Flames of empowerment's debuff icon is stacking up to 10x, but debuff is not applyed at all (how to repro: hit multipre times with FoE slotted and effectiveness is every time the same, or 1/2 if attack is deflected)
My bad, was wrong: Flames of empowerment's BUFF stacks up to 10 times,
PS: once this gets fixed people will not keep saying SW is OP, which is quite misleading
Actually there are other classes that are not balanced as far as I was told, dealing 400k Aoe encounter, spamming 200k At Will. That´s nothing a warlock can do actually, not even close to. We talk about 30k crits+DOT as a classmechanic. If this all takes 4 years again to get stuff into balance and if this mod is released as a 2. "mod 6", when 1000's of bugs came on top, I will delete everything and do a big "Give away"in advance
One bug that has been reported is Immolation Spirits not going away. Does anyone have a situation that tends to reproduce this behavior?
@noworries#8859 It's pretty easy to reproduce, if they get healed in the last moment then they don't die.
PS: once this gets fixed people will not keep saying SW is OP, which is quite misleading
PPS: if you need a video I could try to record one myself, but I will not be able to do so until Saturday
A video would be very helpful as I've tried to spam heals as they're finishing up their time and they still go away for me, seeing someone in action pulling it off would certainly help narrow it down.
In my runs those Spirits were invisble to me. I only saw an invisble armada following me (but you cantarget them) and the moment I put PoP on the ground there are tons of smaller heals out of nowhere. The moment I attack, they make every attacker "explode". Log out , log in and there they are 10-14 Spirits that don´t know where to go, their master has left.
Here's where it starts to get tricky as we have started to put together our next update to Preview, which means work we are doing today won't be seen until the build after that. But here are some future changes in the works:
Warlock base:
Soul Sparks now grant a .15% damage increase per spark, down from .25%
Curse Bite has been reduced to 220 magnitude
Soulweaver:
Shatter Spark, Wraith's Shadow, Harrowstorm, and Soul Pact all got a magnitude increase. Warlock's Bargain's magnitude is unchanged.
Lingering Sustain has been reduced to 150 from 200 magnitude.
Hellbringer:
Hellfire Ring has had its cooldown cut in half. The magnitude is now 100 for the initial hit and 225 for the Dot
Soul Scorch initial damage has been increased slightly, the DoT damage has been decreased slightly. It is 10 magnitude damage initial per soul spark used, and 12 Magnitude Dot (over total time) per soul spark spent.
Feat Risky Investment is now paired with Soul Desecration
Feat Warlock's Curse now does 10% damage boost
Parting Blasphemy has been reduced from 100 magnitude to 75 magnitude
Creeping Death is now paired with Executioner's Gift
Executioner's Gift is now a maximum of 20% boost.
This is in addition to previously mentioned changes and everything is subject to future changes as well. It does sound like several people are against Fiery Bolt being a strong single target power. I'll be looking for feedback on that after the next build goes up to preview and will either swap it back to what it was or leave it as single target based on how people feel after trying it out.
To be honest that’s kind of hard to process without knowing what is being changed in this week’s patch.
I like that the HF Ring has a huge dot, that mitigates the problem with dots a bit, but that problem will always remain. As the other classes get their dps in line with burst damage, dots will become a terrible source of damage again.
Experience playing HB with PoP on live (and OP with CoP and DC with AS) tells me that people will not “stand in the circle” to get buffs, you can forget them doing it just so we can do damage. So I would much rather that 75-90% of any attacks damage come from the initial application and that small remainder of “expected” damage be dots. That way we don’t get gimped by positioning and burst dps classes killing things faster than our dots allow.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Arms of Hadar's AoE is very inconsistent. I think some other conal and line AoE powers like Wizard's Cataclysm and Cleric's Searing Light are having a similar issue. Sometimes targets are unaffected even at nearly point-blank range, well within the expected area of effect.
Hellbringer was lacking in a strong single target Encounter. So for the next update I am experimenting with having Fiery Bolt be a single target only encounter with a magnitude of 700. It no longer has a curse synergy which means it will apply Lesser Curse as well.
The problem is the reduction in the number of powers you can choose. Consequently, those powers that have never really been useful have a worse impact than before.
For example, Infernal Spheres has always been useless. In the past this power has been reworked so that it could give us more survivability, but it never became part of the Warlock. It would certainly be more useful if this were a ranged single target power, perhaps with greater damage, and if it passively reloaded the spheres, removing the part in which the spheres automatically hit the attacker.
The Flames of Phelegethos are unlocked when you reach level 80, so you expect them to be very strong; instead they're just weak. The skill is weak in single target and in AOE (20% of the heat that expands to nearby enemies is not enough): in both cases no one would use it as it is now. It would be much more interesting if it were a single target power (without 20% damage to nearby enemies) with a longer duration and the damage that increases over time and / or increases the fire damage that the enemy suffers.
Players have pointed out that Dust to Dust feels like it should be in the Hellbringer path. For the next preview update I have swapped Dust to Dust and Prince of Hell. Prince of Hell also isn't a particularly interesting class feature, so I'd be interested in hearing the types of things players might like to see it replaced with.
Prince of Hell now gives you 2500 Armor penetration: it is sad that a passive can not characterize the gameplay since it has nothing more than any equipment that gives you armor penetration. The first thing that comes to mind reading the name is hell, so fire. It would be nice to give it an effect that enhances fire damage, something that increases the damage or something like the old talent Murderous Flames.
Feat Risky Investment is now paired with Soul Desecration
Wrathful Souls, Risky Investment, Soul Desecration and Soul Puppet don't match well with the DPS build, I find them more suitable in the Soulweaver one. This is because the soul puppet has never excelled as a dps feature, so its moderately low dps would have been more useful in soulweaver, perhaps adding some healing / defensive power like Warding Spirit and Wrathful Souls (old) and then some kind of lifesteal that generates aoe healing for nearby allies. In the current state of the DPS build, there is a lack of some past talents like Spiritfire, Ghastly Commander, Burning Buppet and Wrathful Souls (old). As I already said, the Soul Puppet has never been able to do much DPS, but with the general lowering of the Power Level of this module plus a few tweaks and taking more material from old talents, I believe it could be good.
