> @abwabwaba said: > Mongol69 is on the right spot too with the assumption that the base problem of the Warlock damage output lies in the core mechanic of the class. I left a lil wall of text in another topic few days ago focused mostly on the feats but forgott to add such minor tweaks suggestion like changing one or two class features (to match my imaginary feat table) and casting animation time reduction... > If anyone might be interested the post can be found here: > https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1252907/wall-of-text-you-have-been-warned
I brought the core mechanics issue up back in March while still in preview...initially before magnitudes were nerfed in preview...warlocks have gone full circle and are back in the exact same situation from back in February/March on initial mod16 preview but with even lower damage output from 25%hfe nerf, additive damage changes, etc. They have literally just reverted back to similar magnitudes on preview before magnitudes nerf way back then. 😕
If they were actually gathering any statistics as they stated, it would show a blatant disparity. Even if they actually tried to test or even play a warlocks once the disparity is obvious.
During preview they nerfed damage initially when armies of immolation flames never dissipated but continually grew in numbers when it was obvious there was a large disparity.
Then they say they are going to again gather more info just before tomm released since warlocks were nonviable as healer or dps at that time. Of course, before they fix a big issue where a few warlocks did massively broken damage amounts due to a bug.
End result in tomm, wizards do about 50% more damage, tr, hr, barbi do about 30 to 40% more damage, arbiters and fighters do about 15% more damage. Sadly, even a pally or barbi tank loadout can be built to put up about the same amount of single target damage as a dps warlock.
"The plan" devs implemented for balance didn't work. With mod 18 coming around, this will be 3 mods the class will have been broken as dps. It's actually performing worse than the obc nerf, or any prior mod since implemented.
Last night in T9G, my friend's 22k level 78 Hunter Ranger did more damage than the 25k warlock in our group.
Anecdotal evidence like this is basically worthless ... It was ToNG, both characters were scaled down to 18K. If the scaling left the warlock with insufficient Armor Pen or Crit or something like that (Because they were getting the bulk of it from sources that do not scale well for example) then the HR will do far better. I've seen a 20K warlock out DPS a 25K CW. Does that mean anything? Yes ... it means the SW was a better player, but it doesn't mean anything about the state of the 2 classes.
I hope DPS Warlock to be deleted for Mod 18...There is no reason to still begging for a fix to be competent vs other classes, ok devs, you got fun making us being the WORST DPS class for ages? Time to stop and delete the class now...please.
The simple fact that creeping death was finally looked at by @noworries at the end of December, when it was tested and verified as broken with act logs back in March during initial preview of mod 16....makes me apprehensive of actual class balance let alone fixing core mechanic issues.
That about sums up how much they have tested, reviewed, or even attempted to fix the hellbringer paragon.
This is just one example even ater 9 months of players testing, confirming, generating logs, act logs, etc. showing how broken the paragon is and only a few other problems even addressed on the paragon up to this point.
The slight magnitude changes coming mod 18, just barely puts us close to the damage prior to additive buff change and removal of 25% damage from hfe in mod 17, which is still not even close to single target damage of wizard, rogue, barbi, or ranger. The only improvement is in aoe damage, which is as stated above reverted close to aoe from preview before it was nefed before mod 16 release. Not a single group looks for trash mob killers in content, especially in tomm. Still waiting on the promise of balance.
They just can improve us output dps via % bunus dmg always active in wait they fix all propely but seem they prefer not let us play think like TOMM i mean ok yu want balance us... But in wait give us boost total % dps so we are in line with other dps classes
Thanks for these changes some months ago... However, they are some requests we would really like for you developers to look into come MOD19. Perhaps some could be changed without having to wait so long (1 year) before these changes are implemented.
