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  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,211 Arc User

    How are weapon and armor enchantments and those companion' bonuses which reIated to weapon damage % gonna work if weapon no Ionger has weapon damage?

    Weapon damage was just moved to be based on TiL, so those weapon damage will use the base damage derived from TiL.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    @rubytrue You are mistaking "I like it more" with "I have more choices". Really - you do not have more choices. No, you don't. Especially IF you want to reach the best effectiveness - so at best in this aspect it did not change anything.

    Defence, deflect, awareness that they have their own utility? Interesting, but look at it this way: Defence can reduce incoming damage by 90%. Any incoming damage. Deflect is nice with heavy impact, IF you invest in 2 stats. (which is hard and in case of deflect severity impossible). Awareness can mitigate up to 40% of incoming damage in some occasions. Critical avoidance will reduce less than 40% incoming damage.
    This means that if you CAN invest in defence, you would be fool to invest to anything else. That leaves the other stats only for tanks - because they actually can cap defence through forte.
    Do not drag here something about effective HP when we are already talking about it.

    Similar goes for damage dealing. The biggest impact has at beginning accuracy (till 50%), then, as you add stats, power slowly gets its turn - and once power is capped... you see, you are in the same pond. If you want to be the most effective cookie, you do not have much of a choice. It is given by the difference between 90% reduction and +90% increase. And the difference between "sometimes" and "always".

    I do not want to take from you the statement "I like it more". Sure, you can. But you are claiming that if you wanted to be most effective in previous system, there was only one way - while in the new system, if you do not care about effectiveness, you have more choices. Those are, however, independent statements. Totally independent statements.

    edit: Oh, and one more thing... when you mentioned combatant manoeuvres... You see, this one at least worked for someone even before. But there were occasions (like mount powers being deflected, rusted iron legins -25% incoming healing staying while the summer heal nerf hit, TT and such) which do make perfect sense in the new system. They were obviously made for the new system - the devs just dropped it to the old one without adjusting. So yes, in the new system many things suddenly make sense and have purpose - but it is due to being tailored for the new system. It is not a benefit that now it suddenly works, it was a lame laziness that it did not work before.
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    @rubytrue You are mistaking "I like it more" with "I have more choices". Really - you do not have more choices. No, you don't. Especially IF you want to reach the best effectiveness - so at best in this aspect it did not change anything.

    Defence, deflect, awareness that they have their own utility? Interesting, but look at it this way: Defence can reduce incoming damage by 90%. Any incoming damage. Deflect is nice with heavy impact, IF you invest in 2 stats. (which is hard and in case of deflect severity impossible). Awareness can mitigate up to 40% of incoming damage in some occasions. Critical avoidance will reduce less than 40% incoming damage.
    This means that if you CAN invest in defence, you would be fool to invest to anything else. That leaves the other stats only for tanks - because they actually can cap defence through forte.
    Do not drag here something about effective HP when we are already talking about it.

    Similar goes for damage dealing. The biggest impact has at beginning accuracy (till 50%), then, as you add stats, power slowly gets its turn - and once power is capped... you see, you are in the same pond. If you want to be the most effective cookie, you do not have much of a choice. It is given by the difference between 90% reduction and +90% increase. And the difference between "sometimes" and "always".

    I do not want to take from you the statement "I like it more". Sure, you can. But you are claiming that if you wanted to be most effective in previous system, there was only one way - while in the new system, if you do not care about effectiveness, you have more choices. Those are, however, independent statements. Totally independent statements.

    edit: Oh, and one more thing... when you mentioned combatant manoeuvres... You see, this one at least worked for someone even before. But there were occasions (like mount powers being deflected, rusted iron legins -25% incoming healing staying while the summer heal nerf hit, TT and such) which do make perfect sense in the new system. They were obviously made for the new system - the devs just dropped it to the old one without adjusting. So yes, in the new system many things suddenly make sense and have purpose - but it is due to being tailored for the new system. It is not a benefit that now it suddenly works, it was a lame laziness that it did not work before.

    Look, it's not my problem that you have difficulty understanding basic math, and it isn't my job to teach you the second grade concept of the Commutative Property of Multiplication. If you don't understand that by now, you will never get it.

    The new Combat System, in overly simplified terms, is nothing more than two different multiplier sets (sets that modify Weapon Damage and Hit Points) battling it out.

    The reason why prior Combat Systems led to really limited builds is because the multiplier sets impacted power which in turn modified base weapon damage (in overly simplified terms).

    What people haven't wrapped their heads around yet, is that power, as we are used to thinking of it as a game mechanic, is no longer part of the game. We still have this thing, this offensive stat that is called "Power", but it really isn't power in the same sense that you are used to thinking about it. "Power" in the new combat system is functionally equivalent to what we currently consider Armor Penetration; that is why it is now a capped stat. People like the word "Power" so the dev team renamed Armor Penetration "Power" to keep the player base from completely freaking out because the entire purpose of the grind was to maximize power and its subsequent multipliers. Any game or combat system that focuses on power and power multipliers will inevitably lead to "Power creep" and a narrowing of viable play choices resulting in a focus on Min/Max builds.

    You take Power (as we've traditionally come to know it) out of the game, and you've solved that *fundamental* problem of power creep and the subsequent issue of Min/Max builds and you completely open up the possibility of wholly varied and equally viable builds--because of that Commutative Property of Multiplication.

    If it makes you feel any better, remnants of what we used to consider "Power" are still in the game but it is now called "Total Item Level" because that is now the base multiplier for both weapon damage (the damage you can do) and hit points (the damage you can take). Total Item Level, in this sense, is really an expanded concept of power since it impact both offensive and defensive stats. Personally, I think Total Item Level is a rather blase nomenclature; I think something along the lines of Aura Level is more reflective of how it plays out in the game, but Total Item Level is easier to understand, especially in a new combat system that has some underlying assumptions that people don't quite comprehend yet.

  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    @rubytrue And why do you not try to have a look at the damage formula? At least - if you have the guts to make comments about the basic math...

    Your commutative property of multiplication is a nice thing IF you are multiplying the same things. You are not. You have subtractions there which leads to multiplications of different numbers.
    For defensive stats... for example take combat advantage:
    base 100dmg, base combat advantage against you +90% damage
    base total: 100*(1)+100*(1*0,9) = 190
    If you add one percent defence: 100*(1-0,01)+100*(1-0,01)*0,9) = 99*(1+0,9) = 188,1
    If you ad 1% awareness instead: 100*(1)+100*(1)*(0,9-0,01) = 100*(1+0,89) = 189
    If you add crit to the mixture (on the condition you got hit critically):
    90% severity:
    a)100*0,99*1,9*(1+0,9)=357,39
    b)100*1*1,89*(1+0,9)=359,1
    89% severity at 0 def and 0 awareness:
    (100*1*1,9*(1+0,89)=359,1 (adding to def is a winner even if the hit was critical)

    The thing is that defence directly lowers the base (1) multiplier, while everything else - if it even comes to it - lowers the 1,9xmultiplier. 0,01/1 is bigger ration than 0,01/1,9. (again, deflect has a different, parabolic curve, so it is more complicated)
    Yes, you are right that in the end you multiply a lot of numbers in between, but the defence has different standing - and is always applicable.

    And now it can - instead of halving - reduce the incoming damage to 1/10th. That is why I consider it blunder. It has too much of an impact - up to five times more than it used to have. (well, as I have already said, that number is unreachable for non-tank classes)
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User

    @Rubytrue

    I think we are from the same alliance, but you are effectively wrong in your assessment regarding the minmaxing. Although it might appear to you like you have the freedom of choice in managing your build, reality is such that you don't and won't ever have many options to choose from, and you will be obliged to wear a specific build with specific items and specific pets in case you'd like to play endgame content. That's all there is to it, really.
    This never changed throughout the history of Neverwinter, and I've seen six systems interchanged so far, with two being the worst of the bunch

    - MOD6
    - MOD16

    Each and every one of them fundamentally required a very specific build with little to no room for any personalization in terms of itemization.

    Only thing that changes is the amount of Grind you will invest (again) to get there, which will eventually be nullified.

    I appreciate your candour and pure optimism regarding these changes, of course, but as much as it pains me to say it - I can only perceive them as nothing more than naiveté and wishful thinking. Once you get to endgame content, you will forget about things that you write now and realize that you can't go with a butterfly & spatula build since this game isn't really giving you other options to cover for your inconsistencies. Right now you will have to make your build VERY carefully and hope that some newer patch won't give you items that will make you having to completely change not only the items you wear, but also pets you spent time upgrading.

