If I am going to spend 1 hour in a dungeon with someone, I would rather have it be with someone that I get along with, then someone that I don't and that is something I think we can all agree on.
Then you could have said that from the beginning, instead of resorting to insulting my abilities. Congratulations, you yourself validated the charge of elitism that everyone throws at you.
The original point here was about dps being fairly balanced, but here we are talking about tanking.
I do only play a Fighter tank on PC, however when ToMM came out on xbox, my friends over there asked for my help and experience so I decided to help them. I thought that the Barb tank looked very easy to play and was like, yeah this will be so easy to play, however when playing I realised its a lot harder than I thought. This does not mean its impossible, and I will give you some pros and cons for both.
Cons: Cannot move while blocking No damage resistance debuff
Barbarian:
Pros: 10% hp buff class feature 10% hp buff encounter 35% hp buff daily 50%+ stamina gain encounter 10% physical damage debuff can attack while blocking with the use of rage more effective hp means a bigger shield which means more damage mitigated (makes up for not having a 75% block)
Cons: no 75% block hard taunts have longer cooldown everything scales with HP, meaning more investment into HP is needed for similar result
I am probably missing more under every category however the point is they both have pros and cons. They both can do roughly the same output with roughly the same gear.
Someone asked me the other day what I thought of the 3 tanks. I say that a barb is best in a very good group, due to HP scaling and being able to dps the most. However its the worst in a bad group, as long cooldowns on skills, and only scaling forms of mitigation means you cannot cut corners with it. It does also have a harder time taking aggro to begin with, as if your hard taunt doesnt place you on the top of the threat list you have to wait 17.5 seconds to get it back again, which is the main reason people say the aggro is bad, to which I can agree with on some degree.
I cannot comment on the OP tank, I havent played it.
Edit: Added my Xbox ToMM Barb Stats (notice the flawless cloak also).
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
If I am going to spend 1 hour in a dungeon with someone, I would rather have it be with someone that I get along with, then someone that I don't and that is something I think we can all agree on.
Then you could have said that from the beginning, instead of resorting to insulting my abilities. Congratulations, you yourself validated the charge of elitism that everyone throws at you.
Its elitist to want to play with friends? Its elitist to call someone out for playing worse than someone else? Someone who I know as a matter of fact plays worse than viral simply because of how much you liked to complain about the push pull in CoDG which, for your information, I was able to do with over 5000 ping. I do not believe you would be a good representation of your class at peak performance.
The run was supposed to illustrate how, at a specific level of play, the different tanks are fairly balanced. You are not at that level of play. It would only demonstrate how a tank who is not at that level of play, is not able to compete in comparison to another.
If I am going to spend 1 hour in a dungeon with someone, I would rather have it be with someone that I get along with, then someone that I don't and that is something I think we can all agree on.
Then you could have said that from the beginning, instead of resorting to insulting my abilities. Congratulations, you yourself validated the charge of elitism that everyone throws at you.
Huh.
I don't like many people, and many people do not like me, doesn't mean I'm elitist, nor it makes them elitist. Welcome to social interactions 101. At graduation we will discover that indeed in multiple cases people do not like each other.
You have multitude of posts where you complain about difficulty, failures, and ask about tasks that many have no issue with, I don't want to go into the why and why not, but those definitely imply about your capability and ability as a player.
Personally I wouldn't take my lack of capability in a video game as compared to others as an insult, as the normal distribution dictates there will be always some better, some worse and so on.. And there are soo many players that are better than me. But I will also not cover my eyes and blame the world.
Playing a forum game to try to bait god know what is a lousy usage of time. A better one will be going and repeating the first boss as much as needed with a guildies to learn the mechanics and improve at tanking it.
If I am going to spend 1 hour in a dungeon with someone, I would rather have it be with someone that I get along with, then someone that I don't and that is something I think we can all agree on.
Then you could have said that from the beginning, instead of resorting to insulting my abilities. Congratulations, you yourself validated the charge of elitism that everyone throws at you.
Its elitist to want to play with friends? Its elitist to call someone out for playing worse than someone else? Someone who I know as a matter of fact plays worse than viral simply because of how much you liked to complain about the push pull in CoDG which, for your information, I was able to do with over 5000 ping. I do not believe you would be a good representation of your class at peak performance.
The run was supposed to illustrate how, at a specific level of play, the different tanks are fairly balanced. You are not at that level of play. It would only demonstrate how a tank who is not at that level of play, is not able to compete in comparison to another.
It's elitist to assume that the reason why I posted a question about the first boss is because I suck as a tank because you and your BIS buddies had no problems with it.
If I am going to spend 1 hour in a dungeon with someone, I would rather have it be with someone that I get along with, then someone that I don't and that is something I think we can all agree on.
Then you could have said that from the beginning, instead of resorting to insulting my abilities. Congratulations, you yourself validated the charge of elitism that everyone throws at you.
Its elitist to want to play with friends? Its elitist to call someone out for playing worse than someone else? Someone who I know as a matter of fact plays worse than viral simply because of how much you liked to complain about the push pull in CoDG which, for your information, I was able to do with over 5000 ping. I do not believe you would be a good representation of your class at peak performance.