A problem I find when comparing classes, their power, and feats, when it came to Warlocks, EVERY single mechanic, class feature, and feats was completely separated which forced us to choose either or, and removed the competitiveness of warlocks (damage and power wise), compared to other classes. For example... Prior to our feats being changed, we could select damage stacks feats, plus executors gift, and creeping death. This was the Non-Pet tree. The pet tree provided other powers which BUFFED the pet and user... Perhaps, Cryptic can make a decision and provide these feats difference in MOD 19.... Whereby, if someone wants to run a soul puppet, allow feats to buff the soul puppet and user (somewhat).
Here is what I would love to see with these feats.... Implement something similar to what we previously had with Hellbringer and Damnation trees. Provide us with those distinctions.... One buffing Soul Puppet while other focuses on DoTs specialization, but while soul puppet gets buffs, lift some of the current offensive restrictions the soul puppet has, like crit severity, etc... Make it so the current owner's stats get duplicated into the soul puppet.
Hellbringer:
Dark Prayers now summons a soul puppet when an enemy cursed by you dies. This is an interested class feature... Whenever a mob with lesser curse dies, it applies a stack of Soul Investiture/Risky Investment. However, we have requested to make this an innate class aspect of the warlock due to the how the Soul Puppet works and how easy it is to kill which will wipe the current soul investiture stack, and extremely unfair to us having work 70sec to build up. Lets not have this feature be TIED to the Soul Puppet.
Soul Investiture is now a 10% damage increase for the Soul Puppet per stack. Not only should soul investiture increase the soul puppet damage, but also critical severity.
Risky Investment now grants a 4% bonus to damage for each stack of Soul Investiture. Not only was this feat nerfed but also Hellfire Expertise 25% damage bonus removed.
Killing Flames and Dreadtheft have been moved into the Hellbringer paragon encounter selection. KF is a decent power and the only one we have that truly hits over 300 magnitude. DT on the otherhand is extremely cumbersome, not only is the animation long, but also the cooldown timer after its animation. I would recommend this power to be instant. Despite it having a high magnitude, the period durings its animation and cooldown, we LOSE a lot of DPS. Either make it instant, or increase its magnitude to balance the damage per second.
Arms of Hadar and Blades of Vanquished Armies moved into the Warlock general encounters. These two powers are cute... seriously... the developer who created these powers just wanted to get cute, but never thought about usability and damage per second... Arms of Hadar - Animation has to go!!!!! We warlocks have ONLY two powers for PvP, supposedly.... AoH and Hadar's Grasp... AoH prones the target, and HG stuns and lifts them in the air. Sadly, AoH doesn't work due to slow animation, and players just evade it ALL the time... I have NEVER gotten a player in PvP prone using this skill. AoH needs to become an instant power similar to HG but that slams the target down to the ground... And remove the stackable timer, and give it a regular timer (12-14 second with 325 magnitude). Allow it to CURSE CONSUME for soul investiture/risky investment.
Give us a USABLE power in addition to HG for pvp, and this solution can be it.
Hellfire Expertise no longer increases Fire and Necrotic Damage. We need this back... Like seriously, what were you thinking?
Soul Sparks now increase Hellbringer damage by 0.25% per spark
Warlock's Curse increased to a 12% damage boost.
Dark Spiral magnitude - 80-240 Spirals creation should be based on timer to compensation Boss Fights without any mobs, create a spiral every 5 sec.
Arms of Hadar magnitude - 55 per hit No longer stackable timer, instead on a 13second timer with 325 Magnitude instant (NO MORE ANIMATION), slams the target to the ground proning them for 2 seconds. Also allow it to CURSE CONSUME and grant a soul puppet for Soul Investiture/Risky Investment stacking.... With this change... Now we truly have a full single target encounter loadout - AoH, HG, and KF. (Same wording as above)
Vampiric Embrace magnitude - 250 Move this power to Soulweavers ONLY. Give Temp shield 50% of HP as YELLOW SHIELD (Not to override Healadin shield), and healing component to apply to all RAID members of 250 heal magnitude. Does not apply lesser curse, so curse must be applied for effects to take place.
