Crafting is never fun. I have yet to find a game where I enjoyed crafting. However, there are people that do enjoy it and it can be a source of revenue for them. I can earn money by selling materials I gather to the crafters. The crafters in turn make money from adventurers who buy their finished goods.
The problem with crafting in games where items don't decay and break is that once an item is bought, it never goes away. Once someone has bought an item from you, they will never have to buy it from you again. There's no repeat business. It's just not a healthy style of economy.
The problem with crafting in general is that if it's relevant, it's also necessary. If you eventually need a craftable, you either need to pick up the tradeskill, or you need to buy from someone else. Ultimately, as you sort of pointed out, the only people who enjoy it are the people who like making fake money.
If that's not what the game's about, why bother at all?
That said, I wouldn't mind a crafting system that you can largely ignore (like CoH) or that you can build a business with (like SWG or EvE), or where the training and manufacturing happens behind the scenes (like EvE). But I fear that calls for a crafting system, just for the sake of having one, will result in a half-arsed WoW-like model that won't be satisfactory for anyone.
Sorry if I went off on a tangent, but this thread is kinda random anyway...
This is not an MMO, we do not need crafting. That and Dungeons and Dragons to me has always been about being a hero. While craftsmen can become legendary in their own right, they aren't heroic. The archmage who sits in his tower studying the lore needed to understand enchanting items is very different from the conjurer who sets out to stop the red dragon from ravaging the country side.
Besides, to correctly implement a working player-driven economy, you need to do what Eve Online did: Hire an honest-to-goodness economist. Otherwise you will fail :P
Actually, I don't want a crafting system in NWO. D&D isn't about crafting, it's about adventuring. If there is crafting, it should be quest based epic magic items that take a long time to "craft". I was just discussing the merits and disadvantages of in-game crafting economies.
The only craft related stuff I could see is the traditional of players creating their own magic stuff. Like the Wizard creating his own wands or enchanting arms/armours, etc.
The wizard could buy wands in the shop or make them by himself if he devotes the time and efforts. The fighter could be happy with whatever best sword he can loot or buy from the shop, or maybe ask for a custom one to the wizard of his party.
3E had that simple system of points for the different magical abilities that could be used for enchantment. Bye bye Vorpal Katanas of Speed +5!!!
As stated you do not understand.. So its obvious you did not try anything at all I am talking about. All items created have "hidden" sockets by default.
These sockets are for use in modules for developing players to offer "player loot" for its adventurers... The module keeps track of who has earned what and puts it in that appropriate slot and they get the bonus. The module then dictates and controls special effects should be toggled on and you visually see the effects when in that module. You as an adventuring player have to do nothing but obtain the socket item.
You will know you earned that loot in the dungeon or whatever, and lets say the loot was +2 dmg to undead slashing sword.. if that person was yeilding a sword with slash damage, they would get the bonus, and that bonus can be seen in the character page with a green +2 next to it when looked at. Or it can add a green acid dripping glow effect and add acid damage... It is nothing more than a "FLAG" in game if you acquired this UUID loot drop
You dont have 150 different swords..
So what happens to the +2 dmg to undead slashing sword when you leave the instance that you got it from?
As stated you do not understand.. So its obvious you did not try anything at all I am talking about. All items created have "hidden" sockets by default.
These sockets are for use in modules for developing players to offer "player loot" for its adventurers... The module keeps track of who has earned what and puts it in that appropriate slot and they get the bonus. The module then dictates and controls special effects should be toggled on and you visually see the effects when in that module. You as an adventuring player have to do nothing but obtain the socket item.
You will know you earned that loot in the dungeon or whatever, and lets say the loot was +2 dmg to undead slashing sword.. if that person was yeilding a sword with slash damage, they would get the bonus, and that bonus can be seen in the character page with a green +2 next to it when looked at. Or it can add a green acid dripping glow effect and add acid damage... It is nothing more than a "FLAG" in game if you acquired this UUID loot drop
You dont have 150 different swords..
