Class Balance

thefabricant

This post is going to be a change of pace from most posts on the forums I think.

I have been running a few dungeons recently with my usual friends when I suddenly realized, for the most part (in my opinion) all the classes are reasonably balanced now. Sure there are some differences and you can still point and say that 1 class performs better than another in some cases (for example, wizard sucks at AoE and barbarian may be a little bit too good at it) but by and large the classes all perform more or less evenly. The differences are too small in my opinion to realistically matter. So I wanted to congratulate the dev team for managing this, its taken a long time, but I think we have finally reached the point where I can reasonably say, tweaking the way classes play might be more important than tweaking how they perform.

Well done devs, its nice that this problem has largely been solved.

demarw2

Maybe you are right. But in ToMM you can see big differences between the DPS classes. And a good AoE damage is not important, if you are excluded from the highest trial with the best loot caused by your class choice.

rjc9000

thefabricant said:

Sure there are some differences and you can still point and say that 1 class performs better than another in some cases (for example, wizard sucks at AoE and barbarian may be a little bit too good at it) but by and large the classes all perform more or less evenly. The differences are too small in my opinion to realistically matter.

inb4


Well, no matter how you spin it, I can only await the inevitable bickering that will arise.

thefabricant

demarw2#2749 said:

Maybe you are right. But in ToMM you can see big differences between the DPS classes. And a good AoE damage is not important, if you are excluded from the highest trial with the best loot caused by your class choice.

Not really, I was talking about my experience inside both ToMM and IC. There are people performing well on every class, even DpS GF in ToMM. It is just a case of L2P. It might take the meta a while to adapt, but I am pretty sure when it eventually does, people will realize that all the classes can perform well.

I might just be imagining things of coarse, like anyone else its possible its anecdotal evidence, but considering my group was literally the first group to complete ToMM, I think I have some idea of how classes perform near the top end.

zimxero

thefabricant said:

demarw2#2749 said:

Maybe you are right. But in ToMM you can see big differences between the DPS classes. And a good AoE damage is not important, if you are excluded from the highest trial with the best loot caused by your class choice.

Not really, I was talking about my experience inside both ToMM and IC. There are people performing well on every class, even DpS GF in ToMM. It is just a case of L2P. It might take the meta a while to adapt, but I am pretty sure when it eventually does, people will realize that all the classes can perform well.

I might just be imagining things of coarse, like anyone else its possible its anecdotal evidence, but considering my group was literally the first group to complete ToMM, I think I have some idea of how classes perform near the top end.

I was just thinking exactly that... Fighter DPS is the one class I have not seen much of so not sure where it is performing. All other classes I have seen at least one paragon match or exceed my HDPS, which is AoE heavy and single target light, so it might not do well in ToMM. I cannot try ToMM till i have a better computer to play on (one that doesn't shut off during combat).

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rainer

Nice to see that damage output for all classes finally seems to equalize. Of course it still is easier for some classes than others to achieve the creme de la creme for their class. Some classes are just harder to play correctly

Well done

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admiralwarlord

Well, as a main GWF character, I would easily trade the AOE damage the class has for the ST of its class. Just compare how many GWF's have the Lion's weapon set and how many CW's they have. So that the focus is not on class x vs class y, just see how many players from all other dps classes that were broken in mod 16 have this set. I could mention that there were more than 9 so that this balance that you see has happened. I also see problems among healers, OP is certainly much better than DC and SW. It would be nice to see numbers of ToMM and IC with the completion rates without an OP healer.

Finally, I will talk a little about the new dungeon, IC, now. Today when I finished the same on my GF Tank, I opened the store to look at what would serve there for the char, and realized that there is no item that is an encore for my tank. I intend to never run this dungeon again in this char. For my GWF only the helmet is bis, but it is an bis item only for IC! I remembered when he launched the K-Team, the only bis piece for dps was the helmet, after everyone got it done.

Perhaps for the players who are at the top of the pyramid, it may appear that everything is getting wonderful, but make sure it isn't!

coolgor28

IC as dangeon is a joke for maxed out character. As sharp pointed out in that dangeon all classes are viable and same dps.
The loot is a joke tho so not much to run it for only for the fun.

Sure op healer is better on first runs until you learn the dangeon but you can do it with every healer very easy.

Now for tomm the things have changed sure cw are a little ahead, but new king of tomm is other class.

