Some addition: - Previous run you didn't come yet went bit better as my % of top wizard damage gap was 53% instead of 69%. We have a few more deaths that justify the gap between that run from this one. That doesn't change anything as class is still performing bad, but nobody was thinking about preview changes would have fixed anything and devs themselves stated that's not a balancing patch, rather a nerf mitigation. At this point if no time for a few simple redesign choice already suggested returning back the 25% buff from hellfire expertise as addition to these changes could be welcome as a short term solution, at least to stop the feeling of being carried. - I was running debuff arti on both runs, not sure who other was, but that's not relevant as even with decanter/SSC wouldn't have the chance to cast dailies on each because one of warlock's major issue in TotMM is we don't have the chance to time daily on each debuff phase due to poor ap gain
on the bright side: - ranger's damage looks closer to top wizards, at least they got benefit from changes - we beated Halaster
I don't get it. They take away a big buff and spend tons of time on fixing/rebalancing all powers arround it to come to the same result ? I couldn't find a better way to waste my time instead of spending this efforts on a meaningful and productive rebalance of a class, where tons of feedback was given during the last month. I name it and I don't see any reason to do it in a polite way, since that's what it is: A big waste of time-> on both sides.
I don't get it. They take away a big buff and spend tons of time on fixing/rebalancing all powers arround it to come to the same result ? I couldn't find a better way to waste my time instead of spending this efforts on a meaningful and productive rebalance of a class, where tons of feedback was given during the last month. I name it and I don't see any reason to do it in a polite way, since that's what it is: A big waste of time-> on both sides.
Could be wrong too, but update on damage formula just required further adjustment to recover original state and fixing magnitude was both the most efficient and the fastest way to implement that. Adjusting some classes' performance require more work tho. On the bright side new formula - finally ends that nonsense of critical hits adding to combat advantage - (with some adjustment) should make the balance process easier on the long term. - provided other classes some (small) improvements Also devs have all the datas and got no impediments now to focus on a proper class balance. I completely agree with you and with many of the players posting here that in the short term this plan is arguable and tweaks needs to come asap. Resources are a few but plenty of "cheap" solutions provided as well.
I don't get it. They take away a big buff and spend tons of time on fixing/rebalancing all powers arround it to come to the same result ? I couldn't find a better way to waste my time instead of spending this efforts on a meaningful and productive rebalance of a class, where tons of feedback was given during the last month. I name it and I don't see any reason to do it in a polite way, since that's what it is: A big waste of time-> on both sides.
Could be wrong too, but update on damage formula just required further adjustment to recover original state and fixing magnitude was both the most efficient and the fastest way to implement that. Adjusting some classes' performance require more work tho. On the bright side new formula - finally ends that nonsense of critical hits adding to combat advantage - (with some adjustment) should make the balance process easier on the long term. - provided other classes some (small) improvements Also devs have all the datas and got no impediments now to focus on a proper class balance. I completely agree with you and with many of the players posting here that in the short term this plan is arguable and tweaks needs to come asap. Resources are a few but plenty of "cheap" solutions provided as well.
I try to underline my point. Not sure how those different layer work tbh, if RI is multiplcative like 1.05x1.05 etc. They knew warlock was "balanced" on multiplicative instead additive. Even though it was told many times, the class based on this bug is in a poor state.
Live vs. preview At maximum buff (in theory) wich rarely happens once in a run, since RI doesn't stack >2 average and Dailies are not up 24/7. multipl.:1.1(WC)x1.25(RI max-encounter)x1.045(sparks max)x1.1(execut.-average)x1.15 (TC)x1.05 (DtD)= damage x 1.9 additive: ->1.7 so in the end you deal about 11% less maximum Effectively buffs on a warlock (no curseconsume) infight look maybe like this multipl:1.1(WC) x 1.1 (Ri) x 1.0225(15 sparks) x 1.1 (excut-average) x 1.05 (DtD)= damage x 1.42 at best additive: 1.37 maybe 4% less damage
Now they take away a 25% buff on top an balance all stuff according to the missing damage, wich consumes a lot of time instead sticking with
RI now 4-20% instead 5-25% sparks: 4,5% up to 7.5% WC: 12% instead 10% under the line a no-curse consuming build runnning NPNM+DtD (minority) will get: 2xRI 8% + 15sparks 3.25% + WC 12% + exec 10% + DtD 5% = 38,25% -> worse than 42% and a Curse consuming (NPNM+ACC) build gets: 2xRI 8% + 15 sparks 3,25% + 10% = 21,25% worse than 23,7%, the more RI stacked the worse it get's.. So our damage is lower due to missing buffs.