Curse Bite magnitude - 250 Encounter reduction powers currently DO NOT affect this encounter... It has its own internal CD. Extremly lame. And sometimes, the power doesn't fire off, when playing at a fast pace. Would like for the encounter stack to work with encounter reduction boons, powers, and items.
Blades of Vanquished Armies magnitude - 20 per blade Increase blades to 40 magnitude per blade... I believe there is a 13 hit counter. And make it apply lesser curse.
Hadars Grasp magnitude - 200 HG must be increased to 325 magnitude, relatively to other powers is extremely low for a control power. We no longer have Hellfire Expertise damage bonus, encounters must be increase to compensate.
Fiery Bolt magnitude - 175 This should apply to ALL TARGET within 15 feets of main target at 250 magnitude.
Infernal Spheres magnitude - 40 Sorta useless, but interesting to have.
Killing Flame magnitude - 500 KF magnitude should be between 500-700, specially when the target is prone or stunned to hit on the higher side.
Dreadtheft magnitude - 340 The damage per second of this encounter is really bad.... Not only is the animation crazy long, and the toon cannot do anything during this time, but the cooldown is long. I recommend making it instant blast, same timer, with a damage boost/debuff on target (10% dmg debuff and target takes 10% dmg). DC and CW have such powers, why DONT we?
Hellfire Ring magnitude - 120, DoT 200 per second or divided??? Current HR damage does not account for 200 DoT total damage but much less. Also, all targets that enter after it has been applied should be hit with LESSER CURSE, NOT only on initial HIT; To make this work, every tick should apply lesser curse.
Soul Scorch magnitude - 9 per spark used, Dot is 1.5 magnitude per spark I really dislike this power and how we are forced to using S/S on RB and not given the option to change it for any other power, and how feats are tied to this. First of, S/S is extremely weak. Its magnitude should be increase drastically. It's an additional power that is consuming soul sparks (damage %) to hit a target... Extremely counterproductive... Matter of fact, we are the ONLY class that is currently experiencing this counter-productiveness.....Other classes have synergy ....
I recommend putting it on a timer 11 seconds. S/S magnitude should be around 225 with 20 magnitude per DoT per second for 5 seconds. No longer consumes Soul Sparks, which we will use to build damage % during fights.
Accursed Souls magnitude - 900 One of the best AoE dailies in the game... The only gripe I have with it, is that it should stack Soul Investiture on all targets killed with lesser curse applied for an instant 5x stack (if of course it kills 5 mobs)
Brood of Hadar tooltip changed to display damage done to the primary target and the magnitude was increased. 600 magnitude main target, 150 magnitude per brood attack. The total damage is 1200, the only issue we have, is that the 150 magnitude per brood attack does not CRIT. Please make these possible DoTs crit for us.
Tyrannical Curse magnitude - 900 No Change here.
Gates of Hell magnitude - 750 This shouldn't be a location target the way it currently is.... Make instant AoE off the warlock covering 50 feet around the warlock, proning all targets for 2 seconds.
Flames of Phlegethos magnitude - 1000 This is one lame daily.... FoP should do 1000 initial magnitude, with 200 magnitude per tick for 3 seconds to surrounding mobs. And allow it to crit.
On ENCHANTMENT: Dread is similar to Bilethorn stats wise, however, Bilethorn poison damage crits, while Dread physical damage does not. This is one vast difference... The damage type should be looked into as to why it is the reason damage crits while others aren't.
Soulweaver:
Lifebind reduced to taking 10% of damage dealt to allies. Switched from an increase in Defense to an increase in Damage Reduction The damage resistance of this spell is meager, it should be 10%.
Feat Transfusion Tactics changed to Mending Mastery and increases outgoing healing by 5% Should be 10% outgoing heal not 5% (Our magnitudes are low, boost the % at least)
Prince of Hell is now 5000 Armor Penetration This class feature is useless..... Seriously.
