I know of Muls not being able to have children back in 2E (and mentioned in the novels) but what about 4E? I bought the Dark Sun manuals this week and haven't been able to read them completely but in the Mul section it's not mentioned that they cannot have children. Not that it matters for this game but I like Dark Sun. A pity that Neverwinter won't offer proper art assests for it.
Deva topic, I suppose that WoTC considered that creating a story for the Aasimar similar to that of the Tieflings (with Bael Turath and all that), would have been ridiculous and opted for the reincarnating Devas. Funny thing is that shifters in 4E are what Aasimar and Tieflings were in 2E: human descendants of a mix with a supernatural creature, that had left their bodies marked.
(I like the Devas anyways. Hope to see them as playable)
Muls : The Dark sun guide does not specifically say they can not have children. It says they are both male and female muls, gives traits, etc. The background is that most are born into slavery, etc. Thus it implies that they breed true (muls breed more muls) and no magic is needed (as in 2nd edition).
Fun race that I wish would eventually be playable.
Oh stats: +2 Con and +2 to Str or Wis
+2 Endurance, +2 streetwise
Feats: you can choose either human or dwarf racials
Mul Vitality: Increase healing surges by 1
Tireless: you need to sleep 6 hours in a 72 hour period to gain the benifit of extended rest.
Incredible Toughness: muls have the incredible toughness power by default.
Devas: I like them. The new FR book "Sword of the Gods" is quite entertaining (it stars a Deva).
It is one of the many little bits of colour and flavour that the Dark Sun setting seems to have lost in the conversion to 4E.
While I was always kinda bummed that muls were sterile in 2ed, I always accepted it as on of the drawbacks of the race as well as one of the background element of the setting, and have always been more bummed that they make wild changes like these between editions than by the fact half-dwarfs couldn't reproduce.
*sighs* Oh well, at least this helps explain a bit how they have so many mul slaves in Athas (if muls were really sterile as originally stated in the setting manuals, then it implies that there's a lot more human/dwarf action going on that you'd expect there to be :rolleyes:). Its just that it feels like they hacked off a bit of Dark Sun lore with this.
Muls : The Dark sun guide does not specifically say they can not have children. It says they are both male and female muls, gives traits, etc. The background is that most are born into slavery, etc. Thus it implies that they breed true (muls breed more muls) and no magic is needed (as in 2nd edition).
Actually no magic was needed in 2nd ed. It was just a normal human/dwarf union (unless you meant that magic was originally needed for muls to have children). The only magic needed to create a race in the original Dark Sun was for Half-Giants, and that was only in the distant past when the race was originally created (since humans and giants would find it difficult to mate).
Oh stats: +2 Con and +2 to Str or Wis
+2 Endurance, +2 streetwise
Feats: you can choose either human or dwarf racials
Mul Vitality: Increase healing surges by 1
Tireless: you need to sleep 6 hours in a 72 hour period to gain the benifit of extended rest.
Incredible Toughness: muls have the incredible toughness power by default.
Muls now get an option to have +2 to Wis in 4ed? Really? I don't remember muls being very "wise" originally
Deva's cannot have children in most places but can in the forgotten realms.
Devas work like in PHB 2, just that get known as Aasimar in FR setting. Such significant change to the race would have been noted in their description blocks of the FR player's book, but it's not. Just the deafult reincarnation and serving gods theme. Unless DDi stuff and/or errata updates that.
Actually no magic was needed in 2nd ed. It was just a normal human/dwarf union (unless you meant that magic was originally needed for muls to have children). The only magic needed to create a race in the original Dark Sun was for Half-Giants, and that was only in the distant past when the race was originally created (since humans and giants would find it difficult to mate).
I am probably wrong, been a long time since I played Dark Sun, but I thought Muls were rare because dwarf and humans could not actually crossbreed, and it took magic to create them, thus them being sterile.
I am probably wrong, been a long time since I played Dark Sun, but I thought Muls were rare because dwarf and humans could not actually crossbreed, and it took magic to create them, thus them being sterile.
Nah, dwarves and humans can breed just fine. Muls simply cannot. Lots of examples of this in nature, such as male ligers and tigons.
Its not uncommon for lore and details to be put out in the core books and then be tailored in the campaign setting. Local rules trump generic.
Deva's cannot have children in most places but can in the forgotten realms.
Seems clear enough to me.
- Bar
Actually, as I quoted, Devas in Forgotten Realms cannot have children as well. From Forgotten Realm's Player Guide:
Like their masters, devas accepted the fate
of perpetual reincarnation. For almost four thousand
years, each deva has been incarnated again and again
in the world of Toril.
Which is exactly the same thing stated in PHB 2, that they reincarnate in new body having no children, because no new Devas can be born from Deva.