About magnitudes: Killing Flame: 400-600 x 1.25=600-750 - same Hadar Grasp: 175 x1.25=218,75 - significant worse, only 200 and missing last tick Fiery Bolt: 125 x 1.25= 156.25 - Significant better Curse Bite 150 x 1.25= 187.5 - significant better , its 250 now wich may compensate for the buff WC got 12% HfR: 75/180 x1.25=93,75/225 vs 120/200 same about, if not bugged as now on preview Soul Scorch: 6/1x6 per spark=108/18x6=216 at full load, vs 162/27x6= 324 - significant buff Accursed Souls: 900 instead 937 - lower Brood of Hadar 550 x 1,25 + 6x100x 1.25= 687.5+750=1437.5 vs 1500 - buffed slightly TC 800x 1.25=1000 vs 900 nerfed slightly
Pro: Soul Scorch is the only thing to mention in a positive way. Curse Bite may lead to a oneway decisions concerning setups, AoE/Focus damage improved Fiery Bolt better AoE
Contra: Soul puppet deals lower damage Hadar Grasp lower damage lower overall damage from buffs , about 4-7%(max), wich deletes the small step forward you gain by better Soul Scorch
All in all the warlock will stay as now or might be even worse in ranking since additive buffs will be lower than actual mutiplicative buffs and buffs in total got not adjusted adaequately to compensate. The class will have the same core problems as before, where it took a lot of time to adjust some power for an back due to deleting Hellfire Expertise, instead of "fixing" the class and impoving gameplay, clap clap. Effectiveness of this "pushing and pulling numbers" = zero to minus 10 What stays is the general impression: " Hey, you got that rework done, don't ask for more !"
I agree with almost all of this except the part about hadars grasp.
Yes it is a magnitude nerf compared to live, there's not question about that, but the last tick is not missing, it ticks 6 times which is how its supposed to be. 1 tick per every 0.5 seconds of hold time.
Yes it used to tick 5 times and 7 times, but this was leading to the magnitudes being wildly incorrect and hadars grasp was doing more damage than it should of done for the stated magnitudes plus buffs. I highlighted this as a "possible" bug in one of my posts in the nine hells section a few months ago, along with the Soul Puppets Crit severity not working for along time.
Both of these have since been corrected in a "stealth fix" an undocumented correction that was never mentioned in any Patch Notes.
But yeah these slight magnitude changes and the crit severity change in the damage formula, more or less negate the loss of damage we lost from buffs multiplying together. but it doesn't really change anything. its buts us back to square 1 in the same position we are on live, 30% or more behind the ranger rogue and wizard.
Edit: yes I want the class to do more damage, but not through exploiting bugged mechanics/class features/encounters. id rather everything be working as intended, and adjust from there, than get used to using something that's broken for a damage boost, only to have it yanked away later.
I agree with almost all of this except the part about hadars grasp.
Yes it is a magnitude nerf compared to live, there's not question about that, but the last tick is not missing, it ticks 6 times which is how its supposed to be. 1 tick per every 0.5 seconds of hold time.
Yes it used to tick 5 times and 7 times, but this was leading to the magnitudes being wildly incorrect and hadars grasp was doing more damage than it should of done for the stated magnitudes plus buffs. I highlighted this as a "possible" bug in one of my posts in the nine hells section a few months ago, along with the Soul Puppets Crit severity not working for along time.
Both of these have since been corrected in a "stealth fix" an undocumented correction that was never mentioned in any Patch Notes.
But yeah these slight magnitude changes and the crit severity change in the damage formula, more or less negate the loss of damage we lost from buffs multiplying together. but it doesn't really change anything. its buts us back to square 1 in the same position we are on live, 30% or more behind the ranger rogue and wizard.
Edit: yes I want the class to do more damage, but not through exploiting bugged mechanics/class features/encounters. id rather everything be working as intended, and adjust from there, than get used to using something that's broken for a damage boost, only to have it yanked away later.
Sry the maths seems to be a bit wrong or i am just confusing myself. Let's focus on the %dmg buffs only. On live you are currently doing multiplicative damage with buffs and additive currently, so effectively it's a nerf to all 4 classes except barb/cleric and fighter.
So if your preview dps that is suppose to be using %additive damage is matched with ur live (multiplicative dps) then how is that you being in square 1? I mean, the other pure dps classes have gotten a nerf to their %multiplicative damage, whilst you have not?
Or are you telling me that your overall dps including the whole of the formula is the same as live, i.e. you haven't received around 33% increase in damage on preview in comparison to live? If this is the case, you are in trouble, because you will be doing way too less damage as you already were behind live, and now the preview is also not improving your dps but other classes are getting a buff.
you are confusing yourself. warlock buffs are currently multiplicative , so we are losing damage from there. The crit severity Buff basically negates that loss The 50% nerf to soul puppet means we lost about 5-7% damage total The nerf of risky investment to 20% down from 25% is about a 2% dps loss The slight magnitude increase on at wills, ( and I do mean slight) and the buff to soul scorch roughly negates that
the only significant change will be to AoE from cursebite Fiery bolt got such a small increase that with the buff formula change it wont be any different
So ye the overall dps including the whole formula is about the same as live, if not even slightly weaker
So if we assume wizard rogues and rangers are in the same boat, that there will basically stay the same as live, being the damage lost from buffs is gained back from Crit severity. this may not be the case but assume it will be, and clerics barbarians and Fighters ARE getting a 33% buff, since they are already use additive buffs and warlocks, for the sake of argument stay the same( maybe weaker).
