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  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    I'm not going to argue with @thefabricant on damage output, that's his field far more than mine.
    As a ranger I can see that I can complete all content as melee warden with no big issues and decent positioning in the paingiver list with my 183k power before buffs. If I play hunter life is definitely harder, as burst is pretty good but sustained DPS is an issue. Anyway as he is referring to class balance and not path balance ,I can at least say that ranger is still in a decent spot.

    What I really like in the original post is the sentence about playstile. Melee warden for example is absolutely boring to play. You are stuck into a fixed rotation and that's it. I fully agree that there will always be a "best" rotation for each combat situation, but there should be some room to change it and try something different without seeing your performance drop down to the ground.

    I absolutely agree that within a class, there are still balance issues. For example, Thaum Wizard (barring some bugs) is in a poor position at the moment and is not competitive vs Arcanist. Or that 1 path of Ranger is underperforming, however, all the classes have a viable dps path and all the tanks and healers have a viable tank or healer path. The balance overall is fairly good. Whilst there are still things that can be tweaked, in my opinion fixing the playstyles of classes matters more now than fixing balance issues.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User

    I compare the top players across multiple alliances (THC, Thieves World, Infernal Paragons and some others) and the result I find is that the classes all perform roughly the same. I don't care how people perform in pug runs, pug runs represent the worst players in the game.

    Which do you think is a more common occurrence in the game?

    1. People doing RTQ with top players
    2. People doing RTQ with pugs

    If classes are balanced only for those in #1, but the vast majority of players never see this "balance" because they are participating in pugs (#2), then are the classes really "balanced" from an empirical point of view?
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    Neither.
    The most common is people doing guild/alliance premades with all the variance in skill and gear that that entails.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    I compare the top players across multiple alliances (THC, Thieves World, Infernal Paragons and some others) and the result I find is that the classes all perform roughly the same. I don't care how people perform in pug runs, pug runs represent the worst players in the game.

    Which do you think is a more common occurrence in the game?

    1. People doing RTQ with top players
    2. People doing RTQ with pugs

    If classes are balanced only for those in #1, but the vast majority of players never see this "balance" because they are participating in pugs (#2), then are the classes really "balanced" from an empirical point of view?
    Gear is just increasing your dmg, so if classes are fine at the top end, unless a class is alot harder to play, classes are also fine at lower levels, given you compare them with someone that has the same gear.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited February 2020

    Because =all classes perform roughly the same =he runs with op healer, fighter tank and a sw to complement cws AoE.
    Go figure.
    .
    Then he posts about runs with 120 k power , while the dps are kept alive by the God shield and the boss stay put as a sitting duck to give combat advantage and full dps time.
    .
    What happens in reality is that except fighter tank and a very good one at that, the other tanks can not keep aggro.
    Bc they can not keep aggro everybody dodges and slides , trying to dps while running around to lose aggro with no CA and after 3 res, they lose power too.
    The sw healer is a bit versatile but still can not give immortality and the cleric is skirmish healer so plenty of deaths.
    That is why nobody makes a less than 170k power party bc it has to compensate.
    .
    I have seen this kind of slide of hand used in no healer runs videos. At this point I wonder if he really does not see his false argument.
    .
    @thefabricant = I tagged bc you might want to reply, or not.
    .

    All I will say is that the GF could have been traded for an equally geared and skilled OP or Barb and the results would have been the same. They can all keep aggro just fine and they are all roughly as good as each other. OP probably would have been better than GF in fact.

    The reason I picked the people in that group was because they are people I communicate with regularly outside of the game, who also share some interest in low geared runs. Not many people are willing to take off their gear to run stuff. The 120k run, we could very easily have swapped the OP healer with a SW or cleric and still finished, that run was not in any way challenging.

    We did do another run with much less gear, described here where we could not swap the OP out, simply because if we did, the tank would get 1 shot. Incidentally, if your characters look like that, they should probably not be in IC in the first place. Nothing in the game is so hard that you are faced with a situation like this, the classes are fairly balanced for most real game scenarios.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited February 2020

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    The biggest difference in tanks that I see is that Barbie tanks have the worst aggro generation skills. They have one encounter with hard taunt, Punishing Charge + Challenger's Charge class feature, with a ~17sec cooldown. Everything else is threat increasing abilities, but nothing else that will automatically put the tank at the top of the threat list. Barbies have an at-will that will increase threat, and another class feature that will increase threat, but a HDPS can steal aggro away even when using those. Especially if the Barbie tank dies, then it is just disaster trying to get aggro back again.