Small note: the General skills Demonic Vision and Devastating Critical have the exact same effect, I suppose it's incorrect, right?
Is there even a chance of getting a third paragon path that focuses on the Puppet? I don't see why it is still in the abilities, as it really is only taking up a portion of the power of the ability so that a puppet could be summoned, but without having the extra stuff to go with it, and make having the puppet actually worth doing (if that build)? Those abilities could drop the puppet part, and get buffed in some other, actually useful, way - or just get removed, since most players (that I know, at least) don't use those abilities, they are for the puppet builds, and unless you are one, they are subpar.
Good point @geekoxxiii about the effect of bad powers with the limited options.
Basically Infernal Spheres is a lower level worse version of BoVA, we definitely don’t need 2 of those powers in such a limited pool of powers.
@noworries#8859 why doesn’t Hadar’s use the same targeting as Sudden Storm (but shorter and wider)?
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
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espasbadfistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 39Arc User
Hi folks and thank you for being in this thread. Special thanks to @schietindebux who still seems to be very passionate about the Warlock and of course to @noworries#8859 who gives me the feeling to really want to show us that he cares about the players that have chosen the Warlock.
Old "fun brake" that i am i would like to raise my index finger and say "do not overdo it" :-)
E.g. i don't even have to test it to know that making "Fiery Bolt" a single target encounter is not a good idea - imho that is what "Killing Flames" is for.
Probably/hopefully the developers spent a lot of time thinking about the remodeling of the classes and the paragon paths. We should not urge them to question all of this in the heat of the moment. Please, please, please focus on the bugs first and don't allow the wall of "technical debt" to build up.
Ok, so what burst powers/attacks does the warlock in mod16 have? Because the only place dots are even remotely useful is in long boss fights.
When I last checked on preview my pet was killing all the mobs before any dots became meaningful, so if there is a decent combination of burst attacks (single target and aoe) that anyone has found effective I'd like to check them out. Preferably not using soul sparks, although if that is the only option then please say so.
My suggestions so far, concerning mechanics, feats and synergies: 1. About Curses and the need to apply them I propose to give the class a way to curse mobs easier. The way "All Consuming Curse" did it in the past, a classfeature that was essential to make this class work at all. So either turn back ACC as before "Curses apply on crits" as classfeature or as a general ability (switch Vengefull Curse vs. ACC) or by implementing a feat to chose (ACC instead of PotnH), or make the core mechanic "Lesser Curse" work with all powers, any out of those 4 options would help. Another option down below, not sure if possible but a way to solve some aspects at once.
I'd rather remove curse synergy from FB and BoVA or allowing ACC applying curse to curse synergy powers or on every DoT encounter proc (harrowstorm, Hellfire ring, BoVA): it's probably easier to implement and doesn't force players stacking crit, as m16 changes are allowing a broader possible setups i would like not to loose
Sorry to scroll back in the threat. There is one thing to mention about freedom of choice in stats. Hellbringer is based to some degree on crits as a "core function" -> Hellfire Expertise, to build sparks. Hadar grasp doesn´t build sparks as a "non crit" (actually same effect on live), same as other powers won´t do. Some classes/builds are not dependend on crit as a stat same way. Those classes have a free choice to neglect Crit as a hole and build into power/Combat Advantage as many allready are heading for actually. If you intend to build a warlock that way, you have to know that none of those powers will fill up your core ability (sparks) and you will not be able to use core functions like Soul Scorch, same as builds that spend into both stats (crit and CA) will not work, neither having enough Combat Advatage nor Critrate in front of a boss with high defensive stats. To sum it up HB-warlocks core mechanic get´s worse the less crits are generated, regarding that the class is build on crit aspects (Demonic Vision+devastating Criticals both +10% Crit Severity)! If mod 16 get´s released this way this class will have a disadvantage right at the start and your free choice will be either to gimp your basic classmechanic and general aspects or go a pure crit setup to benefit from those aspects. New statsystem is not well thought imo, since it does not take into account that some classes are more based on crit than others, same as it forces player to build straight into one direction, especially having lower stats. As it stands right now I predict a Hellbringer to be a crit setup and a Soulweaver to be a non crit setup. By that you have to investe immensely into two completely different gears or simply negelct a complete path, since you are fed up investing that much effort into two different sets. Anyway I am pretty sure warlock is going to be considered as a healer in mod 16 anyway, at least some indicators point into that direction actually. Beside that a striker/leader as it looks will have to invest anyway into two setups like: Accuracy, Arp, Power, CA or crit as striker same as Power, Crit as leader , if I understood the upcoming changes
@noworries#8859 is there a chance to switch "Hellfire Expertise" in a way that is not that dependent on crit? If so there might be a way to have a real choice for stats. A way to build arround it would be to replace "spark on crits" into "sparks on cursed target", in case this is possible at all.
That´s what @thefabricant wrote in another threat: "Enemies have 24000 of each rating at level 80 (both offensive and defensive). Accuracy counters deflect. Armour penetration counters defense. Crit Resist Counters Crit. Awareness counters combat advantage. You have a base CA score of 10% and CA caps at 100% bonus. You have a base Crit of 5% and crit caps at 50%. Deflection caps at 50%. Damage Reduction caps at 80%. These stats are additive, so if you have 20000 accuracy and the enemy has 40% deflect, their value would be 0. The same applies for all the stats. All percentage bases for crit and ca ARE countered by the counter stat. For example, with 45% crit from stats and 5% base, if an enemy has 50% crit resist you will not crit. Debuffs are not diminished anymore. Break the spirit etc are debuffs and not buffs. As far as I can tell only 2 group buffs exist and they are multiplicative. Controlled Momentum and feated AA. Your defensive ratings cannot go negative. For example if an enemy has 20000 armor penetration and you have no damage reduction, it will not increase damage taken by 40%. The combined rating on gear adds its rating to every single stat. So if you have +500 combined rating, everything is increased by 500.
If you want to know what to stack, the order of importance in short is: Armor Penetration until capped. Accuracy until capped. Power. You only want to invest in crit and combat advantage if you can stack a lot of either of them and in general you only want to stack 1 of them, the other should be at 0. If you do not have more then 106% crit severity, combat advantage should always be better."
