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  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,211 Arc User

    arazith07 said:


    Most players will do this, no matter what the system. They will use to their advantage no matter what to min/max. The fact that it exists doesn't make the system broken. It's more to what extent. Aside from a few percentage points, and maybe more with mythic mount collars, this really isn't that big of an issue.

    I'm sorry, I don't follow.

    Or perhaps you don't follow my logic

    Logically, a lower item level player should not do more damage than a higher item level player

    If scaling worked properly, they would do similar damage with the higher item level player perhaps doing slightly more damage than the lower TIL player.

    Currently this is NOT the case

    Characters with lower TIL in scaled content always have an advantage against charactetrs with higher TIL. Very often on preview, high TIL characters are out DPSed by brand new players. High level tanks can't sustain the damage of low level tanks. This is because of how the percentages work.

    This is what is broken. It's systematically flawed because no one thought it through.

    Scaling is broken on live
    Scaling is broken on preview

    It's close on preview, but it's still broken.

    Why would you ever suspect that a TIL 6,000 player should out-DPS a TIL 51,000 player in a scaled 6K TIL dungeon is good for business?

    You're right I don't follow your logic. How is even 5% difference in all your stats significantly outperforming someone else who has the same damage. We are talking about maybe 5%, that is not game breaking. Aside from this, higher TiL players are more likely to have companions and gear bonuses that far outstrip those of lower ones. A 6k TiL player will not have 7.5% x 5 companions to whatever rating, nor will their gear equip bonus be as high, since the higher item level gear tends to have larger percents on them. The main exception to this are mount collars, where you really don't gain much in scaled content aside from whatever measly bonus you get from them. Those I agree should be more scaling friendly.
  • pyramidhead#8477 pyramidhead Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    this game will lose the few people who have remained here since mod 16 changes
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,116 Arc User
    edited January 21



    Why would you ever suspect that a TIL 6,000 player should out-DPS a TIL 51,000 player in a scaled 6K TIL dungeon is good for business?

    I agree with you.

    But we are only talking in theory, maybe lower item level players arent able to cap stats like a 50k one, they dont have the companions gear, etc that gives % to other stats. The "other contributions" is much harder for a low geared player.

    But I suspect that in mid game dungeons, this can be possible.

    What I am most surprised is that we are scalled in the newest dungeon? there is really a cap? That really have zero sense.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
  • elderislt#1066 elderislt Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    > @madrigal#2900 said:
    > is it fit to be released now?..
    > no.
    > but this is the path they always take.
    > we all basically get used as guinea pigs on live to test the content and notice the bugs they dont know about or didnt listen to when players reported them previously in the test server.
    >
    > over the next few weeks
    > you will be playing and there will be sudden notifications that the server will be going down in xx minutes for an emergency patch, which could take any number of hours.
    >
    > as new patches and 'fixes' are introduced they will have detrimental effects on existing code, and more emergency patching will be needed. the problem with 'fixes' is they should be temporary while an issue is properly resolved, however this company is content to look at fixes as a permanent solution (click on a dungeon gate and those white circles your team stand in are one example of a temporary fix that has been left for so long that its basically permanent now) and move on.
    >
    > it gets left to players to figure out 'workarounds' for issues, find alternative solutions so we can have some semblage of a fluid game and how to do these workarounds gets passed around by word of mouth.
    >
    > this all happens because they work to a roadmap that has rigid dates, everything has to be done on certain dates or you end up with one rework or a new mod crashing into the next one, so regardless of if its fit to be released as it is..it gets released anyway.
    > its a business, it exists to make money, it will always put out content thats not ready but has arrived at a deadline and then they try to resolve issues as they arise, while forging ahead with the next part of the roadmap and announcing exciting new upcoming changes some of which wont ever materialise (new class at the end of the year post mod 17)
    >
    > they dont work with us as players, they say they listen to us , but when they say things like 'you asked for an overhaul of the combat system' i look back through a years posts and i cant see any majority of posts or even a single post requesting it...so who are the people they seem to be listening to because i cant find them, no one i talk to says 'oh yeah it was me', but then its easy to push stuff at us and claim we wanted it.
    >
    > it is what it is, and its not going to change while they have a model that brings in revenue...if you dont like something and quit , well one person is nothing to them ..after mod 16 a huge portion of the player base left, it didnt phase them one iota... so if you imagine they give a damn about you or your concerns or contributions - think again.
    >
    > i just hope there are less issues and less people leave than with the last game overhaul. for me its demoralizing when friends you have made and played with over years, just up and quit because they find their character suddenly nerfed or unplayable.
    >
    > i hope for the best, but it often smashed headfirst into cryptics reality.