Dark Revelry now increases teammates Awareness and Critical Avoidance by 5000 Dark Revelry used to be the FACTO feat why we became healers in the first place, to turn it into, a useless feat is what Cryptics does best! I understand the encounter ring
RAID healing abilities ? Increase our healing magnitudes of encounters and dailies?
There are several fundemental issues with the Warlock.
* The self-buff takes far too long to achieve. By the time we're lucky enough to hit it, the enemy has already been nuked by other DPS. * The self-buff should not be reliant on a AI controlled puppet that doesn't move away from red-areas - it's a major drawback for the class. * The class does not synergize well. several powers are at odds with one another and sometimes just interfere. * A blanket increase to magnitudes isn't the solution to the problem, correct class design is the real issue; several CW powers have a fairly low magnitude but due to their self-buffs and good synergy it performs well.
This same level of thought and detail must be applied to the Warlock. This class has been underperforming for far too many mods. The community was promised that the class re-work in mod 16 would be balanced by Mod 17 and all DPS would be dealing close to the same amount as each other (player skill notwithstanding). This was not delivered as promised and nor has it been delivered in Mod 18.
With all due respect, given the past (many) failed promises of fixing underperforming classes, why should we believe that Mod 19 will be any different?
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Comments
> Mongol69 is on the right spot too with the assumption that the base problem of the Warlock damage output lies in the core mechanic of the class. I left a lil wall of text in another topic few days ago focused mostly on the feats but forgott to add such minor tweaks suggestion like changing one or two class features (to match my imaginary feat table) and casting animation time reduction...
> If anyone might be interested the post can be found here:
> https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1252907/wall-of-text-you-have-been-warned
I brought the core mechanics issue up back in March while still in preview...initially before magnitudes were nerfed in preview...warlocks have gone full circle and are back in the exact same situation from back in February/March on initial mod16 preview but with even lower damage output from 25%hfe nerf, additive damage changes, etc. They have literally just reverted back to similar magnitudes on preview before magnitudes nerf way back then.
😕
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1246512/mod16-warlock-concerns
During preview they nerfed damage initially when armies of immolation flames never dissipated but continually grew in numbers when it was obvious there was a large disparity.
Then they say they are going to again gather more info just before tomm released since warlocks were nonviable as healer or dps at that time. Of course, before they fix a big issue where a few warlocks did massively broken damage amounts due to a bug.
End result in tomm, wizards do about 50% more damage, tr, hr, barbi do about 30 to 40% more damage, arbiters and fighters do about 15% more damage. Sadly, even a pally or barbi tank loadout can be built to put up about the same amount of single target damage as a dps warlock.
"The plan" devs implemented for balance didn't work. With mod 18 coming around, this will be 3 mods the class will have been broken as dps. It's actually performing worse than the obc nerf, or any prior mod since implemented.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
That about sums up how much they have tested, reviewed, or even attempted to fix the hellbringer paragon.
This is just one example even ater 9 months of players testing, confirming, generating logs, act logs, etc. showing how broken the paragon is and only a few other problems even addressed on the paragon up to this point.
The slight magnitude changes coming mod 18, just barely puts us close to the damage prior to additive buff change and removal of 25% damage from hfe in mod 17, which is still not even close to single target damage of wizard, rogue, barbi, or ranger. The only improvement is in aoe damage, which is as stated above reverted close to aoe from preview before it was nefed before mod 16 release. Not a single group looks for trash mob killers in content, especially in tomm. Still waiting on the promise of balance.
A problem I find when comparing classes, their power, and feats, when it came to Warlocks, EVERY single mechanic, class feature, and feats was completely separated which forced us to choose either or, and removed the competitiveness of warlocks (damage and power wise), compared to other classes. For example... Prior to our feats being changed, we could select damage stacks feats, plus executors gift, and creeping death. This was the Non-Pet tree. The pet tree provided other powers which BUFFED the pet and user... Perhaps, Cryptic can make a decision and provide these feats difference in MOD 19.... Whereby, if someone wants to run a soul puppet, allow feats to buff the soul puppet and user (somewhat).
