I think that having the basic races is best and then add subraces to them this way a person running a custom adventure has the ability to allow or not the multitude of races via a subrace system.
Example
Human
Dwarf
Elf
Dragonborn
Halfling/gnome
and make the subraces be( but not limited to)
Half-orc
drow
half-dragon
half-elf
etc.
and put them under whatever makes most sense for balance and game rules. Now a person making their own adventure can chose to not allow "X" subraces in their adventure but one can still play using the parent class (all subrace benefits and feats are not present in that adventure or one has to role play as if a Human not an Aasmier (example). Kind of like putting on a magical armor that improves stats but in this case is the subrace title which can be removed or added to satisfy the adventure with out having to make a new character every time.
My Human-Aasmier-Paladin can be played as human or as an Aasmier and attributes added or changed according to the players choice on that particular adventure it is always a Paladin. Hope it makes sense I am terrible at explaining sorry.
Of course, the drow are not a subrace. Not in 3.5e and certainly not in 4e. They are a core race of 4e Forgotten Realms, along with the genasi. Whereas gnomes are not.
I think it will be very negative if Drows, Dragonborns, Half-Orcs, Goblins, walking in Neverwinter streets.
But it will be funny, if later come an expansion with title "underdark or smg." where gamers could playing with this races in different storyline, homeland, etc.
Conversely I wish that bacis class come first:
Human
Elf (sun-moon)
Half-elf
Dwarf
Halfing
Homeland and Storyline contract with Neverwinter.
Exp. I:
Drow
Half-orc
Dragonborn
Goblin
Homeland and storyline contract against neverwinter or smg.
As for me I think it would be rather positive. Neverwinter was destroyed, now is being rebuild, community is being developed and many different races would seek to gain some support or district for themselves. It is a great opportunity for a number of races.
Half-orcs, Drows, Goblins, Humans, Elfes etc. cant live eachother in peace in same town. I think If they live together it will be lost the "essence" of the Forgotten Realms world.
Not so much. Whatever the "essence" is. Drows and humans lived already together. Half-orcs as well. Learn a bit about Thesk for example. After the wars many orcs, not half-orcs, started to live there with humans and people were ok with it. Or let's think of Thay where Gnolls used to live with humans, and so on. Silverymoon is pretty tolerant as well.
We are talking of adventurer races, not whole populations. That makes "alien" races potentially more tolerable (which is not the same as potentially more liked).
Many of the larger cities like Waterdeep allow other races into the city if they have business in the city. They may not go unwatched, but they do go in. And many of you seem to forget that Neverwinter is on the frontier. Often many races will band together if the need arises, even sworn enemies...though they tend to slip back into violence when the trouble passes.
I base what type of monsters and standard species which should be playable by if they have 2 ability scores which fill your top two ability scores.
classes in game based phb 1.
Cleric- #1 str or wis #2 wis or cha
Fighter-#1 str #2 con or dex or wis
Ranger- #1 dex or str, #2 str or dex
Rogue- #1 dex, #2 str or cha
Wizard- #1 Int, #2 wis or dex
Good choices
Human +2 any one score and extra feat
Dwarf +2 con, +2 wis
Elf +2 Dex, +2 wis
1/2 Elf +2 Con, +2 Cha
Tiefling +2 Int, +2 cha (could be problematic if warlock becomes a class)
Dragonborn +2 str, +2Cha (could be problematic if Paladin becomes a class)
Gnome +2 Int, +2 Cha (could be problematic if warlock becomes a class)
Hobgoblin +2 con, +2 Cha
Kobold +2 Con, +2 Dex
Shifter, Razorclaw +2Dex, +2 Wis
Githyanki +2 Con, +2 Int (could be problematic if Warlock becomes a Class
Githzerai +2 Dex, +2 Wis
Gnoll +2 con, +2 Dex
Bad choices
Drow, Halfing, Goblin +2 Dex, +2Cha have a primary and secondary bonus to ability score for rogue.
Minotaur, Orc, Warforged +2 Str, +2 Con have a primary and secondary bonus to ability score for Fighter.