You continue to confuse disagreement with misunderstanding.
And so the only time I have access to that undead sword +2 is when I go into that module... And how do I keep track of that as a player? "Hey, I want to go use that +2 undead sword I spent 5 hours to get... What module was that in?"
Now, parlay this to 5 modules, 10 modules, 50 modules, 100 modules, with weapons, armor, rings, other equipment. It is a nightmare.
You don't get it. The players want to know what gear they have. They don't want all of this token garbage residing on various modules that they have to hunt and peck around for. They want the gear they earned to work for them when they need it, not when they happen to stumble upon a module that they have been in before.
It's not a good idea. It's a bad idea. It doesn't work on small clusters of 5 servers let alone what the scope of Neverwinter could offer.
You never get to use it again until you re-do that same instance.
Exactly. So how do you know that in quest XYZ you have a +2 dmg to undead slashing sword waiting for you when you come back? I think that is what Jharii was saying.
Exactly. So how do you know that in quest XYZ you have a +2 dmg to undead slashing sword waiting for you when you come back? I think that is what Jharii was saying.
Exactly, as well as... Why do I need to go repeat the same instance to be able to use the weapon that I already earned from that instance? What happens when I level beyond that instance?
My +2 undead sword is essentially completely useless.
Exactly, as well as... Why do I need to go repeat the same instance to be able to use the weapon that I already earned from that instance? What happens when I level beyond that instance?
My +2 undead sword is essentially completely useless.
Another point in all of this is that Cryptic is probably going to want to control items in the game. Otherwise they lose control over the in-game economy.
Crafting is never fun. I have yet to find a game where I enjoyed crafting. However, there are people that do enjoy it and it can be a source of revenue for them. I can earn money by selling materials I gather to the crafters. The crafters in turn make money from adventurers who buy their finished goods.
The problem with crafting in games where items don't decay and break is that once an item is bought, it never goes away. Once someone has bought an item from you, they will never have to buy it from you again. There's no repeat business. It's just not a healthy style of economy.
I wouldn't say that, John. Look how things are done in real world. A person buys a TV for few years and the economy keeps going. You forget that when you lvl up you need better equipment. You can then sell old equipment to buy new one. It's quite a good economy model.
I never bought or met anybody who would buy new items because his sword was damaged. Just go to the blacksmith and repair it, that's all. That's how it works in WoW and many other games.
Weapons, armor, not-consumables aren't bought because of the damaged items you already have, but because they have better stats. It would be hell annoying to buy an item for 10 000 gold just to let it be destroyed from usage and then you need to collect money again. Plus: in DnD magical items are very, very, very hard to damage or destroy. They don't get damaged simply because you use them. Check the rules.
And here again little summary, so that people don't forget what's this topic is about:
User Library - pretty simple, yet so much fun Let players... write their own stories A book or a scroll can be used to type some story, like an account from a battle or quest, or poetry... or a hint that can lead a player to a quest you made ;-) All placed in a the Public Library of Neverwinter ;]
I wouldn't say that, John. Look how things are done in real world. A person buys a TV for few years and the economy keeps going. You forget that when you lvl up you need better equipment. You can then sell old equipment to buy new one. It's quite a good economy model.
No, it's not. Cause the equipment just goes to an npc vendor and creates more wealth instead of maintaining a healthy supply of goods and coin.
I never bought or met anybody who would buy new items because his sword was damaged. Just go to the blacksmith and repair it, that's all. That's how it works in WoW and many other games.
I wasn't talking about WoW or other mmo HAMSTER economies. I was talking about a true player driven economy like Eve Online. When your ship blows up... poof. It's gone. You don't get to just repair it and bring it back. It's gone. Someone else has to mine the ore, process the ore, produce the components, use the components to produce the base items for the ship, and then produce the ship itself and put it on the market. Then you get to go buy it!