    The few times I have tried TOMM as tank, the hardest part was trying to get the boss to throw the big ball at me. Every time it would seem, some HDPS would steal aggro from me right before he throws the ball.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
  • lordaeoloslordaeolos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User

    I'm not going to argue with @thefabricant on damage output, that's his field far more than mine.
    As a ranger I can see that I can complete all content as melee warden with no big issues and decent positioning in the paingiver list with my 183k power before buffs. If I play hunter life is definitely harder, as burst is pretty good but sustained DPS is an issue. Anyway as he is referring to class balance and not path balance ,I can at least say that ranger is still in a decent spot.

    What I really like in the original post is the sentence about playstile. Melee warden for example is absolutely boring to play. You are stuck into a fixed rotation and that's it. I fully agree that there will always be a "best" rotation for each combat situation, but there should be some room to change it and try something different without seeing your performance drop down to the ground.

    I absolutely agree that within a class, there are still balance issues. For example, Thaum Wizard (barring some bugs) is in a poor position at the moment and is not competitive vs Arcanist. Or that 1 path of Ranger is underperforming, however, all the classes have a viable dps path and all the tanks and healers have a viable tank or healer path. The balance overall is fairly good. Whilst there are still things that can be tweaked, in my opinion fixing the playstyles of classes matters more now than fixing balance issues.
    I would agree that classes are currently closer to balanced at end game than at any point in game history... but it still feels like they reach that balanced state at different points in progression (some of it is related to some classes requiring more skill to master, and some due to classes feeling like they achieve end game with less stats). This leaves the impression to the majority of the community, which is not at all end game, that classes are not balanced.
    "Lord Willow"
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    "Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    chemjeff said:

    I compare the top players across multiple alliances (THC, Thieves World, Infernal Paragons and some others) and the result I find is that the classes all perform roughly the same. I don't care how people perform in pug runs, pug runs represent the worst players in the game.

    Which do you think is a more common occurrence in the game?

    1. People doing RTQ with top players
    2. People doing RTQ with pugs

    If classes are balanced only for those in #1, but the vast majority of players never see this "balance" because they are participating in pugs (#2), then are the classes really "balanced" from an empirical point of view?
    Gear is just increasing your dmg, so if classes are fine at the top end, unless a class is alot harder to play, classes are also fine at lower levels, given you compare them with someone that has the same gear.
    It is more of an epistemological question.

    If the classes are "balanced" but nobody except an elite few ever claims to observe this, are the classes really "balanced" from the point of view of the average player?
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
    At endgame (BiS) they appear equal to the other tanks. @magdalena#1708 was asserting that with low gear, they are not. I do not know any endgame barbarians who are ALSO willing to strip their character for such a run. I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User
    chemjeff said:



    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.

    He already set aside that much in taxes and for the "Send Janne a Ferrari" Foundation, unfortunately, he can't spare much more to make a Barbie tank.


    I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.

    ... Or you could also use some of that NW 500 AD to send me gear and insignias for my Barbie so I can try it at BiS, then try it at meh tier epeen level for the sake of making arguments on class balance.

    :P

  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
    At endgame (BiS) they appear equal to the other tanks. @magdalena#1708 was asserting that with low gear, they are not. I do not know any endgame barbarians who are ALSO willing to strip their character for such a run. I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.
    I will be happy to do some testing with you with my non-BIS Barbie Tank.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
    At endgame (BiS) they appear equal to the other tanks. @magdalena#1708 was asserting that with low gear, they are not. I do not know any endgame barbarians who are ALSO willing to strip their character for such a run. I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.
    I will be happy to do some testing with you with my non-BIS Barbie Tank.
    Viral (the gf in our run) plays a barbie tank on console. If we do it, it will probably be him.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited February 2020

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
    At endgame (BiS) they appear equal to the other tanks. @magdalena#1708 was asserting that with low gear, they are not. I do not know any endgame barbarians who are ALSO willing to strip their character for such a run. I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.
    I can imagine what the problem here is: At BIS, the Barbie tanks have so much power as well as all of the necessary defensive stats, that they are able to hold aggro by damage dealing alone. But at non-BIS levels, Barbie tanks have to choose between defensive stats and offensive stats. With more offensive stats, the tank dies too often, and with defensive stats, the tank can't keep aggro in the presence of HDPS players because of the poor state of Barbie threat-generating skills alone.