"SW is trash.. and the biggest part? The DEVS think the class is OP and plan to nerf it even more. Right now on preview there is a bug and SW is doing insane damage.. I'll putting a video out on it. But if you don't abuse the bugs then the normal damage is a joke for a DPS class. Right now, the HEALING spec is better than the DPS spec. So, GG for that."
My suggestions so far, concerning mechanics, feats and synergies: 1. About Curses and the need to apply them I propose to give the class a way to curse mobs easier. The way "All Consuming Curse" did it in the past, a classfeature that was essential to make this class work at all. So either turn back ACC as before "Curses apply on crits" as classfeature or as a general ability (switch Vengefull Curse vs. ACC) or by implementing a feat to chose (ACC instead of PotnH), or make the core mechanic "Lesser Curse" work with all powers, any out of those 4 options would help. Another option down below, not sure if possible but a way to solve some aspects at once.
I'd rather remove curse synergy from FB and BoVA or allowing ACC applying curse to curse synergy powers or on every DoT encounter proc (harrowstorm, Hellfire ring, BoVA): it's probably easier to implement and doesn't force players stacking crit, as m16 changes are allowing a broader possible setups i would like not to loose
Sorry to scroll back in the threat. There is one thing to mention about freedom of choice in stats. Hellbringer is based to some degree on crits as a "core function" -> Hellfire Expertise, to build sparks. Hadar grasp doesn´t build sparks as a "non crit" (actually same effect on live), same as other powers won´t do. Some classes/builds are not dependend on crit as a stat same way. Those classes have a free choice to neglect Crit as a hole and build into power/Combat Advantage as many allready are heading for actually. If you intend to build a warlock that way, you have to know that none of those powers will fill up your core ability (sparks) and you will not be able to use core functions like Soul Scorch, same as builds that spend into both stats (crit and CA) will not work, neither having Combat Advatage nor Crits in front of a boss with high defensive stats. To sum it up HB-warlocks core mechanic get´s worse the less crits are generated, regarding that the class is build on crit aspects (Demonic Vision+devastating Criticals both +10% Crit Severity)! If mod 16 get´s released this way this class will have a disadvantage right at the start and your free choice will be either to gimp your basic classmechanic and general aspects or go a pure crit setup to benefit from those aspects. New statsystem is not well thought imo, since it does not take into account that some classes are more based on crit than others, same as it forces player to build straight into one direction, especially having lower stats. As it stands right now I predict a Hellbringer to be a crit setup and a Soulweaver to be a non crit setup. By that you have to investe immensely into two completely different gears or simply negelct a complete path, since you are fed up investing that much effort into two different sets. Anyway I am pretty sure warlock is going to be considered as a healer in mod 16 anyway, at least some indicators point into that direction actually.
That´s what @thefabricant wrote in another threat: "Enemies have 24000 of each rating at level 80 (both offensive and defensive). Accuracy counters deflect. Armour penetration counters defense. Crit Resist Counters Crit. Awareness counters combat advantage. You have a base CA score of 10% and CA caps at 100% bonus. You have a base Crit of 5% and crit caps at 50%. Deflection caps at 50%. Damage Reduction caps at 80%. These stats are additive, so if you have 20000 accuracy and the enemy has 40% deflect, their value would be 0. The same applies for all the stats. All percentage bases for crit and ca ARE countered by the counter stat. For example, with 45% crit from stats and 5% base, if an enemy has 50% crit resist you will not crit. Debuffs are not diminished anymore. Break the spirit etc are debuffs and not buffs. As far as I can tell only 2 group buffs exist and they are multiplicative. Controlled Momentum and feated AA. Your defensive ratings cannot go negative. For example if an enemy has 20000 armor penetration and you have no damage reduction, it will not increase damage taken by 40%. The combined rating on gear adds its rating to every single stat. So if you have +500 combined rating, everything is increased by 500.
If you want to know what to stack, the order of importance in short is: Armor Penetration until capped. Accuracy until capped. Power. You only want to invest in crit and combat advantage if you can stack a lot of either of them and in general you only want to stack 1 of them, the other should be at 0. If you do not have more then 106% crit severity, combat advantage should always be better."
"SW is trash.. and the biggest part? The DEVS think the class is OP and plan to nerf it even more. Right now on preview there is a bug and SW is doing insane damage.. I'll putting a video out on it. But if you don't abuse the bugs then the normal damage is a joke for a DPS class. Right now, the HEALING spec is better than the DPS spec. So, GG for that."
- Garlaanx
I never found the bug.
Maybe it´s the invisible armada of Spirits following you in your back? The more spirits you call, the more they burn your attacker in seconds. Btw. I remember this to be an old bug, maybe 3-4 years ago, it also happend with the puppet for a short period. Actually you can´t recall those Spirits on live before the last 2 Spirits disappeared, your daily is wasted doing it before.
About balance, I think you are correct to mention that the class underperforms significant, if you take bugs aside. Yesterday on live the Alliance chatted about general aspect of classes on preview, reading in a pretty "unmistakeable" form, that some classes actually deal 10-20 times the ammount of damage with At Wills and 8 times the ammount of damage with an aoe encounter, hard to believe tbh. Not sure if that is related to bugs too, but reading about a downgrade in some aspects is not that encouraging, same as I also agree about the need to scale things down to a healthy level. Actually my "no gear" Hunter (no clue how to play that class) same as "low gear" CW (not much idea on how to do it right) deal near the same ammount of focus-dps on that dummy than my "near maxed" warlock does (maybe never understood the class myself)
Ok , trying to be constructive, deleted that gripy part.