For Barbie's as admiralwarlord they are doing fine there .
We usually farm tomm with 3 Barbie's at least sometimes 4 . Basically we farm tomm with any composition name one class that we don't run.

The problem is people that ask for special class etc as they don't know better don't know what every class can do.

nooneatza

I wanted to make a post like this for a few days now, indeed, congratulations to the dev team for the balancing.
I don't run any other content than tower so my experience is limited to that, but as far as i see all dps classes perform within 5%-10%(based on rng tbf) of each other(obviosuly, assuming the players are actually good). Haven't seen any fighter though.

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wilbur626

There will still be players that are plain bad at playing their class complaining that other classes are better than theirs.
I play tank characters only, and for me it is common to beat what looks like very well geared DPS toons in paingiver chart.
In my IC runs I have seen all DPS classes perform very well, including Dreadnaught fighter and Arbiter cleric.
I think that the recent balance adjustments worked really well, and that the problem from now on will be players blaming balance issues when the real problem is their own lack of competence.

Players experiencing lack of performance should not ask devs for balance, but ask other representatives of their class what they are doing wrong.

thefabricant

magdalena#1708 said:

I strongly advice all cws to start slowly building a control&debuff loadout. Although the mechanics does not help, it can be marginally done and it might be our only chance to be useful in the Zariel Trial.
.

I was in the first group to beat ToMM, on my wizard. I will probably be in the first group to beat zariel, on my wizard, playing as a dps. You can moan and complain as much as you like, it doesn't change reality.

Balanced doesn't mean that all classes do the same dps, it means that the difference is small enough so that the differences between classes does not matter. I can say with a high degree of certainty that this is the case.

pitshade

> @coolgor28#5062 said:
> The loot is a joke tho so not much to run it for only for the fun.
>

Send me the profit you made from that Xuna...

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thefabricant

magdalena#1708 said:

@thefabricant
For sure between 175k power other class and your 230k CW , you will be chosen as dps.
That does not mean that the class does not underperform.
Your high degree of certainty comes from a very , very , very limited experience.
Act log can not help you with general performance, unless you want to number crunch 2000 Act logs WITH the combat details you participated in.
I pug with all classes , all paragons, all levels each day. People knew that the Earth is round 4000 years before it was proven. Simple observation is enough.
.

Unless you are throwing out somewhere between 350,000-450,000 dps in every single ToMM run you do, you are not performing at the top of your class, or anywhere near it. That is the bracket I consider for top performance. I compare the top players across multiple alliances (THC, Thieves World, Infernal Paragons and some others) and the result I find is that the classes all perform roughly the same. I don't care how people perform in pug runs, pug runs represent the worst players in the game.

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wilbur626

> @magdalena#1708 said:
> @wilbur626 If you do not know why you outdamage a well geared dps- not because the dps is stupid but because he stays behind you.
> If you like door to door , probably the dps is dodging his life out too, trying to stay alive.
> If on top of that you can not keep aggro and the dps tanks while the healer heals you - paingiver for tank.
> .

There is a difference between being stupid and being bad at handling a DPS class.

I mostly run IC in pugs, and the one thing I know for sure after the latest balance patch, is that that DPS class makes no difference in determining if a run will be successful or not. Stat distribution and players skill is the only thing that matters.

The times I’m lucky enough to get into a really good group, I ask for input on how to improve my own play style.
If players that are still complaining about balance would do the same, Neverwinter would be a better place for everyone

rjc9000

thefabricant said:

magdalena#1708 said:

I strongly advice all cws to start slowly building a control&debuff loadout. Although the mechanics does not help, it can be marginally done and it might be our only chance to be useful in the Zariel Trial.
.

I was in the first group to beat ToMM, on my wizard. I will probably be in the first group to beat zariel, on my wizard, playing as a dps. You can moan and complain as much as you like, it doesn't change reality.

Balanced doesn't mean that all classes do the same dps, it means that the difference is small enough so that the differences between classes does not matter. I can say with a high degree of certainty that this is the case.

What encDPS is Sume pulling on Goofy Fighter?

I recall Lillith (Groo11) told me once that he was pulling 250,000 encDPS when Mod 18 dropped. Granted, that was when the Mod launched and also was when he was still finalizing his build, but I'm not sure how much a little extra Power here and there would suddenly raise your encDPS by 100,000+.