SO currently on live dps rankings is roughly Rogue/wizard roughly equal, 100% Ranger /98% Warlock 70% barbarian 70% Cleric 70% Fighter 67%
Assuming crit sev is going to be a 33% dps increase.
now on preview is going to be more like
Rogue/wizard 100% - about the same Ranger - 98% - about the same Barbarian 93% - 33% increase Cleric 93% - 33% increase Fighter 89% - 33% increase Warlock - 70% - about the same
this is all based on assumptions of course. I have not personally tested any of the other classes only warlock and I do about the same dps on preview as on live. Everyone should test their own stuff out and see if the crit sev change really is a 33% increase or not.
So if we assume wizard rogues and rangers are in the same boat, that there will basically stay the same as live, being the damage lost from buffs is gained back from Crit severity. this may not be the case but assume it will be, and clerics barbarians and Fighters ARE getting a 33% buff, since they are already use additive buffs and warlocks, for the sake of argument stay the same( maybe weaker).
SO currently on live dps rankings is roughly Rogue/wizard roughly equal, 100% Ranger /98% Warlock 70% barbarian 70% Cleric 70% Fighter 67%
Assuming crit sev is going to be a 33% dps increase.
now on preview is going to be more like
Rogue/wizard 100% - about the same Ranger - 98% - about the same Barbarian 93% - 33% increase Cleric 93% - 33% increase Fighter 89% - 33% increase Warlock - 70% - about the same
this is all based on assumptions of course. I have not personally tested any of the other classes only warlock and I do about the same dps on preview as on live. Everyone should test their own stuff out and see if the crit sev change really is a 33% increase or not.
I can clarify that by showing you my dps live and on preview when i get home but i think you're confusing yourself. All classes are doing more damage now, including pure dps.
The other confusion is that multiplicative buffs means a buff, not a nerf. The classes that use multiplicative buff on live are getting a nerf to their dps by swapping them to additive. But the buff to CA and crit makes up for that and more.
So the maths is that currently barb/cleric and fighter are doing 33% more damage on preview than live (althought not exactly from my maths). Wiz and other pure classes are instead doing around 20-25% more damage on preview. So the former 3 classes are getting about max 10%-15% or so buff to their damage in comparison to other dps. We will find out by testing more.
Either you are explaining yourself badly or you are talking nonsense. at what point have I said multiplicative Buffs are a nerf?
Any class that have multiplying buffs on LIVE are doing more damage intended, the more buffs they have the bigger the increase. This means Warlock rangers wizards rogues Any class that has multiplying buffs on live is getting NERFED, The more separate percentage buffs you have, the bigger the Decrease. This means warlocks rangers wizards rogues
EVERY CLASS is being buffed by the Crit Severity change. the more Base crit severity you have, and the more access to CLASS ONLY crit severity buffs, the bigger the buff.
So if what you say is true, and Wizards are doing more damage on live, then it means they suffer less from the multiplicative to additive change, because they have less stacking buffs than warlocks.
Wizard: Intellect 7% arcane mastery 15% chilling presence 6% ( not sure if this is used) ray of enfeeblement 10%. total 43.5% on live, VS 38% on Preview
Warlock: Intellect 7% Soul sparks 4.5% Hellfire Expertise 25% Warlocks curse 10% Executioners gift 0-20% ( 10% average), Risky Investment 25% Total, 111.5% on live, VS 56.5% on Preview Hellfire expertise is removed, risky investment nerfed to 20%, soul sparks buffed to 7.5% warlocks curse buffed to 12%
Wizards lose 5.5% from the damage multiplier from class buffs Warlocks lose 155% from the damage multiplier from calls buffs
See the difference? this is even taking a average for Executioners gift, not the maximum 20%. when you start adding none class buff the gap is even worse. If this doesnt show you why warlocks are suffering more from this change than anyone else, then please stop commenting, you already said you dont play warlock
The change towards CS and CA will buff all classes as I understood. In the sum all classes should deal more damage. * What I wrote only counts for magnitudes and %buffs, changed from multiplcative to additive for those 4 classes, leading to a smaller buff in the end the more a class based on %buffs the bigger the dps loss.
I am pretty sure that Arbiter, Fighter, Barbie won't close the gap towards TR, CW, Hunter - difference is too much. All in all you can estimate from all the changes on warlocks side, that the class will be significantly downgraded compared to Arbiter, Barbie, Dreadnaught and distance towards those 3 leading classes will stay same more or less, since there was no significant buff for the class in the end. They took something (Soulpuppet/RI), they gave something (SoulScorch, CB).