If you compare classes on a dummy , stripped to the bone, about same stats, feats applied, and a testweapon slotted, the ammount of damage one Encounter, Dailies, At Wills deals, compared to another striker it is about 30% to 50%. Brood of Hadar (Bites incl) 14k vs Snipe 44k Hand of Blight 200, Rapid Shot 600 Commanding Shot 7.2k, Killing Flame 2.9 and so on A lot of dps comes from Lesser Curse and Wraith Claw at that state of Equip, so the difference in a hole is not that huge. But only looking at those Dailies, I do have my doubts, that classes are equally setup. Same counts for my DC btw. far bigger numbers, biggest impact Guardian of Faith 33k (100% more than my lock can dish out actually), same for my Wizard 32k daily, did not compare GF actually. And I did check if dodged or not also took effectiveness into account etc. Warlock hardest hitting Daily = 1/2 of DC and Wizard and about 1/3 of Hunters, can´t make this more transparent actually. To sum it up: warlock actually has the weakest encounter, the weakes At wills and the weakest daily (cut in half). But damagesources from additive powers (DOTS) One thing in that bill stays obvious: the Dailies need to be addressed to be on same level as other classes actually, sicne they are obviously downscaled like At Wills and Encounter
A damagetable looks like this on a single target, take into account that Killing flame is significant lower in general, but dummy was allways near death. Class feature ACC+Deadly Curse Lesser Curse 16%, Wraith Claw 9%, Parting Blasphemy 4%, 29% from other sources, if you add Soul Scorch 12% on top 41%. Actually I can´t tell what happens in a group with all those different damagesources. Warlock is capabale to have much faster encounterreset compared to other classes on top.
Flames of empowerment,wich actually works somehow and is not bugged, stacks till 10 plus Deadly Curse leed to higher LC procs but only few of them, I needed to switch VE vs Hadar Arms to apply LC at all.
FoE and ACC looks like this, the absence of DC leads to pretty low LC procs 1%
From all combinations DC+ACC was the significantly best option, carrying Lesser Curse from the bottom to the top (KF needs to be halved-dead puppet), running through this several times, even though Flames of empowerment did spend a higher dps buff than it should, about 9%. Pretty hard to check with that varying sparkbuff on top.
Antoher point to reinterate, since I have the feeling feedback in this threat get´s neglected to some degree. The different classfeature to pick from are to some degree not that interesting concerning builddiversity. Pretending this was actually life and PB fixed, it is from minor impact to chose between PB or Warlocks Curse, one is more consistent, the other leads to a more rigid kind of gameplay, both do similar dps in the end.
Chosing Creeping death + executioners gift or the Puppet + Risky investment 5% (if fixed): they may equal out each other but you have the chance for CA from your puppet on top, CD+EG are more aoe relevant for sure. Similar result: "Choosing between two damagebuffs to get to the result: one may beat the other slightly in the end but having a puppet". My sight of builds was a bit different like 1. pure dps, 2. more tankyness not another dps setup, but that´s only my thoughts. Heading forward to lev 80 a puppet could be a more relevant part, since you get an encounterreset per hit, same on SoulScorch tbh on 6 sparks used, we will see. Picking up the "theme builddiversity" again -> low crit-> lower sparks->lower Soulscorch usage->lower encounterreset-> lower dps ! Puppet-build = only option for noncrit setup as dps.
End of the line, I propose to make Deadly Curse and ACC work different and give Warlock the general ability to apply LC with At Wills, same as make Lesser Curse proc with 25 magnitude on Hellbringer path only, dps needed. That way you get more choices from class feature. Or maybe as "Hellbringer only" feature ->switch with Dark Prayer. I did some proposals for changes for DC/ACC posts above. Actually I don´t think warlock is a hopeless case, since rotations run pretty good, but there needs to be some minor and mayor changes to make it viable as dps, can´t tell for Soulweaver not checked that much so far
I have two main characters that I play in the live game, a SW (main) and a DC (hint count not care less about being top dps)
Just some general feedback about the SW on test
Going from live to test it seems you have taken all the fun aspects of playing a SW bundled them up together and thrown them away. Frankly the class seems directionless with a dps path that is out dps’d by its own healing path. After playing upon the SW for a handful of hours in the test environment frankly I could not force myself to continue playing it. At this stage I was very disappointed with mod16 feeling I would move on to a new game. So I switched to my DC.
Chalk and cheese – The dc has a clear direction, plays 1,000,000% better. Class encounters/feats everything explained clearly and at wills and encounters gel together making a theme. The class frankly plays much more fluidly and fast action, similar to live environment. DPS path imo outperforms SW, Healing path imo outperforms SW. SW/DC both are labelled as healers and DPS – I see no reason why anyone would pick a SW over a DC for any reason whatsoever. Mod16 seems a whole lot more fun upon a DC.
Example of difference for DPS – DC single target forge master flame magnitude 800 buffed by burning judgement effect up to I think 1200. Please explain to me the SW equivalent – probably a daily I guess. DC at will magnitude around 60’ish, SW 40’ish.
If I was marking these classes for an exam paper the DC would pass with a good grade, the SW would be advised to apply itself and re-sit the exam in a year’s time.
Sorry for the really negative feedback about the warlock, but I really cannot see any positives in this class at the moment.
While I acknowledge that feedback on the feedback process is maybe not in the best place here, there is no other thread for this kind of meta feedback, so I will just leave it here...
Please tell us WHY certain changes are considered Would it be an option for the next official response to include at least some reasoning behind contemplated changes. The stuff @noworries#8859 listed as changes under consideration does nothing but mystify me, as they in no way seem to have any relation to the feedback provided in this thread. Rather they seem to indicate that the warlock needs to be tuned down, something I cannot find any actual numbers for. My comparisons and testing certainly do not point in that direction. I am not under the illusion that my personal experience, or my failure to find corroborating numbers counts for anything, but having more insight into what data/information IS used in the change process will allow us to provide better and more relevant feedback..
The one change with a clear rationale, turning fiery bolt into a single target power, has seen fierce opposition. Which is acknowledged, in a possibly somewhat petulant way (but I might be viewing that through my perception filter ). However the arguments for that opposition remain utterly unaddressed. If you do not agree with "us". Cool. You are in the position to not have to . But I for one would like to know at least some of the WHY.
So the idea of "dead powers" has been mooted and I figured I would take a look at the class with a view to that idea.
DPS Spec Powers: Dark Spiral Aura - the need to charge this up has always made it a difficult power (except for a time when you could get free charges easily). Replacing with something like Essence Defiler where the ability to gain Soul Sparks would help address the problem the DPS spec has with being able to effectively use its class Tab feature would at least be a viable alternative.
Making Eldritch Blast a clear small AoE (Empowered Daunting Light size) would also give it a clear roll in the line up of the At-Wills, rather than the "hope you hit 1 target 3 times and there is something close enough" power it has always been.