Bugbear +2 Str, +2 Dex have primary and secondary bonus to ability score for fighter.
Solutions for the bad choices.
1. Class exclusion (don't like this)
2. -2 in abilities tertiary to class advantage. Minotaur, Orc, warforged -2 dex, -2 wis. Drow, Halfling, Goblin -2 str. ( I tend to like this better)
3. Have no species ability bonuses.
Dwarf +2 con, +2 wis
Elf +2 Dex, +2 wis
1/2 Elf +2 Con, +2 Cha
Tiefling +2 Int, +2 cha (could be problematic if warlock becomes a class)
Dragonborn +2 str, +2Cha (could be problematic if Paladin becomes a class)
Errata'd post-PHB3 in the Compendium and with the updated versions also printing in the Essentials books.
Human stats stayed the same but they choose between the bonus At-Will or the "Heroic Effort" encounter ability.
Dwarf: +2 con and either +2 str or +2 wis
Elf: +2 dex and either +2 int or +2 wis
1/2 Elf: +2 con and either +2 cha or +2 wis
Tiefling: +2 cha and either +2 con or +2 int
Dragonborn: +2 cha and either +2 con or +2 str
Gnome: +2 int and either +2 cha or +2 dex
Githzerai: +2 wis and either +2 dex or +2 int
Drow: +2 dex and either +2 cha or +2 wis
Halfling: +2 dex and either +2 cha or +2 con
Shifter, Longtooth: +2 str and +2 wis
Shifter, Razorclaw: +2 dex and +2 wis
Minotaur: +2 str and either +2 con or +2 wix
Warforged: +2 con and either +2 int or +2 str
The rest of them (basically the non-PHB races) didn't have any change in stats.
I base what type of monsters and standard species which should be playable by if they have 2 ability scores which fill your top two ability scores.
classes in game based phb 1.
Cleric- #1 str or wis #2 wis or cha
Fighter-#1 str #2 con or dex or wis
Ranger- #1 dex or str, #2 str or dex
Rogue- #1 dex, #2 str or cha
Wizard- #1 Int, #2 wis or dex
Good choices
Human +2 any one score and extra feat
Dwarf +2 con, +2 wis
Elf +2 Dex, +2 wis
1/2 Elf +2 Con, +2 Cha
Tiefling +2 Int, +2 cha (could be problematic if warlock becomes a class)
Dragonborn +2 str, +2Cha (could be problematic if Paladin becomes a class)
Gnome +2 Int, +2 Cha (could be problematic if warlock becomes a class)
Hobgoblin +2 con, +2 Cha
Kobold +2 Con, +2 Dex
Shifter, Razorclaw +2Dex, +2 Wis
Githyanki +2 Con, +2 Int (could be problematic if Warlock becomes a Class
Githzerai +2 Dex, +2 Wis
Gnoll +2 con, +2 Dex
Bad choices
Drow, Halfing, Goblin +2 Dex, +2Cha have a primary and secondary bonus to ability score for rogue.
Minotaur, Orc, Warforged +2 Str, +2 Con have a primary and secondary bonus to ability score for Fighter.
Bugbear +2 Str, +2 Dex have primary and secondary bonus to ability score for fighter.
Solutions for the bad choices.
1. Class exclusion (don't like this)
2. -2 in abilities tertiary to class advantage. Minotaur, Orc, warforged -2 dex, -2 wis. Drow, Halfling, Goblin -2 str. ( I tend to like this better)
3. Have no species ability bonuses.
So those races you chose as bad, are bad because they fit only one class? Just because they fit only one class doesn't mean people will play them with the other classes.
I can understand what some of the fuss is about. Monsters are monsters, evil beings should be evil. Way too many people want to play demons, drows and other type of creatures. I can understand it can be boring playing the same type of races but still, it's the way it is.
Just a correction from my earlier comment that Dragonborn existed in 3.5, and were called Dragonborn of Bahamut. A player would have to be reborn as a Dragonborn. It was found in Races of the Dragon.
