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  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,211 Arc User
    bpstuart said:

    The Devs keep saying that the new system is easier to understand but it seems more obtuse than ever now.

    There is a lot less that you need to know for the new system. For one, it directly tells you what your stats are, as opposed to you having a number with no reference and one needs to know where to look to even know what that number means. As far as how to improve a stat, you can see what comes from your ratings and what comes from everything else. AND, it's the same % no matter where you are.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,256 Arc User
    rubytrue said:


    I would agree with you on dungeons, however, outside of a few builds, solo survivability in dungeons is pretty much out the window. The scaling changes have made it so you actually need a party there.

    Which is a good thing imo. Dungeons are for party play, not for soloing.
  • co2#1085 co2 Member Posts: 20 Arc User

    rubytrue said:


    I would agree with you on dungeons, however, outside of a few builds, solo survivability in dungeons is pretty much out the window. The scaling changes have made it so you actually need a party there.

    Which is a good thing imo. Dungeons are for party play, not for soloing.
    I don't agree. Dungeons should be for a party (kind of default) AND for any other combination down to soloing. This gives more experienced, progressed or just curious players some additional challenge and the different showcases of how different classes solve the content creates more depth and inspiration. Just limiting it to a certain party configuration limits options - makes the game more static and boring. There is no advantage in that ...

  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    My main concern aside from needing to rank up 10-12 new r15 enchants and 4-5 new r15 runestones, is soloing quests on my paladin. While I totally understand that the chicken and xuna are a problem on live, the chicken has been the only thing that makes solo questing on my paladin endurable. Sometimes I wish paladins had tank/dps paragon paths instead of tank/heals :/ like the fighter class. I haven't transferred my paladin to preview to test, but I'm very concerned solo questing is going to be a huge pia. I've switched to paladin mostly because I'm fed up with Wizard class, it's not engaging to play at all, but tanking at least is.

    As for the enchants, after I did in m16, I now refuse to trade in unbound enchants for bound ones, getting stuck with a couple r13 armor/weap enchants bta was a huge mistake on my part. I think the Radiant/Empowered exchange should either:

    a) Have an option to trade for ad like the bondings.
    b) Give bound/unbound choice pack based on the bound status of the traded in enchantment, meaning the store should differentiate between enchantments that are unbound, account bound, character bound, and give enchantments matching that bound status. Idk how much work this would be for the devs, but I suspect the inability to do this (easily), is probably why they default to bound-to-account.

    I think it's completely unacceptable to even think it's ok that players should be expected to trade in a large number of expensive tradable items for bound variants. This is by far my biggest grievance with the current upcoming changes.

  • jimmypdtjimmypdt Member Posts: 121 Arc User

    My main concern aside from needing to rank up 10-12 new r15 enchants and 4-5 new r15 runestones, is soloing quests on my paladin. While I totally understand that the chicken and xuna are a problem on live, the chicken has been the only thing that makes solo questing on my paladin endurable. Sometimes I wish paladins had tank/dps paragon paths instead of tank/heals :/ like the fighter class. I haven't transferred my paladin to preview to test, but I'm very concerned solo questing is going to be a huge pia. I've switched to paladin mostly because I'm fed up with Wizard class, it's not engaging to play at all, but tanking at least is.

    I've made a few posts about this elsewhere but it takes even longer as a paladin to kill things in preview compared to live. It take every class longer to kill things. That's why I have retired my paladin and moved to rogue. But then again I pretty much stopped playing once the Avernus 4 milestone thing started since I had no desire to do it so my build is not fully end game anymore. Best of luck with your paladin mate.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited January 16
    The main things I see as a problem are:

    1) accuracy and critical avoidance, if you cap them, completely negate 4 enemy stats... stats that are underpowered to begin with. This makes the game feel less interesting, and I think it will destroy PvP completely.

    2) weapons - I don't think there is motivation to go after the campaign weapons as player's progress through the game. No thought went into them... only into the Celestial and Lionheart. It seems to me... that this is because the devs are listening to the elite dungeon running teams, and ignoring the fact that solo players and 'progressing' players are the larger part of the Neverwinter audience.

    3) progression - new players & new characters are given access to powerful gear and given gifts for free that should take lots of exploration to find and obtain in a real game. This is being given out as if it's a gift... and yes, many players are screaming for it and more more more. The problem is, while some new players want a fast-pass to the end so they can get on discord and do team dungeons and feel part of an elite team, other players want to experience the real game from beginning to end, in it's originally intended state. They don't want hand outs, they want to find good stuff from playing. They want challenging play, and they want to feel true progression. I feel like the "full game" players are being completely left out. Again we are listening to the voices of a few expert players who suggest that the old content is horrible and that players should be allowed and encouraged to skip past it.