    The way you think this might work, comparing it to the systems seen in many aRPG such as Grim Dawn, PoE, Sacred etc, in which case you can make various builds that will work in your favor, even if the build isn't optimized flawlessly, but this is a MMO game where you need to fit a specific role, with specific items, specific optimization, specific caps. This won't change. Point is - you don't have such liberty as you present it, in fact you will have a hard time having any liberty once you realize that your gameplay will turn into getting an extra 1% (Attribute) by chasing after some item or a pet that suddenly costs 3.5mil AD on AH and doesn't really drop from a dungeon anymore. Or if it does, the chance is 0.01%.

    Main issue isn't the ability to adapt to the new system, but the fact that these changes are done hastily and often at the expense of the Players. We're served a narrative that it's for the good of the system, but this is old news. It is only for the good of the pockets. And not Player pockets.
    This is 2nd time it is happening in a relatively short time (in terms of Neverwinter, that is, since this is a game where you need to plan in advance, often for months).

    As for the combatlog, no, it doesn't show that we're stronger as compared to the server now, it shows that we're weaker - tenfold. A somewhat maxed out build should not look the way it did, meaning that we're crippled from the start and won't have the itemization options for at least (AT LEAST) another 6 months, if that even.

    The procedural and continuous mechanic changes, done abruptly and hastily, at the expense of the Playerbase, is and will remain my main issue with the current client build. It remains something I detest and unless someone explains why Armor Penetration suddenly is removed, and for what purpose concisely, I don't think there's much for me to continue chatting here about.

    Cheers!

    @c1k4ml3kc3

    I guess you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion about degrees of freedom within the game. I'm completely free to do what I want in the game. To be sure, I have what many would consider end game builds under the current combat system, but that isn't my main emphasis in the game because I find end game "trials" not only boring, but actually kind of soul crushing. Even the definition of the word "trial" is off-putting: from Merriam-Webster Dictionary, "one of a number of repetitions of an experiment" and "a test of faith, patience, or stamina through subjection to suffering or temptation; broadly, a source of vexation or annoyance."

    Trials in Neverwinter are horrible, horrible experiences in my book, not because I can't do them, but because of what they are designed to do to the player. We need to make something perfectly clear here: end game trials are nothing more than a pre-determined script that players try to execute as efficiently as possible. That's it. When you get down to it, the point is to become the most average player possible within the context of that script. Whoever masters becoming "most average" within that script gets to claim the title: BiS.

    That isn't *my* idea of fun.

    Judging from the language of a lot of players, it really isn't their idea of fun either because throughout this thread I keep hearing the word(s) "grind" or "investment" or "money" or "time" or any number of sentiments that suggest a fear of change that might result in the loss of their status as "BiS" (--or should I say most average possible?).

    I get it. Most people like predictability and find comfort in it, thus the appeal of "trials" and whatnot. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. The fact that trials require collaboration and cooperation make it socially reinforcing as well.

    I'm just not a big fan of executing the exact same script over and over and over. While I like familiarity, I also really like a bit of variability, chaos, unpredictability, and change in my games. That novelty that comes with variability, chaos, unpredictability and change is what makes it a *game* and not a job, chore, grind, or whatever you want to call it.

    This new combat system inherently injects variability, chaos, unpredictability, and change into the game because since you can't cap all the stats--which is inherently predictable and conforming to a circumscribed script, it becomes a *choice* based combat system--choices that human players make, human players that by nature tend to be at least somewhat unpredictable.

    Since the script has been upended, there is no more "meta." There are unbelievable possibilities.

    All I can say is, "Embrace the Change."



  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    @rubytrue And why do you not try to have a look at the damage formula? At least - if you have the guts to make comments about the basic math...

    Your commutative property of multiplication is a nice thing IF you are multiplying the same things. You are not. You have subtractions there which leads to multiplications of different numbers.
    For defensive stats... for example take combat advantage:
    base 100dmg, base combat advantage against you +90% damage
    base total: 100*(1)+100*(1*0,9) = 190
    If you add one percent defence: 100*(1-0,01)+100*(1-0,01)*0,9) = 99*(1+0,9) = 188,1
    If you ad 1% awareness instead: 100*(1)+100*(1)*(0,9-0,01) = 100*(1+0,89) = 189
    If you add crit to the mixture (on the condition you got hit critically):
    90% severity:
    a)100*0,99*1,9*(1+0,9)=357,39
    b)100*1*1,89*(1+0,9)=359,1
    89% severity at 0 def and 0 awareness:
    (100*1*1,9*(1+0,89)=359,1 (adding to def is a winner even if the hit was critical)

    The thing is that defence directly lowers the base (1) multiplier, while everything else - if it even comes to it - lowers the 1,9xmultiplier. 0,01/1 is bigger ration than 0,01/1,9. (again, deflect has a different, parabolic curve, so it is more complicated)
    Yes, you are right that in the end you multiply a lot of numbers in between, but the defence has different standing - and is always applicable.

    And now it can - instead of halving - reduce the incoming damage to 1/10th. That is why I consider it blunder. It has too much of an impact - up to five times more than it used to have. (well, as I have already said, that number is unreachable for non-tank classes)

    @rikitaki I don't think you understand it, but you are actually proving my point for two reasons: 1) you are only using minimum values, which like it's converse, doesn't actually exist in the game, you should really try plugging in different values from the game and see what happens, and more importantly, 2) you are treating base damage, combat advantage damage, crit strike (and severity) as independent events within an attack (actually, you seem to be treating each type of attack as a separate attack).

    I understand your concern about defense, I really do; I just don't share your sentiment.

    The devs, through forte, seem to have made it perfectly clear that they want certain archetypes to cap (and then prioritize) certain stats. For tanks, for example, that is Defense, and for DPS classes that is Power because these stats modify the base stat generated from our Total Item Level. Tanks base stat modifier from TIL (x120) is Hit Points (the amount of damage you can take), and defense modifies the amount of damage you can take; likewise, for DPS classes, Power directly modifies weapon damage (the amount of damage you can do) which itself is the base stat modifier (x.12 of total item level).

    Where this all gets really interesting is when we start looking at different in-game items and abilities that can be used in lieu of defense (or offense depending on the case) to reach that cap of 90% damage reduction (or production); from what I can tell, that seems to be a hard cap: companions like Angel of Protection or Stalwart Golden Lion provide damage reduction; potions now make a huge difference and act as, you know, like Magical Potions, Hell's Heel Clackers gives a 3% damage reduction--I guarantee you no one kept those from Mod 16-19 (I know whenever they showed up in my inventory they were automatically converted to refinement points), but now they are a really viable option--and they allow precious stats that would of *had* to dedicated to defense go towards another stat area either on offense or defense (your--and I keep repeating it--*choice*).

    There are just *so* many different combinations now, you just can't tell someone that they have to build a class a set, specific way any more. There are guiding principles for each archetype: Tanks, pick things that let you take more damage; DPS, pick things that let you deal more damage; Healers, pick things that let you heal more damage.

    After that, how you get there is really up to you because there are now so many possible permutations on *how* you get there.

    The meta is dead.
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    rubytrue said:


    I guess you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion about degrees of freedom within the game. I'm completely free to do what I want in the game. To be sure, I have what many would consider end game builds under the current combat system, but that isn't my main emphasis in the game because I find end game "trials" not only boring, but actually kind of soul crushing. Even the definition of the word "trial" is off-putting: from Merriam-Webster Dictionary, "one of a number of repetitions of an experiment" and "a test of faith, patience, or stamina through subjection to suffering or temptation; broadly, a source of vexation or annoyance."

    Actually, you are not really free to do what you want if you'd like to play end-game content because you're bound to the respective team and the communication within the said team is the key to beating the content easily. This is true regardless of the name for the content, honestly.
    rubytrue said:

    Trials in Neverwinter are horrible, horrible experiences in my book, not because I can't do them, but because of what they are designed to do to the player. We need to make something perfectly clear here: end game trials are nothing more than a pre-determined script that players try to execute as efficiently as possible. That's it. When you get down to it, the point is to become the most average player possible within the context of that script. Whoever masters becoming "most average" within that script gets to claim the title: BiS.

    That isn't *my* idea of fun.