* if not the nerf towards Vorpal equals out all that theoretical +dps
I pretty much don't know what buffs on warlocks side work multiplicative, if Hellfire Expertise is a multiplicative layer same as RI like 1.05x1.05x1.05 etc, the endresult for warlocks will be even more depremising as @tempus86#1158 wrote above- looks pretty awefull if that 211,5% is for real
Warlock: Intellect 7% Soul sparks 4.5% Hellfire Expertise 25% Warlocks curse 10% Executioners gift 0-20% ( 10% average), Risky Investment 25% Total, 211.5% on live, VS 56.5% on Preview Hellfire expertise is removed, risky investment nerfed to 20%, soul sparks buffed to 7.5% warlocks curse buffed to 12%
ouch, that number is tough. Thats what I complained for in the other post. Its not just the 25% from he, the switch to additive kills the warlock. For that better delete the class, give us a fancy title and some millons of ad or the chance to move our stuff and then start working on the long time expected new class. Bc warlock is turning into boring and heavily underperforming
Just to be clear, the percentages the final losses are abit misleading so I will clarify better.
we get 111.5% buffs from class features etc. this is a (x 2.11) modifier on LIVE we get 56.5% buffs from class features etc on preview, its is a (x1.565) modifier on PREVIEW
So, we are losing 26% damage from the Buff change IF you do 100,000 dps, with the buff change you now do 74,000DPS, To get back up to 100,000 you need to get a 35.14% buff (74,000 x 1.3514 = 100,004 DPS)
So if the Crit Severity change is supposed to be a 33% buff, we are still doing less overall and again, this is only with class buffs alone. when you start adding demo Set and Ebony Rings and Tempters gloves and mount powers and Artifacts into the mix this the gap is even bigger
Warlocks wizards rogues and ranger are multiplicative on live. Arbiter, barbi and fighter are additive.
All multiplicative classes changing to additive. That reduces damage for multiplicative and puts them more in line with additive. Problem is that warlocks are performing onpar with additive dps classes in live currently.
Once those changes made warlocks are reduced below performance of all dps classes.
Then nerfs from hellfire expertise 25% and si stacks 5%, slight increase from full sparks by 2.5% and slight increase to curse damage %. Majority of increases to magnitudes are not inline with damage loss from warlock class nerfs.
End result is damage reduction from class changes and multiplicative to additive changes. Then, all classes recieve increased damage from crit sev, ca, buff changes to damage equations so no improvement there to offset damage reductions to warlock class dps role.
Warlocks have recieved an overall nerf plus lowered damage in relation to all dps classes.
@schietindebux it was a mistake, it should say 111,5% buff not 211,5%, its a 2.115 multiplier ( 1+ 1.115) Even though I always think of hellfire expertise as automatically increasing magnitudes by 25% because its a default skill, not a choice, the same can be said of any buff alone since they are all separate in the formula but its still a percentage buff. 1, 2 ,3 ,4 ,5. multiplied in any order is always 120, that's kinda how it works.
so for us its BASE damage x 1.07 x 1.045 x 1.25 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.25 = 2.114000234 or 2.114 multiplier from class buffs
then you could add in the rest, for 2 ebony rings and the tempters gloves, that's 2.114 x 1.03 x 1.03 x 1.03 2.31 modifier 131%
Id also like to point out that its only a 33% increase to hits that deal both combat advantage AND Crit. Normal hits and Combat Advantage hits will be unchanged.
Normal hit = base damage x buffs no change CA hit = base damage x 2 x buffs no change Crit hit = base x 2 x buffs= no change Crit CA = base x 2 x 2 x buffs VS base x 3 x buffs = 33% increase
Assuming 100% CA up time , and 50% crit, that's 0 normal hits, 50% CA only hits and 50% CA+Crit hits. So even best case scenario the crit severity change is really only going to give 16.5% DPS increase on average, if you have 100% crit severity. This will increase slightly the more crit severity you have obviously but its nowhere near a 33% overall increase.
