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  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,816 Arc User
    edited March 2020


    First of all, how many players do actually use and abuse this game element? I think it's ~250 players.
    Most community play as default settings and have no issues in game. So it's rather amusing how small group of player throw their tantrum here in forum once their advantage got slighly diminished.

    250? Almost everyone I know uses it. Yes, most of them are senior too.
    For those who had no problem, they would not seek an answer.
    For those who had problem especially "suddenly" in the "new" area back then would ask around and got an answer.
    For those who happened to see that in chat and tried, they said "oh man! This is way more comfortable to eyes".
    For those who had problem and could not get a solution, they quit.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • sundancewanderingwolfsundancewanderingwolf Member Posts: 84 Arc User

    Thank you for the responses and discussions everyone.

    Going to be looking at putting max FoV to 100 and will be experimenting a little bit with the maximum camera zoom settings. While I can't give an exact time frame of getting it out due to many variables, the goal would be to get this rolled out to PC quickly.

    THANK YOU!!! Seriously! I will miss the 120 but compromising allowing us to go up to 100 would be fair! I accept! :)
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 969 Arc User
    edited March 2020

    @hadestemplar#9918

    did you even bother to read what anyone in this thread has been complaining about? I'll give you a clue, it has something to do with motion sickness.



    In my very first post I acknowledged there was a tactical advantage to having a larger view. There is not a single person denying that. But I can also say all of the following.



    1. Since this game's inception (all 18 mods) players have been able to change their FoV. This means that it's not a case of making a new game, which is not accessible to players who get motion sickness on low FoVs, it is a case of taking a game which has been accessible for a very long period of time and removing that accessibility. People very much do have a right to complain.



    2. Nobody feels forced to change their FoV if they want to play on a lower FoV, the option exists to do so. This is purely about denying others the option to experience the game.



    3. In the post you responded to, I was simply pointing out how a game being action combat has nothing to do with its FoV. There are plenty of action combat games, even some MMOs (for example Albion online) which have a view that looks like an RTS.



    4. In PVE its possible to take away the advantage, when the situation calls for it, without removing the accessibility. For example, specific monster attacks could scale your fov+zoom to a fixed value before the attack starts and then scale them back when it ends. Obviously, this does not help in pvp, but I'm certain there are less people in this game who care about pvp than the number of people who are negatively affected by the fov change.


    First and mostly, why don't you cut making drama where it is not?

    You using lectures like >> "This is purely about denying others the option to experience the game."
    If you can't understand differences between feature/element removal and adjustments, then perhaps don't make false statements and firstly make some study?


    There where no statement/announcment by staff that they remove FoV adjustment feaure from game.

    Peoples will not be denied from playing this game, also do you realize that even if these changes from preview server would be applied to live server, they can be changed anytime?

    Other thing, yes there are players who have such issue, but do you know how many of them knew about way to change this field of view. There is less than 300 players who use this feature.

    And most of them have no issues with motion sikness.


    3) When I talked about action mmorpg games, I meaned about Vindictus, black desert onliner, Tera, guild wars 2, raiderz.
    There are countless others mmorpg games which also have action based combat, some I can't mentioned due NDA.

    But here is main difference what set a part action combat from classic tab targeting. . That is when enemy hit your chracter, you as player have ability to counter/dodge/block/evade that incoming hit. And you can use that feature/power at will when you want. And it's considered as prime survival element. While gear is secondary.

    As for Field of View have no influence in combat.

    As example: You enter in dark dungeon with your character.
    Then two things happens, dungeos enviroment, walls and low of light( darkness) adjust your field of view. When you walk through dungeon you are unsure if there is enemy behind next corner or not, so you are prepered to counter possible threat, either it's trap or enemies.

    So as you can see, limiting field of view is one of methods to make combat action based. In some my previous games enemies or dungeons may cause players vision blurred, or even apply inverted controll for few moments.

    These are few examples how developers artificially intensify combat.

    And now to make more simplier for you, take Neverwinter ToMM Phase 3. There is moment when you must keep eye on boss to see which which hand Halastor will use for his attack.. That's also one of methods how action mmorpg games mechanics intentsify combat.

    So make studies before making statement that field of view have nothing to do with action combat.
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 969 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    I read you posts,, and as I wrote before you just making drama.

    Point me a part in patch note, where staff make official statement/notification that they remove Field of View removal??

    THere is no such statement.
    Yet you go with lines>
    And yes, this is very clearly about denying people the option to play the game.