    I also think that people who've spent millions of AD to beat Zariel shouldn't be penalized with the current system changes after they've been told how great the new damage from Celestial weapons actually is, after people have been complaining that there is no real prize in beating the Zariel's Challenge due to a decision of developers to cut down on new gear & Bound-on-Equip drops, thus making the only initiative to run Zariel's challenge

    a) Weapon damage
    b) Bragging rights

    Though, I'm unsure how bragging rights would work in a content where you essentially would waste millions of AD only to run it, specifically true for DPS players who had to take quite a detour from the meta in order to build HP, often VERY expensive detour in building HP, something that DPS didn't really need.

    So, not only are those items nerfed, but there's no more point in even using said items since now DPS are basically tanky.

    However, even with what you perceive as a horrible experience - I still had some 40+ people applying for ToMM training runs and completions, no? And we led people in that horrible, horrible experience, no? And had their game upped to some extent.
    Especially newer players who did learn how important it is to cooperate as a team and who did adapt to the plausibility of having multiple artifacts & mount powers. Expensive, yes. Grindy, yes. Useful, yes. Fundamentally changed without any notice or ability to have it changed? Unfortunately, yes.
    That is something that ToMM did wonderfully. Otherwise, I do agree that ToMM is a horrible experience for a new player, but I do not agree with the premise that it isn't fun for said new players. Although I personally find ToMM some of the most boring content this game saw (Basically it is a dance choreography), many enjoyed it and had such a wonderful response in finally being able to beat it, which I had the pleasure of hearing on Discord.
    In fact I've seen people that have completed ToMM before they've completed virtually anything else in the game in a lot of other Discord channels, which is funny. I find such division among the playerbase to be saddening, but that's the reality of the previous meta. So I don't understand this - you tell me 'Accept the changes" but you can't accept that a lot of people want/like/have fun in playing ToMM? IDK what to think about that, tbh. It is a bit feigned.

    Now, as you say, end-game content is "executing a script", the reality is such that these end-game contents are actually very easy to learn and beat without losing a single, solitary life. As I often say, hardest challenge is keeping the enemies from hitting the merchant's horses in Icewind Dale. If you can do that, you can do anything in this game, really.
    Such challenges were requested, for a long time, by endgame players across the Neverwinter and many wanted to give it a go at Halaster. At first it's been said that ToMM is highly situational, possibly one of a kind trial, that potentially won't repeat, only to have Zariel's Challenge soon after emerging for, yet again, 10 people. This brings some challenges to the table, notably in finding people who'd care enough to play it to begin with. When people say how they want to play Zariel, I ask them - Why? Why do you want to play it? What do you expect to see. When they say that they'd like to experience it, that's a nice thing, but they should understand just how much they'd be sacrificing in order to be eligible to play it in the first place. And although this is true for any new content, for Zariel's challenge this was supported by the amount of necessary changes for anyone who wanted to go as DPS.

    Many have succeeded in doing so. Although you personally do not like said content (neither do I, but for different reasons which you can read in our Discord channel), many do enjoy it and have given it a go at one time or another. It is only natural that you'd like to progress further in the game and eventually beat all content. But with the newer things you have to wonder - is it worth beating a new content if someone who never even stepped in a trial is as useful as anyone else at this point?

    Trials are not without their problems.
    When I initiated and held ToMM trainings, there was only one person who was being angry and entitled for having to make changes to their build. That person quickly gave up. Everyone else worked their best in order to finish the said trial. It was not something that general NWO's playerbase was used to. And they still aren't, to be honest.

    Although that might not be your idea of fun, a lot of people do find it engaging and it keeps pushing them forward in striving to (and having) the most optimal build for the endgame content. At least for the time being.

    I never found it either hard nor fun.

    Zariel's Challenge broke that, and Zariel's Challenge was a massive letdown for anyone who beat it, economically speaking. If you did grind in order to beat Zariel, or weirdly enough spent 20m+ AD to be relevant in Zariel's Challenge, with the current changes in the system your entire build and work are more or less gone with the wind of change. Without any form of caution.

    I'm very happy I never went there nor have completed Zariel's Challenge. In my book I find that to be a success.

    And that's the problem, too. You want to know why? Basically, you needn't play anything at all in Neverwinter and you will still remain fundamentally on-par more or less without ever changing much of your build. You can literally come after taking a 2 year break and in less than a month you will have the most optimal build. And all that effort that others invested in the previous 2 years is more or less for nothing. That's the problem.

    Now, if this system was balanced out, people who did all content and strived towards finishing it during the time content was active, they should be receiving around 1000-2000-3000-4000-5000 IL for simply finishing the content. There should be a system tracker of sorts that'd follow how active someone was in playing the game in the past six months or so, so that they are fundamentally stronger than a returnee. They'd work similarly to how VIP works - and each of these should be active if you've completed a trial/dungeon or content in the past month or so at least five times. The content itself should be the most challenging content at that + 4 dungeons/contents from the previous 2 years. After the new content comes up, you have 1 month to complete it in order to keep the final status, otherwise as each month passes you lose 1000 points. After 6 months of inactivity, you lose all 5.000 IL.
    Hey, at least that'd be far more fair than what we have now with folk to can literally just slay Mog, do some Tier 1 hunts, finish a few MEs and be well on their way.
    rubytrue said:

    Judging from the language of a lot of players, it really isn't their idea of fun either because throughout this thread I keep hearing the word(s) "grind" or "investment" or "money" or "time" or any number of sentiments that suggest a fear of change that might result in the loss of their status as "BiS" (--or should I say most average possible?).

    I get it. Most people like predictability and find comfort in it, thus the appeal of "trials" and whatnot. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. The fact that trials require collaboration and cooperation make it socially reinforcing as well.

    I'm just not a big fan of executing the exact same script over and over and over. While I like familiarity, I also really like a bit of variability, chaos, unpredictability, and change in my games. That novelty that comes with variability, chaos, unpredictability and change is what makes it a *game* and not a job, chore, grind, or whatever you want to call it.


    Oh, but how wrong you are in assuming that Grind & Time are suddenly out of the window :> And predictability? There's nothing to predict, you will have builds that focus on 90% Critical Chance and max Crtical Severity. And they will run ahead, killing everything, as you stand behind doing nothing. That's the new meta.

    If anything, right now you will have the most Grindy Time in Neverwinter. I haven't seen something like this in a very long time.
    Essentially, people will opt not doing it and essentially skip most of it. Just like they did with Zariel's challenge.

    Just look at the premise of Zariel's Challenge promises -
    - "We feel that Zariel's challenge shouldn't hold items of great value since Damage alone should prove more than worthy to obtain."
    - "We feel that Damage is a stupid concept anyway and we shall use Item Level, the most arbitrary point of focus for any newbie ever, in order to evaluate their overall damaging potential."

    How can anyone who completed Zariel's Challenge, realistically, not feel betrayed after all the effort they've put in to complete it? If I completed it and for nothing - I'd be furious right now.
    rubytrue said:

    This new combat system inherently injects variability, chaos, unpredictability, and change into the game because since you can't cap all the stats--which is inherently predictable and conforming to a circumscribed script, it becomes a *choice* based combat system--choices that human players make, human players that by nature tend to be at least somewhat unpredictable.

    No, again wrong. How can you not see this? : D There is even less variability now after the changes because no sane person will chase randomly after the attributes. You will go for a very limited, but useful, build and it will be the same for everyone because the classes and their powers in combination with the content you play does not allow nor call for having arbitrary builds.
    The math and numbers represented give a very sincere estimation of the overall capabilities. I was able to quickly deduce the overall damaging potential and realize that it fundamentally is bringing us back around 15 mods or so to the old system that was also being called "problematic", which is why one has to wonder what was the whole point of changing said system in the first place. When reason doesn't appear to be obvious, I consider it a cheap way to keep the game fresh.

    If anything, you had more variability with the current system that would halve your Critical Strike @ 50%, for instance. You will have no variability if you have the option for having 90% Critical Chance + CA : D It is just a nobrainer.

    Furthermore, just imagine the amount of necessary Class changes needed for all those Encounters and Features that were capped internally to 50% Critical Chance.
    rubytrue said:


    Since the script has been upended, there is no more "meta." There are unbelievable possibilities.

    All I can say is, "Embrace the Change."