    You will see how in future cryptic un cap power:D and again made enchant 2x stat :D it will be like mod 16 :disappointed:
    BABY ZARIEL.... 270k base HUNTER
  • supmadbrosupmadbro Member Posts: 28 Arc User


    BIS? You mean for the AP gain? Definitely not for ranger. Perhaps for some classes though hmmm. This is an interesting idea actually. Yes all gear should be obtainable. I'm surprised they are no longer in the seals store.

    Yeah not ranger, but any dps class with a good aoe daily they will be very strong on, I mean 30 * 500 = 1500 ap (15 extra dailies) in the new dungeon is BiS for sure on warlock and rogue. On the scoreboard you can see that most dps kill around 400-600 mobs in the new dungeon.


    Low item lvl means low base dmg, and yea primal shoos not will be bis becose of wat.

    You're scaled to 51k anyway :smile:
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    I would take a look at the wave of posts coming in about the game. Lost of first timers wondering why the game is broken and how it’s no longer fun.
    These are not niche or end gamers, they are your base. And they are so mad they made an account to tell you.
    You have a flawed product that’s going to push players away instead of building a strong following. Even the die hards and apologists are going to drop this game soon.
    You said players would be at the same place they were before the new mod. This is blatantly untrue. The loss of bindings alone makes Alts prohibitive to level.
    People feel powerless, and that’s not fun.
    You have to fix or you’ll hemorrhage players more than mod 16.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 485 Arc User
    edited January 22
    The only thing that has moved me so far is how the community itself sabotages the game they like. A reinforce cost 36k 3 days ago, now in full double professions is costing 120k. Seriously, what's going on?
    Post edited by admiralwarlord#3792 on
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User

    The only thing that has moved me so far is how the community itself sabotages the game they like. A reinforce cost 36k 3 days ago, now in full double professions is costing 120k. Seriously, what's going on?

    People are gaming the economy. There was a windfall of ad since Bondings didn't have a variant of Choice pack that matched the bound status of the Bonding that was turned in. No one in their right mind would trade an unbound item for a bound one when an option that has value to others is available (e.g. AD). With the sudden influx of AD, the people who stocked up on Bonding Runestone for this vary moment bought a bunch of items and are trying to resell them to get even more profit. I suspect some of this is either from botters or very unethical people.

    Another result of the windfall of AD is the ZAX backlog of Zen orders is over 50 million zen. This resulted in people able to take advantage that it will take players probably at least 2.5 - 3.5 months at the usual rate to get Zen, to sell items like pres wards at 100% profit margins (even w/o discounts or coupons). This results in selling zen even less desirable as players can make 2x as much AD buying preswards and selling them on the AH than selling Zen on the ZAX. This leads me to believe that orders currently placed may take upwards of 3-5 months to fulfill (I wouldn't be surprised at 6 months). This results in a situation were people will further exploit that backlog to make even higher profit margins from the ZAX or from buying Zen items, and eventually the wait time could reach a year.

    I think the devs really need to address the issue of the ZAX, but increasing the cap on ZAX to 1000k ad per zen is not going to solved anything, all it will do is shuffle the wait line, which is all that happened the last time the cap was raised from 500 to 750 ad/zen. I believe at least for a short time, an option to buy zen for 1000k ad per zen w/o waiting would be a good option, maybe with a 2-5k zen limit per month per account. This would be a very big ad sink in the game and people would mostly buy VIP and Wards for themselves, instead of paying 100% more on the AH, they would pay 50% more through this option.

    @noworries#8859 @cwhitesidedev#9752

  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,116 Arc User
    There is a lot of AD in the game now, but I think people didnt realize that Random queues are harder atm and generating new AD wont be so easy for lot of people.

    And Upgrading Companions is cheaper with AD than tokens (assuming you dont have zen). This can be a good AD sink, maybe not enough to invert the tendency but who knows.

    Still something can be done like put preservation wards in bazaar.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 485 Arc User

    There is a lot of AD in the game now, but I think people didnt realize that Random queues are harder atm and generating new AD wont be so easy for lot of people.

    And Upgrading Companions is cheaper with AD than tokens (assuming you dont have zen). This can be a good AD sink, maybe not enough to invert the tendency but who knows.