One race I'd like to see, though I don't know if they have a presence in Forgotten Realms, are the Shadar-Kai. Probably not going to happen since the Shadar-Kai have a connection to the Raven Queen. Shifters would be another one I'd like have, especially since lycanthropy has a history in the Forgotten Realms. With Malar (who is gone now) and Selune fighting over the souls of lycans (not literally). And there are tribes of shifters along the Sword Coast, though closer to Baldur's Gate.
They are not a race in 4E Forgotten Realms specifically. For 4E, they appeared in Dragon 372 as a playable race, originating from the Shadowfell (in D&D's core world).
Actually, they are in FR. Have you read the article on wikia?
This article is taken, almost completely, from this book, and it never mentions the Realms in any way. On the contrary, in a Realms specific article in Dragon N° 391 it says that Shadar-kai are a race new to the Faerûn, partially descended from Shadovar and Krinths, or trasformed by Shar ("He called the new race the shadar-kai in the high tongue of ancient Netheril, which means Those of Shadow’s Gift"). So.. I would change or delete (almost) all of the content.
Actually, they are in FR. Have you read the article on wikia?
I said "specifically," which means that they are not unique to FR. Also, I was not arguing your claim, simply adding information as found in the DDI Compendium.
Didn't want anyone ordering the FR Player's Guide expecting that race to appear there.
Anyway, I'm curious how often they will add new classes or races? Once every month maybe?
New race needs: model (i.e. very similar to humans are easy, minotaurs are more difficult), that armours/robes fit them well (clipping and such), maybe animations not related to class (dragonborn's breath attack).
New class needs: tons of powers (right now "just" 10 levels, much more time required for more levels), animations for those powers (for each race that may require race specific tweaking), powers testing.
More or less that would be. So classes once a month? No. New race each month? Some would be doable, others not. imho
Ooh that's cool, they weren't mentioned in the Forgotten Realms Player's Handbook, but neither did it include Malar who is in the campaign guide. I played a Shadar-Kai in an ill fated adventure, but found them interesting.
If we could get all these races in, I wonder how hard it would be to sort of fudge up modules as if they were a different IP. I mean, with minotaurs could we do a sort of version of The Legend of Huma?
Deva : Mages and clerics
Humans : all
Goliath : Tank and Melee pgs
Half-orc : same as Goliath
Eladrin/Elf : all
Dwarf : everything except magic classes
Halfing : everything, more or less
Tiefling : all
One might think that we'd start with all the non-‘supporting cast’ races listed in FRPG (dragonborn, drow, dwarves, eladrin, elves, genasi, half-elves, halflings, humans, tieflings), with the supporting cast, PHb2, and PHb3 races trickling into the Cryptic Store thereafter.
But I suspect we'll start with about half that, judging by the starting class lineup.
How about the rest of you, what do you want in the way of races in the game?
Oh, what do I want?
My preferences for play are surprisingly easy to rank:
Eladrin - My signature character for the Realms is a Moon Elf, although I play him much more like a Sun Elf (which I'd say describes a Star Elf, but I doubt they'll ever be seen again). I'd be strongly compelled to play the same here out of habit and sentimentality.
Shardmind - I wouldn't normally go for something quite so inhuman, as in fantasy settings that tends to mean something bestial, but the alien intellects of the shardminds tickle me the right way. Also, they're shiny.
Gnome - I like their makeover and their place in Toril. There's now an elvish quality to them, hinting of Tolkien's ‘gnomes’ (the Noldor), yet they're still small and recognizable as more contemporary gnomes. I'm fond.
Half-elf - I hated them for a long time because of the players who favored them, but I've since established a half-elven character concept that I'm surprisingly happy with.
Tiefling - I'd be interested in counteracting the angsty stereotype they've developed.
Eladrin - My signature character for the Realms is a Moon Elf, although I play him much more like a Sun Elf (which I'd say describes a Star Elf, but I doubt they'll ever be seen again). I'd be strongly compelled to play the same here out of habit and sentimentality.
Shardmind - I wouldn't normally go for something quite so inhuman, as in fantasy settings that tends to mean something bestial, but the alien intellects of the shardminds tickle me the right way. Also, they're shiny.
Gnome - I like their makeover and their place in Toril. There's now an elvish quality to them, hinting of Tolkien's ‘gnomes’ (the Noldor), yet they're still small and recognizable as more contemporary gnomes. I'm fond.
Half-elf - I hated them for a long time because of the players who favored them, but I've since established a half-elven character concept that I'm surprisingly happy with.
Tiefling - I'd be interested in counteracting the angsty stereotype they've developed.