    No, I'm sorry you think that way, but no. : D

    It is not about how you feel you should play it, but how useful you are for the team. Like I said, if you come with a Spatula to the team and I invited you, I'm the one being blamed for inviting you in the first place because others will feel like they're carrying you, and you'd often be oblivious to the fact that you're actually ineffective in beating the content. This is why good players might tend to stick together and play together at the expense of being called the elitists simply because it takes a good amount of time to explain and help newbies to actually reach the point where they can be useful. It is a process that one has to go through and get a hold alone.

    This will be especially true for Tanks now since many pets were nerfed to the ground and you won't have superhuman tanks anymore running around with Xunas or Chickens, going faster than anyone else. Or, if you do have them - they won't be as menacing as they were before. At least not compared to DPS classes.

    If it takes you 40 minutes to beat something that someone else beats in 10 - you're doing it wrong.

    For what you WISH it would happen - you'd need to have class features/encounters and at least 20 more different class-based options for it to really work. You don't have that now since classes were more or less decapitated in MOD16, splitting many encounters in half. And even before that it was a problem to keep many of the options available to use for different content. And even after the changes classes are not balanced out. And even after those changes, the classes received no real fixes for the bugs out of which I'll note the Wizard as being left in mud, more or less a dead class.

    Hypothetically speaking for your Freedom build - let's make a build that focuses on Deflect, right? Which content would that work for the most?
    For these changes to actually work - having a build that focuses on Deflect would require a class specific options, in fact an entire paragon, and would have to be made extensively given quite a bit of time in order to balance it out, which is something that Cryptic never does. In order that you can use Deflect options to overcome things you do not possess (like damage), you'd need powers that allow you to utilize it, correct? So that essentially puts it in the vein of games like Grim Dawn & PoE.
    That'd have to be something like "Each time you deflect whilst this Encounter is active, deal 1.25x of damage. 5x if you have this feature active".
    Then you'd have a Feature that improves your Deflect to the point where you can actually sustain yourself by having a Deflect Build without investing more than 70% of ratings for it to be useful. Then you'd have items that benefit you slightly different to that of other classes, where you can use a Weapon Enchant + Armor Enchant and greatly tinker with your build.
    And then you'd need content that actually benefits such a build where even good tanks can't really hold aggro well enough in order for your build to really shine through, but for the said content not to be draconically penalizing for anyone else either for not having a Deflect build. And even at that point, I doubt it'd be the most efficient build since in this game it pays the most to virtually collect mobs and quickly dispose of them, or avoid mobs altogether, because you want to save time. Now, that alone is the most prevailing factor for anyone playing, especially with the prizes which are RNG at the end of a dungeon.

    More times you can complete a dungeon, more times you actually win something useful.

    Say that you'd like to opt for Deflect build as your main toon, there is no class that benefits greatly from having Deflect, let alone Deflect Severity. In no way would you be saving time because there is no content like having a route in a Dungeon filled with 500 spikes and arrows as you jump on the platforms trying to avoid Lava. There is something like a bootleg version of that both in Lair of Lostmauth and a bit of that poison in the Fane of the Night Serpent. Those are small segments. So having a BUILD that focuses on Deflect would work only if

    a) The prize in the dungeon is highly valuable and sought after both for personal use & reselling.
    b) The fastest route is through the spike challenge for which the Deflect build would work amazingly.
    c) Have a class that specializes in the Deflect build and still remains fairly competitive in DPS without losing horribly.
    d) Have a future dungeon so that your Deflect build becomes a staple in one way or another, otherwise nobody will use it.

    Keyfactor is : USABILITY in relation to TIME WASTED.

    Reality is that Dungeons aren't made like that where you'd find a secret passage in order to make your run way faster.
    The only time this was possible was with Pirate King's Retreat, which I often speedrun before the passageways that were obviously designed to allow such a thing were patched with mud and invisible walls.

    The system/editor used is like a decade old based on what I heard. And is convoluted to work with, so we're happy to even have things like those Infernal machines driving in the wastelands. I can't even imagine the amount of work that required to make it both look and be visually pretty by NWO' standards.

    Now, you can't use Deflect as your main Attribute to deal damage. Essentially, you'd be like MOD3-4 Opressor Control Build, being able to hold a lot of enemies permafrozen, but dealing almost no damage. So what's the point of that? It is useless in any content where you need to actually keel enemies in order to progress.

    You only have two at the start: Critical Strike build & Combat Advantage build.

    If you plan to play any SOLO content, you will need to build 90% Accuracy, I promise you that : D Otherwise you will end up playing easiest content that you used to finish in 3 minutes - 30 minutes.

    And suddenly you will realize just how ineffective the changes were.

    As for the Cheese, these changes in no way would really affect me because I'd quickly find a way to mitigate it. Problem is the way these changes affect people around me and the amount of time it'd take them to really nail their builds to the point where I, too, can comfortably play with them without being tired after just one dungeon. There was no content I didn't finish, only the content I chose not to finish, often due to ethical reasons and wasting time.
    The point is that I'm tired of mitigating Cryptic's changes to the system that often result in having to do things from the start, again.

    I hope that you do understand that you're not really doing anything unique nor something that's not been done before by a lot of us, over and over again. At some point it is rather plausible to stop doing that because you can't see that it changes, in which case changing the game altogether might be the best course of action for the sake of having fun.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    @rubytrue OK, lets have an obvious example. You have 4 equal numbers and you are multiplying them. (that is not the case in the game, but it is for you to understand)
    10x10x10x10
    Your task is to subtract 1 from any of those numbers in a goal to reach result as small as possible.
    now comes into the play your commutative property, it does not matter if you do 9x10x10x10, or 10x9x10x10, or... the result will be always the same: 9000
    So, now you have 9x10x10x10.
    Once again, your task is to subtract 1 from any of those numbers, in order to make the result as small as possible.
    Is it once again irrelevant which number will be reduced? No! 8x10x10x10 is much smaller number than 9x9x10x10! And, surprisingly, it works always - the bigger relative change in number always plays out as the best choice.

    In the game you have AxBxCx... and you are subtracting 0,01 from any multiplier you choose in a goal to reach the smallest possible number. As long as the second, third or whatever term is bigger than the first one, I can guarantee you that subtracting from the first term has bigger impact. Guess what: defence starts as 1 multiplier, while those other terms at 1,9 and cannot go below 1. Those other terms will always have lesser impact than defence.
    And - often even do not come into the formula.
    Post edited by rikitaki on
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    rikitaki said:

    @rubytrue OK, lets have an obvious example. You have 4 equal numbers and you are multiplying them. (that is not the case in the game, but it is for you to understand)
    10x10x10x10
    Your task is to subtract 1 from any of those numbers in a goal to reach result as small as possible.
    now comes into the play your commutative property, it does not matter if you do 9x10x10x10, or 10x9x10x10, or... the result will be always the same: 9000
    So, now you have 9x10x10x10.
    Once again, your task is to subtract 1 from any of those numbers, in order to make the result as small as possible.
    Is it once again irrelevant which number will be reduced? No! 8x10x10x10 is much smaller number than 9x9x10x10! And, surprisingly, it works always - the bigger relative change in number always plays out as the best choice.

    In the game you have AxBxCx... and you are subtracting 0,01 from any multiplier you choose in a goal to reach the smallest possible number. As long as the second, third or whatever term is bigger than the first one, I can guarantee you that subtracting from the first term has bigger impact. Guess what: defence starts as 1 multiplier, while those other terms at 1,9 and cannot go below 1. Those other terms will always have lesser impact than defence.
    And - often even do not come into the formula.

    I think where we disagree is to whether or not the 90% defense cap will 1) result in a singular type of build, and 2) whether or not 90% defense is game breaking.

    Regarding #1: I totally get what you are saying; really, I do. I understand the math. You and I both agree on the math regarding the impact of defense (especially at extreme levels approaching either a higher or lower cap) and how it impacts the modification of (effective) hit points (how much base damage you can take). What I am saying is that there are a myriad of ways to get there, ways that may not necessarily mean getting your defense to 90% via stats. Let me give you an example: Vanguard tanks have a feat called "Combat Balance"; with this feat, if the fighter has Deflect, Crit Avoid, and Awareness at equal ratings, whenever you are not blocking decrease damage taken by up to 10%. This effect decreases the farther apart the ratings. (What remains to be seen in the new system is whether or not this is an additive or multiplicative effect, and when in the order of operations this takes effect.) In this particular scenario, it may be better to pull stats from defense and drop your defense down to 80% and use Combat Balance to make up that final 10% (if testing shows that it is additive). This would also allow you to allocate stat points to your other defensive stats mitigating more types of damage. You also have to consider more types defense boosting/damage reduction abilities, effects, and items. What is the effect of something like Angel of Protection whose Protective Ward grants the summoner 5% damage reduction, or Hell's Heel Clackers that results in you taking 3% less damage? Does it make sense to lower your base defense and boost it through the companion enhancement effect of fortification by 2,000? That is 2,000 in stats that you can move around to either another defensive stat or an offensive stat (your *choice*).