    Game feature to adjust/increase Field of view remain in game, it's only got slight adjustments.

    IF you incapable to understand then perhaps use google and look for answer instead making drama here.


    Peoples who are sensitive to motions, and having motions sickness issues are not dennyed to play this game.



    As for dark coridor not intensify combat.. Alright I get it, it's hard for you understan, so here simple practical real life way to let you understand.

    Get home in day time, walk arround house while there is light.. You can see clearly where are TV, pc/laptop, tables and so one..

    IN middle of night when is dark and you can't see anything, try walk then arround. Is it same as in day time? no, you can't see what is in front of you. So don't tell me field visibility have no affect your perception of environment.
    Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,816 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    There was older hardware and there is newer hardware.
    There was weaker graphic card and there is much better graphic card.
    There was smaller monitor and lower resolution monitor and there is bigger,higher resolution and curvy monitor.
    Everyone has different hardware.
    What was "okay" before does not mean it is okay for newer stuff.
    Even if it is okay now does not mean one does not want something more comfortable.
    I have been using FOV 90 since mod 6 if not earlier.
    I personally can't deal with higher and certainly don't want to deal with lower.
    It did not take me long to figure out back then. I did not ask anyone. There was google.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,461 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    Maybe because people know how to google, they don't need to pass the tutorial without it. There are posts from 2013 everywhere how to adjust it, and how to set mouse wheel as zoom (by creating alias files and rebinding).

    Strangely there was no ToMM in 2013. And that command is common knowledge since then.
    Some people stream and make videos regularly and clearly have high FoV long before it was an advantage to see some hand.

    Because some are clueless, it doesn't mean that the people for whom it matters are also clueless.

    ----

    I'm all for removing the comparative advantage, yet unfortunately people who even don't do tomm have motion sickness, and need a solution.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 969 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    rjc9000 said:



    So the dev team will just introduce a patch to lower the max brightness in the event there's a dark dungeon crawl?

    Because every single player out there will suddenly set the brightness to max, instead of making that specific dungeon obscure vision?

    What's next?

    Disabling the option for low quality world detail just so that a new dungeon based around spotting enemies in bushes isn't cheesed by just turning your graphics to low?

    Because how dare we include options for people playing on potato PCs, or people that don't want to strain their eyes when they want to kick back and play a video game.


    devs introduce patch which lower max brightness, you increase in your pc/laptop brightness thats it.
    To fix that required less than 1min..

    Also, remember most GPU's controll pannels have ability to override game settings. As example nVidia experciance, when you click optimize, it run on optimal settings for your pc/laptop. Even override previously in game applied visual settings.

    Disabling certain visual elements which allow to spot enemies. This thing is old, and used in various games. Even during quake 3 era ( 1998/1999) when playing on lan or via internet cafes we used settings to remove objects textures, to make game run faster and cause less lag spikes and also get advantage. Also we made so all enemy team would use specific skin which was rather noisy. Which gave us even more advantage.


    And now for potato PC..

    Games usually are developed by aiming to average pc's spec at that time.

    IF you try run game on calculator and fail, whos problem is yours or developers?

    @kreatyve .. I think this thread need to be cleared and part of it migrated to offtopic forum part..

    This topic does not concern me anymore, it's obviously just artificially created drama.
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    I agree 100% with janne and as I pointed out earlier, you can remove the advantage without removing the FoV.

    Say before disintegration wave starts, your fov contracts and your game zooms in. Then after disintegration wave ends, it zooms back out. This restricts the view of the player when it matters and it is at the same time not to the detriment of anyone who has issues with the fov inducing motion sickness.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    So brand new players, who are supposedly so sickened by FOV 55 or 70 or whatever, are going to be searching google for obscure console commands? Because that's what it took back in the day to change your FOV, no slider, no mouse wheel, you had to type in obscure commands and mess around with macros and keybinds. I find that difficult to believe. Those who are SO sickened by the defaults will just leave the game.

    And yes FOV issues can cause motion sickness, I know that, I am one of those people. I can't play most FPS games because of the inconsistency between the image of myself moving on the screen, vs. my motionless self. So what do I do? I just don't play FPS's. But Neverwinter is not a FPS. Your field of vision is not literally that of the character. I don't get sick playing Neverwinter because it is clear that the image presented is not trying to be that of myself literally moving through the world, but that of another character that I am controlling.