I like this list, and agree with what you said about the Gnome and Tiefling. Though I always felt that the Half-Elves got overlooked by many players because they weren't _________ (fill in the blank how you see it, but for my group it would be powerful) enough. My brother would play Half-Elf Bards and Paladins, and his diplomacy would skyrocket. I tell one of the guys whose making the diplomat that, and he'd say 'it didn't fit his build'.
I guess if I'd have to say the races I look forward to playing are:
Dwarves: They are my favorite race, and the very first character I made in D&D was a Dwarven Cleric.
Tieflings: Dark, mysterious, and cunning. They are exactly what I look for in characters that walk on the gray side of morality. Who needs those Drow posers!?
Shadar Kai: Live in a harsh environment and follow the Raven Queen (my favorite deity from the new Gray Hawk)...well not in Toril...but you get the idea.
Genasi: This is the one race that makes me think of Forgotten Realms. I like the new look they received for 4E to boot.
1. Eladrin or Drow - my favourite race, especially Sun Elves and Drow, since I like that arrogance they share :P
2. Tieflings - always found their concept interesting, together with Aasimar, they needed to go through lots of superstition.
3. Genasi - Wind Genasi, with their airy attitude and no constrains... love them
4. Gnome - cuz it's always fun to be gnome
5. Volodni - i don;t think this race has been yet introduced into 4 ed. They are plant people, refugees who fled from Narfell, changed and protected by Silvanus.
I may be totally mistaken but I think Volodni are now Wilden (they have the exact same powers, etc.). I liked the Volodni in "The Restless Shore", a cool character. I read the Wilden description and the powers are almost identical to the ones I found for Volodni online, so maybe Volodni are now a offshoot of Wilden if not Wilden themselves.
I certainly understand that some people take great pleasure in having options, and have aesthetic considerations that make non human/demi-human racial options sound very cool.
I'm more of an old-school, boxed-edition kind of guy, and enjoy narrower race and class palettes, and the need to differentiate based on play-style and RP (which may not be doable in a Co-Op RPG).
I'd like to see a compromise where you have an initial palette at the beginning, but that allows for people to unlock other options via play, kind of like what DDO does. Maybe you have to take two different classes to 10th level (or something like that) before you can make a Deva character. That way, players who want to have options can get them, but maybe some of the rareness of those options is preserved.
I certainly understand that some people take great pleasure in having options, and have aesthetic considerations that make non human/demi-human racial options sound very cool.
I'm more of an old-school, boxed-edition kind of guy, and enjoy narrower race and class palettes, and the need to differentiate based on play-style and RP (which may not be doable in a Co-Op RPG).
I'd like to see a compromise where you have an initial palette at the beginning, but that allows for people to unlock other options via play, kind of like what DDO does. Maybe you have to take two different classes to 10th level (or something like that) before you can make a Deva character. That way, players who want to have options can get them, but maybe some of the rareness of those options is preserved.
While I have no problem with that, I would like to point out that DDO had nothing but complaining threads regarding this very thing. Remember all the threads about 32pt builds at 1750 favor? The whole (I have to grind a character I do not even want in order to get ...)
I think it is best for the game to have the races/classes be fully available to the players in many forms. IE the favor unlock along with an option to just buy the thing, or be part of paid expansions, or free updates. (OOOH! Free! FREE!)
But if they do anything else, anything that requires effort to unlock, we will get the complaint threads and it will reflect negatively to new players. (IMO)
Comments
As far as I can tell, it isn't ever mentioned in any of the 4E Dark Sun books (of which there are only 2 + 1 Adventure).
It is one of the many little bits of colour and flavour that the Dark Sun setting seems to have lost in the conversion to 4E.
Muls : The Dark sun guide does not specifically say they can not have children. It says they are both male and female muls, gives traits, etc. The background is that most are born into slavery, etc. Thus it implies that they breed true (muls breed more muls) and no magic is needed (as in 2nd edition).
Fun race that I wish would eventually be playable.
Oh stats: +2 Con and +2 to Str or Wis
+2 Endurance, +2 streetwise
Feats: you can choose either human or dwarf racials
Mul Vitality: Increase healing surges by 1
Tireless: you need to sleep 6 hours in a 72 hour period to gain the benifit of extended rest.
Incredible Toughness: muls have the incredible toughness power by default.
Devas: I like them. The new FR book "Sword of the Gods" is quite entertaining (it stars a Deva).
While I was always kinda bummed that muls were sterile in 2ed, I always accepted it as on of the drawbacks of the race as well as one of the background element of the setting, and have always been more bummed that they make wild changes like these between editions than by the fact half-dwarfs couldn't reproduce.
*sighs* Oh well, at least this helps explain a bit how they have so many mul slaves in Athas (if muls were really sterile as originally stated in the setting manuals, then it implies that there's a lot more human/dwarf action going on that you'd expect there to be :rolleyes:). Its just that it feels like they hacked off a bit of Dark Sun lore with this.