    Since we can't max all of our stats in either defense or offense, it really destroys the concept of the "meta" because you can no longer say, "Max these stats". The closest you can come to a "meta" is to say, if you are a tank, try to take less damage; if you are DPS, try to do more damage; if you are a healer, try to heal damage. After that, how you get there is no longer set in stone because from a practical standpoint (though not technically a mathematical standpoint) there are an infinite number of combinations to get to that desired effect(s) of taking less damage, dealing more damage, and/or healing more damage.

    This is a really simple combat system that results in an incredibly rich, robust, and complex structure.

    Hopefully, this video will give you some idea of why I think this new system is completely open and is now choice driven rather than meta driven; rather than friends or not friends, think of it in terms of stat emphasis vs stat non-emphasis (and then consider each item or effect in the game as either stat emphasis or stat non-emphasis). Mind you the example in the video is with only 6 people (mathematically, they would be called vertices and their connections/non-connections are called edges) whereas in Neverwinter we literally have hundreds of vertices in this new combat system.





    This brings us to the second question:
    #2) Is 90% defense game breaking? You seem to think it is, I don't. You argue that the closer you get the 90% cap, the more pronounced the effect becomes making you less reliant on other defensive stats. I would say, as demonstrated above, that there are multiple ways to get to that 90% cap and not simply via dumping points into your defensive stats so that isn't necessarily a "meta" creating condition. I would also argue that approaching a 90% defense caps has exponentially increased benefits, it also poses exponentially increased risks. One of the things that No Worries has made perfectly clear is that there will be more and different types of damage in the game such as bosses that automatically gain combat advantage. I have no reason to believe that they will just stop there. What happens to the character that puts all their eggs in the proverbial "defense" basket, and they come across a mob that has equipped a Dread Enchant that strips you of 3,000 defense or they have an Armor Break effect with one of their powers that strips you of another 2,000 defense? That tank sitting at 90% defense that just suddenly lost 10% of his defense (assuming 50K item level) isn't taking 10% more damage, they are now taking 100% more *base* damage--and those multipliers from combat advantage and crit strike that he ignored because he went completely into defense *each* becomes twice as effective which means the cumulative effect of the damage taken skyrockets. That once invincible tank suddenly becomes really pretty freaking fragile--because of the *choices* they made following some false hand wringing "meta".

    Call me naive, but I don't think situationally fragile tanks are especially game breaking.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    @rubytrue
    If you finally get the math, just realize that there is always just one most efficient way - even in the new system.
    rubytrue said:

    Let me give you an example: Vanguard tanks have a feat called "Combat Balance"; with this feat, if the fighter has Deflect, Crit Avoid, and Awareness at equal ratings, whenever you are not blocking decrease damage taken by up to 10%. This effect decreases the farther apart the ratings. (What remains to be seen in the new system is whether or not this is an additive or multiplicative effect, and when in the order of operations this takes effect.) In this particular scenario, it may be better to pull stats from defense and drop your defense down to 80% and use Combat Balance to make up that final 10% (if testing shows that it is additive).

    It never will. It always will be better to ballance those 3 stats between themselves instead of pulling something out of defence.
    rubytrue said:


    This would also allow you to allocate stat points to your other defensive stats mitigating more types of damage.

    You can allocate whatever you want wherever you want, but if it is lowering your defence, you are losing efficiency.
    rubytrue said:


    You also have to consider more types defense boosting/damage reduction abilities, effects, and items. What is the effect of something like Angel of Protection whose Protective Ward grants the summoner 5% damage reduction, or Hell's Heel Clackers that results in you taking 3% less damage? Does it make sense to lower your base defense and boost it through the companion enhancement effect of fortification by 2,000? That is 2,000 in stats that you can move around to either another defensive stat or an offensive stat (your *choice*).

    If you want to move from "the result is good and predictable" to "the result is random, so sometimes even bad", be my guest.
    rubytrue said:


    Since we can't max all of our stats in either defense or offense, it really destroys the concept of the "meta" because you can no longer say, "Max these stats".

    False: the meta is still "choose the most efficient way". Now you do not have stats spare to throw to the less efficient paths.
    rubytrue said:


    After that, how you get there is no longer set in stone because from a practical standpoint (though not technically a mathematical standpoint) there are an infinite number of combinations to get to that desired effect(s) of taking less damage, dealing more damage, and/or healing more damage.

    False. There is one efficient way - every other is significantly inferior.
    rubytrue said:


    This is a really simple combat system that results in an incredibly rich, robust, and complex structure.

    IF you do not care about efficiency - nothing changed here.
    rubytrue said:


    This brings us to the second question:
    #2) Is 90% defense game breaking? You seem to think it is, I don't.

    Here I would like to clarify something: I think it is bad idea that it can play 5x bigger role then other defensive stats which completely eliminates diversity and reasonable choices.
    rubytrue said:


    You argue that the closer you get the 90% cap, the more pronounced the effect becomes making you less reliant on other defensive stats.

    Well, first and foremost I say: if you can invest to defence, it is much better choice than investing to any other def stat.
    rubytrue said:


    I would also argue that approaching a 90% defense caps has exponentially increased benefits, it also poses exponentially increased risks. One of the things that No Worries has made perfectly clear is that there will be more and different types of damage in the game such as bosses that automatically gain combat advantage.

    That change actually does not affect the concept of defence being the most effective defensive attribute.
    rubytrue said:


    I have no reason to believe that they will just stop there. What happens to the character that puts all their eggs in the proverbial "defense" basket, and they come across a mob that has equipped a Dread Enchant that strips you of 3,000 defense or they have an Armor Break effect with one of their powers that strips you of another 2,000 defense?
    That tank sitting at 90% defense that just suddenly lost 10% of his defense (assuming 50K item level) isn't taking 10% more damage, they are now taking 100% more *base* damage--and those multipliers from combat advantage and crit strike that he ignored because he went completely into defense *each* becomes twice as effective which means the cumulative effect of the damage taken skyrockets. That once invincible tank suddenly becomes really pretty freaking fragile--because of the *choices* they made following some false hand wringing "meta".

    The thing is, if that would be a deadly scenario, it would be deadly scenario even if you put 0 to defence and every other def stat to max. (which is impossible)
    rubytrue said:


    Call me naive, but I don't think situationally fragile tanks are especially game breaking.

    And that is exactly why you should put everything you can to defence - so you are not situatinally fragile.
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    @rubytrue
    If you finally get the math, just realize that there is always just one most efficient way - even in the new system.

    rubytrue said:

    Let me give you an example: Vanguard tanks have a feat called "Combat Balance"; with this feat, if the fighter has Deflect, Crit Avoid, and Awareness at equal ratings, whenever you are not blocking decrease damage taken by up to 10%. This effect decreases the farther apart the ratings. (What remains to be seen in the new system is whether or not this is an additive or multiplicative effect, and when in the order of operations this takes effect.) In this particular scenario, it may be better to pull stats from defense and drop your defense down to 80% and use Combat Balance to make up that final 10% (if testing shows that it is additive).

    It never will. It always will be better to ballance those 3 stats between themselves instead of pulling something out of defence.
    rubytrue said:


    This would also allow you to allocate stat points to your other defensive stats mitigating more types of damage.

    You can allocate whatever you want wherever you want, but if it is lowering your defence, you are losing efficiency.
    rubytrue said:


    You also have to consider more types defense boosting/damage reduction abilities, effects, and items. What is the effect of something like Angel of Protection whose Protective Ward grants the summoner 5% damage reduction, or Hell's Heel Clackers that results in you taking 3% less damage? Does it make sense to lower your base defense and boost it through the companion enhancement effect of fortification by 2,000? That is 2,000 in stats that you can move around to either another defensive stat or an offensive stat (your *choice*).