The run was supposed to illustrate how, at a specific level of play, the different tanks are fairly balanced. You are not at that level of play. It would only demonstrate how a tank who is not at that level of play, is not able to compete in comparison to another.
It's elitist to assume that the reason why I posted a question about the first boss is because I suck as a tank because you and your BIS buddies had no problems with it.
I assumed that you are not a replacement for viral it based on a large number of factors all of which are valid. For example, CoDG push pull is a test of 2 things, 1 is reaction time and the second is ping. If the ping is stable and you have a decent reaction time, the push pull is not very difficult. Secondly, Viral knows all the fight mechanics, you clearly do not since you are asking about the first boss. This means you would have to learn them, which means that you cannot perform as well as he can. This means that when it comes to representing the class in this case, you would provide a false representation. There is nothing elitist about any of that, its just a matter of facts.
This is now completely offtopic for this thread however, as this thread was about class balance and not Chemjeff's Barbarian.
If I am going to spend 1 hour in a dungeon with someone, I would rather have it be with someone that I get along with, then someone that I don't and that is something I think we can all agree on.
Then you could have said that from the beginning, instead of resorting to insulting my abilities. Congratulations, you yourself validated the charge of elitism that everyone throws at you.
Huh.
I don't like many people, and many people do not like me, doesn't mean I'm elitist, nor it makes them elitist. Welcome to social interactions 101. At graduation we will discover that indeed in multiple cases people do not like each other.
You have multitude of posts where you complain about difficulty, failures, and ask about tasks that many have no issue with, I don't want to go into the why and why not, but those definitely imply about your capability and ability as a player.
Personally I wouldn't take my lack of capability in a video game as compared to others as an insult, as the normal distribution dictates there will be always some better, some worse and so on.. And there are soo many players that are better than me. But I will also not cover my eyes and blame the world.
Playing a forum game to try to bait god know what is a lousy usage of time. A better one will be going and repeating the first boss as much as needed with a guildies to learn the mechanics and improve at tanking it.
And by the way. I didn't come here to bait anyone. I came here to make an honest point about why it is foolish to look only at BIS to compare class balancing. My hunch is, BIS Barbie Tanks only appear "balanced" because they have so much more of an ability to deal damage due to all the power, that they are able to hold aggro that way, and it masks the real deficiencies in threat generation that the class has. Sharp wouldn't know that because he himself even admits he hasn't checked but he's sure that tanks are "balanced" because he saw BIS Barbie tanks with no apparent issues. Maybe Sharp the wizard of spreadsheets should actually test all the classes before making some declarative statement that all the classes are balanced.
We have also been watching the balance on PC with the M18 changes. The DPS classes are trending nice and close together which is a great thing.
Thaumaturge, Hunter, and Whisperknife are still behind the rest at this point and while I'd like to say those paths will get enough love prior to M19 launch to bring them up to the others, it is going to be tough to find enough time to do that so it will be a wait and see as we work towards preview.
M19 is bringing some adjustment to healer paths to help some of the disparity there. Make sure to look out for that when we get to preview in order to try out the changes and give feedback on how that feels so that adjustments can be made.
The next stage of class improvements would be taking the least used powers, whether that is an encounter, a class feature, a feat, etc., and deciding what to change to make it relevant. For some powers it will be just number adjustments to make it more viable. For others it would be pulling out the power and making a new one that fits in better with the class to make it a better option for players.
The biggest difference in tanks that I see is that Barbie tanks have the worst aggro generation skills.
I run on barbie and pally and I don't fully agree with this statement. I find my barbie holds well but it's more reliant on managing cooldowns than my pally. While I may have "oh HAMSTER" moments on Barbie because of cooldowns, I've also had "oh HAMSTER" moments on my pally if I mismanaged divinity and can't smite. The margin for error is smaller on my Barbie, but my barbie is also further from BiS than my pally. I also can't attack to keep generating threat on pally if I'm blocking. Not always an issue on Barbie thanks to rage..
They have one encounter with hard taunt, Punishing Charge + Challenger's Charge class feature, with a ~17sec cooldown.
What about Come and Get It?
If we're talking ToMM, what about not needing as much crit avoidance on Barbie as you do on Pally? That allows more offensive stats that will help with aggro. Yes, the class is more reliant on other forms of threat gen. I imagine that is by design so that each tank doesn't play exactly the same. With that said, shorter cooldowns would go a long way towards easing some of the annoyances. But I could say that about most of the classes.
And by the way. I didn't come here to bait anyone. I came here to make an honest point about why it is foolish to look only at BIS to compare class balancing. My hunch is, BIS Barbie Tanks only appear "balanced" because they have so much more of an ability to deal damage due to all the power, that they are able to hold aggro that way, and it masks the real deficiencies in threat generation that the class has.
First, apologies that I probably broke the quote formatting like I always do when I try to pick out just one piece of a quote chain.
Barbarian Tank is an area we have called out internally that we want to give some time to look into. We have read a lot of complaints about Barbarian Tanks not being capable of tanking as good as the other tanks can. Unfortunately metrics on how successful a tank is performing are not nearly as clear cut on damage being done which makes that process a bit more complicated but it is on our list of things to spend some time on.
As a reminder to everyone in the thread, there are a lot of opinions and arguing opinions/views can be contentious, but remember to keep it civil and be respectful to each other.