    4) The money thing - Veterans feel like they are being exploited when they spend a year of gameplay and money to bring a couple of their characters up to near-maximum capability, and then the game is changed to make the stuff they own worthless. Devs need to work harder at appearances... they matter. New opportunities bring excitement because they are opportunities to progress. Players 'freak out' if you take their power away and then create a grind or even worse... a pay requirement to get it back. Whether real or not... the appearance of this makes more players leave, than any other reason. New players need a more friendly pay environment in my opinion. Imagine starting a game... and the developer pop-up encourages you to buy 'XYZ' for real money. "XYZ" looks pretty good, and you think your gonna stick around for a while, so you buy it. You have great fun and a week later you buy another "XYZ", then another. You feel great about your character and the game itself and think you may have finally found the game for you. Then something happens. You discover that you could have obtained "XYZ" for half price on some other market or through a different method and most of the players know about it. This is confidence shaking. You feel robbed and exploited. We need to do a better job preventing this experience for our new players. I bet this is something we have all felt here and it does not create good feelings or inspire us to leave positive posts.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,211 Arc User
    About the gear, and specifically mount collars. Yes you lose some ratings as your item level goes up, but in return, you gain quite a bit of damage and HP. Ratings is not the end all be all that it used to be. And guess what, you can over come lacking ratings by having more sources of whatever stat you want. The 'other' portion of the contribution to totals of a stat can exceed 40%.
  • supmadbrosupmadbro Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    Could you bring back primal gear or a method to obtain this gear? as the boots and very strong, best in slot for majority of dps classes in the new dungeon. BIS gear shouldnt be unobtainable. Or just add new boots that have the same bonus as primal boots if you wanna stick to having only the 2 newest seal gear in the seal store.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    supmadbro said:

    Could you bring back primal gear or a method to obtain this gear? as the boots and very strong, best in slot for majority of dps classes in the new dungeon. BIS gear shouldnt be unobtainable. Or just add new boots that have the same bonus as primal boots if you wanna stick to having only the 2 newest seal gear in the seal store.

    BIS? You mean for the AP gain? Definitely not for ranger. Perhaps for some classes though hmmm. This is an interesting idea actually. Yes all gear should be obtainable. I'm surprised they are no longer in the seals store.
  • elderislt#1066 elderislt Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    > @jman3l#5579 said:
    > BIS? You mean for the AP gain? Definitely not for ranger. Perhaps for some classes though hmmm. This is an interesting idea actually. Yes all gear should be obtainable. I'm surprised they are no longer in the seals store.

    Low item lvl means low base dmg, and yea primal shoos not will be bis becose of wat.
    BABY ZARIEL.... 270k base HUNTER
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User

    > @jman3l#5579 said:

    > BIS? You mean for the AP gain? Definitely not for ranger. Perhaps for some classes though hmmm. This is an interesting idea actually. Yes all gear should be obtainable. I'm surprised they are no longer in the seals store.



    Low item lvl means low base dmg, and yea primal shoos not will be bis becose of wat.

    For a long time those boot have been good for AoE builds, used in mob clearing. BiS? Idk that's much more complex to prove/disprove, but they are and have been very good for trash clearing on Wizards.

  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User

    > @jman3l#5579 said:

    > BIS? You mean for the AP gain? Definitely not for ranger. Perhaps for some classes though hmmm. This is an interesting idea actually. Yes all gear should be obtainable. I'm surprised they are no longer in the seals store.



    Low item lvl means low base dmg, and yea primal shoos not will be bis becose of wat.

    For a long time those boot have been good for AoE builds, used in mob clearing. BiS? Idk that's much more complex to prove/disprove, but they are and have been very good for trash clearing on Wizards.
    True, I still think rusted iron leggings are unbeatable in any content at the moment. If you don't have power capped, Lightguard / Fallen Angel a close 2nd / 3rd.
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 333 Arc User
    Why are we scaled down in the newest dungeon to 51k =/ ? Gained ~1% stats just taking stuff off since I was above that...kind of silly..
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User

    Why are we scaled down in the newest dungeon to 51k =/ ? Gained ~1% stats just taking stuff off since I was above that...kind of silly..

    @noworries#8859 can't you scale the damage value down instead of the item level? It is quite silly that we lose stats like then when we are downscaled. Like scale the damage value down based on the item level maximum of that dungeon, but like let the stat distribution remain the same, otherwise its very strange to be incentivized to lower your IL by removing stuff.
  • kloudz#6121 kloudz Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited January 20
    For the class feat over penetration on the barbarian it was changed to where you have to cap out power and accuracy in order to receive a 5% damage boost. Is the cap meaning if you cap to 50% rating for both power/accuracy or the 90%. If it’s 90% then that feat is completely useless and is a nerf to barbarians.
  • noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 640 Cryptic Developer

    Why are we scaled down in the newest dungeon to 51k =/ ? Gained ~1% stats just taking stuff off since I was above that...kind of silly..

    @noworries#8859 can't you scale the damage value down instead of the item level? It is quite silly that we lose stats like then when we are downscaled. Like scale the damage value down based on the item level maximum of that dungeon, but like let the stat distribution remain the same, otherwise its very strange to be incentivized to lower your IL by removing stuff.
    Stats are not scaled down, they always work off of the unscaled item level. Only base damage and base maximum hit points go off of scaled item level.