Weapons, armor, not-consumables aren't bought because of the damaged items you already have, but because they have better stats. It would be hell annoying to buy an item for 10 000 gold just to let it be destroyed from usage and then you need to collect money again. Plus: in DnD magical items are very, very, very hard to damage or destroy. They don't get damaged simply because you use them. Check the rules.
Hence why I said D&D doesn't need a crafting system. It was just idle discussion about the best type of crafting system and what kind of game mechanics and economy best support a robust and healthy market for crafted goods.
Hence why I said D&D doesn't need a crafting system. It was just idle discussion about the best type of crafting system and what kind of game mechanics and economy best support a robust and healthy market for crafted goods.
But's the same in WoW. Items cannot be destroyed, they can be only damaged and for a small fee repaired. And crafting works well there. Still, I like crafting not for market or economy, but because I can make something awesome that normally I wouldn't get easily or at all from loot.
But's the same in WoW. Items cannot be destroyed, they can be only damaged and for a small fee repaired. And crafting works well there. Still, I like crafting not for market or economy, but because I can make something awesome that normally I wouldn't get easily or at all from loot.
No it doesn't. It's a waste of time. Unless you have tons of gold to spend on it and a lot of time to promote your tradeskill, you're not ever going to break even. There's also the problem of mudflation (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/MudflationREAD THIS LINK. BE EDUCATED!) which runs RAMPANT in WoW. The tradeskill economy in WoW is heavily slanted towards end game levels. Aka lvl 70 or higher. No one wants to spend money on the +1 strength enchantment to gloves at lvl 10. They want the +15 strength bonus that you can't do.
There are people that PAY to enchant other peoples items just to try and level up their enchanting skill. What kind of tradeskill idiocy requires you to pay someone to give them a service? It's dumb and HAMSTER.
No it doesn't. It's a waste of time. Unless you have tons of gold to spend on it and a lot of time to promote your tradeskill, you're not ever going to break even. There's also the problem of mudflation (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/MudflationREAD THIS LINK. BE EDUCATED!) which runs RAMPANT in WoW. The tradeskill economy in WoW is heavily slanted towards end game levels. Aka lvl 70 or higher. No one wants to spend money on the +1 strength enchantment to gloves at lvl 10. They want the +15 strength bonus that you can't do.
There are people that PAY to enchant other peoples items just to try and level up their enchanting skill. What kind of tradeskill idiocy requires you to pay someone to give them a service? It's dumb and HAMSTER.
That just doesn't respond to what I wrote about crafting for oneself. Please, add "in my opinion it's a waste of time". Cuz it's only your opinion. Ehh... you know what, I feel like it's pointless to talk to you.
Let's end this topic. Let's move to some other ideas from this forum I posted up. This is not "crafting value topic".
That just doesn't respond to what I wrote about crafting for oneself. Please, add "in my opinion it's a waste of time". Cuz it's only your opinion. Ehh... you know what, I feel like it's pointless to talk to you.
Let's end this topic. Let's move to some other ideas from this forum I posted up. This is not "crafting value topic".
What is funny is that he is the one that introduced it into the discussion to counter my point about the wear mechanic being an unnecessary addition to Neverwinter.
I do like the crafting system in Lord of the Rings Online though, where it makes sense to craft as the crafted items are the best items in the game except for very high end boss loot and very hard to achieve faction items. Some critical success crafted items are good enough to replace lots of things even at end levels.
I'm in agreement of crafting being unnecessary in NWO though. D&D has never been a crafting centric game and I would rather them focus on good content and additional items in the foundry than a crafting system.
I wouldn't say that, John. Look how things are done in real world. A person buys a TV for few years and the economy keeps going. You forget that when you lvl up you need better equipment. You can then sell old equipment to buy new one. It's quite a good economy model.
I never bought or met anybody who would buy new items because his sword was damaged. Just go to the blacksmith and repair it, that's all. That's how it works in WoW and many other games.