    Still something can be done like put preservation wards in bazaar.

    I did just that, updated 5 companions to mythical. What's the point of having AD if all I want to invest is ultra-valued? Besides, everything I'm going to spend ad on wouldn't give me what the fellow bonuses gave me.

    Now I will take advantage of that I have a RAD reservation and forget about random dungeons and focus on winning my alt's equipment, because yesterday was a pain.
  • drago#9606 drago Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited January 23
    As others have said very articulately earlier, the re-work going live has exposed the problems that were pointed out before it was released. The scaling system will probably end up pretty good, but it's definitely broken as it stands.

    There's the obvious problem of mobs in some areas being unplayable. I went into Neverdeath with my level 35 Fighter and just got bored of being slaughtered in one of the quests whilst doing relatively little damage to the hard-hitting mobs. Could I have persevered and made it through in the end? Sure. Did I want to? No, not at all. Hopefully the upcoming hot-fix will at least alleviate that issue.

    The other is what was pointed out on the previous page. I've now regularly found that my 46k Wizard can barely, if at all, keep up in mid-level scaled content (E.g. Demo, Valindra) with dps players with mid-30k IL. Regardless of what's been stated, its very clear in practical terms that higher IL becomes a big penalty in lower scaled content, unless you can really optimise your % stats. Which is much harder to do at higher IL, and much more expensive. This is clearly wrong, and needs to be dealt with. Scaling should reduce the advantage of higher rated players, but not remove it completely or even reverse it in some cases.
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User

    There is a lot of AD in the game now, but I think people didnt realize that Random queues are harder atm and generating new AD wont be so easy for lot of people.

    And Upgrading Companions is cheaper with AD than tokens (assuming you dont have zen). This can be a good AD sink, maybe not enough to invert the tendency but who knows.

    Still something can be done like put preservation wards in bazaar.


    If Wards and VIP (without rank increase maybe) were in the bazaar or another store where they can be purchase w/ AD at a higher rate then going through the ZAX, say 1 mil for VIP, 100k ad for 10 wards), I'd be happy. Also, allow mounts to be upgraded optionally w/ AD instead of tokens (like companions), the prices on those things sky rocketed.

  • tyrheustyrheus Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    > @"noworries#8859" said:
    > While the other threads are meant to stay lean so that the feedback can be easily seen/heard. This thread is for posting thoughts/concerns/complaints/etc. that you don't want to be deleted. Posts in this thread will only be removed if they break the standard forum guidelines.
    >
    > Please use this thread for bigger/longer posts or posts that aren't direct feedback for one of the specific topics.

    The latest patch does nothing... This entire update entirely ruined the game for new players. Tried a lvl 25 quest cleanup with a lvl 55 toon and getting my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> kicked. My greater healing pots are healing almost nothing. Single trash Mob hits are clearing away a third of my hp per hit. And my hits do little tiny dents to trash mob hp.

    What are you guys / devs/ management thinking ? "Too many players on neverwinter, so let's chase away all the new players ?"

    Well, if so, mission accomplished. I'll check back in a week, but in it's current state the game is unplayable and unenjoyable. You guys really need to allow some sort of overlevel bonus perks to carry through for weaker builds / new players / solo play to be able to enjoy.

    Not everyone wants Reaper level difficulty, some come just to play casual questing and gameplay. Your update has killed that. :-(
  • kloudz#6121 kloudz Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited February 6
    Will bloodletter on barbarians get an increase in magnitude? It’s still the same as before previous changes (520 magnitude without feat) @noworries8859
  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 129 Arc User

    is it fit to be released now?..
    no.
    but this is the path they always take.
    we all basically get used as guinea pigs on live to test the content and notice the bugs they dont know about or didnt listen to when players reported them previously in the test server.

    over the next few weeks
    you will be playing and there will be sudden notifications that the server will be going down in xx minutes for an emergency patch, which could take any number of hours.

    as new patches and 'fixes' are introduced they will have detrimental effects on existing code, and more emergency patching will be needed. the problem with 'fixes' is they should be temporary while an issue is properly resolved, however this company is content to look at fixes as a permanent solution (click on a dungeon gate and those white circles your team stand in are one example of a temporary fix that has been left for so long that its basically permanent now) and move on.

    it gets left to players to figure out 'workarounds' for issues, find alternative solutions so we can have some semblage of a fluid game and how to do these workarounds gets passed around by word of mouth.