    If you want TOMM to be nerfed, just straight out and say so, but don't hide behind this issue to do so. It does an injustice to those who really do have issues with motion sickness.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    chemjeff said:



    This is about one thing and one thing only, making the third phase of TOMM easier than it should be. All of the drama is just about trying to manipulate the devs into giving away unearned advantages in difficult content. That's it. It is just concern trolling, nothing more.

    so you are saying that:

    fisenfis
    stiggy#5428
    nooneatza
    catson#7772
    plasticbat
    hrakh
    sundancewanderingwolf
    mushellka
    rjc9000
    xsellize8
    vorena
    bpstuart
    lordaelos
    thefabricant
    hades
    aragon

    and that are just the ppl from page one (might have missed a few), are all just here to lie and troll?
    Tell me about more about drama pls.


  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    There is some irony in the fact that people who know that I campaign for difficult content, who know that I would have preferred for tomm to be much harder than it is, somehow also believe that I am complaining about fov in order to make it easier. These same people argued with me time and time again that it should be easier, so they know that I don't take that stance.

    Heres a newsflash for you. No, I didn't suddenly change my mind and want easier content. I have even proposed methods in this thread to counteract allowing a higher fov (selective zoom) leading to an easier game.

    You don't have issues with the fov? Good for you. Some of us do. Fortunately for me and unfortunately for you, it seems the devs are aware of this and are going to up the limit to 100. Is it as high as I would like? No, but it's high enough to prevent motion sickness for me.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,461 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    chemjeff said:

    So brand new players, who are supposedly so sickened by FOV 55 or 70 or whatever, are going to be searching google for obscure console commands? Because that's what it took back in the day to change your FOV, no slider, no mouse wheel, you had to type in obscure commands and mess around with macros and keybinds. I find that difficult to believe. Those who are SO sickened by the defaults will just leave the game.

    And yes FOV issues can cause motion sickness, I know that, I am one of those people. I can't play most FPS games because of the inconsistency between the image of myself moving on the screen, vs. my motionless self. So what do I do? I just don't play FPS's. But Neverwinter is not a FPS. Your field of vision is not literally that of the character. I don't get sick playing Neverwinter because it is clear that the image presented is not trying to be that of myself literally moving through the world, but that of another character that I am controlling.

    If you want TOMM to be nerfed, just straight out and say so, but don't hide behind this issue to do so. It does an injustice to those who really do have issues with motion sickness.

    Obscure?

    Google "change FoV neverwinter". First result is from 2013. How the hell it's obscure. Next thing you will tell me that custom channels on PC are some obscure feature that no one knows about. Typing a command in chat is soooo complicated. Gods, I don't know how we survived so far. My computer reads my mind. This post was all done by telepathy.

    I have a bind for the 2 FoV I use since mod 3. And so are most people who were at /legit at and since...

    Look at the posters, from people who need ToMM to be nerfed like fish needs an umbrella to people who will never set foot in ToMM. Who exactly you think needs those nerfs here?

    You are the only one here who posts about "remove this from queue" "remove that" "it's too hard" or thinks that there is some secret tool or command that allows you easy mode.

    It's nice to see how when it's a problem for you, you are rushing to post claiming it affects everyone and everywhere, but when it is for others it's fake drama.

    And no, personally I don't use high FoV I've described mine in a previous post, I'm just annoyed by a type of posts. And all for limiting it on needed parts or other solution to remove the comparative advantage.
  • vorena#3664 vorena Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    Oh my dear heavens, the drama in this thread is overwhelming. With this type of melodrama, you all should audition for a soap opera.

    I did not even know about the FOV slider, I had mine set to the default, when I logged in, everything was just the way it had always been. It did not induce nausea or headaches. And this is coming from a guy who really does experience motion sickness with certain FPS games. I find it difficult to believe that *veteran* players are finding the *default* settings to be nausea-inducing. If that were the case, how did you all even make it past the tutorial without getting sick? Yes FOV issues can mess with people's inner ear balance and give them motion sickness. If people really had an issue with the *default* settings doing this, I don't know how they even made it past Blacklake. As plasticbat said, these players, who really are THAT sensitive to this sort of thing, would have left a long time ago.

    This is about one thing and one thing only, making the third phase of TOMM easier than it should be. All of the drama is just about trying to manipulate the devs into giving away unearned advantages in difficult content. That's it. It is just concern trolling, nothing more.