Actually no magic was needed in 2nd ed. It was just a normal human/dwarf union (unless you meant that magic was originally needed for muls to have children). The only magic needed to create a race in the original Dark Sun was for Half-Giants, and that was only in the distant past when the race was originally created (since humans and giants would find it difficult to mate).
Muls now get an option to have +2 to Wis in 4ed? Really? I don't remember muls being very "wise" originally
Its not uncommon for lore and details to be put out in the core books and then be tailored in the campaign setting. Local rules trump generic.
Deva's cannot have children in most places but can in the forgotten realms.
Seems clear enough to me.
- Bar
I am probably wrong, been a long time since I played Dark Sun, but I thought Muls were rare because dwarf and humans could not actually crossbreed, and it took magic to create them, thus them being sterile.
Actually, as I quoted, Devas in Forgotten Realms cannot have children as well. From Forgotten Realm's Player Guide:
Which is exactly the same thing stated in PHB 2, that they reincarnate in new body having no children, because no new Devas can be born from Deva.
Didn't want anyone ordering the FR Player's Guide expecting that race to appear there.
Anyway, I'm curious how often they will add new classes or races? Once every month maybe?
New class needs: tons of powers (right now "just" 10 levels, much more time required for more levels), animations for those powers (for each race that may require race specific tweaking), powers testing.
More or less that would be. So classes once a month? No. New race each month? Some would be doable, others not. imho
Ooh that's cool, they weren't mentioned in the Forgotten Realms Player's Handbook, but neither did it include Malar who is in the campaign guide. I played a Shadar-Kai in an ill fated adventure, but found them interesting.
Every month seems a bit ambitious, don't you think?
Deva : Mages and clerics
Humans : all
Goliath : Tank and Melee pgs
Half-orc : same as Goliath
Eladrin/Elf : all
Dwarf : everything except magic classes
Halfing : everything, more or less
Tiefling : all
I think these could be the playable races
But I suspect we'll start with about half that, judging by the starting class lineup.
Not that I'd be devastated to be wrong.
Oh, what do I want?
My preferences for play are surprisingly easy to rank:
I like this list, and agree with what you said about the Gnome and Tiefling. Though I always felt that the Half-Elves got overlooked by many players because they weren't _________ (fill in the blank how you see it, but for my group it would be powerful) enough. My brother would play Half-Elf Bards and Paladins, and his diplomacy would skyrocket. I tell one of the guys whose making the diplomat that, and he'd say 'it didn't fit his build'.
I guess if I'd have to say the races I look forward to playing are:
Dwarves: They are my favorite race, and the very first character I made in D&D was a Dwarven Cleric.
Tieflings: Dark, mysterious, and cunning. They are exactly what I look for in characters that walk on the gray side of morality. Who needs those Drow posers!?
Shadar Kai: Live in a harsh environment and follow the Raven Queen (my favorite deity from the new Gray Hawk)...well not in Toril...but you get the idea.
Genasi: This is the one race that makes me think of Forgotten Realms. I like the new look they received for 4E to boot.
1. Eladrin or Drow - my favourite race, especially Sun Elves and Drow, since I like that arrogance they share :P
2. Tieflings - always found their concept interesting, together with Aasimar, they needed to go through lots of superstition.
3. Genasi - Wind Genasi, with their airy attitude and no constrains... love them
4. Gnome - cuz it's always fun to be gnome
5. Volodni - i don;t think this race has been yet introduced into 4 ed. They are plant people, refugees who fled from Narfell, changed and protected by Silvanus.
Could be, maybe I was thinking of the Killoren. One of the plant people seem to be changed into Wilden.
I'm more of an old-school, boxed-edition kind of guy, and enjoy narrower race and class palettes, and the need to differentiate based on play-style and RP (which may not be doable in a Co-Op RPG).
I'd like to see a compromise where you have an initial palette at the beginning, but that allows for people to unlock other options via play, kind of like what DDO does. Maybe you have to take two different classes to 10th level (or something like that) before you can make a Deva character. That way, players who want to have options can get them, but maybe some of the rareness of those options is preserved.
While I have no problem with that, I would like to point out that DDO had nothing but complaining threads regarding this very thing. Remember all the threads about 32pt builds at 1750 favor? The whole (I have to grind a character I do not even want in order to get ...)
I think it is best for the game to have the races/classes be fully available to the players in many forms. IE the favor unlock along with an option to just buy the thing, or be part of paid expansions, or free updates. (OOOH! Free! FREE!)
But if they do anything else, anything that requires effort to unlock, we will get the complaint threads and it will reflect negatively to new players. (IMO)