    That person is saying since they can't use the extra item level to gain more HP/Damage they are taking off item level, and depending on what you take off can make stats you care about most go up. But that same thing will happen in any scaled or unscaled area.
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 333 Arc User
    You're scaling us down in the -newest- dungeon. This isn't about lomm, tomm, IC or even zariel. Why, in the newest, 'hardest' content, are we better off taking gear off to cap our stats with no wep/hp loss than being fully geared. Its plain insanity.
  • miliantriciamiliantricia Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    Developers, here you are probably working on a new class, but there will be no desire to play and pump 10 mounts and 10 companions to a new character. Even now, I have no desire to play. Please make it possible to transfer satellites by account!
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    I think the scaling should provide some sort of benefit for progression. As I understand it, it's currently more of a cap on TIL, and baring extra features (gear, feats, etc), a cap on damage and hp.


    What I would suggest is something like:
    MIN(TIL, Cap) + [MAX(0, TIL - CAP) * MOD]


    Basically:
    if TIL > CAP; then Cap + ((TIL - CAP) * 0.1) else TIL

    where MOD is something like 0.03, 0.05, 0.1, etc.

    For example:
    Say the current TIL cap is 20k and a player has 54k TIL, and the MOD is 0.1.
    In the dungeon the player's item level would be scaled to: 23.4k


    34k = MAX(0, 54k - 20k)
    23.4k = 20k + [34k * 0.1]


    It's not much better, but I think you can see my point, there will be benefit to being stronger and progressing, but not so much as to be totally unbalanced.

    The MOD would have to be determined based on CAP because a very low Item Level dungeon would provide more benefit to being stronger. For example using the same numbers as above except in a 6k dungeon, the player would be scaled to 10.8k, which might be ok, but idk, that's subjective.


    48k = MAX(0, 54k - 6k)
    10.8k = 6k + [48k * 0.1]


    @noworries#8859

  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited January 21
    Something like that would be nice. If we could keep 10% of our 'overage', peeps wouldn't feel the need to dump gear when down-sizing to a lower IL. On the other hand, 10% of 50,000 IL going into a starter dungeon would still be insanely overpowered.... so i think that while it would work, it might be best to cap it at no more than 125% of the IL that one is down-scaling to. So, if a 50,000 IL downscales to a 2,000 IL dungeon... they don't get 4,800 bonus IL cause the bonus IL would be capped at 500 maximum, bringing their character to 2,500 IL.
  • spartan3121#9063 spartan3121 Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    i swear some of the decisions you guys make just makes zero damn sense
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User



    @noworries#8859 said
    Stats are not scaled down, they always work off of the unscaled item level. Only base damage and base maximum hit points go off of scaled item level.

    That person is saying since they can't use the extra item level to gain more HP/Damage they are taking off item level, and depending on what you take off can make stats you care about most go up. But that same thing will happen in any scaled or unscaled area.

    @noworries#8859
    Don't you understand that this is an inherent problem

    Stats always working off of the unscaled item level gives lower level players a huge advantage in lower level dungeons as it is much easier to bring up your Stats at lower item level.

    Simply scaling base damage and HP breaks low level dungeons.

    As you are also planning on allowing players to scale up to run Sharandar, this will also inherently break the damage low item level players can do in the new area.

    I would seriously reconsider releasing this broken system on Thursday.

    Push back the patch - it is NOT ready.

    Fix the scaling - make player stats reflect the max item level of the dungeon. Granted, this will give high level players an advantage by boosting most stats up to their maximum of 50% in many low level dungeons, but this should be the reward for leveling and grinding gear.

    If this is not done, you will continue to have barren low level dungeons - content will simply not be played because your new and improved system is still a broken system.

    @noworries#8859 I agree^. It is not ready to come to live. There are too many problems with the system.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,211 Arc User


    Stats are not scaled down, they always work off of the unscaled item level. Only base damage and base maximum hit points go off of scaled item level.

    That person is saying since they can't use the extra item level to gain more HP/Damage they are taking off item level, and depending on what you take off can make stats you care about most go up. But that same thing will happen in any scaled or unscaled area.

    @noworries#8859
    Don't you understand that this is an inherent problem

    Stats always working off of the unscaled item level gives lower level players a huge advantage in lower level dungeons as it is much easier to bring up your Stats at lower item level.

    Simply scaling base damage and HP breaks low level dungeons.

    As you are also planning on allowing players to scale up to run Sharandar, this will also inherently break the damage low item level players can do in the new area.

    I would seriously reconsider releasing this broken system on Thursday.

    Push back the patch - it is NOT ready.

    Fix the scaling - make player stats reflect the max item level of the dungeon. Granted, this will give high level players an advantage by boosting most stats up to their maximum of 50% in many low level dungeons, but this should be the reward for leveling and grinding gear.

    If this is not done, you will continue to have barren low level dungeons - content will simply not be played because your new and improved system is still a broken system.

    Most players will do this, no matter what the system. They will use to their advantage no matter what to min/max. The fact that it exists doesn't make the system broken. It's more to what extent. Aside from a few percentage points, and maybe more with mythic mount collars, this really isn't that big of an issue.
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