Core D&D book, not Forgotten Realms. Doesn't mean they where present in the Faerun.
- Bar
PS - Not that its terribly relavent for this discussion. Dragonborn and Teiflings would be nice additions to add the 4e flavor to things... Eladrin too.
So those races you chose as bad, are bad because they fit only one class? Just because they fit only one class doesn't mean people will play them with the other classes.
No you misunderstand. bad in that they have an advantage having a primary and secondary skill in a class while other species do not. Kinda a mute point since according to Hythian phb 3 adds more options for +2 stat ability for species which did not get such an advantage in phb 1.
No you misunderstand. bad in that they have an advantage having a primary and secondary skill in a class while other species do not. Kinda a mute point since according to Hythian phb 3 adds more options for +2 stat ability for species which did not get such an advantage in phb 1.
No you misunderstand. bad in that they have an advantage having a primary and secondary skill in a class while other species do not. Kinda a mute point since according to Hythian phb 3 adds more options for +2 stat ability for species which did not get such an advantage in phb 1.
It was errata for PHB1/2 that came out after PHB3 when they switched the racial bonus format over to one fixed +2 stat and two other stats you chose between for the +2.
The MM races are still the fixed +2 on two without the option, but I can't imagine that that MM races are very high on the to-do list versus all of the in-canon and out-of-canon PHB races for FR.
(Need to see if I can't somehow manage to fit in even more 2 or 3 letter acronyms in these posts to make them even more cryptic...)
No you misunderstand. bad in that they have an advantage having a primary and secondary skill in a class while other species do not. Kinda a mute point since according to Hythian phb 3 adds more options for +2 stat ability for species which did not get such an advantage in phb 1.
Hey look at humans they have an advantage in any class they choose, and players will choose them because it is advantageous. Just like picking a half-orc for a fighter or tiefling for a warlock. If an advantage is available some players will take it, and those of us who play the game from a role-playing standard tend to call them power gamers (okay doesn't exactly fit). There is no reason some of those races you mentioned to not be allowed just because they fit one class exceptionally well. There will be players who chose to use that race in the non-standard way. Like a minotaur cleric or a gnome barbarian.
Hey look at humans they have an advantage in any class they choose, and players will choose them because it is advantageous. Just like picking a half-orc for a fighter or tiefling for a warlock. If an advantage is available some players will take it, and those of us who play the game from a role-playing standard tend to call them power gamers (okay doesn't exactly fit). There is no reason some of those races you mentioned to not be allowed just because they fit one class exceptionally well. There will be players who chose to use that race in the non-standard way. Like a minotaur cleric or a gnome barbarian.
I don't quite follow you here a human only gets one +2. While he can pick where it goes all classes have a primary and secondary ability while some have tertiary ability's.
Of course some folks will use a race in a non-standard race i plan to have a half elf fighter. But i bet ya your keg of ale that more will pick a race that has an advantage over any other race in a particular class. You can see this in any mmo on the market which has such a distinction.
I much prefer to only see PC's as the "basic" races.
Human
Dwarf
Elf
Halfling
etc.
But that's just the old school player in me going back as far as 2E. I appreciate that people want to be all unique and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>... half fire elemental, half hill giant, half chromatic dragon, half drow, half planar demon, ... you get the picture.
My favorite characters were plain jane races/classes who became heroic through adventures and deeds rather than some wild fanciful birth or birthright.
Hell.... my absolute favorite is/was a rather innocuous human. A fighter/bard who specialized in mounted combat. He worked his way up through the ranks only to be killed in action leading the defenders of a mountain pass against a large band of marauding orcs. A simple character concept, mundane career choice (soldier) iconic race struggle (human settlements resisting orc raids) and yet it's still one of my favorite D&D memories/campaigns.
I know the world is changed, monstrous races are more prevalent, etc. etc.
I also know that Cryptic favors choice.
I'm sure I'll see so many Drizzt clones it'll make my eyes bleed.
But, I'd really just prefer to see the basic race/class choices.
I don't quite follow you here a human only gets one +2. While he can pick where it goes all classes have a primary and secondary ability while some have tertiary ability's.