The next stage of class improvements would be taking the least used powers, whether that is an encounter, a class feature, a feat, etc., and deciding what to change to make it relevant. For some powers it will be just number adjustments to make it more viable. For others it would be pulling out the power and making a new one that fits in better with the class to make it a better option for players.
I'm guessing there will be feedback threads on this stuff?
So, in preparation for these threads, what is within the scope of programming that the team could do?
-For example, could the team design a new tactical power?
(I was specifically thinking about the Hunter and a tactical power designed for its Archery feat path. A tactical power that forces you to remain immobile, but increases your ranged damage and lowers ranged encounter power cooldowns.
The idea is that you stop to steady your aim and can pick off enemies more efficiently, but if enemies close the distance to you, you're a sitting duck).
-Is it possible to change animations without changing the damage/cooldown/etc.?
(Specifically asking for the Fighter's 3rd hit of Griffon's Wrath to use the first hit animation, since the current 3rd hit animation is clunky, leaves you open, and allows enemies to just walk out of your range while you're leaping).
-Are we allowed to use other games and their feat/class feature/playstyle stuff as a means of comparison?
-Will you tell us if things are able to be programmed/not able to be programmed because of engine constraints?
-Is it possible to move some feats' effects to a class feature, while moving some class features' effects to a feat?
-How are the ability score bonuses intended to factor into the overall feat/class feature/paragon path?
(For example, I would suggest tying some classes' bonuses to be based on thematic ability scores. Like the Fighter's Crushing Blows to be based off the Strength ability score rather than an ArmorPen ratio).
It is strangely embarrassing to see one player claiming to be more skilled than another in a game in which the pvp is dead. I could mention that although everyone runs the same in the final content, there are still factors such as the machine and internet that each one runs, or the variation of the focus placed on the challenge.
When I made my first IC, I was sure I wouldn't be in the top DPS, there was a CW and another GWF dps, both with the lion's weapon set. The other gwf I already knew, I know that he is a more veteran player than I am, I know that he goes to the server preview to test the new contents when they are released on the specific server, while I, poor thing, had seen some videos on youtube or twitch. So when looking only at the paingiver at the end of this dungeon, would it be a way to classify my ability compared to the other GWF that beat me up? I believe that at the end of the dungeon, I did very well, although my dps did not correspond with what he should have done. I say this because the OP healer was amazed that I died only 3x (in fact it was 5, I died 2x in the rocks that fall between the second boss and the third LOL) and that we completed the dungeon directly and in a very good time even though I'm a newbie, so much so that he adds me for future races.
It would be more sensible in PVE content, one player to say that he is more dedicated than the other, and not more skilled. If you want to measure the skill, create a character of the same class, without any equipment and do 1x1.
2
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
It is strangely embarrassing to see one player claiming to be more skilled than another in a game in which the pvp is dead. I could mention that although everyone runs the same in the final content, there are still factors such as the machine and internet that each one runs, or the variation of the focus placed on the challenge.
When I made my first IC, I was sure I wouldn't be in the top DPS, there was a CW and another GWF dps, both with the lion's weapon set. The other gwf I already knew, I know that he is a more veteran player than I am, I know that he goes to the server preview to test the new contents when they are released on the specific server, while I, poor thing, had seen some videos on youtube or twitch. So when looking only at the paingiver at the end of this dungeon, would it be a way to classify my ability compared to the other GWF that beat me up? I believe that at the end of the dungeon, I did very well, although my dps did not correspond with what he should have done. I say this because the OP healer was amazed that I died only 3x (in fact it was 5, I died 2x in the rocks that fall between the second boss and the third LOL) and that we completed the dungeon directly and in a very good time even though I'm a newbie, so much so that he adds me for future races.
It would be more sensible in PVE content, one player to say that he is more dedicated than the other, and not more skilled. If you want to measure the skill, create a character of the same class, without any equipment and do 1x1.
It is possible to measure player skill in a PVE game, you just go about it differently. Path of Exile is a PVE game, it also has ladders and races in those PVE modes. The top players are more dedicated than me in terms of time investment, sure, but they also play a lot better than me. I would not pretend I can play the game as well as they can. I can give examples of skilled players from many PVE games. Are racing games PVE games or PVP games? You are racing against other players and yet at no point do you "kill" another player. Player skill is measured in how many seconds you shave off in a race. You can race in any genre, speedruns are an obvious example, but there are also other ways to measure skill.
I know of a player for example, who did solo eCC with his feet controlling his character. He has also done similar challenges for other dungeons. Do you think everyone can do that? It takes effort and practice to do something like that, it is an example of skill. So sure, feel free to disparage PVE players by saying there is no skill in PVE as you are not playing against someone else. A player who truly cares about self improvement can do that in any game, alone, with nobody else to play against.
And in some games, for example Chess, Go and maybe at some point soon Dota, the AI is better than human players. It doesn't matter how good a human player gets in those games, there is always a computer that can beat them. The best way to self improve at chess is to play against a machine, even the top chess player in the world admits that. And as for FPS games? It isn't even hard to make a machine that is better than a human there, people who make AI for those games don't try to make AIs which beat humans, they try to make AIs which seem realistic because the bot which never misses is not fun to play against.