    This is also why looking at BIS players alone to judge balance is foolish. If you only look at BIS, you don't even see this type of tradeoff.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
    At endgame (BiS) they appear equal to the other tanks. @magdalena#1708 was asserting that with low gear, they are not. I do not know any endgame barbarians who are ALSO willing to strip their character for such a run. I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.
    I can imagine what the problem here is: At BIS, the Barbie tanks have so much power as well as all of the necessary defensive stats, that they are able to hold aggro by damage dealing alone. But at non-BIS levels, Barbie tanks have to choose between defensive stats and offensive stats. With more offensive stats, the tank dies too often, and with defensive stats, the tank can't keep aggro in the presence of HDPS players because of the poor state of Barbie threat-generating skills alone.

    This is also why looking at BIS players alone to judge balance is foolish. If you only look at BIS, you don't even see this type of tradeoff.
    The aggro issue would primarily come about in a party where the tank has poor gear but the DPS has good gear. I can almost guarantee you, if we took those characters we were running in that low geared IC in with a barbarian, we would not steal aggro. We simple do not have enough damage output to do so. If you take a tank like that and a dps with gear that is better however, the dps will probably steal aggro.

    I suspect that is the issue most people are facing, groups where there is a gear discrepancy between dps and tanks, where the aggro is balanced around gear being roughly even.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
    At endgame (BiS) they appear equal to the other tanks. @magdalena#1708 was asserting that with low gear, they are not. I do not know any endgame barbarians who are ALSO willing to strip their character for such a run. I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.
    I can imagine what the problem here is: At BIS, the Barbie tanks have so much power as well as all of the necessary defensive stats, that they are able to hold aggro by damage dealing alone. But at non-BIS levels, Barbie tanks have to choose between defensive stats and offensive stats. With more offensive stats, the tank dies too often, and with defensive stats, the tank can't keep aggro in the presence of HDPS players because of the poor state of Barbie threat-generating skills alone.

    This is also why looking at BIS players alone to judge balance is foolish. If you only look at BIS, you don't even see this type of tradeoff.
    The aggro issue would primarily come about in a party where the tank has poor gear but the DPS has good gear. I can almost guarantee you, if we took those characters we were running in that low geared IC in with a barbarian, we would not steal aggro. We simple do not have enough damage output to do so. If you take a tank like that and a dps with gear that is better however, the dps will probably steal aggro.

    I suspect that is the issue most people are facing, groups where there is a gear discrepancy between dps and tanks, where the aggro is balanced around gear being roughly even.
    No - it comes about with Barbie tanks that have decent gear, but not also high amounts of power in order to keep aggro.

    If both tank and DPS have "poor" gear, then sure, Barbie tanks can keep aggro, because the Barbie's threat generation skills, as pathetic as they are, are enough to keep aggro because the DPS is unable to steal it.

    If both tank and DPS have BIS gear, then I suppose *maybe* Barbie tanks can keep aggro (although I have never observed it personally), but if so, it would only be because the Barbie tank is playing more like a DPS character with a huge HP pool, because the tank has the luxury of so many stats that s/he can invest in power without sacrificing defensive stats.

    It's the intermediate cases in which the weakness of Barbie tanks becomes evident. And which can't be judged if one only looks at BIS cases. The BIS status of those tanks masks the deficiencies in the character.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
    At endgame (BiS) they appear equal to the other tanks. @magdalena#1708 was asserting that with low gear, they are not. I do not know any endgame barbarians who are ALSO willing to strip their character for such a run. I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.
    I can imagine what the problem here is: At BIS, the Barbie tanks have so much power as well as all of the necessary defensive stats, that they are able to hold aggro by damage dealing alone. But at non-BIS levels, Barbie tanks have to choose between defensive stats and offensive stats. With more offensive stats, the tank dies too often, and with defensive stats, the tank can't keep aggro in the presence of HDPS players because of the poor state of Barbie threat-generating skills alone.

    This is also why looking at BIS players alone to judge balance is foolish. If you only look at BIS, you don't even see this type of tradeoff.
    The aggro issue would primarily come about in a party where the tank has poor gear but the DPS has good gear. I can almost guarantee you, if we took those characters we were running in that low geared IC in with a barbarian, we would not steal aggro. We simple do not have enough damage output to do so. If you take a tank like that and a dps with gear that is better however, the dps will probably steal aggro.