Humans also get a bonus feat, a bonus trained skill and a bonus to their non-AC defenses, all of which are often far more useful then another races +2 to a secondary stat for their class. As well as a choice between another At-Will class ability or the "Heroic Effort" encounter abilty.
The stat bonuses aren't the only thing you have to look at in terms of balancing races or in what races people may choose. The other abilities like the fact that Elves have a 7 move instead of the normal 6 or the low-light or darkvision abilities all go into race balance and trying to keep them on par with one another in terms of nifty things they can do.
What I wonder is with a lot of these abilities maybe not translating well into a co-op RPG game (vision abilities, different movement rates, etc often aren't adapted well) if an effort will be made to tweak the racial descriptions / bonuses a little to make them remain balanced out in the game.
I much prefer to only see PC's as the "basic" races.
Human
Dwarf
Elf
Halfling
etc.
But that's just the old school player in me going back as far as 2E. I appreciate that people want to be all unique and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>... half fire elemental, half hill giant, half chromatic dragon, half drow, half planar demon, ... you get the picture.
My favorite characters were plain jane races/classes who became heroic through adventures and deeds rather than some wild fanciful birth or birthright.
Hell.... my absolute favorite is/was a rather innocuous human. A fighter/bard who specialized in mounted combat. He worked his way up through the ranks only to be killed in action leading the defenders of a mountain pass against a large band of marauding orcs. A simple character concept, mundane career choice (soldier) iconic race struggle (human settlements resisting orc raids) and yet it's still one of my favorite D&D memories/campaigns.
I know the world is changed, monstrous races are more prevalent, etc. etc.
I also know that Cryptic favors choice.
I'm sure I'll see so many Drizzt clones it'll make my eyes bleed.
But, I'd really just prefer to see the basic race/class choices.
While I will admit that seeing a million dual wielding Drow rangers would be troublesome I still believe all playable races should be in-game eventually( I like how Cryptic releases the rarer species over time and charges for them; that way they generally stay a little rarer).
I don't quite follow you here a human only gets one +2. While he can pick where it goes all classes have a primary and secondary ability while some have tertiary ability's.
Of course some folks will use a race in a non-standard race i plan to have a half elf fighter. But i bet ya your keg of ale that more will pick a race that has an advantage over any other race in a particular class. You can see this in any mmo on the market which has such a distinction.
I won't take that bet, because I agree that more players then not will choose a race that gives them an advantage. Of course as Hythian mentioned humans have other traits that make them advantageous. Even if players choose races that give them an advantage in their class let's hope they give those characters some flavor. Dwarves bonuses are useful for clerics, I won't deny that. But my first D&D character was a Dwarven Cleric of Moradin, and he was one of my favorite characters.
While I will admit that seeing a million dual wielding Drow rangers would be troublesome I still believe all playable races should be in-game eventually( I like how Cryptic releases the rarer species over time and charges for them; that way they generally stay a little rarer).
That is an interesting take on it. Racial demographic balance is always tricky. We don't use a lot of NPCs so the population of our PW is all PCs. Lots of Teifers and drow with few humans are hard to explain in most backgrounds.
A mechanism to make humans more the rule would be interesting, but I bet controversial.
Comments
Example
Human
Dwarf
Elf
Dragonborn
Halfling/gnome
and make the subraces be( but not limited to)
Half-orc
drow
half-dragon
half-elf
etc.
and put them under whatever makes most sense for balance and game rules. Now a person making their own adventure can chose to not allow "X" subraces in their adventure but one can still play using the parent class (all subrace benefits and feats are not present in that adventure or one has to role play as if a Human not an Aasmier (example). Kind of like putting on a magical armor that improves stats but in this case is the subrace title which can be removed or added to satisfy the adventure with out having to make a new character every time.
My Human-Aasmier-Paladin can be played as human or as an Aasmier and attributes added or changed according to the players choice on that particular adventure it is always a Paladin. Hope it makes sense I am terrible at explaining sorry.