Infernal Spheres - I mean I haven't used Infernal Spheres basically since the original play test of the class was half-way through. Perhaps its time to open the PHB and take a look at Warlock options for an idea or give us back PoP with damage.
Flames of Phelgethos - Brood of Hadar is just a better choice for single target dps Gates of Hell - at least has a place once we start talking about dungeons, but for solo play I haven't even bothered slotting it.
DPS Spec Feats: Several of the feats have the problem of what they are paired with, where they create a situation where you have to choose between 2 things that actually have synergy (basically the first 4 feats). The subsequent eats then come down to "did you choose the puppet" if that is yes, you are going to take the other 2 feats that make it better.
If Double Scorch and Warlock's Curse swapped spots you would at least have an initial choice between improving Soul Scorch and improving Lesser Curse.
Risky Investment's problem is that just from the Power tab you cannot actually tell what it does, regardless of if it does anything.
Aside from Risky Investment (and the bugs with Creeping Death) all the feats seem like a valid choice for one reason or another to me. The problem is more that they are either choices between different boosts for the same thing, or lock you in to a pattern.
The Puppet I love the puppet, I love that I can still play with it. Its always been my favorite thing about the class. The problem with the puppet is keeping the class balanced between those that have the puppet and those that don't have the puppet. Perhaps a solution is making the puppet always on for all dps specs? Then you can always balance for the puppet, because you know its always there. But that could just be my bias.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I like the puppet when I am being lazy. However, I want to be able to turn it on or turn it off as the want for it changes. In other words running through leveling areas I like the puppet killing mobs for me. But that's about all.
I didn't sign up to be a warlock because I like healing either. Frankly, that was not what the description had said. It didn't say you would suck as a DSP until you got to 18k plus either (and still get out dpsed by a few 16K gwfs). Otherwise I would have picked another class. I chose it because it was a supposed to be a pure damage dealing caster, not a controller. And def not healer.
Anyway, I hear the wizard has positive changes going forward into mod 16.
Here's where it starts to get tricky as we have started to put together our next update to Preview, which means work we are doing today won't be seen until the build after that. But here are some future changes in the works:
Warlock base:
Soul Sparks now grant a .15% damage increase per spark, down from .25%
Curse Bite has been reduced to 220 magnitude
Soulweaver:
Shatter Spark, Wraith's Shadow, Harrowstorm, and Soul Pact all got a magnitude increase. Warlock's Bargain's magnitude is unchanged.
Lingering Sustain has been reduced to 150 from 200 magnitude.
Hellbringer:
Hellfire Ring has had its cooldown cut in half. The magnitude is now 100 for the initial hit and 225 for the Dot
Soul Scorch initial damage has been increased slightly, the DoT damage has been decreased slightly. It is 10 magnitude damage initial per soul spark used, and 12 Magnitude Dot (over total time) per soul spark spent.
Feat Risky Investment is now paired with Soul Desecration
Feat Warlock's Curse now does 10% damage boost
Parting Blasphemy has been reduced from 100 magnitude to 75 magnitude
Creeping Death is now paired with Executioner's Gift
Executioner's Gift is now a maximum of 20% boost.
This is in addition to previously mentioned changes and everything is subject to future changes as well. It does sound like several people are against Fiery Bolt being a strong single target power. I'll be looking for feedback on that after the next build goes up to preview and will either swap it back to what it was or leave it as single target based on how people feel after trying it out.
So while I see a number of improvements, I also see quite a bit of 'toning things' down... @noworries#8859@asterdahl
Was/Is Warlock really over performing THAT much comparatively to the other classes in your testing? If so, please take the moment to let us know your build/rotations... Because that is certainly NOT what most, if not all, people playing Warlock have been seeing.
We are middling of the pack damage wise and middling healing wise.
Healing: Mind you, I actually think our Healing levels are pretty spot on and dynamically different then Paladins and Clerics. Honestly, I don't see much else to do there. I feel our heals are more of a constant Heal Over Time mechanic, w/o the massive solo heal from Cleric, etc. Which is fine, I actually think it's cool that our healing is dependent on our DPS in many regards, that makes it different and dynamic.
DPS: You HAVE to be aware that we've been reporting the Immolation Spirit Bug/Issue for a while now, particularly in this thread. Thus I am moving forward presuming that is the case, as it is completely obvious and basically a hard fact that is spiking Warlock DPS. Which means I would hope that your internal data that you're using for the above 'nerfs' are taking into account the fact that there are Bugged features spiking our DPS, yes?
Basically, I'm concerned/fearful that you're 'nerfing' things above, simply as a response to the 'overall DPS' of the Warlock. Which the 'overall' aspect has the Bugs (that many have reported here) included in its calculations and not running DPS data pertaining to NOT using said bugs.
If my concern/fear is misplaced, and Warlock is somehow over performing all other DPS classes w/o Bugged features, then please say so here! If it is the case that Warlock is somehow rocking face DPS wise comparatively to other DPS classes, who are not receiving as many lower Magnitude adjustments (at least it seams so looking at other Class threads) on their powers, then I'd be happy to try and replicate/test it minus the Immolation Spirits DPS bug.
It's greatly concerning seeing so many lowered powers/effects, comparatively to other classes, when w/o a Bugged feature/effect I can't for the life of me see where there is a major concern over Warlock DPS. Thus I would like to be enlightened...
BTW, to be clear, I think the entire Dev team is doing a phenomenal job on the Test Shard via engagement and answering questions/concerns. I'd just like to see a bit more attention to the Warlock, albeit I'm biased(!), given the general downgrading shown above.
Thanks again for your time, and please continue the great work!
One bug that has been reported is Immolation Spirits not going away. Does anyone have a situation that tends to reproduce this behavior?
@noworries#8859 It's pretty easy to reproduce, if they get healed in the last moment then they don't die.
PS: once this gets fixed people will not keep saying SW is OP, which is quite misleading
PPS: if you need a video I could try to record one myself, but I will not be able to do so until Saturday
A video would be very helpful as I've tried to spam heals as they're finishing up their time and they still go away for me, seeing someone in action pulling it off would certainly help narrow it down.
- Invoke Immolation Spirits. - Wait a few seconds. - Cast a Heal Over time centered on each one of the two Immolation Spirits. - Both spirits die and revive.