    If you want to move from "the result is good and predictable" to "the result is random, so sometimes even bad", be my guest.
    rubytrue said:


    Since we can't max all of our stats in either defense or offense, it really destroys the concept of the "meta" because you can no longer say, "Max these stats".

    False: the meta is still "choose the most efficient way". Now you do not have stats spare to throw to the less efficient paths.
    rubytrue said:


    After that, how you get there is no longer set in stone because from a practical standpoint (though not technically a mathematical standpoint) there are an infinite number of combinations to get to that desired effect(s) of taking less damage, dealing more damage, and/or healing more damage.

    False. There is one efficient way - every other is significantly inferior.
    rubytrue said:


    This is a really simple combat system that results in an incredibly rich, robust, and complex structure.

    IF you do not care about efficiency - nothing changed here.
    rubytrue said:


    This brings us to the second question:
    #2) Is 90% defense game breaking? You seem to think it is, I don't.

    Here I would like to clarify something: I think it is bad idea that it can play 5x bigger role then other defensive stats which completely eliminates diversity and reasonable choices.
    rubytrue said:


    You argue that the closer you get the 90% cap, the more pronounced the effect becomes making you less reliant on other defensive stats.

    Well, first and foremost I say: if you can invest to defence, it is much better choice than investing to any other def stat.
    rubytrue said:


    I would also argue that approaching a 90% defense caps has exponentially increased benefits, it also poses exponentially increased risks. One of the things that No Worries has made perfectly clear is that there will be more and different types of damage in the game such as bosses that automatically gain combat advantage.

    That change actually does not affect the concept of defence being the most effective defensive attribute.
    rubytrue said:


    I have no reason to believe that they will just stop there. What happens to the character that puts all their eggs in the proverbial "defense" basket, and they come across a mob that has equipped a Dread Enchant that strips you of 3,000 defense or they have an Armor Break effect with one of their powers that strips you of another 2,000 defense?
    That tank sitting at 90% defense that just suddenly lost 10% of his defense (assuming 50K item level) isn't taking 10% more damage, they are now taking 100% more *base* damage--and those multipliers from combat advantage and crit strike that he ignored because he went completely into defense *each* becomes twice as effective which means the cumulative effect of the damage taken skyrockets. That once invincible tank suddenly becomes really pretty freaking fragile--because of the *choices* they made following some false hand wringing "meta".

    The thing is, if that would be a deadly scenario, it would be deadly scenario even if you put 0 to defence and every other def stat to max. (which is impossible)
    rubytrue said:


    Call me naive, but I don't think situationally fragile tanks are especially game breaking.

    And that is exactly why you should put everything you can to defence - so you are not situatinally fragile.
    At this point, I don't know if you are simply being a troll or if you are *really* that obtuse. Play the game your way; its your *choice*; when you finally realize how wrong you are, I will be the guy selling you the items you need in the AH.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    I would like to know if Feats and Class Features are going to receive a pass-over?

    For some classes, the BiS feats don't add direct magnitude damage to powers. For other classes they do. Since all powers were increased to 130% of old magnitudes, magnitude-adding feats will suffer. Some paragons are dependent on this feat type in their class balancing.


    Example: Dreadnought Fighter in any Boss Fight will use the 'Momentum' class feature and the 'Weight of Vengeance' Feat.

    Momentum adds 300 magnitude to Bull Charge encounter.
    Weight of Vengeance adds 380 magnitude to Anvil of Doom encounter.

    Since these amounts were not also multiplied by 1.30 , like the encounters, a Dreadnought will lose 204 magnitude every 12 seconds (the encounter recharge length).

    By contrast, classes that use no direct magnitude boosts in their feats will lose nothing.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    @rubytrue Sure.:D But that would require a major overhaul of this major overhaul. If you want some diversity, you offer a choice of 1 sure-fire small bonus versus 1 occasional big benefit - in such cases there is a room for a discussion what might be good in which situation. However, we are offered 1 sure-fire humongous benefit versus some small bonus triggered only under some circumstances.

    We are in the situation: You have 1 dollar. You can give it to me and I will give you hand to hand 5 dollars back - or, you can spend that dollar buying this lottery ticket with a chance of winning top prize 50 cents. Sure, get that ticket if you want. But it is not the most efficient way how to deal with your money.
  • burtrburtr Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    Why are you guys arguing math here? Having been educated and worked as an engineer, I'd rather not argue about numbers in a game anyway. The majority of mmo players don't really care about what your equations are... they just want something simple that they can understand. I will make it simple. I'm sure that with many more AD's and real money... along with endless game hours... I can reach the kind of gameplay that I am used to now. The question is "why should I have to"?

    I read somewhere... someone mentioned that this new combat system overhaul has been in the works for a year now. Really? So, Mod 16 came out on Feb 19, 2019. Basically, this new system was being pushed forward less than a year after Mod 16 upended everything from before. Why? When's the next major overhaul going to start after this one goes live? Just long enough for everyone to waste enough time and money?

    From my experience with in the real world of "jobs", I have found that, with the exception of a few, everyone tries to justify their job. For example, a janitor. If everyone keeps the place spotless, then they won't need a janitor... hence, he's out of a job... but, if he can come up with "work" that will justify being kept on the payroll, he might survive. Maybe clog a few toilets when nobody's looking? Or argue that there's always dust underneath the flower pots?

    Again, I'm sure that many of us who are already near or at endgame right now can do just as well in this new system. My question remains... why should we have to? I'm sure there will be just as many players left behind on the bottom rung in this new system just like every other past systems that has come and gone. The only difference is we'll have to spend more time and money repeatedly just to stay on top. Why?
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    @burtr
    Well, the question why the game gets its core changed is a good one. And if you briefly looked through the posts, someone mentioned that the new system brings variety to the game, while I do not agree with that conclusion - as the new system has even less reasonable choices than the previous had.

    On top of that, this system is not finished yet and seems to me to be already reaching EoL phase. On preview, people are at IL 50k. That means: to motivate players to grind for a piece of equipment there would have to be a) an amazing bonus b) at least 500increase of IL on that piece. - I can imagine that they will do one mod that will bring awesome bonuses on items, but 500IL increase on one piece... I can already hear them saying "we heard players asking for increasing of level cap"... After that... probably another rework.

    So, those reworks are most likely really just to do reworks. As you mentioned, to keep the things moving. Why to keep up with the changes? Well, that is up to each individual.
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    burtr said:

    Why are you guys arguing math here? Having been educated and worked as an engineer, I'd rather not argue about numbers in a game anyway. The majority of mmo players don't really care about what your equations are... they just want something simple that they can understand. I will make it simple. I'm sure that with many more AD's and real money... along with endless game hours... I can reach the kind of gameplay that I am used to now. The question is "why should I have to"?

    I read somewhere... someone mentioned that this new combat system overhaul has been in the works for a year now. Really? So, Mod 16 came out on Feb 19, 2019. Basically, this new system was being pushed forward less than a year after Mod 16 upended everything from before. Why? When's the next major overhaul going to start after this one goes live? Just long enough for everyone to waste enough time and money?

    From my experience with in the real world of "jobs", I have found that, with the exception of a few, everyone tries to justify their job. For example, a janitor. If everyone keeps the place spotless, then they won't need a janitor... hence, he's out of a job... but, if he can come up with "work" that will justify being kept on the payroll, he might survive. Maybe clog a few toilets when nobody's looking? Or argue that there's always dust underneath the flower pots?

    Again, I'm sure that many of us who are already near or at endgame right now can do just as well in this new system. My question remains... why should we have to? I'm sure there will be just as many players left behind on the bottom rung in this new system just like every other past systems that has come and gone. The only difference is we'll have to spend more time and money repeatedly just to stay on top. Why?

    @burtr You can port your character over to preview, and functionally, it will perform the same as it does on live (outside of very niche Xuna and Chicken builds). The orange and yellow floaty numbers will be (much) smaller, and people seem to be freaking out over that, but if you can get past that, the mobs are getting killed just as fast, if not faster as they are on live (at least in my experience). (The way that scaling works, you won't be able to solo dungeons like you currently can, and if you do, it will take a *lot* longer, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing IMO.)

    Where you are going to wind up spending a lot of AD and/or real world money is if you fall into the trap thinking that there is "one best way" to build a character. Because there isn't. And that is what people aren't able to understand. In the old system, you would simply cap your stats and then add more power--and that was the meta in a nutshell. You can no longer cap all your stats, and for all intents and purposes, power as we knew it, no longer exists in the game; "Power" as it is now called is capped, and functionally, it acts the same way as Armor Penetration does now.

