That is an interesting take on it. Racial demographic balance is always tricky. We don't use a lot of NPCs so the population of our PW is all PCs. Lots of Teifers and drow with few humans are hard to explain in most backgrounds.
A mechanism to make humans more the rule would be interesting, but I bet controversial.
- Bar
Even so Humans are still the most popular race to play(seconded by elves). Even in STO with its plethora of alien races you still see primarily Humans(which is a good thing because seeing a bunch of Packleds would cause me to go genocidal). I do not think it will be to much of a problem(hopefully otherwise some type of pest control will be needed )
Well, I would like to see a game where other fantasy race is dominating. I'm quite tired of human domination accompanied by almost enslaved or very small population of other races. I would have nothing against Neverwinter dominated by elves or gnomes :P
Well, I would like to see a game where other fantasy race is dominating. I'm quite tired of human domination accompanied by almost enslaved or very small population of other races. I would have nothing against Neverwinter dominated by elves or gnomes :P
I could not care less anyway, but most people want to play human simply because that is what they relate too.
Well, I would like to see a game where other fantasy race is dominating. I'm quite tired of human domination accompanied by almost enslaved or very small population of other races. I would have nothing against Neverwinter dominated by elves or gnomes :P
- Other than the fact that Neverwinter (the city) isn't supposed to be a place populated only by elves or gnomes. And if it were, it would defeat the entire purpose of playing in a specific setting, like the FR, in a specific place, like Neverwinter.
I'm not a lore fanatic, but I do agree with what has been said, that if nwo is going to be half drows and half tieflings, it will be somewhat hard to keep the RP immersion, at least for me.
Solutions?
1) Restricted races - a possibility, though restrictions will always lead to wailing and moaning
2) Drawbacks. Give the popular nonhuman races some drawbacks, either technically (like drows and sunlight), or RP-wise. The latter depends on a RP oriented population, though, that doesn't just befriend every drow and her sister because they swear they are really good and friendly.
And with lots of humans the immersion is going to be... ? How about drow cities in the underdark? Populated mainly by drow, or some city in the Outer Planes filled with devils? Or elven Evermeet? I'd say the immersion will be there regardless of what race players will choose most often. And the city will be populated by NPC, probably mostly human.
And Neverwinter is being rebuild, offers quite a lot of choices, plus there is possible migration of many races seeking a chance to get some place to live.
1) no race restrictions - we could go with class restrictions as well in that case since druids or wizards aren't that many.
2) then humans should have drawbacks as well. Anything more than story connected drawbacks should not be included.
How about drow cities in the underdark? Populated mainly by drow, or some city in the Outer Planes filled with devils? Or elven Evermeet?
The devs kind of explicitly said that the game is going to take place in and around Neverwinter city, so while your ideas are valid, it just isn't going to happen in this game.
The rest of your post is just proof that some people only want the exotic half celestial/quarter demon races, that someone else mentioned in a post in this thread.
A true RP'er will find elaborate personalities and traits in even the most generic race/class. That isn't supposed to be as consescending as it may sound, however, it is a true statement.
I agree that Neverwinter is a human city, therefor it isn't all that strange it would be dominated by humans.
Perhaps have the more exotic races be unlockable? You must reach level 10 before getting to choose a Drow and so on.
And for non-human dominated areas, nothing is stopping you from say creating a halfling quarter as a module In theory, given how little we know of the Foundry *pokes Cryptic*
The devs kind of explicitly said that the game is going to take place in and around Neverwinter city, so while your ideas are valid, it just isn't going to happen in this game.
The rest of your post is just proof that some people only want the exotic half celestial/quarter demon races, that someone else mentioned in a post in this thread.
A true RP'er will find elaborate personalities and traits in even the most generic race/class. That isn't supposed to be as consescending as it may sound, however, it is a true statement.
I wasn't pointing that Neverwinter is not a human city, although to be honest is was a human city. Right now? Not sure, but since Drizzt was asked to help (the novel) with rebuilding the city and it will be the biggest city in Faerun in some time, I kind of doubt it.
My point was: immersion doesn't require humans, and does not depend on the race, but on the suspension of belief, and some other features like credibility. I see Neverwinter as a cosmopolitan, multi-cultural, multi-racial city.