This process can be repeated with any healing effect that acts in the very moment of their dead, so any heal over time from SW, DC, etc. will keep them alive.
As long as my warlock can still stand at the center of explosive chaos when it reaches console, I'm content.
But they can neglect this hippy Goldilock path as much as they want for all I care. Not interested in having a happyhappyfuntimebearlock on my account. Thanks all the same, but love, hugs and healing is what I got the cleric for.
As long as my warlock can still stand at the center of explosive chaos when it reaches console, I'm content.
But they can neglect this hippy Goldilock path as much as they want for all I care. Not interested in having a happyhappyfuntimebearlock on my account. Thanks all the same, but love, hugs and healing is what I got the cleric for.
Then, as things are now, you shall not be content. That type of play-style for the Warlock is going the way of the Dodo. Keeping things cursed is a pre-req for any type of real "explosive chaos". And making sure things remain cursed is cumbersome at best.
For a class design that seems to be based around curse management/spreading (and unfortunately a need to crit, but being pigeonholed in a specific stat is a different issue) the available tools for actually managing/spreading those curses are few and far between. Not to mention that as is now, Warlocks are pretty much required to take certain feats.
Had I been aware that this class was going to be turned into a primary healing class I would have never wasted my time with it. I already have a DC thank you very much.I have always been an HB fury and after years of pushing for improvements to our defensive side I had finally gotten what I ask for .We saw improvement on our Shadow Slip and BOVA and I got just what I wanted in POP. I was finally able to play without running for my life at all times. So yes a HB Fury was one of the main ones that pushed to get POP and how do they thank me, they remove it from me even being able to use it. The only reason that the healing path even became popular was do to yet another exploit that got into the game. And just last Mod. Damnation got some help to pull it back out of the grave it was sitting in because it was only good for a time because of yet another exploit. But combining both Fury and Damnation into one broken path for those that like DPS. And yet some how while making this class a primary healer they in fact made this class worse at healing. This class was always able to out heal a DC ,not any more. And pushing both DPS path into a giant cluster "F" does not do either of those paths any favors either. We was finally able to remove exploits and you go and add another . Good luck .
[...] Was/Is Warlock really over performing THAT much comparatively to the other classes in your testing? If so, please take the moment to let us know your build/rotations... Because that is certainly NOT what most, if not all, people playing Warlock have been seeing. [...] Thanks again for your time, and please continue the great work!
As @kolatmaster said, it would be great to know what build/rotation is being used by the internal team/testers because if they are not using any bug I don't really see a reason for moving things down in the SW.
If it's based on raw data, it should be noted that there is another critical bug already reported here, it's being able to move while channelling the TAB skill, so with a little army of Immolation Spirits plus the move while channelling TAB you can dish a big amount of (fake) damage.
About Fiery Bold as single target, please don't do it, we already have Killing Flames for that purpose, it (KF) just needs a damage increase plus maybe inherent old Murderous flames.
Will this week release have the Arms of Hadar bug solved? Right now it's still activating the old (Live server) cumulative cooldown of 2 seconds per activation. I just noticed that in last build the spark consumption has been removed and changed to a 2.1 seconds cooldown.
Here's where it starts to get tricky as we have started to put together our next update to Preview, which means work we are doing today won't be seen until the build after that. But here are some future changes in the works:
Warlock base:
Soul Sparks now grant a .15% damage increase per spark, down from .25%
Curse Bite has been reduced to 220 magnitude
Soulweaver:
Shatter Spark, Wraith's Shadow, Harrowstorm, and Soul Pact all got a magnitude increase. Warlock's Bargain's magnitude is unchanged.
Lingering Sustain has been reduced to 150 from 200 magnitude.
Hellbringer:
Hellfire Ring has had its cooldown cut in half. The magnitude is now 100 for the initial hit and 225 for the Dot
Soul Scorch initial damage has been increased slightly, the DoT damage has been decreased slightly. It is 10 magnitude damage initial per soul spark used, and 12 Magnitude Dot (over total time) per soul spark spent.
Feat Risky Investment is now paired with Soul Desecration
Feat Warlock's Curse now does 10% damage boost
Parting Blasphemy has been reduced from 100 magnitude to 75 magnitude
Creeping Death is now paired with Executioner's Gift
Executioner's Gift is now a maximum of 20% boost.
This is in addition to previously mentioned changes and everything is subject to future changes as well. It does sound like several people are against Fiery Bolt being a strong single target power. I'll be looking for feedback on that after the next build goes up to preview and will either swap it back to what it was or leave it as single target based on how people feel after trying it out.
Cursebite is a dominant power in all setups, sounds logical.. but you forgot to buff some of the other encounter, maybe you forgot to write it down?
Hellfire ring sounds pretty strong as an aoe 325/11sec= about 30mag/sec as aoe and looking into lev 80 feat's cooldownreduction, this might be a pretty hard hitting aoe, if those Dots will tic long enough.
Soul Scorch same as before 300mag but more burst, all in all a good decision.
"Feat Risky Investment is now paired with Soul Desecration" .. do you say I can chose between Risky Investment or Soul desecration now? So i have to decide between having a permanent Soulpuppet by my side, or having a Soulpuppet by spawning one plus a 5% buff on top, neither works actually since HG doesn´t work as tooltip says. (now please don´t change tooltip and call it a day) Consequence: Going dps setup I pick Risky Investment, going puppet path I take the puppet but can´t have a buff on top instead buff the puppet itself with Soulinvestiture by HG (if working). I don´t mind tbh. but the more logic setup was the way things were before, 1.Puppet, 2. buff puppet and myself, go with a puppetsetup by using HG in your rotation. Now I get a headache to chose either RI, and by that i am forced to use HG in my rotation to stack that 5% buff even tough HG doesn´t work, or take that "permapuppet" and have the option to buff that puppet even tough I am a pure dps setup, using HG in theory wich spends Sould Investiture (60%+dps for the puppet). I can also just ignore the puppet and just give up using HG as a essential part of my gameplay to take benefit from SI or RI buff. This changes lead to a more rigid setup for the dps path and I myself don´t see the advantage concerning gameplay, looks like a disadvantage to me...