It is strangely embarrassing to see one player claiming to be more skilled than another in a game in which the pvp is dead. I could mention that although everyone runs the same in the final content, there are still factors such as the machine and internet that each one runs, or the variation of the focus placed on the challenge.
When I made my first IC, I was sure I wouldn't be in the top DPS, there was a CW and another GWF dps, both with the lion's weapon set. The other gwf I already knew, I know that he is a more veteran player than I am, I know that he goes to the server preview to test the new contents when they are released on the specific server, while I, poor thing, had seen some videos on youtube or twitch. So when looking only at the paingiver at the end of this dungeon, would it be a way to classify my ability compared to the other GWF that beat me up? I believe that at the end of the dungeon, I did very well, although my dps did not correspond with what he should have done. I say this because the OP healer was amazed that I died only 3x (in fact it was 5, I died 2x in the rocks that fall between the second boss and the third LOL) and that we completed the dungeon directly and in a very good time even though I'm a newbie, so much so that he adds me for future races.
It would be more sensible in PVE content, one player to say that he is more dedicated than the other, and not more skilled. If you want to measure the skill, create a character of the same class, without any equipment and do 1x1.
So in your opinion, in PvE, everyone are equally skilled and the only factor is gear? Or "Veterency"?
BtW, I don't see anyone talk about deaths or paingiver at all.
@noworries#8859 will there be any changes for barbie dps path ?
Maybe it increases 5 more magnitude in Brash Strike that nobody uses, since it creates less rage and has a horrible animation. It must be difficult to reduce the magnitude of Relentless Slash by 10 and add it to the Sure Strike (at will with higher rage generation, according to testers).
Will not change anything admiral relentless will still be better it has 2 hits that procs things.
Now we don't generate rage with atwill anyway we use encounters for that and use atwills on rage I know is absurd but we have what we have.
Problem is we don't have passive damage or bleed or something that procs with our powers. So if boss moves a lot we can't do much to keep up but we are good damage wise. They can't buff anymore ancounters or we will do 3M damage bloodleter on tomm we are close but will be hard on pvp. Only thing they can make is give us passive damage or faster rage gain without penalty.
Now for barb tank I don't see where is the problem sure you can lose agro sometime so what someone die you get it back. But if you want can build around imortal tank and can keep agro but you need to keep hitting.
Powers are a mess for threat they just need to lower CD of some threat encounters and we are good.
haha i think everyone missed what @thefabricant was originally trying to do here
let those with eyes see (think it worked)
anyway i think noworries just sent the OP healer a nerf hammer care package lol i hope not the case, hopefully there is a way to tweak the other healers instead i have ideas when the time comes
it would be nice to maybe get one more small tweak pass on those classes u said were under performing before mod 19 as that is a ways out - doesnt have to be crazy - just give us something
It is strangely embarrassing to see one player claiming to be more skilled than another in a game in which the pvp is dead. I could mention that although everyone runs the same in the final content, there are still factors such as the machine and internet that each one runs, or the variation of the focus placed on the challenge.
When I made my first IC, I was sure I wouldn't be in the top DPS, there was a CW and another GWF dps, both with the lion's weapon set. The other gwf I already knew, I know that he is a more veteran player than I am, I know that he goes to the server preview to test the new contents when they are released on the specific server, while I, poor thing, had seen some videos on youtube or twitch. So when looking only at the paingiver at the end of this dungeon, would it be a way to classify my ability compared to the other GWF that beat me up? I believe that at the end of the dungeon, I did very well, although my dps did not correspond with what he should have done. I say this because the OP healer was amazed that I died only 3x (in fact it was 5, I died 2x in the rocks that fall between the second boss and the third LOL) and that we completed the dungeon directly and in a very good time even though I'm a newbie, so much so that he adds me for future races.
It would be more sensible in PVE content, one player to say that he is more dedicated than the other, and not more skilled. If you want to measure the skill, create a character of the same class, without any equipment and do 1x1.
It is possible to measure player skill in a PVE game, you just go about it differently. Path of Exile is a PVE game, it also has ladders and races in those PVE modes. The top players are more dedicated than me in terms of time investment, sure, but they also play a lot better than me. I would not pretend I can play the game as well as they can. I can give examples of skilled players from many PVE games. Are racing games PVE games or PVP games? You are racing against other players and yet at no point do you "kill" another player. Player skill is measured in how many seconds you shave off in a race. You can race in any genre, speedruns are an obvious example, but there are also other ways to measure skill.
I know of a player for example, who did solo eCC with his feet controlling his character. He has also done similar challenges for other dungeons. Do you think everyone can do that? It takes effort and practice to do something like that, it is an example of skill. So sure, feel free to disparage PVE players by saying there is no skill in PVE as you are not playing against someone else. A player who truly cares about self improvement can do that in any game, alone, with nobody else to play against.
And in some games, for example Chess, Go and maybe at some point soon Dota, the AI is better than human players. It doesn't matter how good a human player gets in those games, there is always a computer that can beat them. The best way to self improve at chess is to play against a machine, even the top chess player in the world admits that. And as for FPS games? It isn't even hard to make a machine that is better than a human there, people who make AI for those games don't try to make AIs which beat humans, they try to make AIs which seem realistic because the bot which never misses is not fun to play against.