    I suspect that is the issue most people are facing, groups where there is a gear discrepancy between dps and tanks, where the aggro is balanced around gear being roughly even.
    No - it comes about with Barbie tanks that have decent gear, but not also high amounts of power in order to keep aggro.

    If both tank and DPS have "poor" gear, then sure, Barbie tanks can keep aggro, because the Barbie's threat generation skills, as pathetic as they are, are enough to keep aggro because the DPS is unable to steal it.

    If both tank and DPS have BIS gear, then I suppose *maybe* Barbie tanks can keep aggro (although I have never observed it personally), but if so, it would only be because the Barbie tank is playing more like a DPS character with a huge HP pool, because the tank has the luxury of so many stats that s/he can invest in power without sacrificing defensive stats.

    It's the intermediate cases in which the weakness of Barbie tanks becomes evident. And which can't be judged if one only looks at BIS cases. The BIS status of those tanks masks the deficiencies in the character.
    We did many runs of ToMM where we had a barbie tanking for us and the only aggro issue they had was that it was difficult for other tank classes to take aggro from them. I think @viraaal can comment on that especially.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
    At endgame (BiS) they appear equal to the other tanks. @magdalena#1708 was asserting that with low gear, they are not. I do not know any endgame barbarians who are ALSO willing to strip their character for such a run. I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.
    I will be happy to do some testing with you with my non-BIS Barbie Tank.
    Viral (the gf in our run) plays a barbie tank on console. If we do it, it will probably be him.
    Well, whatever. I am on PC and you don't have to convince me to drop my BIS gear because I'm not BIS in the first place.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
    At endgame (BiS) they appear equal to the other tanks. @magdalena#1708 was asserting that with low gear, they are not. I do not know any endgame barbarians who are ALSO willing to strip their character for such a run. I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.
    I will be happy to do some testing with you with my non-BIS Barbie Tank.
    Viral (the gf in our run) plays a barbie tank on console. If we do it, it will probably be him.
    Well, whatever. I am on PC and you don't have to convince me to drop my BIS gear because I'm not BIS in the first place.
    Yes, but I also don't think you play as well as he does and would not be a true reflection of playing the class exceptionally well.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
    At endgame (BiS) they appear equal to the other tanks. @magdalena#1708 was asserting that with low gear, they are not. I do not know any endgame barbarians who are ALSO willing to strip their character for such a run. I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.
    I will be happy to do some testing with you with my non-BIS Barbie Tank.
    Viral (the gf in our run) plays a barbie tank on console. If we do it, it will probably be him.
    Well, whatever. I am on PC and you don't have to convince me to drop my BIS gear because I'm not BIS in the first place.
    Yes, but I also don't think you play as well as he does and would not be a true reflection of playing the class exceptionally well.
    And you know this how?
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
    At endgame (BiS) they appear equal to the other tanks. @magdalena#1708 was asserting that with low gear, they are not. I do not know any endgame barbarians who are ALSO willing to strip their character for such a run. I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.
    I will be happy to do some testing with you with my non-BIS Barbie Tank.
    Viral (the gf in our run) plays a barbie tank on console. If we do it, it will probably be him.
    Well, whatever. I am on PC and you don't have to convince me to drop my BIS gear because I'm not BIS in the first place.
    Yes, but I also don't think you play as well as he does and would not be a true reflection of playing the class exceptionally well.
    And you know this how?
    I don't, but what I do know is that if I am going to spend one hour in infernal citadel I want it to be with people that I actually like.

    A person who is struggling with the first boss in IC still needs to improve their handling of their class, because the mechanics of that boss are fairly simple in comparison to most of the mechanics in that dungeon and I know that for either myself or viral, soloing it is easy.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
    At endgame (BiS) they appear equal to the other tanks. @magdalena#1708 was asserting that with low gear, they are not. I do not know any endgame barbarians who are ALSO willing to strip their character for such a run. I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.
    I will be happy to do some testing with you with my non-BIS Barbie Tank.
    Viral (the gf in our run) plays a barbie tank on console. If we do it, it will probably be him.
    Well, whatever. I am on PC and you don't have to convince me to drop my BIS gear because I'm not BIS in the first place.
    Yes, but I also don't think you play as well as he does and would not be a true reflection of playing the class exceptionally well.
    And you know this how?
    I don't, but what I do know is that if I am going to spend one hour in infernal citadel I want it to be with people that I actually like.