Weapons, armor, not-consumables aren't bought because of the damaged items you already have, but because they have better stats. It would be hell annoying to buy an item for 10 000 gold just to let it be destroyed from usage and then you need to collect money again. Plus: in DnD magical items are very, very, very hard to damage or destroy. They don't get damaged simply because you use them. Check the rules.
And here again little summary, so that people don't forget what's this topic is about:
User Library - pretty simple, yet so much fun Let players... write their own stories A book or a scroll can be used to type some story, like an account from a battle or quest, or poetry... or a hint that can lead a player to a quest you made ;-) All placed in a the Public Library of Neverwinter ;]
No it doesn't. It's a waste of time. Unless you have tons of gold to spend on it and a lot of time to promote your tradeskill, you're not ever going to break even. There's also the problem of mudflation (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/MudflationREAD THIS LINK. BE EDUCATED!) which runs RAMPANT in WoW. The tradeskill economy in WoW is heavily slanted towards end game levels. Aka lvl 70 or higher. No one wants to spend money on the +1 strength enchantment to gloves at lvl 10. They want the +15 strength bonus that you can't do.
There are people that PAY to enchant other peoples items just to try and level up their enchanting skill. What kind of tradeskill idiocy requires you to pay someone to give them a service? It's dumb and HAMSTER.
Ummm your Mudinflation has always been round and in any kind of online game that has currency in it and will continue to be around. That +1 enchant was a prime good enchant at release, but as games progress earlier stuff loses it value fast.
Face it... MMO economy is completely jacked and always will be jacked. Eve Online might be an exception but that economy is practically RL mechanics. DDO has no tradeskill crafting and there is horrible inflation with certain items that people sell on the AH. Their crafting in DDO is horrible though, grind grind grind is all it is.
Crafting is a highly popular feature in MMOs or OMG, it adds more things to do for players tha keeps their intrest in the game.
Also only time people pay others to enchant their item it's because 1. They don't have the mats to begin with, 2. someone gives them the mats to enchant their gear, and 3. said enchantment provides skill up that the enchanter couldn't have preformed earlier due to lack of materials. So someone paying to enchant others gear is not HAMSTER but actually sound judgement.
Eve Online is the type of crafting/industry/economical model that all mmo's should aspire to. Fortunately, Neverwinter isn't a traditional MMO and thus does not need crafting.
Eve Online is the type of crafting/industry/economical model that all mmo's should aspire to. Fortunately, Neverwinter isn't a traditional MMO and thus does not need crafting.
Say you who might just be the minority. It's up to Cryptic to decide whether Neverwinter needs crafting or not and chances are they will decided what is profitable and what the player base wants, they will adjust/deviate from 4e rules as they see fit as they have already done so with the hit roll.
I'm sure Cryptic will make an announcement about crafting when they finally start releasing detailed information about the game *drools*
You know, that Library idea I had gave an idea to another idea XD
These scrolls you could write on... it would be great for making secret messages, coded in some ways. A quest would require you to find clues about how to break the code and thus find a way to do the quest ;]
Say you who might just be the minority. It's up to Cryptic to decide whether Neverwinter needs crafting or not and chances are they will decided what is profitable and what the player base wants, they will adjust/deviate from 4e rules as they see fit as they have already done so with the hit roll.
I'm sure Cryptic will make an announcement about crafting when they finally start releasing detailed information about the game *drools*
Oh no. The economy in Eve Online is the penultimate mmo economy. It is every bit as complex as a real world economy with lines of supply, logistics, warehousing, rent, everything. Even reimbursement, taxes, and more. It is what every robust and true game economy should aspire to be. That's a fact, not an opinion.
You know, that Library idea I had gave an idea to another idea XD
These scrolls you could write on... it would be great for making secret messages, coded in some ways. A quest would require you to find clues about how to break the code and thus find a way to do the quest ;]
It would be solved once and then everyone else would google.