Only to give a comparison. After very short testings on my Dreadnaught, i deal significant more damage on live. Setup: %gear: 2x3%, 5%, 0-20%, CS 105, 122k power, 95k CA, Bronzewood r13 Fully buffed: Anvil before 400k, Anvil now 600k max crit Mow Down: before 600k+ now up to 1 mio+
My Warlock: 2x3%, 5%, 0-20%, 2.5%, 3% , power 150k power 123k CA, CS 117% (formerly 144.5%), vorpal r 13 The class is on a similar level concerning dps as before, I see no significant difference using ACT , did you? thx devs , awesome job
Only to give a comparison. After very short testings on my Dreadnaught, i deal significant more damage on live. Setup: %gear: 2x3%, 5%, 0-20%, CS 105, 122k power, 95k CA, Bronzewood r13 Fully buffed: Anvil before 400k, Anvil now 600k max crit Mow Down: before 600k+ now up to 1 mio+
My Warlock: 2x3%, 5%, 0-20%, 2.5%, 3% , power 150k power 123k CA, CS 117% (formerly 144.5%), vorpal r 13 The class is on a similar level concerning dps as before, I see no significant difference using ACT , did you? thx devs , awesome job
Yup pretty much 0 f*s given as always, i'm sure every class is doing more damage tan before except for warlock which swallowed any damage bonus for switching to additive. I repeat, devs give me an option to move my stuff since you destroyed my class
you are confusing yourself. warlock buffs are currently multiplicative , so we are losing damage from there. The crit severity Buff basically negates that loss The 50% nerf to soul puppet means we lost about 5-7% damage total The nerf of risky investment to 20% down from 25% is about a 2% dps loss The slight magnitude increase on at wills, ( and I do mean slight) and the buff to soul scorch roughly negates that
the only significant change will be to AoE from cursebite Fiery bolt got such a small increase that with the buff formula change it wont be any different
So ye the overall dps including the whole formula is about the same as live, if not even slightly weaker
Dear Lord, i feel for the dev's because they have to put up with you. Read your comment above, and tell me if "warlock buffs are currently multiplicative , so we are losing damage from there.The crit severity Buff basically negates that loss" wouldn't give the impression that you meant multiplicative buffs are a nerf?
Lastly, another thing you are confusing is that currently all classes are doing more dps than live. Yet in your last comment to me, you mentioned that i said wiz is doing more dps on live, clearly not what i said. Read above.
I just tested my dps many times and i can confirm my dps has increased by 33% as cleric. I also tested my wiz friend, and he is doing about 15-20% more, not exactly sure about that since he left before we could get lots of samples.
Summary
ALLLL classes are doing more dps, even the pure dps classes. Cleric, barb and fighter doing 33% increased dps from live, whilst the other 4 are doing less than that. If Warlock is currently just matching live, then you'll fall behind 15-20% more in dps to pure dps classes in addition to you current 30% on live already. Gl for not understanding that, and i wish you the best of luck
@sobi#1980 My Fighter Dreadnaught deals about 33%+on live (after that patch today) My warlock didn't improve for 15-20% from my first impressions, but some more runs are needed to tell about.
The hole discussion was about loosing relatively more from the fix, compared to TR/CW/Hunter, since the class had more multiplicative lyer than others. So in the end the buff/fix to CS/CA will get eaten by that disadvantage/loss and lead to even lower dps (wich I doubt). I honestly don't check those lyer/buff one by one, timeconsuming, the class has mayor issues beyond magnitudes that will not be touched for long. Conclusion: play a healer (Soulweaver) or play another class !
Wow, really throwing a hissy fit over 1 type error and a sentences meaning I assumed would be obvious, ok ill redo them.
"if what you say is true and wizards are doing more dps THAN on live, then it means they suffer less from the multiplicative to additive change." "warlock buffs are currently multiplicative , SO WHEN THIS CHANGES TO ADDITIVE we are losing damage from there"
Sorry my posts are not always 100% perfect, but no one else seems to have a problem understand what I ment, just you being pedantic
I guess they intentionally didn't title these threads warlock balance. Because none of these "adjustments" increased the dps role damage in relation to any other dps role, just further increased the damage disparity.
Personally, i feel like the dev's are trying to get set of data by releasing the new formula so soon on live. That's actually the best way to test it. I just got beaten my as,s by a warlock, similar gear. Probs shows some light, but i kinda made mistakes. Lets hope the disparity is not so great anymore.
The only increase was in aoe damage potential if dark prayers allowed additional si stacks, but it's broken just like creeping death... Ri is still slow to stack and impossible to stack in boss fights, phases, stuns, puppet death, etc. no improvement in single target.
Even if dark prayer worked, no one really cares about aoe damage if single target is still up to 40% less damage in scenarios like tomm.
Comments
- Previous run you didn't come yet went bit better as my % of top wizard damage gap was 53% instead of 69%. We have a few more deaths that justify the gap between that run from this one. That doesn't change anything as class is still performing bad, but nobody was thinking about preview changes would have fixed anything and devs themselves stated that's not a balancing patch, rather a nerf mitigation. At this point if no time for a few simple redesign choice already suggested returning back the 25% buff from hellfire expertise as addition to these changes could be welcome as a short term solution, at least to stop the feeling of being carried.
- I was running debuff arti on both runs, not sure who other was, but that's not relevant as even with decanter/SSC wouldn't have the chance to cast dailies on each because one of warlock's major issue in TotMM is we don't have the chance to time daily on each debuff phase due to poor ap gain
on the bright side:
- ranger's damage looks closer to top wizards, at least they got benefit from changes
- we beated Halaster
I couldn't find a better way to waste my time instead of spending this efforts on a meaningful and productive rebalance of a class, where tons of feedback was given during the last month.
I name it and I don't see any reason to do it in a polite way, since that's what it is: A big waste of time-> on both sides.
"you just have to build properly, learn to play the class"
😆 so true.
On the bright side new formula
- finally ends that nonsense of critical hits adding to combat advantage
- (with some adjustment) should make the balance process easier on the long term.