But it will be funny, if later come an expansion with title "underdark or smg." where gamers could playing with this races in different storyline, homeland, etc.
Conversely I wish that bacis class come first:
Human
Elf (sun-moon)
Half-elf
Dwarf
Halfing
Homeland and Storyline contract with Neverwinter.
Exp. I:
Drow
Half-orc
Dragonborn
Goblin
Homeland and storyline contract against neverwinter or smg.
As for me I think it would be rather positive. Neverwinter was destroyed, now is being rebuild, community is being developed and many different races would seek to gain some support or district for themselves. It is a great opportunity for a number of races.
NPC. Dragonborn of half-dragon would also be very interesting.
classes in game based phb 1.
Cleric- #1 str or wis #2 wis or cha
Fighter-#1 str #2 con or dex or wis
Ranger- #1 dex or str, #2 str or dex
Rogue- #1 dex, #2 str or cha
Wizard- #1 Int, #2 wis or dex
Good choices
Human +2 any one score and extra feat
Dwarf +2 con, +2 wis
Elf +2 Dex, +2 wis
1/2 Elf +2 Con, +2 Cha
Tiefling +2 Int, +2 cha (could be problematic if warlock becomes a class)
Dragonborn +2 str, +2Cha (could be problematic if Paladin becomes a class)
Gnome +2 Int, +2 Cha (could be problematic if warlock becomes a class)
Hobgoblin +2 con, +2 Cha
Kobold +2 Con, +2 Dex
Shifter, Razorclaw +2Dex, +2 Wis
Githyanki +2 Con, +2 Int (could be problematic if Warlock becomes a Class
Githzerai +2 Dex, +2 Wis
Gnoll +2 con, +2 Dex
Bad choices
Drow, Halfing, Goblin +2 Dex, +2Cha have a primary and secondary bonus to ability score for rogue.
Minotaur, Orc, Warforged +2 Str, +2 Con have a primary and secondary bonus to ability score for Fighter.
Bugbear +2 Str, +2 Dex have primary and secondary bonus to ability score for fighter.
Solutions for the bad choices.
1. Class exclusion (don't like this)
2. -2 in abilities tertiary to class advantage. Minotaur, Orc, warforged -2 dex, -2 wis. Drow, Halfling, Goblin -2 str. ( I tend to like this better)
3. Have no species ability bonuses.
Errata'd post-PHB3 in the Compendium and with the updated versions also printing in the Essentials books.
Human stats stayed the same but they choose between the bonus At-Will or the "Heroic Effort" encounter ability.
Dwarf: +2 con and either +2 str or +2 wis
Elf: +2 dex and either +2 int or +2 wis
1/2 Elf: +2 con and either +2 cha or +2 wis
Tiefling: +2 cha and either +2 con or +2 int
Dragonborn: +2 cha and either +2 con or +2 str
Gnome: +2 int and either +2 cha or +2 dex
Githzerai: +2 wis and either +2 dex or +2 int
Drow: +2 dex and either +2 cha or +2 wis
Halfling: +2 dex and either +2 cha or +2 con
Shifter, Longtooth: +2 str and +2 wis
Shifter, Razorclaw: +2 dex and +2 wis
Minotaur: +2 str and either +2 con or +2 wix
Warforged: +2 con and either +2 int or +2 str
The rest of them (basically the non-PHB races) didn't have any change in stats.
So those races you chose as bad, are bad because they fit only one class? Just because they fit only one class doesn't mean people will play them with the other classes.
and leave lynanthropes out as well its a curse shouldnt be trying to emulate wow.
And no, lycanthropy isn't always a curse. There are natural lycanthropes, there are lytharii, wereleve, and many other.
Core D&D book, not Forgotten Realms. Doesn't mean they where present in the Faerun.
- Bar
PS - Not that its terribly relavent for this discussion. Dragonborn and Teiflings would be nice additions to add the 4e flavor to things... Eladrin too.
No you misunderstand. bad in that they have an advantage having a primary and secondary skill in a class while other species do not. Kinda a mute point since according to Hythian phb 3 adds more options for +2 stat ability for species which did not get such an advantage in phb 1.