As for "true" RP, it's true. But at the same time, a true RP will make a rare or unusual race as elaborate as classical races, or even more. So why prevent them from doing so? When they need to use the same, old, exhausted in many ways template from which they will bring something interesting? Didn't you complain, or agreed, or thought, about Drow rangers wielding dual swords flooding the game? According to "true RP" logic such characters can be very interesting and inspiring, if not original, just like humans, elves or dwarves can be.
I don't see the correlation between my post and half-celestials or something. People want exotic, true - that's why they play fantasy games, which are exotic when compared to our reality, but my point was that Neverwinter has lots of possibilities, including diverse racial minorities or majorities.
I haven't read novels and my knowledge about what happens around Neverwinter is quite limited. But I remember reading (WoTC's?) that Neverwinter was being rebuilt by humans, dwarves and elves. That doesn't mean there cannot be other races but seems to indicate that the main/big populations are those three.
From a RP point of view, humans are easy to relate and require no special knowledge to play them (basically you can be yourself in fantasy setting). Other races may create artificial barriers like the insectoid thri-keeen, in which players not only need more info about how they usually behave but also have that appearence "problem" (ever wonder why in scifi the main human protagonists never have romances with giant intelligent female alien scarabs or how alien species tend to be very humanoid?)
And please, lets not forget that on release day most people playing won't be roleplaying. They will be trying to have fun with their toon doing quests, leveling up and getting loot. That their race is supposed to be ultrarare because of lore won't be important to most of them.
On a side note, I hope there are gnomes at release. No need to be playable, just that I can use them as NPCs.
People want exotic, true - that's why they play fantasy games, which are exotic when compared to our reality (...)
The core of the issue here is that if an abundance of exotic (and supposedly extremely rare) races are released without some kind of either 1) restriction or 2) drawback, then we'll have a world flooded with those races, as many people go for the exotic and the extravagant.
What will happen then? It stops being exotic/special/rare. "Oh, yet another tiefling, well how do you do.", "Ah, here's that half-dragon brother of the celestial I was talking about."
People play fantasy 'cause it's something else than every day life, yes, but once everyone and his brother is playing something extravagant and unique - it stops being unique and merely becomes mundane.
One only has to check the various nwn2 servers with no restrictions on races. They're flooding with aasimars, drows and tieflings. And yes, that will ruin much of the immersion for me, as well as for many others, judging from the general sentiments of the people responding in this post.
Forgotten Realms is quite different in 4th Edition. Planetouched rule over many cities/states, Dragonborn have kingdoms, Nethril has returned from Shadow, etc. The players are allowed (and rightfully so) to make a character based on many of these races.
The Forgotten Realms has always allowed for the players to play more 'exotic' races. planetouched, drow, etc. have long been available as player races in the Realms.
The key thing to remember is these races are not extravagant nor unique anymore.
I know. Get over it. This isn't the Tolkien wannabe games of the past where you could only be human, elf, dwarf, half-elf, half-orc, gnome or halfling. Tired of that old hat stuff. I like how 4th ed does races. They aren't nearly as cheesy or overpowered as some of the 3.5 stuff and best of all NO MORE MUCKING ABOUT WITH ECL.
Whoppity do if some of the racial abilities mimic class ones. They usually aren't as good and certainly don't scale.
The core of the issue here is that if an abundance of exotic (and supposedly extremely rare) races are released without some kind of either 1) restriction or 2) drawback, then we'll have a world flooded with those races, as many people go for the exotic and the extravagant.
What will happen then? It stops being exotic/special/rare. "Oh, yet another tiefling, well how do you do.", "Ah, here's that half-dragon brother of the celestial I was talking about."
People play fantasy 'cause it's something else than every day life, yes, but once everyone and his brother is playing something extravagant and unique - it stops being unique and merely becomes mundane.
One only has to check the various nwn2 servers with no restrictions on races. They're flooding with aasimars, drows and tieflings. And yes, that will ruin much of the immersion for me, as well as for many others, judging from the general sentiments of the people responding in this post.
Tiefling aren't extremely rare, nor are drow and assimar don't exist anymore.
Tiefling aren't extremely rare, nor are drow and assimar don't exist anymore.
Aasimar still exist, they are just re-named back to Deva again and are in PHB2.