Well, I am a DOTA player originally. I came to the NW because at some point it was unbearable to play DOTA due mainly to toxicity. It makes me comfortable to mention that a player vs an AI sounds to me like HAMSTER. AI is programmed to store and recognize the movements of the best players, it would be something like creating a robot and putting in it all the skills of the best football players like Pelé, Messi, the 3 Ronaldos and others. This is not even close to what PVE is. In PVE ENGINE is programmed to execute, it does not adapt as an AI, it can be reprogrammed to be more difficult. An ex: with 75% of the hp I know that Arcturia will go to the center and the mimics will come, I as a player of a fragile class, kept my enconters powers for the first mimic and the daily and artifact for the second. I had to adapt to achieve the goal. I know that many did not think of performing as I did, it makes me smarter than they do by finding an alternative and overcoming a difficulty, but it does not make me more skilled than them.
To quote another ex, since @ micky1p00 doesn't seem to understand the one in my previous post (maybe the google translation was not good enough, maybe this one isn't), let's say the next trial doesn't come out on the server preview , would you and your friends be the first to finish it? Probably yes, but there is a chance it won't be. You were rewarded for your effort when you were the first ToMM to be finished on the live server, effort to have gone to the preview server and trained with your friends, but how many other good players have not had the opportunity to go to the preview for lack of time or interest for example? Many who ran in different groups have the Lion's weapons and make sure that some of them did not even bother to read your guide about the trial, they simply acquired the same knowledge as you with the practice. Would you be more skilled than them? I never did ToMM, I gave up practicing in the first week, in the practice groups I joined, I was always the player with the most power (186k at the time) and was easily beaten by players from other classes with 160k of power, I felt useless and gave up, does that make you more skilled than me? I'm just sure that you're harder than I am.
Will not change anything admiral relentless will still be better it has 2 hits that procs things.
Now we don't generate rage with atwill anyway we use encounters for that and use atwills on rage I know is absurd but we have what we have.
Problem is we don't have passive damage or bleed or something that procs with our powers. So if boss moves a lot we can't do much to keep up but we are good damage wise.
They can't buff anymore ancounters or we will do 3M damage bloodleter on tomm we are close but will be hard on pvp.
Only thing they can make is give us passive damage or faster rage gain without penalty.
Now for barb tank I don't see where is the problem sure you can lose agro sometime so what someone die you get it back. But if you want can build around imortal tank and can keep agro but you need to keep hitting.
Powers are a mess for threat they just need to lower CD of some threat encounters and we are good.
Remembering that you would still have to use Relentless Slash because of the debuff.
Well, maybe it's just me who doesn't like attacking "nothing" because the target moves, or having to use encounters power to generate rage since they do more damage than at will. I think I need to review the changes that happened in mod 16.
If I am going to spend 1 hour in a dungeon with someone, I would rather have it be with someone that I get along with, then someone that I don't and that is something I think we can all agree on.
Then you could have said that from the beginning, instead of resorting to insulting my abilities. Congratulations, you yourself validated the charge of elitism that everyone throws at you.
Huh.
I don't like many people, and many people do not like me, doesn't mean I'm elitist, nor it makes them elitist. Welcome to social interactions 101. At graduation we will discover that indeed in multiple cases people do not like each other.
You have multitude of posts where you complain about difficulty, failures, and ask about tasks that many have no issue with, I don't want to go into the why and why not, but those definitely imply about your capability and ability as a player.
Personally I wouldn't take my lack of capability in a video game as compared to others as an insult, as the normal distribution dictates there will be always some better, some worse and so on.. And there are soo many players that are better than me. But I will also not cover my eyes and blame the world.
Playing a forum game to try to bait god know what is a lousy usage of time. A better one will be going and repeating the first boss as much as needed with a guildies to learn the mechanics and improve at tanking it.
And by the way. I didn't come here to bait anyone. I came here to make an honest point about why it is foolish to look only at BIS to compare class balancing. My hunch is, BIS Barbie Tanks only appear "balanced" because they have so much more of an ability to deal damage due to all the power, that they are able to hold aggro that way, and it masks the real deficiencies in threat generation that the class has. Sharp wouldn't know that because he himself even admits he hasn't checked but he's sure that tanks are "balanced" because he saw BIS Barbie tanks with no apparent issues. Maybe Sharp the wizard of spreadsheets should actually test all the classes before making some declarative statement that all the classes are balanced.
I believe that Crytic should contstantly struggle for overall value equality between the paragons. I don't believe they should be equal or made similar, but they should all be able to get the job done and excel in some areas. Once this is achieved, it would be great to shift primary focus toward the unused skills. Modifying or buffing seldom-used skills of each paragon will improve the utility of them all and, by providing more options, reduce some of the repetiveness of some of the builds, like melee ranger.
Regarding Barbarians... yeah their dps fluctuates a lot. Situational dependence of any class, whether it be area AoE, range, or close combat, causes fluctuations in each instance. It's not a bad thing unless its becomes a bad thing.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Or please reply the question that was given. Is in your opinion, in PvE, everyone are equally skilled and the only factor is gear? Or "Veterency"?
Given everyone exactly the same gear, same stats, same power, same class, same time, will everyone have the same result? In terms of damage, and survivability.