Here is what I would love to see with these feats.... Implement something similar to what we previously had with Hellbringer and Damnation trees. Provide us with those distinctions.... One buffing Soul Puppet while other focuses on DoTs specialization, but while soul puppet gets buffs, lift some of the current offensive restrictions the soul puppet has, like crit severity, etc... Make it so the current owner's stats get duplicated into the soul puppet.
Hellbringer:
This is an interested class feature... Whenever a mob with lesser curse dies, it applies a stack of Soul Investiture/Risky Investment. However, we have requested to make this an innate class aspect of the warlock due to the how the Soul Puppet works and how easy it is to kill which will wipe the current soul investiture stack, and extremely unfair to us having work 70sec to build up. Lets not have this feature be TIED to the Soul Puppet.
Not only should soul investiture increase the soul puppet damage, but also critical severity.
Not only was this feat nerfed but also Hellfire Expertise 25% damage bonus removed.
KF is a decent power and the only one we have that truly hits over 300 magnitude. DT on the otherhand is extremely cumbersome, not only is the animation long, but also the cooldown timer after its animation. I would recommend this power to be instant. Despite it having a high magnitude, the period durings its animation and cooldown, we LOSE a lot of DPS. Either make it instant, or increase its magnitude to balance the damage per second.
These two powers are cute... seriously... the developer who created these powers just wanted to get cute, but never thought about usability and damage per second...
Arms of Hadar - Animation has to go!!!!! We warlocks have ONLY two powers for PvP, supposedly.... AoH and Hadar's Grasp... AoH prones the target, and HG stuns and lifts them in the air. Sadly, AoH doesn't work due to slow animation, and players just evade it ALL the time... I have NEVER gotten a player in PvP prone using this skill. AoH needs to become an instant power similar to HG but that slams the target down to the ground... And remove the stackable timer, and give it a regular timer (12-14 second with 325 magnitude). Allow it to CURSE CONSUME for soul investiture/risky investment.
Give us a USABLE power in addition to HG for pvp, and this solution can be it.
We need this back... Like seriously, what were you thinking?
- Dark Spiral magnitude - 80-240
- Hellish Rebuke magnitude - 40 base, 10 DoT, 20 Rebuke
- Arms of Hadar magnitude - 55 per hit
- Vampiric Embrace magnitude - 250
- Curse Bite magnitude - 250
- Blades of Vanquished Armies magnitude - 20 per blade
- Hadars Grasp magnitude - 200
- Fiery Bolt magnitude - 175
- Infernal Spheres magnitude - 40
- Killing Flame magnitude - 500
- Dreadtheft magnitude - 340
- Hellfire Ring magnitude - 120, DoT 200 per second or divided???
- Soul Scorch magnitude - 9 per spark used, Dot is 1.5 magnitude per spark
- Accursed Souls magnitude - 900
- Brood of Hadar tooltip changed to display damage done to the primary target and the magnitude was increased. 600 magnitude main target, 150 magnitude per brood attack.
- Tyrannical Curse magnitude - 900
- Gates of Hell magnitude - 750
- Flames of Phlegethos magnitude - 1000
On ENCHANTMENT:Spirals creation should be based on timer to compensation Boss Fights without any mobs, create a spiral every 5 sec.
50 base, 10 DoT, 30 Rebuke (Increase)
No longer stackable timer, instead on a 13second timer with 325 Magnitude instant (NO MORE ANIMATION), slams the target to the ground proning them for 2 seconds. Also allow it to CURSE CONSUME and grant a soul puppet for Soul Investiture/Risky Investment stacking.... With this change... Now we truly have a full single target encounter loadout - AoH, HG, and KF. (Same wording as above)
Move this power to Soulweavers ONLY. Give Temp shield 50% of HP as YELLOW SHIELD (Not to override Healadin shield), and healing component to apply to all RAID members of 250 heal magnitude. Does not apply lesser curse, so curse must be applied for effects to take place.