From the "Forgotten Realms Players Guide" for 4E:
"Just as the Mulan deities could only send avatars into Faerun, the angelic servants who accompanied them also had to incoporate themselves in mortal flesh, and became the race of devas - or aasimars, as they were known in Mulhorandi."
Aasimar still exist, they are just re-named back to Deva again and are in PHB2.
Not really. Deva are very different. Aasimar don't have past lives for one. Renaming them after the fact doesn't make them the aasimars of previous editions. That is also the FR version of them. The PHB 2 makes no mention of them being angelic or having been called aasimars.
Tiefling aren't extremely rare, nor are drow and assimar don't exist anymore.
Being argumentative and pedantic doesn't really change anything.
I take it you're the kind of person I mention in my post, who wants access to all the, in my opinion, superfluous player races, and that's fine.
I would rather not see them all implemented, and that's where we disagree.
And I take it you want to force people to play the blander ones? Sorry but many of the new races are not superflous anymore. That would also depend on the setting. A game set in the underdark would naturally have drow. Drow are not rare population wise. Tiefling are rare but extremely rare? Not really. Especially in 4th ed Faerun. You have a problem with it don't play one. Problem solved. I'll be just fine playing my Tiefling rogue, assuming we can pick race, class and gender.
Not really. Deva are very different. Aasimar don't have past lives for one. Renaming them after the fact doesn't make them the aasimars of previous editions. That is also the FR version of them. The PHB 2 makes no mention of them being angelic or having been called aasimars.
While true that they are not called Aasimars, them being angelic in the past is somehow hinted at when it's mentioned more than once that they were immortals in the Astral Sea serving the Gods. Of course, not mentioning Angels directly leaves it open to interpretation, but origins can change based on setting anyway (like Dragonborn's origin in default D&D and FR, if my memory serves me).
While true that they are not called Aasimars, them being angelic in the past is somehow hinted at when it's mentioned more than once that they were immortals in the Astral Sea serving the Gods. Of course, not mentioning Angels directly leaves it open to interpretation, but origins can change based on setting anyway (like Dragonborn's origin in default D&D and FR, if my memory serves me).
Problem is they changed Angels too as just champions of gods and not champions of good so if Deva are still Aasimars and Aasimars/Deva used to be angles they aren't what they used to be in previous editions anymore.
There is one major difference between Aasimar and Deva, which makes the 4 ed Aasimar convertion to Deva almost impossible in my opinion: Deva can't have children.
Technically, Deva are somehow supposed to be the Aaasimar of 4E but they aren't. Aasimar were "half-angel", showing traces of their divine ancestor in their bodies. Tielfing were the same but with devils/demons. The 4E Tiefling are more close to what the Tiefling traditionally was but the Deva... well, totally reimagined for 4E if you accept that they are the 4E Aasimar. If you don't, Deva are not Aasimar but in FR they were called that way in one of the realms.
There is one major difference between Aasimar and Deva, which makes the 4 ed Aasimar convertion to Deva almost impossible in my opinion: Deva can't have children.
Somehow, I am reminded of the Deep Space 9 episode "Trials and Tribble-ations" when Worf was asked about the Klingons in the episode and their absence of their cranial plate on their forehead.
Worf's response... "It is a... long story. We do not discuss it with outsiders."
Anyhow... Aasimar/Deva *could* have undergone a transformation which rendered them incapable of children (similar to the 3E Muls (half-dwarves) in Dark Sun being unable to mate), or Deva could be some kind of abnormality within the race.
That's the beauty of D&D, you get to regularly suspend and/or replace any parallels with reality.
Technically, Deva are somehow supposed to be the Aaasimar of 4E but they aren't. Aasimar were "half-angel", showing traces of their divine ancestor in their bodies. Tielfing were the same but with devils/demons. The 4E Tiefling are more close to what the Tiefling traditionally was but the Deva... well, totally reimagined for 4E if you accept that they are the 4E Aasimar. If you don't, Deva are not Aasimar but in FR they were called that way in one of the realms.
I agree with you, they aren't the Aasimar of old at all. They are something else, very reimagined for 4th ed. Considering I also read the notes on why they changed some of the races they felt Aasimar weren't cool enough the way they were before so they changed them up a bit. So they really aren't Aasimar from a previous edition standpoint.
There is one major difference between Aasimar and Deva, which makes the 4 ed Aasimar convertion to Deva almost impossible in my opinion: Deva can't have children.
