Cryptic had something big planned for PAX but since they didn't give us much new I'm simply choosing to look at the bright side, they could have chosen to show another Trickster Rogue video at Gamescom and held off on the Foundry until PAX.
So I implore you to ask yourself, would you be so disheartened if they released The Foundry information last week instead of two weeks ago?
Also I hope you don't confuse me with mindless "I have faith in Cryptic!" slogans. I reserve my right to withdraw that at any time but for now they have done better than other game companies I have seen. That's the extent of my slogan at this point.
I hope your patience can recover enough to keep active on the forums soon. You're a valuable voice here and while I can truly sympathize with your plight it's not worth the bitterness.
Life's too short and all that nonsense ;-)
We'll get what we want in time...a year's a long time to wait...but anything good is worth waiting for. :-D
You misunderstand. The want of info is long gone with any expectations whatsoever so long ago... and that is not the issue at hand.
My beef with the cryptic is their massive neglect of the community. They have been constantly saying that they want to forge close relationship with community - all baloney. Have they ever asked for any suggestion? And even when given suggestions forcibly, have they ever shown interest?
The greater question is, how is this forum different or better than the forum to discuss the game when compared to say, MMORPG.com's forum of neverwinter game? The only answer I could find was that those forums are more pretty looking.
Has there been any forum event? Like contest etc which most games when nearing launch have? Has there been any contest at all? Nope.
The apathy of cryptic at this community itself is appalling and disturbing at the same time. This leads to a feeling of resentment which can worsen to indifference towards game visible from other members who had left community.
The problem is not lack of information but lack of involvement.