The next stage of class improvements would be taking the least used powers, whether that is an encounter, a class feature, a feat, etc., and deciding what to change to make it relevant. For some powers it will be just number adjustments to make it more viable. For others it would be pulling out the power and making a new one that fits in better with the class to make it a better option for players.
-For example, could the team design a new tactical power?
(I was specifically thinking about the Hunter and a tactical power designed for its Archery feat path. A tactical power that forces you to remain immobile, but increases your ranged damage and lowers ranged encounter power cooldowns.
This reminds me of a power that gave you a buff when you were shooting over a certain distance (cough, cough). By the way they could easily use Aimed Shot for your purposes and that would be the easiest way to improve the Archer Hunter.
- increase the damage of Aimed Shot and use it as a trigger for the cooldown reduction feat currently based on Commanding Shot - bring Binding Arrow to the Hunter path (which also makes sense as all feat support for roots is on the Hunter side) - regive a damage buff to Longstrider's Shot when used over a certain distance.
A little bit of tweaking numbers and you'll have a decent pew-pew archer with a clear playstile. As encounters Constrictive Arrow, Binding Arrow, Commanding Shot (for the buff) and Longstrider's Shot could be good options depnding on the content.
It would be really nice to have such a change on a preview build and test it. I don't think it will need much programming. The feat is already there you just need to change the triggering power. Longstrider's original code is still there somewhere I guess. Binding Arrow is there and could be switched with Ambush (that fits more a melee build anyway) or some other power.
Post edited by gabrieldourden on
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Well, I am a DOTA player originally. I came to the NW because at some point it was unbearable to play DOTA due mainly to toxicity. It makes me comfortable to mention that a player vs an AI sounds to me like HAMSTER. AI is programmed to store and recognize the movements of the best players, it would be something like creating a robot and putting in it all the skills of the best football players like Pelé, Messi, the 3 Ronaldos and others. This is not even close to what PVE is. In PVE ENGINE is programmed to execute, it does not adapt as an AI, it can be reprogrammed to be more difficult. An ex: with 75% of the hp I know that Arcturia will go to the center and the mimics will come, I as a player of a fragile class, kept my enconters powers for the first mimic and the daily and artifact for the second. I had to adapt to achieve the goal. I know that many did not think of performing as I did, it makes me smarter than they do by finding an alternative and overcoming a difficulty, but it does not make me more skilled than them.
To quote another ex, since @ micky1p00 doesn't seem to understand the one in my previous post (maybe the google translation was not good enough, maybe this one isn't), let's say the next trial doesn't come out on the server preview , would you and your friends be the first to finish it? Probably yes, but there is a chance it won't be. You were rewarded for your effort when you were the first ToMM to be finished on the live server, effort to have gone to the preview server and trained with your friends, but how many other good players have not had the opportunity to go to the preview for lack of time or interest for example? Many who ran in different groups have the Lion's weapons and make sure that some of them did not even bother to read your guide about the trial, they simply acquired the same knowledge as you with the practice. Would you be more skilled than them? I never did ToMM, I gave up practicing in the first week, in the practice groups I joined, I was always the player with the most power (186k at the time) and was easily beaten by players from other classes with 160k of power, I felt useless and gave up, does that make you more skilled than me? I'm just sure that you're harder than I am.
As Janne said, that is not how the type of AI I was referring to is programmed. Nobody programs a chess bot to do x in the case of y, its not efficient to do so. In the case of Dota specifically, I mentioned that it isn't there quite yet, but it may be in this year or the next and for the purposes of 99.95% of all players, they would be better off playing against open AI than playing against another person if they wanted to learn. Here is an example of a match involving Open AI in 5v5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc1fl5bdZdA And here is 1v1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7eUx_Ob4os
Or please reply the question that was given. Is in your opinion, in PvE, everyone are equally skilled and the only factor is gear? Or "Veterency"?
Given everyone exactly the same gear, same stats, same power, same class, same time, will everyone have the same result? In terms of damage, and survivability.
You do not program them with specific moves. This is a "learning machine" you just make them play.
Isn't that the same argument that you have been making for years? It isn't the gear, or the game design, but instead a "learn to play" problem? If everyone would "learn to play," they would have the same result that you do.
It would be more sensible in PVE content, one player to say that he is more dedicated than the other, and not more skilled. If you want to measure the skill, create a character of the same class, without any equipment and do 1x1.
I don't understand this. Can i compare with sport ? Boxe is PvP, rock climbing is PvE. Would you say you can't compare skills between 2 rock climbers during the internationnal rock climbing world cup because they don't punch each other faces ?
Comments
I do only play a Fighter tank on PC, however when ToMM came out on xbox, my friends over there asked for my help and experience so I decided to help them. I thought that the Barb tank looked very easy to play and was like, yeah this will be so easy to play, however when playing I realised its a lot harder than I thought. This does not mean its impossible, and I will give you some pros and cons for both.