- provided other classes some (small) improvements
Also devs have all the datas and got no impediments now to focus on a proper class balance. I completely agree with you and with many of the players posting here that in the short term this plan is arguable and tweaks needs to come asap. Resources are a few but plenty of "cheap" solutions provided as well.
They knew warlock was "balanced" on multiplicative instead additive. Even though it was told many times, the class based on this bug is in a poor state.
Live vs. preview
At maximum buff (in theory) wich rarely happens once in a run, since RI doesn't stack >2 average and Dailies are not up 24/7.
multipl.:1.1(WC)x1.25(RI max-encounter)x1.045(sparks max)x1.1(execut.-average)x1.15 (TC)x1.05 (DtD)= damage x 1.9
additive: ->1.7
so in the end you deal about 11% less maximum
Effectively buffs on a warlock (no curseconsume) infight look maybe like this
multipl:1.1(WC) x 1.1 (Ri) x 1.0225(15 sparks) x 1.1 (excut-average) x 1.05 (DtD)= damage x 1.42 at best
additive: 1.37
maybe 4% less damage
Now they take away a 25% buff on top an balance all stuff according to the missing damage, wich consumes a lot of time instead sticking with
RI now 4-20% instead 5-25%
sparks: 4,5% up to 7.5%
WC: 12% instead 10%
under the line a no-curse consuming build runnning NPNM+DtD (minority) will get:
2xRI 8% + 15sparks 3.25% + WC 12% + exec 10% + DtD 5% = 38,25% -> worse than 42%
and a Curse consuming (NPNM+ACC) build gets:
2xRI 8% + 15 sparks 3,25% + 10% = 21,25% worse than 23,7%, the more RI stacked the worse it get's..
So our damage is lower due to missing buffs.
About magnitudes:
Killing Flame: 400-600 x 1.25=600-750 - same
Hadar Grasp: 175 x1.25=218,75 - significant worse, only 200 and missing last tick
Fiery Bolt: 125 x 1.25= 156.25 - Significant better
Curse Bite 150 x 1.25= 187.5 - significant better , its 250 now wich may compensate for the buff WC got 12%
HfR: 75/180 x1.25=93,75/225 vs 120/200 same about, if not bugged as now on preview
Soul Scorch: 6/1x6 per spark=108/18x6=216 at full load, vs 162/27x6= 324 - significant buff
Accursed Souls: 900 instead 937 - lower
Brood of Hadar 550 x 1,25 + 6x100x 1.25= 687.5+750=1437.5 vs 1500 - buffed slightly
TC 800x 1.25=1000 vs 900 nerfed slightly
Pro:
Soul Scorch is the only thing to mention in a positive way.
Curse Bite may lead to a oneway decisions concerning setups, AoE/Focus damage improved
Fiery Bolt better AoE
Contra:
Soul puppet deals lower damage
Hadar Grasp lower damage
lower overall damage from buffs , about 4-7%(max), wich deletes the small step forward you gain by better Soul Scorch
All in all the warlock will stay as now or might be even worse in ranking since additive buffs will be lower than actual mutiplicative buffs and buffs in total got not adjusted adaequately to compensate.
The class will have the same core problems as before, where it took a lot of time to adjust some power for an back due to deleting Hellfire Expertise, instead of "fixing" the class and impoving gameplay, clap clap.
Effectiveness of this "pushing and pulling numbers" = zero to minus 10
What stays is the general impression: " Hey, you got that rework done, don't ask for more !"
Yes it is a magnitude nerf compared to live, there's not question about that, but the last tick is not missing, it ticks 6 times which is how its supposed to be. 1 tick per every 0.5 seconds of hold time.
Yes it used to tick 5 times and 7 times, but this was leading to the magnitudes being wildly incorrect and hadars grasp was doing more damage than it should of done for the stated magnitudes plus buffs. I highlighted this as a "possible" bug in one of my posts in the nine hells section a few months ago, along with the Soul Puppets Crit severity not working for along time.
Both of these have since been corrected in a "stealth fix" an undocumented correction that was never mentioned in any Patch Notes.
But yeah these slight magnitude changes and the crit severity change in the damage formula, more or less negate the loss of damage we lost from buffs multiplying together. but it doesn't really change anything. its buts us back to square 1 in the same position we are on live, 30% or more behind the ranger rogue and wizard.
Edit: yes I want the class to do more damage, but not through exploiting bugged mechanics/class features/encounters. id rather everything be working as intended, and adjust from there, than get used to using something that's broken for a damage boost, only to have it yanked away later.
So if your preview dps that is suppose to be using %additive damage is matched with ur live (multiplicative dps) then how is that you being in square 1? I mean, the other pure dps classes have gotten a nerf to their %multiplicative damage, whilst you have not?
Or are you telling me that your overall dps including the whole of the formula is the same as live, i.e. you haven't received around 33% increase in damage on preview in comparison to live? If this is the case, you are in trouble, because you will be doing way too less damage as you already were behind live, and now the preview is also not improving your dps but other classes are getting a buff.
warlock buffs are currently multiplicative , so we are losing damage from there.