    this all happens because they work to a roadmap that has rigid dates, everything has to be done on certain dates or you end up with one rework or a new mod crashing into the next one, so regardless of if its fit to be released as it is..it gets released anyway.
    its a business, it exists to make money, it will always put out content thats not ready but has arrived at a deadline and then they try to resolve issues as they arise, while forging ahead with the next part of the roadmap and announcing exciting new upcoming changes some of which wont ever materialise (new class at the end of the year post mod 17)

    they dont work with us as players, they say they listen to us , but when they say things like 'you asked for an overhaul of the combat system' i look back through a years posts and i cant see any majority of posts or even a single post requesting it...so who are the people they seem to be listening to because i cant find them, no one i talk to says 'oh yeah it was me', but then its easy to push stuff at us and claim we wanted it.

    it is what it is, and its not going to change while they have a model that brings in revenue...if you dont like something and quit , well one person is nothing to them ..after mod 16 a huge portion of the player base left, it didnt phase them one iota... so if you imagine they give a damn about you or your concerns or contributions - think again.

    i just hope there are less issues and less people leave than with the last game overhaul. for me its demoralizing when friends you have made and played with over years, just up and quit because they find their character suddenly nerfed or unplayable.

    i hope for the best, but it often smashed headfirst into cryptics reality.

    I would like to put some points for your reflection:

    1- The reformulation of the system was requested, not exactly that way, but it was farted by several people.
    2- The team of devs that were working on the game of m18 and earlier was totally different from the current one, consider not using the history of the old team as a comparison parameter.
    3- The new team is much more committed to fixing bugs before the launches, including the reason for the delay of 1 week on the official date of the launch of the M20, so they are willing to change the dates of the Roadmap if necessary.
    4- It was true that we on the PC were 100% guinea pigs so that the game would be playable before launching on consoles, today I don't think this is a reality, maybe now we are 50% cobas, and this tends to decrease to 0% bearing in mind that the proposal of the new devs is to match the releases of PC and Consoles in some near future.

    I know that the history of cryptic is horrible, I have been playing for a few years and I have been able to follow closely, but we need to at least give a vote of confidence that this new team will do the right thing, as I am particularly approving all the changes especially when you analyzes these changes in the macro impact of the game and in the long term of the systems.

  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 129 Arc User
    edited February 26

    The only thing that has moved me so far is how the community itself sabotages the game they like. A reinforce cost 36k 3 days ago, now in full double professions is costing 120k. Seriously, what's going on?

    People are gaming the economy. There was a windfall of ad since Bondings didn't have a variant of Choice pack that matched the bound status of the Bonding that was turned in. No one in their right mind would trade an unbound item for a bound one when an option that has value to others is available (e.g. AD). With the sudden influx of AD, the people who stocked up on Bonding Runestone for this vary moment bought a bunch of items and are trying to resell them to get even more profit. I suspect some of this is either from botters or very unethical people.

    Another result of the windfall of AD is the ZAX backlog of Zen orders is over 50 million zen. This resulted in people able to take advantage that it will take players probably at least 2.5 - 3.5 months at the usual rate to get Zen, to sell items like pres wards at 100% profit margins (even w/o discounts or coupons). This results in selling zen even less desirable as players can make 2x as much AD buying preswards and selling them on the AH than selling Zen on the ZAX. This leads me to believe that orders currently placed may take upwards of 3-5 months to fulfill (I wouldn't be surprised at 6 months). This results in a situation were people will further exploit that backlog to make even higher profit margins from the ZAX or from buying Zen items, and eventually the wait time could reach a year.

    I think the devs really need to address the issue of the ZAX, but increasing the cap on ZAX to 1000k ad per zen is not going to solved anything, all it will do is shuffle the wait line, which is all that happened the last time the cap was raised from 500 to 750 ad/zen. I believe at least for a short time, an option to buy zen for 1000k ad per zen w/o waiting would be a good option, maybe with a 2-5k zen limit per month per account. This would be a very big ad sink in the game and people would mostly buy VIP and Wards for themselves, instead of paying 100% more on the AH, they would pay 50% more through this option.