Fighter:
Pros:
75% 360* block
20% mitigation encounter
30% mitigation daily
50% stamina gain encounter
Hard Taunt + 10k awareness debuff (very overlooked debuff)
Cons:
Cannot move while blocking
No damage resistance debuff
Barbarian:
Pros:
10% hp buff class feature
10% hp buff encounter
35% hp buff daily
50%+ stamina gain encounter
10% physical damage debuff
can attack while blocking with the use of rage
more effective hp means a bigger shield which means more damage mitigated (makes up for not having a 75% block)
Cons:
no 75% block
hard taunts have longer cooldown
everything scales with HP, meaning more investment into HP is needed for similar result
I am probably missing more under every category however the point is they both have pros and cons. They both can do roughly the same output with roughly the same gear.
Someone asked me the other day what I thought of the 3 tanks. I say that a barb is best in a very good group, due to HP scaling and being able to dps the most. However its the worst in a bad group, as long cooldowns on skills, and only scaling forms of mitigation means you cannot cut corners with it. It does also have a harder time taking aggro to begin with, as if your hard taunt doesnt place you on the top of the threat list you have to wait 17.5 seconds to get it back again, which is the main reason people say the aggro is bad, to which I can agree with on some degree.
I cannot comment on the OP tank, I havent played it.
Edit: Added my Xbox ToMM Barb Stats (notice the flawless cloak also).
The run was supposed to illustrate how, at a specific level of play, the different tanks are fairly balanced. You are not at that level of play. It would only demonstrate how a tank who is not at that level of play, is not able to compete in comparison to another.
I don't like many people, and many people do not like me, doesn't mean I'm elitist, nor it makes them elitist. Welcome to social interactions 101. At graduation we will discover that indeed in multiple cases people do not like each other.
You have multitude of posts where you complain about difficulty, failures, and ask about tasks that many have no issue with, I don't want to go into the why and why not, but those definitely imply about your capability and ability as a player.
Personally I wouldn't take my lack of capability in a video game as compared to others as an insult, as the normal distribution dictates there will be always some better, some worse and so on.. And there are soo many players that are better than me.
But I will also not cover my eyes and blame the world.
Playing a forum game to try to bait god know what is a lousy usage of time. A better one will be going and repeating the first boss as much as needed with a guildies to learn the mechanics and improve at tanking it.
This is now completely offtopic for this thread however, as this thread was about class balance and not Chemjeff's Barbarian.
Now, where is my popcorn ?
Thaumaturge, Hunter, and Whisperknife are still behind the rest at this point and while I'd like to say those paths will get enough love prior to M19 launch to bring them up to the others, it is going to be tough to find enough time to do that so it will be a wait and see as we work towards preview.
M19 is bringing some adjustment to healer paths to help some of the disparity there. Make sure to look out for that when we get to preview in order to try out the changes and give feedback on how that feels so that adjustments can be made.
The next stage of class improvements would be taking the least used powers, whether that is an encounter, a class feature, a feat, etc., and deciding what to change to make it relevant. For some powers it will be just number adjustments to make it more viable. For others it would be pulling out the power and making a new one that fits in better with the class to make it a better option for players.
If we're talking ToMM, what about not needing as much crit avoidance on Barbie as you do on Pally? That allows more offensive stats that will help with aggro. Yes, the class is more reliant on other forms of threat gen. I imagine that is by design so that each tank doesn't play exactly the same. With that said, shorter cooldowns would go a long way towards easing some of the annoyances. But I could say that about most of the classes.
Barbarian Tank is an area we have called out internally that we want to give some time to look into. We have read a lot of complaints about Barbarian Tanks not being capable of tanking as good as the other tanks can. Unfortunately metrics on how successful a tank is performing are not nearly as clear cut on damage being done which makes that process a bit more complicated but it is on our list of things to spend some time on.
As a reminder to everyone in the thread, there are a lot of opinions and arguing opinions/views can be contentious, but remember to keep it civil and be respectful to each other.
So, in preparation for these threads, what is within the scope of programming that the team could do?
-For example, could the team design a new tactical power?
(I was specifically thinking about the Hunter and a tactical power designed for its Archery feat path. A tactical power that forces you to remain immobile, but increases your ranged damage and lowers ranged encounter power cooldowns.
The idea is that you stop to steady your aim and can pick off enemies more efficiently, but if enemies close the distance to you, you're a sitting duck).
-Is it possible to change animations without changing the damage/cooldown/etc.?
(Specifically asking for the Fighter's 3rd hit of Griffon's Wrath to use the first hit animation, since the current 3rd hit animation is clunky, leaves you open, and allows enemies to just walk out of your range while you're leaping).
-Are we allowed to use other games and their feat/class feature/playstyle stuff as a means of comparison?
-Will you tell us if things are able to be programmed/not able to be programmed because of engine constraints?
-Is it possible to move some feats' effects to a class feature, while moving some class features' effects to a feat?
-How are the ability score bonuses intended to factor into the overall feat/class feature/paragon path?
(For example, I would suggest tying some classes' bonuses to be based on thematic ability scores. Like the Fighter's Crushing Blows to be based off the Strength ability score rather than an ArmorPen ratio).
When I made my first IC, I was sure I wouldn't be in the top DPS, there was a CW and another GWF dps, both with the lion's weapon set. The other gwf I already knew, I know that he is a more veteran player than I am, I know that he goes to the server preview to test the new contents when they are released on the specific server, while I, poor thing, had seen some videos on youtube or twitch. So when looking only at the paingiver at the end of this dungeon, would it be a way to classify my ability compared to the other GWF that beat me up? I believe that at the end of the dungeon, I did very well, although my dps did not correspond with what he should have done. I say this because the OP healer was amazed that I died only 3x (in fact it was 5, I died 2x in the rocks that fall between the second boss and the third LOL) and that we completed the dungeon directly and in a very good time even though I'm a newbie, so much so that he adds me for future races.