Huh. Interesting to know. Where was that tidbit revealed?
Devas do not have children. When a deva dies, his
or her spirit is reincarnated in a new, adult body that
appears in some sacred place, such as a mountain
peak, a riverbank, or a desert oasis. The new deva
retains enough memory of past lives to speak and
understand multiple languages and offer the proper
prayers and sacrifices to the gods of good.
And in Player's Guide to Faerun 4 ed:
Like their masters, devas accepted the fate
of perpetual reincarnation. For almost four thousand
years, each deva has been incarnated again and again
in the world of Toril.
It's too inconsistent. Devas cannot be called Aasimar, WotC could just make them a new race instead...
incapable of children (similar to the 3E Muls (half-dwarves) in Dark Sun being unable to mate)
I know of Muls not being able to have children back in 2E (and mentioned in the novels) but what about 4E? I bought the Dark Sun manuals this week and haven't been able to read them completely but in the Mul section it's not mentioned that they cannot have children. Not that it matters for this game but I like Dark Sun. A pity that Neverwinter won't offer proper art assests for it.
Deva topic, I suppose that WoTC considered that creating a story for the Aasimar similar to that of the Tieflings (with Bael Turath and all that), would have been ridiculous and opted for the reincarnating Devas. Funny thing is that shifters in 4E are what Aasimar and Tieflings were in 2E: human descendants of a mix with a supernatural creature, that had left their bodies marked.
(I like the Devas anyways. Hope to see them as playable)
Comments
Even so Humans are still the most popular race to play(seconded by elves). Even in STO with its plethora of alien races you still see primarily Humans(which is a good thing because seeing a bunch of Packleds would cause me to go genocidal). I do not think it will be to much of a problem(hopefully otherwise some type of pest control will be needed
I could not care less anyway, but most people want to play human simply because that is what they relate too.
- Other than the fact that Neverwinter (the city) isn't supposed to be a place populated only by elves or gnomes. And if it were, it would defeat the entire purpose of playing in a specific setting, like the FR, in a specific place, like Neverwinter.
I'm not a lore fanatic, but I do agree with what has been said, that if nwo is going to be half drows and half tieflings, it will be somewhat hard to keep the RP immersion, at least for me.
Solutions?
1) Restricted races - a possibility, though restrictions will always lead to wailing and moaning
2) Drawbacks. Give the popular nonhuman races some drawbacks, either technically (like drows and sunlight), or RP-wise. The latter depends on a RP oriented population, though, that doesn't just befriend every drow and her sister because they swear they are really good and friendly.
And Neverwinter is being rebuild, offers quite a lot of choices, plus there is possible migration of many races seeking a chance to get some place to live.
1) no race restrictions - we could go with class restrictions as well in that case since druids or wizards aren't that many.
2) then humans should have drawbacks as well. Anything more than story connected drawbacks should not be included.
The devs kind of explicitly said that the game is going to take place in and around Neverwinter city, so while your ideas are valid, it just isn't going to happen in this game.
The rest of your post is just proof that some people only want the exotic half celestial/quarter demon races, that someone else mentioned in a post in this thread.
A true RP'er will find elaborate personalities and traits in even the most generic race/class. That isn't supposed to be as consescending as it may sound, however, it is a true statement.
Perhaps have the more exotic races be unlockable? You must reach level 10 before getting to choose a Drow and so on.
And for non-human dominated areas, nothing is stopping you from say creating a halfling quarter as a module
I wasn't pointing that Neverwinter is not a human city, although to be honest is was a human city. Right now? Not sure, but since Drizzt was asked to help (the novel) with rebuilding the city and it will be the biggest city in Faerun in some time, I kind of doubt it.
My point was: immersion doesn't require humans, and does not depend on the race, but on the suspension of belief, and some other features like credibility. I see Neverwinter as a cosmopolitan, multi-cultural, multi-racial city.
As for "true" RP, it's true. But at the same time, a true RP will make a rare or unusual race as elaborate as classical races, or even more. So why prevent them from doing so? When they need to use the same, old, exhausted in many ways template from which they will bring something interesting? Didn't you complain, or agreed, or thought, about Drow rangers wielding dual swords flooding the game? According to "true RP" logic such characters can be very interesting and inspiring, if not original, just like humans, elves or dwarves can be.