    @noworries#8859 @cwhitesidedev#9752
    and I came to think of something different in that sense that could also work. imagine a new weekly "event" in the game. It would be the Zen Shop Weekly Rotation, where some items 1 or 2 of each category of the store would be available through AD (and the item would come bound to account), with value based on its value in Zen vs the value of Zen in ZAX, so if the value at ZAX increases in the future the event remains up to date. so every week we screen 1 or 2 items from each category added in the Weekly Zen Rotation, it would be a good sink for AD since the itnes would be bound. Thinking long term when the game market normalized, this weekly rotation would reduce the pay towin / pay to fast aspect of Neverwinter, making things more balanced, and as the items would be bound to account, I don't think there would be any need to impose purchase limits per week, or maybe necessary, this is something to think about calmly.
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    The casual aspect of the game is gone. It’s now a resource and time sink with a load of bugs and nerf nerf nerf.

    It’s really gone P2P.

    Waiting it out till VIP runs out.
    Hopefully there will be positive changes by then.

    As it is, no I can’t do the same content I did and my characters are all over the map.

    Oh well.
  • xwz#9002 xwz Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    Why should anybody even spend time trying to get good weapons (or speed it up by buying campaigns) if any effort we players put in the game will be wasted as soon as the next patch goes live?
    Developers are just wasting our time.
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    Mod16 was a real hit to what diversity we had. From there it became a battle for power and everyone went meta for one build for their class. Same powers, same rotation.

    This change is still the same. Everyone is working towards the same box for their build only this time we are scrambling to find any gear that will accomplish this. So it’s the same box but the bricks used to build it are different colors but fulfill the same purpose.

    Sure your seeing all sorts of companions, but that’s because folks are using what they have or can afford. It will eventually be at the same place with everyone using same comps.

    The current system is unsustainable and will need a complete overhaul.

    Progression sense is gone.

    We need the diversity and progression back.
  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 129 Arc User

    Mod16 was a real hit to what diversity we had. From there it became a battle for power and everyone went meta for one build for their class. Same powers, same rotation.


    This change is still the same. Everyone is working towards the same box for their build only this time we are scrambling to find any gear that will accomplish this. So it’s the same box but the bricks used to build it are different colors but fulfill the same purpose.


    Sure your seeing all sorts of companions, but that’s because folks are using what they have or can afford. It will eventually be at the same place with everyone using same comps.


    The current system is unsustainable and will need a complete overhaul.


    Progression sense is gone.


    We need the diversity and progression back.

    I agree with part of your comment, I also think that over time the game will try to standardize in builds and rotations, but it must be remembered that the changes are not over yet, the M 21 is still part of this project they are working on, so much can still change. I may be mistaken, but I believe that with this new percentage system (which in my opinion is far from perfect), devs have a more solid formula for dealing with changes without major impacts, and with the arrival of the class balance that they are starting maybe it can really be irrelevant if I use X rotation or Y rotation or Z and so on. We can see that they are always adjusting companions, buffing the weak and nerfing the strong so that they arrive on an equal footing, maybe that can happen. I see a lot of problems with the new system, but for me it is 20 times better than the old one, and I see a very good long-term potential for the game where in fact the balance is on a better path. Perhaps all of this is utopian? Yes, we will only know as time goes by unfortunately.

  • xavior44xavior44 Member Posts: 153 Arc User

    Mod16 was a real hit to what diversity we had. From there it became a battle for power and everyone went meta for one build for their class. Same powers, same rotation.


    This change is still the same. Everyone is working towards the same box for their build only this time we are scrambling to find any gear that will accomplish this. So it’s the same box but the bricks used to build it are different colors but fulfill the same purpose.


    Sure your seeing all sorts of companions, but that’s because folks are using what they have or can afford. It will eventually be at the same place with everyone using same comps.


    The current system is unsustainable and will need a complete overhaul.


    Progression sense is gone.


    We need the diversity and progression back.

    I could not agree more. We are trading sideways at this point. ANYTIME we do find a type of horizontal progression let alone vertical its getting nerfed. In 4 mods i can see a full rework again because the players found a way to advance.

    Its getting to the obvious, sad and pathetic point. We were told modules would have vertical progression while the smaller more consistent chapters would be horizontal. With the new combat system we should be seeing way more vertical because the powercreep is somewhat capped.Lies lies lies were literally the victims of backwards progression at this point.

    Some classes need a full overhaul to blend better with the new combat changes, some classes need major bug fixes, some gear needs major balancing/bug fixing(per class)

    All and all neverwinter from an endgame point of view is a disaster and IMHO is looking like Tera 2.0.
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