Moot... the phrase is moot point.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moot_point
Sorry to be picky about that. Common misconception, no insult meant.
- Bar
Both may apply to my sentence.
The earliest example of Mute point is from John Hutchinson's Philosophical and Theological Works, 1749.
Heh, well if you understand the concept of mootness, I can be mute about it.
:P
Carry on then!
- Bar
It was errata for PHB1/2 that came out after PHB3 when they switched the racial bonus format over to one fixed +2 stat and two other stats you chose between for the +2.
The MM races are still the fixed +2 on two without the option, but I can't imagine that that MM races are very high on the to-do list versus all of the in-canon and out-of-canon PHB races for FR.
(Need to see if I can't somehow manage to fit in even more 2 or 3 letter acronyms in these posts to make them even more cryptic...)
Hey look at humans they have an advantage in any class they choose, and players will choose them because it is advantageous. Just like picking a half-orc for a fighter or tiefling for a warlock. If an advantage is available some players will take it, and those of us who play the game from a role-playing standard tend to call them power gamers (okay doesn't exactly fit). There is no reason some of those races you mentioned to not be allowed just because they fit one class exceptionally well. There will be players who chose to use that race in the non-standard way. Like a minotaur cleric or a gnome barbarian.
I don't quite follow you here a human only gets one +2. While he can pick where it goes all classes have a primary and secondary ability while some have tertiary ability's.
Of course some folks will use a race in a non-standard race i plan to have a half elf fighter. But i bet ya your keg of ale that more will pick a race that has an advantage over any other race in a particular class. You can see this in any mmo on the market which has such a distinction.
Human
Dwarf
Elf
Halfling
etc.
But that's just the old school player in me going back as far as 2E. I appreciate that people want to be all unique and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>... half fire elemental, half hill giant, half chromatic dragon, half drow, half planar demon, ... you get the picture.
My favorite characters were plain jane races/classes who became heroic through adventures and deeds rather than some wild fanciful birth or birthright.
Hell.... my absolute favorite is/was a rather innocuous human. A fighter/bard who specialized in mounted combat. He worked his way up through the ranks only to be killed in action leading the defenders of a mountain pass against a large band of marauding orcs. A simple character concept, mundane career choice (soldier) iconic race struggle (human settlements resisting orc raids) and yet it's still one of my favorite D&D memories/campaigns.
I know the world is changed, monstrous races are more prevalent, etc. etc.
I also know that Cryptic favors choice.
I'm sure I'll see so many Drizzt clones it'll make my eyes bleed.
But, I'd really just prefer to see the basic race/class choices.
Humans also get a bonus feat, a bonus trained skill and a bonus to their non-AC defenses, all of which are often far more useful then another races +2 to a secondary stat for their class. As well as a choice between another At-Will class ability or the "Heroic Effort" encounter abilty.
The stat bonuses aren't the only thing you have to look at in terms of balancing races or in what races people may choose. The other abilities like the fact that Elves have a 7 move instead of the normal 6 or the low-light or darkvision abilities all go into race balance and trying to keep them on par with one another in terms of nifty things they can do.
What I wonder is with a lot of these abilities maybe not translating well into a co-op RPG game (vision abilities, different movement rates, etc often aren't adapted well) if an effort will be made to tweak the racial descriptions / bonuses a little to make them remain balanced out in the game.
I won't take that bet, because I agree that more players then not will choose a race that gives them an advantage. Of course as Hythian mentioned humans have other traits that make them advantageous. Even if players choose races that give them an advantage in their class let's hope they give those characters some flavor. Dwarves bonuses are useful for clerics, I won't deny that. But my first D&D character was a Dwarven Cleric of Moradin, and he was one of my favorite characters.
That is an interesting take on it. Racial demographic balance is always tricky. We don't use a lot of NPCs so the population of our PW is all PCs. Lots of Teifers and drow with few humans are hard to explain in most backgrounds.
A mechanism to make humans more the rule would be interesting, but I bet controversial.
- Bar