    It is a vastly simplified combat system that is pretty straightforward, and it opens up a lot of possibilities for equally effective and efficient character builds that currently isn't possible in the present combat system.
  • igrejamasterigrejamaster Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    @noworries#8859 Is anyone already aware that the Forte coming from the dominance insignia is not working?
  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    rubytrue said:

    You can port your character over to preview, and functionally, it will perform the same as it does on live (outside of very niche Xuna and Chicken builds). The orange and yellow floaty numbers will be (much) smaller, and people seem to be freaking out over that, but if you can get past that, the mobs are getting killed just as fast, if not faster as they are on live (at least in my experience). (The way that scaling works, you won't be able to solo dungeons like you currently can, and if you do, it will take a *lot* longer, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing IMO.)

    Where you are going to wind up spending a lot of AD and/or real world money is if you fall into the trap thinking that there is "one best way" to build a character. Because there isn't. And that is what people aren't able to understand. In the old system, you would simply cap your stats and then add more power--and that was the meta in a nutshell. You can no longer cap all your stats, and for all intents and purposes, power as we knew it, no longer exists in the game; "Power" as it is now called is capped, and functionally, it acts the same way as Armor Penetration does now.

    It is a vastly simplified combat system that is pretty straightforward, and it opens up a lot of possibilities for equally effective and efficient character builds that currently isn't possible in the present combat system.

    It is funny.

    Exacly the same words have been said by players in mod 6 and mod 16, just before they discovered how much money and time they need to invest for those " choices " you mention.

    If you want end game content you will build what is needed for the end game content.
    So if that means adding 150 k of health to your cleric, you will do so gladly , so people around you do not consider you a bother.
    You will take from other stats to achieve this goal.
    If you do not want to try it, then you can build a frail little sunflower that will get killed by one shot from a low mob in a dungeon.
    The clerics can not heal you that much anyway, duo to changes done aka divinity, we have to pick and choose who and when and there is no mindless bastion cast on people getting one shot any more.

    You can cap 2 stats to 90 %.
    The rest you ll have to be happy with 50 % . Dont mobs have 50 % as well?

    For 95 % of the players we already have capped power on preview, since this game was based on power on live.
    In order to " fix " that we ll have to exchange pretty much everything again.

    Maybe on preview you can get it for free. On live you can not.

    There for in order to get those items, mounts, insignias, pets, new gear and new echantments and new pet enchantments, you ll have to either sink in real money , or grind .

    The question still stands, what will be needed , to complete the end game content?

    Cos i can promise you, people will not drag you through dungeons constantly.

    They will get tired and stop inviting you since they can see there is no progress to development of your character, in order to do that dungeon or a trial.
    Why should they bother when you do not bother?
    So then you ll be stuck not doing end game content.
    This are the choices you are refering to.

    A tank without aggro is useless.
    Just like a cleric that can not build up divinity fast or does not do enough healing.
    Just like dps that can not do a lot of damage.
    If you can not pass a dps check , then there is no point in you doing that dungeon or a trial.

    I do not know if you remember, but there was a time when Tiamat was broken.
    No one except 1 % of top players could do it, however it was a freshly made zone so people tried anyway.
    It was a freaking disaster. And eventually people abandoned trying it. Why would they try it when you could not do it.
    Suddenly no one was doing Tiamat any more. People ignored it. Until devs got worried and tried fixing it since it had 0 visits.
    Same thing might happen new content again.
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    @rubytrue At least do not push your nonsense to clueless players. No, the new power is not equivalent to old ArPen - it does not stand out as the most important thing to invest your stats in for your damage output. Accuracy is now the most dominant part of damage dealing, far more important than power. edit: false, based on wrong assumption
    I do not even know what you mean by it.

    You are trying to push over and over again that the result is the same if you multiply a number by 1/10 or remove 1,9 multiplier, but it is not. The difference is staggering. There is one best way, but... just finally get that people do not freak about it! They do not care! That is your personal illusion about having reasonable choices, whatever. Equations behind is not what people care about. What they do care is that to reach the same experience as on the live server, they have to completely change everything on their chars.
    Sincerely, why the hell should I be required to change everything to gain the same experience as before? Does it make any sense?
    And, TBH, sometimes it is really impossible - you said that lesser floating numbers do not play any role if the play experience has not changed, but it has. For example: solo barb has bloodleter power, which heals him for the damage he dealt. There is freaking difference to be healed for 40K in the best scenario versus 200k in the worst. That is 5x difference if we took the most favourable condition to the new system.

    Yes, the new system is simple and pretty straightforward, but it does not bring any advantage or plethora of choices. The old system would be much more balanced than the new one if you just removed the bonding stones. Halve the stats players have to their disposal - and there you go. The previous core is much more balanced than the new atrocity. In it, there would be choices worth consideration. In the new one, the choices are freaking obvious.

    Gaining nothing beneficial except some bugfixes that were a year overdue... and forced to completely rebuild your char from the scratch. Genius.
    Post edited by rikitaki on
  • supmadbrosupmadbro Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    @rubytrue At least do not push your nonsense to clueless players. No, the new power is not equivalent to old ArPen - it does not stand out as the most important thing to invest your stats in for your damage output. Accuracy is now the most dominant part of damage dealing, far more important than power.

    Power is the most important dps stat to hit 90% in. Luckily that is extremely easy with forte. 90% power = 90% damage increase

    https://www.desmos.com/calculator/2y5apfexvh
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    @supmadbro ...lets assume one thing: before you try to put any point into anything, the combined ratings take you to roughly 33% starting point - which means, you have position with 33% power and 33% accuracy.

    Question: Would you rather multiply your damage by factor 190/133, while still having 6 out of nine attacks reduced to one third, or would it be better to keep base damage and get rid of the penalty?
    The first one is pushing power from 33% to 90%, the second one is pushing accuracy from 33% to 90%.

    If you say power, the result is roughly 25% smaller number to the accuracy way... (and that is even when raising the accuracy past 70% actually is not that good idea and does not bring that much benefit).


    edit: wee, the accuracy does not lower the deflect chance! I did not know that, OK!
    Post edited by rikitaki on
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    So, according to the sliders in that tool... (I like sliders)
    If we skip the critical which requires double the investments, the most effective stat to invest in is the one that lags behind the power the most. (Assuming the power has more than 10% head start.) (eg, from the point Power80/Accu50, it is better 10% investment if you do Power80/Accu60 compared to Power90/Accu50)
    If you can maintain CA, it has a slight priority to Accu (again, up till being 10% ahead).

    Well, I think this kind of underlines that there still is one best way to approach it - which is even written in that sheet. =)
    (And, to be precise, Power is not the most important stat to invest in under all possible conditions. To top that, it is not even the best choice under most conditions the DPS char will face.)
    While +% Power companion would most likely be ideal for tank damage output, for dps char it is better to invest to +% accuracy one (to be precise, when the forte already assured that your power has that 10+% head start)

    This brings us a conclusion, that forte combination might actually have a hierarchy "Power+CA"(if CA can be maintained), "Power+Accu", "Power+Crit" - this might shoot up depending on the real life impact of the effects triggered on crit, with notably inferior "Power+Crit severity" in the tail.

    I admit that in the dps output I was working on a wrong assumption (that accuracy affects deflect chance), which lead me to funnier results than the reality provides. However, even then the "there is one best and a lot of inferior approaches" statement holds.
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    So, according to the sliders in that tool... (I like sliders)
    If we skip the critical which requires double the investments, the most effective stat to invest in is the one that lags behind the power the most. (Assuming the power has more than 10% head start.) (eg, from the point Power80/Accu50, it is better 10% investment if you do Power80/Accu60 compared to Power90/Accu50)
    If you can maintain CA, it has a slight priority to Accu (again, up till being 10% ahead).

    Well, I think this kind of underlines that there still is one best way to approach it - which is even written in that sheet. =)
    (And, to be precise, Power is not the most important stat to invest in under all possible conditions. To top that, it is not even the best choice under most conditions the DPS char will face.)
    While +% Power companion would most likely be ideal for tank damage output, for dps char it is better to invest to +% accuracy one (to be precise, when the forte already assured that your power has that 10+% head start)

    This brings us a conclusion, that forte combination might actually have a hierarchy "Power+CA"(if CA can be maintained), "Power+Accu", "Power+Crit" - this might shoot up depending on the real life impact of the effects triggered on crit, with notably inferior "Power+Crit severity" in the tail.