"Creeping Death is now paired with Executioner's Gift" "Executioner's Gift is now a maximum of 20% boost."...hm again buff vs buff to chose, both doing the same in the end. That doesn´t feel good to me. I take Executioner Gift, since Creeping Death is not working. Dps path won an optional stacking 5%-buff (not working) and leadng to a rigid setup but lost a 10% dps increase (not working) so a "patt".
"Feat Warlock's Curse now does 10% damage boost", now there is no reason to even think about Parting Blasphemy any more. Actually PB deals 4-5 %, leads to a more rigid setup and needs to apply a Curse in advance, the weaker and uncomfortable feat is from minor interest, not that I cry about it. aaand has been nerfed on top ....."Parting Blasphemy has been reduced from 100 magnitude to 75 magnitude"I am pretty sure you did some changes to lower some aoe abilities (Cursed Bites) + PB + Executioners gift combined with Creeping death (in theory) but you forgot to buff the rest of warlocks encounter a bit to be from interest. Curse bite will still be first choice (looking at my damgetable above), same as you pick Vampiric embrance, now HG is a must have in theory for puppetbuff/selfbuffs.
Please rethink: - those switched feats, it does not lead to an improvement for the gameplay imo and rethink - the fact that our hardest hitting daily deals 50% compared to other classes, same as - rethink Hellbringer to be condemned to run a critsetup due to "Hellfire Expertise" and associated sparkgain and if you might get to the decision that - dps-warlocks should have the option to run a CA-based setup, same as other classes can, by changing sparkgain into something else, wich would also help undergeared player a lot, please - rethink the reason of having Demonic Vision and Devastating Critical both spending 10% Critseverity - and maybe rethink my proposals about Deadly Curse and ACC, make the class apply Cursen on At Will and change ACC into anything else, same as give Lesser Curse the ability to tic with 25 mag as a permanent ability on the dps path and switch Deadly Curse into something else. Other wise.. I wrote it above 4-5 times, no reply, no feedback so far -> keywords "oneway setup", "no diversity" etc.
About Fiery Bold as single target, please don't do it, we already have Killing Flames for that purpose, it (KF) just needs a damage increase plus maybe inherent old Murderous flames.
We need that all encompassing boom. I think it's integral to the spirit of the Warlock.
TBH I haven't even been slotting Fiery Bolt in my current AoE DPS Warlock setup because it has Curse Synergy and therefore doesn't apply Lesser Curse. Curse Bite, Arms of Hadar, and Hellfire Ring should work even better when Arms' AoE targeting is corrected and Hellfire Ring is adjusted to be usable more frequently.
Comments
If this all takes 4 years again to get stuff into balance and if this mod is released as a 2. "mod 6", when 1000's of bugs came on top, I will delete everything and do a big "Give away"in advance
Warlock base:
- Soul Sparks now grant a .15% damage increase per spark, down from .25%
- Curse Bite has been reduced to 220 magnitude
Soulweaver:- Shatter Spark, Wraith's Shadow, Harrowstorm, and Soul Pact all got a magnitude increase. Warlock's Bargain's magnitude is unchanged.
- Lingering Sustain has been reduced to 150 from 200 magnitude.
Hellbringer:This is in addition to previously mentioned changes and everything is subject to future changes as well. It does sound like several people are against Fiery Bolt being a strong single target power. I'll be looking for feedback on that after the next build goes up to preview and will either swap it back to what it was or leave it as single target based on how people feel after trying it out.
To be honest that’s kind of hard to process without knowing what is being changed in this week’s patch.
I like that the HF Ring has a huge dot, that mitigates the problem with dots a bit, but that problem will always remain. As the other classes get their dps in line with burst damage, dots will become a terrible source of damage again.
Experience playing HB with PoP on live (and OP with CoP and DC with AS) tells me that people will not “stand in the circle” to get buffs, you can forget them doing it just so we can do damage. So I would much rather that 75-90% of any attacks damage come from the initial application and that small remainder of “expected” damage be dots. That way we don’t get gimped by positioning and burst dps classes killing things faster than our dots allow.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Arms of Hadar's AoE is very inconsistent. I think some other conal and line AoE powers like Wizard's Cataclysm and Cleric's Searing Light are having a similar issue. Sometimes targets are unaffected even at nearly point-blank range, well within the expected area of effect.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Consequently, those powers that have never really been useful have a worse impact than before.
For example, Infernal Spheres has always been useless.
In the past this power has been reworked so that it could give us more survivability, but it never became part of the Warlock.
It would certainly be more useful if this were a ranged single target power, perhaps with greater damage, and if it passively reloaded the spheres, removing the part in which the spheres automatically hit the attacker.
The Flames of Phelegethos are unlocked when you reach level 80, so you expect them to be very strong; instead they're just weak.
The skill is weak in single target and in AOE (20% of the heat that expands to nearby enemies is not enough): in both cases no one would use it as it is now.
It would be much more interesting if it were a single target power (without 20% damage to nearby enemies) with a longer duration and the damage that increases over time and / or increases the fire damage that the enemy suffers. Prince of Hell now gives you 2500 Armor penetration: it is sad that a passive can not characterize the gameplay since it has nothing more than any equipment that gives you armor penetration.
The first thing that comes to mind reading the name is hell, so fire. It would be nice to give it an effect that enhances fire damage, something that increases the damage or something like the old talent Murderous Flames. Wrathful Souls, Risky Investment, Soul Desecration and Soul Puppet don't match well with the DPS build, I find them more suitable in the Soulweaver one. This is because the soul puppet has never excelled as a dps feature, so its moderately low dps would have been more useful in soulweaver, perhaps adding some healing / defensive power like Warding Spirit and Wrathful Souls (old) and then some kind of lifesteal that generates aoe healing for nearby allies.
In the current state of the DPS build, there is a lack of some past talents like Spiritfire, Ghastly Commander, Burning Buppet and Wrathful Souls (old). As I already said, the Soul Puppet has never been able to do much DPS, but with the general lowering of the Power Level of this module plus a few tweaks and taking more material from old talents, I believe it could be good.
Small note: the General skills Demonic Vision and Devastating Critical have the exact same effect, I suppose it's incorrect, right?