Encounter reduction powers currently DO NOT affect this encounter... It has its own internal CD. Extremly lame. And sometimes, the power doesn't fire off, when playing at a fast pace. Would like for the encounter stack to work with encounter reduction boons, powers, and items.
Increase blades to 40 magnitude per blade... I believe there is a 13 hit counter. And make it apply lesser curse.
HG must be increased to 325 magnitude, relatively to other powers is extremely low for a control power. We no longer have Hellfire Expertise damage bonus, encounters must be increase to compensate.
This should apply to ALL TARGET within 15 feets of main target at 250 magnitude.
Sorta useless, but interesting to have.
KF magnitude should be between 500-700, specially when the target is prone or stunned to hit on the higher side.
The damage per second of this encounter is really bad.... Not only is the animation crazy long, and the toon cannot do anything during this time, but the cooldown is long. I recommend making it instant blast, same timer, with a damage boost/debuff on target (10% dmg debuff and target takes 10% dmg). DC and CW have such powers, why DONT we?
Current HR damage does not account for 200 DoT total damage but much less. Also, all targets that enter after it has been applied should be hit with LESSER CURSE, NOT only on initial HIT; To make this work, every tick should apply lesser curse.
I really dislike this power and how we are forced to using S/S on RB and not given the option to change it for any other power, and how feats are tied to this. First of, S/S is extremely weak. Its magnitude should be increase drastically. It's an additional power that is consuming soul sparks (damage %) to hit a target... Extremely counterproductive... Matter of fact, we are the ONLY class that is currently experiencing this counter-productiveness.....Other classes have synergy ....
I recommend putting it on a timer 11 seconds. S/S magnitude should be around 225 with 20 magnitude per DoT per second for 5 seconds. No longer consumes Soul Sparks, which we will use to build damage % during fights.
One of the best AoE dailies in the game... The only gripe I have with it, is that it should stack Soul Investiture on all targets killed with lesser curse applied for an instant 5x stack (if of course it kills 5 mobs)
The total damage is 1200, the only issue we have, is that the 150 magnitude per brood attack does not CRIT. Please make these possible DoTs crit for us.
No Change here.
This shouldn't be a location target the way it currently is.... Make instant AoE off the warlock covering 50 feet around the warlock, proning all targets for 2 seconds.
This is one lame daily.... FoP should do 1000 initial magnitude, with 200 magnitude per tick for 3 seconds to surrounding mobs. And allow it to crit.
Dread is similar to Bilethorn stats wise, however, Bilethorn poison damage crits, while Dread physical damage does not. This is one vast difference... The damage type should be looked into as to why it is the reason damage crits while others aren't.
Soulweaver:
The damage resistance of this spell is meager, it should be 10%.
Should be 10% outgoing heal not 5% (Our magnitudes are low, boost the % at least)
This class feature is useless..... Seriously.
Dark Revelry used to be the FACTO feat why we became healers in the first place, to turn it into, a useless feat is what Cryptics does best! I understand the encounter ring
* The self-buff takes far too long to achieve. By the time we're lucky enough to hit it, the enemy has already been nuked by other DPS.
* The self-buff should not be reliant on a AI controlled puppet that doesn't move away from red-areas - it's a major drawback for the class.
* The class does not synergize well. several powers are at odds with one another and sometimes just interfere.
* A blanket increase to magnitudes isn't the solution to the problem, correct class design is the real issue; several CW powers have a fairly low magnitude but due to their self-buffs and good synergy it performs well.
This same level of thought and detail must be applied to the Warlock. This class has been underperforming for far too many mods. The community was promised that the class re-work in mod 16 would be balanced by Mod 17 and all DPS would be dealing close to the same amount as each other (player skill notwithstanding). This was not delivered as promised and nor has it been delivered in Mod 18.
With all due respect, given the past (many) failed promises of fixing underperforming classes, why should we believe that Mod 19 will be any different?
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================