    One of the first things I do after opening a game for the first time is turn the graphics details waaay down and max FOV specifically because of the issue with motion sickness. NW is the first MMO I have been able to play in a while specifically because the option was there to do so. And it's not about ToMM and making it easier since I haven't even been there once.

    And I had a lot of issues with Blacklake and almost left the game then - even with FOV at max, zoomed out, and most graphics settings set at low. I get that some people feel this is about an unfair advantage but for quite a few of us it is about our ability to play the game at all. I've been in NW for 3 years and made some amazing friends and I would hate to lose all of that because of a change that no one asked for.



  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,816 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    This was a post somebody new made in 2013.

    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/384876/really-camera-distance-is-locked-cant-zoom

    He asked in a different forum and he wanted to have an answer.
    It appears the first one who did not even play the game gave him an answer (the link is lost now though).
    The 2nd one gave him a detail way to deal with it although it seems it did not work.
    What I try to point out is: yes, people tries to overcome problem.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    @tom No, I think most people here who are defending the use of high FOV are doing so on the basis that it makes the game easier and more enjoyable for them. Not because it is some sort of medical necessity. Only a couple of people on your list of people even brought up the idea of motion sickness. The rest simply stated that high FOV was a feature they enjoyed. It's the manipulation of the motion sickness angle that I am responding to.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,461 Arc User
    There are even posts at 2010, STO...
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    @tom No, I think most people here who are defending the use of high FOV are doing so on the basis that it makes the game easier and more enjoyable for them. Not because it is some sort of medical necessity. Only a couple of people on your list of people even brought up the idea of motion sickness. The rest simply stated that high FOV was a feature they enjoyed. It's the manipulation of the motion sickness angle that I am responding to.

    im not gona bother to relist all the ppl that complained because it gives them a headache to play more zoomed in, do yourselfs a favor and read the thread again. But its very telling to see how fast you are with claiming ppl are trolls and liars.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,816 Arc User
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    chemjeff said:

    @tom No, I think most people here who are defending the use of high FOV are doing so on the basis that it makes the game easier and more enjoyable for them. Not because it is some sort of medical necessity. Only a couple of people on your list of people even brought up the idea of motion sickness. The rest simply stated that high FOV was a feature they enjoyed. It's the manipulation of the motion sickness angle that I am responding to.

    im not gona bother to relist all the ppl that complained because it gives them a headache to play more zoomed in, do yourselfs a favor and read the thread again. But its very telling to see how fast you are with claiming ppl are trolls and liars.
    There are a few legitimate concerns mixed in with a whole lot of concern trolling. Like the guy on the front page who said "Do you have any idea how helpful 120 was for people in Tower?" I don't think this guy is complaining because of headaches. At least he is honest enough not to hide behind the medical issue.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    @micky1p00 If you have to go to google and mess around with keybinds and macros and aliases and console commands in order to change some feature that otherwise cannot be changed via the GUI, then yes I would regard that as obscure. I should not be expected to do that, certainly not as a brand new player.
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 239 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    @tom No, I think most people here who are defending the use of high FOV are doing so on the basis that it makes the game easier and more enjoyable for them. Not because it is some sort of medical necessity. Only a couple of people on your list of people even brought up the idea of motion sickness. The rest simply stated that high FOV was a feature they enjoyed. It's the manipulation of the motion sickness angle that I am responding to.

    Making the game more enjoyable is already a valid reason to keep the FOV setting as it was. Games are supposed to be enjoyable, despite recent Neverwinter updates trying to tell us otherwise.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,461 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    You understand that chatline commands were a norm at the time.. Typing in a single command in chat /gfxsetdefaultfov 80 is not rocket science. I've personally showed to the dozens that asked in legit years ago.

    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Slash_commands

    But regardless, you can find it obscure, luckily you are not the topic, people who need it and found how to do it, did it, and those that didn't, quit.
    Post edited by micky1p00 on
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    The first game I played didn't have a tutorial and it didn't list the keybinds anywhere. I figured out how to play it by pressing buttons and seeing what the buttons did. I didn't have the luxury of being able to look them up either. Believe me when I say, looking on the web how to change the fov is not hard and NW was not the first game I did it for either.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,461 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    You claim people lie about the reasons? Ok, who exactly? Everyone? Lets be specific, and lets see who wants it for real reasons, and who is to make the game easier.
    I see posters who never do group content, and I see people who asked for harder content, so lets list the names, and let either address the "non liars" issues or let those people address your accusations.
This discussion has been closed.