User Library - pretty simple, yet so much fun Let players... write their own stories A book or a scroll can be used to type some story, like an account from a battle or quest, or poetry... or a hint that can lead a player to a quest you made ;-) All placed in a the Public Library of Neverwinter ;]
I like the Library idea. It would be a nice option to launch an adventure from.
Comments
If that's not what the game's about, why bother at all?
That said, I wouldn't mind a crafting system that you can largely ignore (like CoH) or that you can build a business with (like SWG or EvE), or where the training and manufacturing happens behind the scenes (like EvE). But I fear that calls for a crafting system, just for the sake of having one, will result in a half-arsed WoW-like model that won't be satisfactory for anyone.
Sorry if I went off on a tangent, but this thread is kinda random anyway...
Besides, to correctly implement a working player-driven economy, you need to do what Eve Online did: Hire an honest-to-goodness economist. Otherwise you will fail :P
The wizard could buy wands in the shop or make them by himself if he devotes the time and efforts. The fighter could be happy with whatever best sword he can loot or buy from the shop, or maybe ask for a custom one to the wizard of his party.
3E had that simple system of points for the different magical abilities that could be used for enchantment. Bye bye Vorpal Katanas of Speed +5!!!
So what happens to the +2 dmg to undead slashing sword when you leave the instance that you got it from?
And so the only time I have access to that undead sword +2 is when I go into that module... And how do I keep track of that as a player? "Hey, I want to go use that +2 undead sword I spent 5 hours to get... What module was that in?"
Now, parlay this to 5 modules, 10 modules, 50 modules, 100 modules, with weapons, armor, rings, other equipment. It is a nightmare.
You don't get it. The players want to know what gear they have. They don't want all of this token garbage residing on various modules that they have to hunt and peck around for. They want the gear they earned to work for them when they need it, not when they happen to stumble upon a module that they have been in before.
It's not a good idea. It's a bad idea. It doesn't work on small clusters of 5 servers let alone what the scope of Neverwinter could offer.
Exactly. So how do you know that in quest XYZ you have a +2 dmg to undead slashing sword waiting for you when you come back? I think that is what Jharii was saying.
My +2 undead sword is essentially completely useless.
Another point in all of this is that Cryptic is probably going to want to control items in the game. Otherwise they lose control over the in-game economy.
I wouldn't say that, John. Look how things are done in real world. A person buys a TV for few years and the economy keeps going. You forget that when you lvl up you need better equipment. You can then sell old equipment to buy new one. It's quite a good economy model.
I never bought or met anybody who would buy new items because his sword was damaged. Just go to the blacksmith and repair it, that's all. That's how it works in WoW and many other games.
Weapons, armor, not-consumables aren't bought because of the damaged items you already have, but because they have better stats. It would be hell annoying to buy an item for 10 000 gold just to let it be destroyed from usage and then you need to collect money again. Plus: in DnD magical items are very, very, very hard to damage or destroy. They don't get damaged simply because you use them. Check the rules.
And here again little summary, so that people don't forget what's this topic is about:
Guilds
-customized items
-Factions
-Ability scores influencing dialogues
-Z axis kind of confirmed by devs
-Printable journal, a story-like journal
-Non-pierce-able Darkness without source of light
-Mini-game of the drow Sava
-Chat-based rituals (type a word sequence to cast a ritual)
-Weapon modes - one weapon can deal different type of damage
-Language system
-Character's aging with choices and levels
-Digging and burrowing
-Persistent content in the game-world as rewards for players
-Reputation system
-Guild/Faction based feats and abilities (reminds me kind of Planescape)
-Semi-random quests, Randomness
-Scripting
-Different movement modes, Intelligent weapons
Recording voice for user quests, historical feats, Badges of Valor(achievement items required for certain quests)
Item sockets that work in user generated content
More scripting :P
Mounts, Faction ranks
Maps as items that can be shared
Overland map of Faerun
Items getting damaged and need repair
No binding items
And here a new idea from me:
User Library - pretty simple, yet so much fun
I wasn't talking about WoW or other mmo HAMSTER economies. I was talking about a true player driven economy like Eve Online. When your ship blows up... poof. It's gone. You don't get to just repair it and bring it back. It's gone. Someone else has to mine the ore, process the ore, produce the components, use the components to produce the base items for the ship, and then produce the ship itself and put it on the market. Then you get to go buy it!