It would be more sensible in PVE content, one player to say that he is more dedicated than the other, and not more skilled. If you want to measure the skill, create a character of the same class, without any equipment and do 1x1.
I know of a player for example, who did solo eCC with his feet controlling his character. He has also done similar challenges for other dungeons. Do you think everyone can do that? It takes effort and practice to do something like that, it is an example of skill. So sure, feel free to disparage PVE players by saying there is no skill in PVE as you are not playing against someone else. A player who truly cares about self improvement can do that in any game, alone, with nobody else to play against.
And in some games, for example Chess, Go and maybe at some point soon Dota, the AI is better than human players. It doesn't matter how good a human player gets in those games, there is always a computer that can beat them. The best way to self improve at chess is to play against a machine, even the top chess player in the world admits that. And as for FPS games? It isn't even hard to make a machine that is better than a human there, people who make AI for those games don't try to make AIs which beat humans, they try to make AIs which seem realistic because the bot which never misses is not fun to play against.
BtW, I don't see anyone talk about deaths or paingiver at all.
Now we don't generate rage with atwill anyway we use encounters for that and use atwills on rage I know is absurd but we have what we have.
Problem is we don't have passive damage or bleed or something that procs with our powers. So if boss moves a lot we can't do much to keep up but we are good damage wise.
They can't buff anymore ancounters or we will do 3M damage bloodleter on tomm we are close but will be hard on pvp.
Only thing they can make is give us passive damage or faster rage gain without penalty.
Now for barb tank I don't see where is the problem sure you can lose agro sometime so what someone die you get it back. But if you want can build around imortal tank and can keep agro but you need to keep hitting.
Powers are a mess for threat they just need to lower CD of some threat encounters and we are good.
The imaginary Friends
Main Kingslayer.jr(barb)
let those with eyes see (think it worked)
anyway i think noworries just sent the OP healer a nerf hammer care package lol
i hope not the case, hopefully there is a way to tweak the other healers instead
i have ideas when the time comes
it would be nice to maybe get one more small tweak pass on those classes u said were under performing
before mod 19 as that is a ways out - doesnt have to be crazy - just give us something
To quote another ex, since @ micky1p00 doesn't seem to understand the one in my previous post (maybe the google translation was not good enough, maybe this one isn't), let's say the next trial doesn't come out on the server preview , would you and your friends be the first to finish it? Probably yes, but there is a chance it won't be. You were rewarded for your effort when you were the first ToMM to be finished on the live server, effort to have gone to the preview server and trained with your friends, but how many other good players have not had the opportunity to go to the preview for lack of time or interest for example? Many who ran in different groups have the Lion's weapons and make sure that some of them did not even bother to read your guide about the trial, they simply acquired the same knowledge as you with the practice. Would you be more skilled than them? I never did ToMM, I gave up practicing in the first week, in the practice groups I joined, I was always the player with the most power (186k at the time) and was easily beaten by players from other classes with 160k of power, I felt useless and gave up, does that make you more skilled than me? I'm just sure that you're harder than I am.
I would like to have posted the youtube link where a player wins AI, but I will leave what would be a skill dispute.
Well, maybe it's just me who doesn't like attacking "nothing" because the target moves, or having to use encounters power to generate rage since they do more damage than at will. I think I need to review the changes that happened in mod 16.
Regarding Barbarians... yeah their dps fluctuates a lot. Situational dependence of any class, whether it be area AoE, range, or close combat, causes fluctuations in each instance. It's not a bad thing unless its becomes a bad thing.
Is in your opinion, in PvE, everyone are equally skilled and the only factor is gear? Or "Veterency"?
Given everyone exactly the same gear, same stats, same power, same class, same time, will everyone have the same result? In terms of damage, and survivability.
BtW that is not how you "make AI"
https://openai.com/blog/more-on-dota-2/
You do not program them with specific moves. This is a "learning machine" you just make them play.
- increase the damage of Aimed Shot and use it as a trigger for the cooldown reduction feat currently based on Commanding Shot
- bring Binding Arrow to the Hunter path (which also makes sense as all feat support for roots is on the Hunter side)
- regive a damage buff to Longstrider's Shot when used over a certain distance.
A little bit of tweaking numbers and you'll have a decent pew-pew archer with a clear playstile. As encounters Constrictive Arrow, Binding Arrow, Commanding Shot (for the buff) and Longstrider's Shot could be good options depnding on the content.
It would be really nice to have such a change on a preview build and test it. I don't think it will need much programming. The feat is already there you just need to change the triggering power. Longstrider's original code is still there somewhere I guess. Binding Arrow is there and could be switched with Ambush (that fits more a melee build anyway) or some other power.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Here is an example of a match involving Open AI in 5v5:
And here is 1v1:
Boxe is PvP, rock climbing is PvE. Would you say you can't compare skills between 2 rock climbers during the internationnal rock climbing world cup because they don't punch each other faces ?