    Also, I highly doubt that anyone who is struggling to tank the first boss in IC is a good barbarian, because that boss is easy, even to do solo.
    Your tank died on your first attempt with low-gear TIC on first boss, did he not? Is he a poor tank?

    I have attempted tanking the first boss exactly once and that is what I posted about. I bet you succeeded on the first attempt of everything you tried, right?

    And how would you know what makes for a good Barbarian tank? You said yourself you are too lazy to test it.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    @thefabricant I really,really did enjoyed the video but place a disclaimer= do not try this at home=, bc many players take your word as the Bible or something.
    .
    P.S. You are wrong about tanks being equal. I am not in the category above.
    .

    If there is a difference, its so small that you cannot reasonably create a test to distinguish them. We might be willing to show that, but if we do, it involves leveling up new characters within the same group of people to show it, because most of the people who play Barbarian that I know who are good at it, aren't interested in doing low geared runs. :(

    We can almost definitely do another run with an OP tank though.
    Didn't you say you have millions of AD that you don't know what to do with? So, just buy a brand new BIS Barbarian Sentinel and test it.
    I think you misunderstand, the problem is not cost, its lazyness. You cannot buy a level 80 character, only a level 70 character, so you would still need to do the last 10 levels and to make the test comparable to the previous test, the run would be done on preview with an undergeared character. That gear doesn't exactly cost anything.
    Then how do you know Barbarian tanks are equal to all other tanks?
    At endgame (BiS) they appear equal to the other tanks. @magdalena#1708 was asserting that with low gear, they are not. I do not know any endgame barbarians who are ALSO willing to strip their character for such a run. I know plenty who are willing to run with completely BiS gear, but that does not fulfill the query I was posed.
    I will be happy to do some testing with you with my non-BIS Barbie Tank.
    Viral (the gf in our run) plays a barbie tank on console. If we do it, it will probably be him.
    Well, whatever. I am on PC and you don't have to convince me to drop my BIS gear because I'm not BIS in the first place.
    Yes, but I also don't think you play as well as he does and would not be a true reflection of playing the class exceptionally well.
    And you know this how?
    I don't, but what I do know is that if I am going to spend one hour in infernal citadel I want it to be with people that I actually like.

    Also, I highly doubt that anyone who is struggling to tank the first boss in IC is a good barbarian, because that boss is easy, even to do solo.
    Your tank died on your first attempt with low-gear TIC on first boss, did he not? Is he a poor tank?

    I have attempted tanking the first boss exactly once and that is what I posted about. I bet you succeeded on the first attempt of everything you tried, right?

    And how would you know what makes for a good Barbarian tank? You said yourself you are too lazy to test it.
    He died because he attempted it with 400,000 hitpoints and everything 1 shot him. The first time we attempted this boss on owlbear, it was so easy for us, we genuinely sat around and chatted not hitting it, removing 10% hp from it once every 2 minutes, trying to work out what it did, because we were puzzled that the boss was so simple.

    And you are right, I don't know what makes a good or bad barbarian, aside from the stat distribution. But I do know that if I have 2 barbarians and I run with either of them, I could tell which 1 I would rather run with in terms of how they play. I also know that, if some barbarians can perform a certain task on the first try and others cannot, the ones that can do it on the first try are faster learners and possibly play better.

    There is nothing wrong with asking for help, but it does mean that there is room to learn. Viral knows the boss very well, he is also someone I know in game fairly well and I get along with. If I am going to spend 1 hour in a dungeon with someone, I would rather have it be with someone that I get along with, then someone that I don't and that is something I think we can all agree on.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    the problem with the getting an exceptional tank is that it isn't reflecting the hoi polloi and the hoi polloi is the lesser geared that was being discussed. when the majority of players are not the on par with the best and the best are less than 1 percent of the population you can't declare it all balanced based on that. I'd allow that from a best of the best perspective things seem aligned well. but there is another few sides of the coin that shouldn't be ignored. that is how the decent are comparing and how the poor are comparing because they are a much larger faction of the player base.

    I'm not making any assertions on how balanced things are or aren't in mod 18 because i'm not there yet. but there is definitely a level of YMMV here.
This discussion has been closed.