Also, Goofy Fighter is boring as hell to play, I'd gladly main lowtier goofy fighter if it actually was fun and interesting to build & play

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thefabricant

magdalena#1708 said:

@wilbur626
1.TIC was not designed to depend on dps for completion. TIC is your dungeon.
2.Class does not matter over 200k power. Try it with 3 dps of 170k power and class will matter.
3.You can see class difference right now in the number of wipes and in the run time.
4.I just can not congratulate devs on lie, lie that affects me also. I did not request buffing or nerfing.
I even suggested a new paragon made by cws themselves, no devs involved.
.
P.S. Please do not say the little damage check that can be passed by healer and tank alone.

Here you can see IC done with 3 dps that only have 110-125k power. There were 2 runs, the 2nd 1 took 35 minutes. IC is so easy with 170k power that you do not even need to think to finish it. TBH, even with 110-125k power it is not that difficult.

tom

thefabricant said:

magdalena#1708 said:

@thefabricant
For sure between 175k power other class and your 230k CW , you will be chosen as dps.
That does not mean that the class does not underperform.
Your high degree of certainty comes from a very , very , very limited experience.
Act log can not help you with general performance, unless you want to number crunch 2000 Act logs WITH the combat details you participated in.
I pug with all classes , all paragons, all levels each day. People knew that the Earth is round 4000 years before it was proven. Simple observation is enough.
.

Unless you are throwing out somewhere between 350,000-450,000 dps in every single ToMM run you do, you are not performing at the top of your class, or anywhere near it. That is the bracket I consider for top performance. I compare the top players across multiple alliances (THC, Thieves World, Infernal Paragons and some others) and the result I find is that the classes all perform roughly the same. I don't care how people perform in pug runs, pug runs represent the worst players in the game.

i agree that class balance is better then ever, but unless you have multiple warlocks with the unintended stacking of a particular feat, i dont see how i can go up to 350k let alone 450k dps on my warlock o.O

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tom

magdalena#1708 said:

@thefabricant
When I said that TIC is not BiS I got 7 lol.
When I said that meta for TIC is 3 tanks and 2 healers I got other lol.
Get a cleric healer and a barb tank and try it again at 120k power. I wait for that video.
.

Are you still harping on the CW nerfs, wizard is in a good spot, AoE lacks a bit, but singletarget is extremly strong. Get over it.

finmakin

coolgor28 said.
We usually farm tomm with 3 Barbie's at least sometimes 4 . Basically we farm tomm with any composition name one class that we don't run.

It's not about class, Its about kicking Dwarfs around (especially those with smelly feets)

rjc9000

coolgor28#5062 said:

We usually farm tomm with 3 Barbie's at least sometimes 4 . Basically we farm tomm with any composition name one class that we don't run.

I have yet to see you and the guild use any of these compositions:

A:
6x Warlock deeps
2x Warlock heals
insert any 2 tanks here

B:
6x goofy fighter deeps
2x goofy fighter tank
insert any 2 healers here

C:
6x Barbie deeps
2x Barbie tank
insert any 2 healers here

D :
6x Whisperknife Rogue
insert any composition of tanks and healers here

E:
6x Archery Ranger
insert any composition of tanks and healers here

F:
6x Thaumaturge Wizard
insert any composition of tanks and healers here

You guys never said the composition had to be something you guys actually had the classes for.

kors

rjc9000 said:

D :
6x Whisperknife Rogue
insert any composition of tanks and healers here

Not 6, but done with 1
And then we have Aymed as healer (SW). Waiting for you to carry us plebs Anri xD

finmakin

The game will become boring when every class is equal.
Each class has pro's and con's, deal with it instead of this endless bickering about class balance.
Hire a laywer and sue Cryptic for things you are lacking...
Dev's have done a great job with current situation.

note,
I need more popcorn

gabrieldourden

I'm not going to argue with @thefabricant on damage output, that's his field far more than mine.
As a ranger I can see that I can complete all content as melee warden with no big issues and decent positioning in the paingiver list with my 183k power before buffs. If I play hunter life is definitely harder, as burst is pretty good but sustained DPS is an issue. Anyway as he is referring to class balance and not path balance ,I can at least say that ranger is still in a decent spot.

What I really like in the original post is the sentence about playstile. Melee warden for example is absolutely boring to play. You are stuck into a fixed rotation and that's it. I fully agree that there will always be a "best" rotation for each combat situation, but there should be some room to change it and try something different without seeing your performance drop down to the ground.