Hence why I said D&D doesn't need a crafting system. It was just idle discussion about the best type of crafting system and what kind of game mechanics and economy best support a robust and healthy market for crafted goods.
But's the same in WoW. Items cannot be destroyed, they can be only damaged and for a small fee repaired. And crafting works well there. Still, I like crafting not for market or economy, but because I can make something awesome that normally I wouldn't get easily or at all from loot.
And what about my Library idea?
No it doesn't. It's a waste of time. Unless you have tons of gold to spend on it and a lot of time to promote your tradeskill, you're not ever going to break even. There's also the problem of mudflation (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Mudflation READ THIS LINK. BE EDUCATED!) which runs RAMPANT in WoW. The tradeskill economy in WoW is heavily slanted towards end game levels. Aka lvl 70 or higher. No one wants to spend money on the +1 strength enchantment to gloves at lvl 10. They want the +15 strength bonus that you can't do.
There are people that PAY to enchant other peoples items just to try and level up their enchanting skill. What kind of tradeskill idiocy requires you to pay someone to give them a service? It's dumb and HAMSTER.
That just doesn't respond to what I wrote about crafting for oneself. Please, add "in my opinion it's a waste of time". Cuz it's only your opinion. Ehh... you know what, I feel like it's pointless to talk to you.
Let's end this topic. Let's move to some other ideas from this forum I posted up. This is not "crafting value topic".
I'm in agreement of crafting being unnecessary in NWO though. D&D has never been a crafting centric game and I would rather them focus on good content and additional items in the foundry than a crafting system.
Can we please drop crafting and go back to ideas? Discuss crafting here: http://forums.playneverwinter.com/showthread.php?t=3656
Ummm your Mudinflation has always been round and in any kind of online game that has currency in it and will continue to be around. That +1 enchant was a prime good enchant at release, but as games progress earlier stuff loses it value fast.
Face it... MMO economy is completely jacked and always will be jacked. Eve Online might be an exception but that economy is practically RL mechanics. DDO has no tradeskill crafting and there is horrible inflation with certain items that people sell on the AH. Their crafting in DDO is horrible though, grind grind grind is all it is.
Crafting is a highly popular feature in MMOs or OMG, it adds more things to do for players tha keeps their intrest in the game.
Also only time people pay others to enchant their item it's because 1. They don't have the mats to begin with, 2. someone gives them the mats to enchant their gear, and 3. said enchantment provides skill up that the enchanter couldn't have preformed earlier due to lack of materials. So someone paying to enchant others gear is not HAMSTER but actually sound judgement.
/10chars
Say you who might just be the minority. It's up to Cryptic to decide whether Neverwinter needs crafting or not and chances are they will decided what is profitable and what the player base wants, they will adjust/deviate from 4e rules as they see fit as they have already done so with the hit roll.
I'm sure Cryptic will make an announcement about crafting when they finally start releasing detailed information about the game *drools*
These scrolls you could write on... it would be great for making secret messages, coded in some ways. A quest would require you to find clues about how to break the code and thus find a way to do the quest ;]
Oh no. The economy in Eve Online is the penultimate mmo economy. It is every bit as complex as a real world economy with lines of supply, logistics, warehousing, rent, everything. Even reimbursement, taxes, and more. It is what every robust and true game economy should aspire to be. That's a fact, not an opinion.
It would be solved once and then everyone else would google.
I like the Library idea. It would be a nice option to launch an adventure from.