The crit severity Buff basically negates that loss
The 50% nerf to soul puppet means we lost about 5-7% damage total
The nerf of risky investment to 20% down from 25% is about a 2% dps loss
The slight magnitude increase on at wills, ( and I do mean slight) and the buff to soul scorch roughly negates that
the only significant change will be to AoE from cursebite
Fiery bolt got such a small increase that with the buff formula change it wont be any different
So ye the overall dps including the whole formula is about the same as live, if not even slightly weaker
SO currently on live dps rankings is roughly
Rogue/wizard roughly equal, 100%
Ranger /98%
Warlock 70%
barbarian 70%
Cleric 70%
Fighter 67%
Assuming crit sev is going to be a 33% dps increase.
now on preview is going to be more like
Rogue/wizard 100% - about the same
Ranger - 98% - about the same
Barbarian 93% - 33% increase
Cleric 93% - 33% increase
Fighter 89% - 33% increase
Warlock - 70% - about the same
this is all based on assumptions of course. I have not personally tested any of the other classes only warlock and I do about the same dps on preview as on live. Everyone should test their own stuff out and see if the crit sev change really is a 33% increase or not.
The other confusion is that multiplicative buffs means a buff, not a nerf. The classes that use multiplicative buff on live are getting a nerf to their dps by swapping them to additive. But the buff to CA and crit makes up for that and more.
So the maths is that currently barb/cleric and fighter are doing 33% more damage on preview than live (althought not exactly from my maths). Wiz and other pure classes are instead doing around 20-25% more damage on preview. So the former 3 classes are getting about max 10%-15% or so buff to their damage in comparison to other dps. We will find out by testing more.
Any class that have multiplying buffs on LIVE are doing more damage intended, the more buffs they have the bigger the increase.
This means Warlock rangers wizards rogues
Any class that has multiplying buffs on live is getting NERFED, The more separate percentage buffs you have, the bigger the Decrease.
This means warlocks rangers wizards rogues
EVERY CLASS is being buffed by the Crit Severity change. the more Base crit severity you have, and the more access to CLASS ONLY crit severity buffs, the bigger the buff.
So if what you say is true, and Wizards are doing more damage on live, then it means they suffer less from the multiplicative to additive change, because they have less stacking buffs than warlocks.
Wizard: Intellect 7% arcane mastery 15% chilling presence 6% ( not sure if this is used) ray of enfeeblement 10%.
total 43.5% on live, VS 38% on Preview
Warlock: Intellect 7% Soul sparks 4.5% Hellfire Expertise 25% Warlocks curse 10% Executioners gift 0-20% ( 10% average), Risky Investment 25%
Total, 111.5% on live, VS 56.5% on Preview
Hellfire expertise is removed, risky investment nerfed to 20%, soul sparks buffed to 7.5% warlocks curse buffed to 12%
Wizards lose 5.5% from the damage multiplier from class buffs
Warlocks lose 155% from the damage multiplier from calls buffs
See the difference? this is even taking a average for Executioners gift, not the maximum 20%. when you start adding none class buff the gap is even worse. If this doesnt show you why warlocks are suffering more from this change than anyone else, then please stop commenting, you already said you dont play warlock
What I wrote only counts for magnitudes and %buffs, changed from multiplcative to additive for those 4 classes, leading to a smaller buff in the end the more a class based on %buffs the bigger the dps loss.
I am pretty sure that Arbiter, Fighter, Barbie won't close the gap towards TR, CW, Hunter - difference is too much.
All in all you can estimate from all the changes on warlocks side, that the class will be significantly downgraded compared to Arbiter, Barbie, Dreadnaught and distance towards those 3 leading classes will stay same more or less, since there was no significant buff for the class in the end. They took something (Soulpuppet/RI), they gave something (SoulScorch, CB).
* if not the nerf towards Vorpal equals out all that theoretical +dps
I pretty much don't know what buffs on warlocks side work multiplicative, if Hellfire Expertise is a multiplicative layer same as RI like 1.05x1.05x1.05 etc, the endresult for warlocks will be even more depremising as @tempus86#1158 wrote above- looks pretty awefull if that 211,5% is for real
we get 111.5% buffs from class features etc. this is a (x 2.11) modifier on LIVE
we get 56.5% buffs from class features etc on preview, its is a (x1.565) modifier on PREVIEW
So, we are losing 26% damage from the Buff change
IF you do 100,000 dps, with the buff change you now do 74,000DPS,
To get back up to 100,000 you need to get a 35.14% buff (74,000 x 1.3514 = 100,004 DPS)
So if the Crit Severity change is supposed to be a 33% buff, we are still doing less overall and again, this is only with class buffs alone. when you start adding demo Set and Ebony Rings and Tempters gloves and mount powers and Artifacts into the mix this the gap is even bigger
All multiplicative classes changing to additive. That reduces damage for multiplicative and puts them more in line with additive. Problem is that warlocks are performing onpar with additive dps classes in live currently.