I don't see the correlation between my post and half-celestials or something. People want exotic, true - that's why they play fantasy games, which are exotic when compared to our reality, but my point was that Neverwinter has lots of possibilities, including diverse racial minorities or majorities.
From a RP point of view, humans are easy to relate and require no special knowledge to play them (basically you can be yourself in fantasy setting). Other races may create artificial barriers like the insectoid thri-keeen, in which players not only need more info about how they usually behave but also have that appearence "problem" (ever wonder why in scifi the main human protagonists never have romances with giant intelligent female alien scarabs or how alien species tend to be very humanoid?)
And please, lets not forget that on release day most people playing won't be roleplaying. They will be trying to have fun with their toon doing quests, leveling up and getting loot. That their race is supposed to be ultrarare because of lore won't be important to most of them.
On a side note, I hope there are gnomes at release. No need to be playable, just that I can use them as NPCs.
The core of the issue here is that if an abundance of exotic (and supposedly extremely rare) races are released without some kind of either 1) restriction or 2) drawback, then we'll have a world flooded with those races, as many people go for the exotic and the extravagant.
What will happen then? It stops being exotic/special/rare. "Oh, yet another tiefling, well how do you do.", "Ah, here's that half-dragon brother of the celestial I was talking about."
People play fantasy 'cause it's something else than every day life, yes, but once everyone and his brother is playing something extravagant and unique - it stops being unique and merely becomes mundane.
One only has to check the various nwn2 servers with no restrictions on races. They're flooding with aasimars, drows and tieflings. And yes, that will ruin much of the immersion for me, as well as for many others, judging from the general sentiments of the people responding in this post.
The Forgotten Realms has always allowed for the players to play more 'exotic' races. planetouched, drow, etc. have long been available as player races in the Realms.
The key thing to remember is these races are not extravagant nor unique anymore.
Whoppity do if some of the racial abilities mimic class ones. They usually aren't as good and certainly don't scale.
Tiefling aren't extremely rare, nor are drow and assimar don't exist anymore.
Aasimar still exist, they are just re-named back to Deva again and are in PHB2.
From the "Forgotten Realms Players Guide" for 4E:
"Just as the Mulan deities could only send avatars into Faerun, the angelic servants who accompanied them also had to incoporate themselves in mortal flesh, and became the race of devas - or aasimars, as they were known in Mulhorandi."
Not really. Deva are very different. Aasimar don't have past lives for one. Renaming them after the fact doesn't make them the aasimars of previous editions. That is also the FR version of them. The PHB 2 makes no mention of them being angelic or having been called aasimars.
Being argumentative and pedantic doesn't really change anything.
I take it you're the kind of person I mention in my post, who wants access to all the, in my opinion, superfluous player races, and that's fine.
I would rather not see them all implemented, and that's where we disagree.
Problem is they changed Angels too as just champions of gods and not champions of good so if Deva are still Aasimars and Aasimars/Deva used to be angles they aren't what they used to be in previous editions anymore.
Worf's response... "It is a... long story. We do not discuss it with outsiders."
Anyhow... Aasimar/Deva *could* have undergone a transformation which rendered them incapable of children (similar to the 3E Muls (half-dwarves) in Dark Sun being unable to mate), or Deva could be some kind of abnormality within the race.
That's the beauty of D&D, you get to regularly suspend and/or replace any parallels with reality.
I agree with you, they aren't the Aasimar of old at all. They are something else, very reimagined for 4th ed. Considering I also read the notes on why they changed some of the races they felt Aasimar weren't cool enough the way they were before so they changed them up a bit. So they really aren't Aasimar from a previous edition standpoint.
Huh. Interesting to know. Where was that tidbit revealed?
And in Player's Guide to Faerun 4 ed:
It's too inconsistent. Devas cannot be called Aasimar, WotC could just make them a new race instead...
Deva topic, I suppose that WoTC considered that creating a story for the Aasimar similar to that of the Tieflings (with Bael Turath and all that), would have been ridiculous and opted for the reincarnating Devas. Funny thing is that shifters in 4E are what Aasimar and Tieflings were in 2E: human descendants of a mix with a supernatural creature, that had left their bodies marked.
(I like the Devas anyways. Hope to see them as playable)