    I admit that in the dps output I was working on a wrong assumption (that accuracy affects deflect chance), which lead me to funnier results than the reality provides. However, even then the "there is one best and a lot of inferior approaches" statement holds.




    You're almost there....

    You see, as I've been saying all along, there are multiple paths to get where you want to be.

    It is via stats? Is it via companion bonuses? Is it via companion damage effects? Is it via companion enhancements? Is it via insignias? Is it via insignia bonuses? Is it via gear proc effects? Is it via class feats/features effects? Is it via powers? Is it via potions? Is it via guild food? Is it via...?

    Because when any one of these things is in effect, when you can't cap your all your stats, the stat(s) that are affected result in another stat getting more benefit from an any other additional effect because each stat has diminishing returns the closer you get to the cap (see image below for relative diminishing returns).

    In the old combat system, everyone would cap their stats and then plow everything into power. You can't do that anymore.

    There is no longer only one right way to build a character.

    The meta is dead.


  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    rubytrue said:



    The new Combat System, in overly simplified terms, is nothing more than two different multiplier sets (sets that modify Weapon Damage and Hit Points) battling it out.

    The reason why prior Combat Systems led to really limited builds is because the multiplier sets impacted power which in turn modified base weapon damage (in overly simplified terms).

    What people haven't wrapped their heads around yet, is that power, as we are used to thinking of it as a game mechanic, is no longer part of the game. We still have this thing, this offensive stat that is called "Power", but it really isn't power in the same sense that you are used to thinking about it. "Power" in the new combat system is functionally equivalent to what we currently consider Armor Penetration; that is why it is now a capped stat. People like the word "Power" so the dev team renamed Armor Penetration "Power" to keep the player base from completely freaking out because the entire purpose of the grind was to maximize power and its subsequent multipliers. Any game or combat system that focuses on power and power multipliers will inevitably lead to "Power creep" and a narrowing of viable play choices resulting in a focus on Min/Max builds.

    You take Power (as we've traditionally come to know it) out of the game, and you've solved that *fundamental* problem of power creep and the subsequent issue of Min/Max builds and you completely open up the possibility of wholly varied and equally viable builds--because of that Commutative Property of Multiplication.

    If it makes you feel any better, remnants of what we used to consider "Power" are still in the game but it is now called "Total Item Level" because that is now the base multiplier for both weapon damage (the damage you can do) and hit points (the damage you can take). Total Item Level, in this sense, is really an expanded concept of power since it impact both offensive and defensive stats. Personally, I think Total Item Level is a rather blase nomenclature; I think something along the lines of Aura Level is more reflective of how it plays out in the game, but Total Item Level is easier to understand, especially in a new combat system that has some underlying assumptions that people don't quite comprehend yet.

    I also have to comment on this because somehow I've skipped this part before - The entirety of this comment is basically untrue. The premise of the formulae for dealing damage is still rather similar and didn't really change much. You can get same results on ACT and parse out data... I have no idea where does the "Power is the new Arpen" agenda comes from, but I find it interestingly untrue.

    Power as a concept still exists and directly affects the Damage itself. Given that these two are interchanged and still preserve their original form, I will assume that Arpen was simply removed as a concept, rather than transfigured into the new "Power". Though, I can't confirm nor deny this, I just find it unlikely.

    The so called Power Creep still exists, albeit will be seen through the Item Level in comparison to the Items & Pets used rather than a centralized/singular equip power. In the previous system harder & better the zones were, higher/better their stats were to fill, essentially making you to upgrade solely once you get to the new content, if you so chose. And, yes, there were questions what should be upgraded more. The Item Level is the new Power Creep, and other stats to some lesser extent. Meaning, that you have more issues now than before, because you have more Power Creep-esque issues than before. As such, the new system is flawed in its inception.


    Essentially, with the new system the argument that Power Creep will be destroyed holds no relevance, since nothing will be changed at all because the overall effectiveness simply dispersed away from Power as a stat onto other stats that will essentially make it harder to manage properly, and more so for each and every person who runs multiple end-game toons. I understand that End-Game means little to you, but if you want to be as objective as possible - the EndGame should, in fact, mean a lot to you since that's the ultimate goal of each and every player (or, at least the majority of players).
    Once these caps are reached through itemization and builds by introducing higher Item Level items and Companions, the power creep will be felt more than before meaning that your argument is invalid in such regards since it doesn't really promise nor gives more options to choose from. The builds will be more or less hardlocked and if Cryptic chooses to make a new & higher IL gear in the future update that has drastically different stats, you will be at a serious disadvantage in upgrading virtually everything that you own solely for the sake to remain relevant and competetive enough. Unless you can get Mythic pets/companions dropping from the Lootboxes, there is no way to really manage builds without investing a lot of time & resources without ever having a solid ground to stick with the said changes.

    Previous Power Creep wasn't really a thing that was important since we've had a system that reduces power ever so slightly based on the power you've attained, and it becomes less and less effective the more you had. After 300k (and even less) it was not really smart to invest in Power at all. Effectievly, this makes the Power itself practically useless once you reach 240k Power or so, and thus makes it far more useful to seek Critical Severity even though there was only 50% Critical Strike chance.

    The only difference is the focusing point for new stats, and these should not be mistaken for "free choice" because they are essentially not that, unless we get a myriad of items and companions that can effectively fit a role with very slight differences, to no differences at all! (other than a cosmetic change...maybe). Then it becomes somewhat a free choice, but otherwise the overall effectiveness befalls stats other than Power in the new meta.

    For this system to work, there should be far better Companion power choices that will allow for any person to max out at least three stats effectievly, which are fundamentally important for the game's current mechanics.


    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    @rubytrue You still do not get that inability to cap stat does not mean a balanced system!

    If you would remove similar amount of stats from the previous system, it would be more balanced. Because weight of each stat was closer. That was what I was trying to explain to you on defence - previously, in a CA situation, if you capped defence and had 0 in awareness, you took the same amount of damage as in a reversed case. Now, in capped defence, you get 19% of the capped awareness scenario. 5x less for the same amount of invested points. That is why there is no point to think about other stats if you have not solved your def yet. Compared to def, nothing matters.

    You say that there are many ways to reach the sweet spot in the new system, but there are not. They lead astray. And fundamentally, compared to the previous one, the new system is build to REMOVE CHOICES. There is forte that you cannot fight against. The start-point is skewed so much that you lose 20% of effective damage increase if you choose to invest your point to the wrong path. And as @c1k4ml3kc3 correctly pointed out, the IL plays even bigger role than shuffling your stats here and there.

    You say that the inability to cap all stats makes REASONABLE choices possible. It makes MORE choices possible - yes, but they are not reasonable DUE to the new system. The new system has stiff and inflexible core.
    Post edited by rikitaki on
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    One last thing you should think about before praising phrases "META is dead". "META is dead" in our case means that it just shifted. If there was no META, no matter what you do, the result would be the same. That is not our case - but more importantly, such state is fundamentally undesirable in a game like this.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,116 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    There will always be a meta. In all the games 1% of people thinks as themselves and have initiative to try new things, test or simply "play something they like" and the other 99% just follow those players.

    Since internet is a thing this only got worse.

    In this new system there will be a meta once the things are stabilished, tested and the numbers crunched. The problem is that is more complex to balance things to follow this new meta. And will be harder to "copy" a build if you dont have the 100% of the items, boons etc. of that build.

    Also a minor variation or a introduction fo new things (boons, equip, companions, etc.) can make you change lots of pieces if you want to be "perfect" and thats not something everyone can do.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
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  • elderislt#1066 elderislt Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    > @arazith07 said:
    > Weapon damage was just moved to be based on TiL, so those weapon damage will use the base damage derived from TiL.

    Still better have 3.8 on accuracy or another important stat, becose 10 % shanse do max 5k dmg just not wortit
    BABY ZARIEL.... 270k base HUNTER
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,211 Arc User

    > @arazith07 said:

    > Weapon damage was just moved to be based on TiL, so those weapon damage will use the base damage derived from TiL.



    Still better have 3.8 on accuracy or another important stat, becose 10 % shanse do max 5k dmg just not wortit

    This was in response to someone asking about how weapon enchantments work now that weapons no longer have weapon damage.
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