Once those changes made warlocks are reduced below performance of all dps classes.
Then nerfs from hellfire expertise 25% and si stacks 5%, slight increase from full sparks by 2.5% and slight increase to curse damage %. Majority of increases to magnitudes are not inline with damage loss from warlock class nerfs.
End result is damage reduction from class changes and multiplicative to additive changes. Then, all classes recieve increased damage from crit sev, ca, buff changes to damage equations so no improvement there to offset damage reductions to warlock class dps role.
Warlocks have recieved an overall nerf plus lowered damage in relation to all dps classes.
it was a mistake, it should say 111,5% buff not 211,5%, its a 2.115 multiplier ( 1+ 1.115)
Even though I always think of hellfire expertise as automatically increasing magnitudes by 25% because its a default skill, not a choice, the same can be said of any buff alone since they are all separate in the formula but its still a percentage buff. 1, 2 ,3 ,4 ,5. multiplied in any order is always 120, that's kinda how it works.
so for us its BASE damage x 1.07 x 1.045 x 1.25 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.25 = 2.114000234 or 2.114 multiplier from class buffs
then you could add in the rest, for 2 ebony rings and the tempters gloves, that's 2.114 x 1.03 x 1.03 x 1.03 2.31 modifier
131%
Normal hits and Combat Advantage hits will be unchanged.
Normal hit = base damage x buffs no change
CA hit = base damage x 2 x buffs no change
Crit hit = base x 2 x buffs= no change
Crit CA = base x 2 x 2 x buffs VS base x 3 x buffs = 33% increase
Assuming 100% CA up time , and 50% crit, that's 0 normal hits, 50% CA only hits and 50% CA+Crit hits.
So even best case scenario the crit severity change is really only going to give 16.5% DPS increase on average, if you have 100% crit severity.
This will increase slightly the more crit severity you have obviously but its nowhere near a 33% overall increase.
Setup: %gear: 2x3%, 5%, 0-20%, CS 105, 122k power, 95k CA, Bronzewood r13
Fully buffed: Anvil before 400k, Anvil now 600k max crit
Mow Down: before 600k+ now up to 1 mio+
My Warlock: 2x3%, 5%, 0-20%, 2.5%, 3% , power 150k power 123k CA, CS 117% (formerly 144.5%), vorpal r 13
The class is on a similar level concerning dps as before, I see no significant difference using ACT , did you?
thx devs , awesome job
Dear Lord, i feel for the dev's because they have to put up with you. Read your comment above, and tell me if "warlock buffs are currently multiplicative , so we are losing damage from there.The crit severity Buff basically negates that loss" wouldn't give the impression that you meant multiplicative buffs are a nerf?
Lastly, another thing you are confusing is that currently all classes are doing more dps than live. Yet in your last comment to me, you mentioned that i said wiz is doing more dps on live, clearly not what i said. Read above.
I just tested my dps many times and i can confirm my dps has increased by 33% as cleric. I also tested my wiz friend, and he is doing about 15-20% more, not exactly sure about that since he left before we could get lots of samples.
Summary
ALLLL classes are doing more dps, even the pure dps classes.
Cleric, barb and fighter doing 33% increased dps from live, whilst the other 4 are doing less than that.
If Warlock is currently just matching live, then you'll fall behind 15-20% more in dps to pure dps classes in addition to you current 30% on live already. Gl for not understanding that, and i wish you the best of luck
My Fighter Dreadnaught deals about 33%+on live (after that patch today)
My warlock didn't improve for 15-20% from my first impressions, but some more runs are needed to tell about.
The hole discussion was about loosing relatively more from the fix, compared to TR/CW/Hunter, since the class had more multiplicative lyer than others.
So in the end the buff/fix to CS/CA will get eaten by that disadvantage/loss and lead to even lower dps (wich I doubt).
I honestly don't check those lyer/buff one by one, timeconsuming, the class has mayor issues beyond magnitudes that will not be touched for long.
Conclusion: play a healer (Soulweaver) or play another class !
Wow, really throwing a hissy fit over 1 type error and a sentences meaning I assumed would be obvious, ok ill redo them.
"if what you say is true and wizards are doing more dps THAN on live, then it means they suffer less from the multiplicative to additive change."
"warlock buffs are currently multiplicative , SO WHEN THIS CHANGES TO ADDITIVE we are losing damage from there"
Sorry my posts are not always 100% perfect, but no one else seems to have a problem understand what I ment, just you being pedantic
Because none of these "adjustments" increased the dps role damage in relation to any other dps role, just further increased the damage disparity.
Ri is still slow to stack and impossible to stack in boss fights, phases, stuns, puppet death, etc. no improvement in single target.
Even if dark prayer worked, no one really cares about aoe damage if single target is still up to 40% less damage in scenarios like tomm.