Basically Infernal Spheres is a lower level worse version of BoVA, we definitely don’t need 2 of those powers in such a limited pool of powers.
@noworries#8859 why doesn’t Hadar’s use the same targeting as Sudden Storm (but shorter and wider)?
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Old "fun brake" that i am i would like to raise my index finger and say "do not overdo it" :-)
E.g. i don't even have to test it to know that making "Fiery Bolt" a single target encounter is not a good idea - imho that is what "Killing Flames" is for.
Probably/hopefully the developers spent a lot of time thinking about the remodeling of the classes and the paragon paths. We should not urge them to question all of this in the heat of the moment. Please, please, please focus on the bugs first and don't allow the wall of "technical debt" to build up.
When I last checked on preview my pet was killing all the mobs before any dots became meaningful, so if there is a decent combination of burst attacks (single target and aoe) that anyone has found effective I'd like to check them out. Preferably not using soul sparks, although if that is the only option then please say so.
Thanks.
Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
Hellbringer is based to some degree on crits as a "core function" -> Hellfire Expertise, to build sparks.
Hadar grasp doesn´t build sparks as a "non crit" (actually same effect on live), same as other powers won´t do.
Some classes/builds are not dependend on crit as a stat same way. Those classes have a free choice to neglect Crit as a hole and build into power/Combat Advantage as many allready are heading for actually.
If you intend to build a warlock that way, you have to know that none of those powers will fill up your core ability (sparks) and you will not be able to use core functions like Soul Scorch, same as builds that spend into both stats (crit and CA) will not work, neither having enough Combat Advatage nor Critrate in front of a boss with high defensive stats.
To sum it up HB-warlocks core mechanic get´s worse the less crits are generated, regarding that the class is build on crit aspects (Demonic Vision+devastating Criticals both +10% Crit Severity)!
If mod 16 get´s released this way this class will have a disadvantage right at the start and your free choice will be either to gimp your basic classmechanic and general aspects or go a pure crit setup to benefit from those aspects.
New statsystem is not well thought imo, since it does not take into account that some classes are more based on crit than others, same as it forces player to build straight into one direction, especially having lower stats.
As it stands right now I predict a Hellbringer to be a crit setup and a Soulweaver to be a non crit setup. By that you have to investe immensely into two completely different gears or simply negelct a complete path, since you are fed up investing that much effort into two different sets. Anyway I am pretty sure warlock is going to be considered as a healer in mod 16 anyway, at least some indicators point into that direction actually.
Beside that a striker/leader as it looks will have to invest anyway into two setups like:
Accuracy, Arp, Power, CA or crit as striker same as
Power, Crit as leader , if I understood the upcoming changes
@noworries#8859 is there a chance to switch "Hellfire Expertise" in a way that is not that dependent on crit? If so there might be a way to have a real choice for stats. A way to build arround it would be to replace "spark on crits" into "sparks on cursed target", in case this is possible at all.
That´s what @thefabricant wrote in another threat:
"Enemies have 24000 of each rating at level 80 (both offensive and defensive).
Accuracy counters deflect.
Armour penetration counters defense.
Crit Resist Counters Crit.
Awareness counters combat advantage.
You have a base CA score of 10% and CA caps at 100% bonus.
You have a base Crit of 5% and crit caps at 50%.
Deflection caps at 50%.
Damage Reduction caps at 80%.
These stats are additive, so if you have 20000 accuracy and the enemy has 40% deflect, their value would be 0. The same applies for all the stats.
All percentage bases for crit and ca ARE countered by the counter stat. For example, with 45% crit from stats and 5% base, if an enemy has 50% crit resist you will not crit.
Debuffs are not diminished anymore.
Break the spirit etc are debuffs and not buffs.
As far as I can tell only 2 group buffs exist and they are multiplicative. Controlled Momentum and feated AA.
Your defensive ratings cannot go negative. For example if an enemy has 20000 armor penetration and you have no damage reduction, it will not increase damage taken by 40%.
The combined rating on gear adds its rating to every single stat. So if you have +500 combined rating, everything is increased by 500.
If you want to know what to stack, the order of importance in short is:
Armor Penetration until capped.
Accuracy until capped.
Power.
You only want to invest in crit and combat advantage if you can stack a lot of either of them and in general you only want to stack 1 of them, the other should be at 0. If you do not have more then 106% crit severity, combat advantage should always be better."
- Garlaanx
I never found the bug.
Just reading this is so depressing.
The more spirits you call, the more they burn your attacker in seconds.
Btw. I remember this to be an old bug, maybe 3-4 years ago, it also happend with the puppet for a short period.
Actually you can´t recall those Spirits on live before the last 2 Spirits disappeared, your daily is wasted doing it before.
About balance, I think you are correct to mention that the class underperforms significant, if you take bugs aside.
Yesterday on live the Alliance chatted about general aspect of classes on preview, reading in a pretty "unmistakeable" form, that some classes actually deal 10-20 times the ammount of damage with At Wills and 8 times the ammount of damage with an aoe encounter, hard to believe tbh. Not sure if that is related to bugs too, but reading about a downgrade in some aspects is not that encouraging, same as I also agree about the need to scale things down to a healthy level.
Actually my "no gear" Hunter (no clue how to play that class) same as "low gear" CW (not much idea on how to do it right) deal near the same ammount of focus-dps on that dummy than my "near maxed" warlock does (maybe never understood the class myself)
Ok , trying to be constructive, deleted that gripy part.
If you compare classes on a dummy , stripped to the bone, about same stats, feats applied, and a testweapon slotted, the ammount of damage one Encounter, Dailies, At Wills deals, compared to another striker it is about 30% to 50%.
Brood of Hadar (Bites incl) 14k vs Snipe 44k
Hand of Blight 200, Rapid Shot 600
Commanding Shot 7.2k, Killing Flame 2.9
and so on
A lot of dps comes from Lesser Curse and Wraith Claw at that state of Equip, so the difference in a hole is not that huge. But only looking at those Dailies, I do have my doubts, that classes are equally setup. Same counts for my DC btw. far bigger numbers, biggest impact Guardian of Faith 33k (100% more than my lock can dish out actually), same for my Wizard 32k daily, did not compare GF actually. And I did check if dodged or not also took effectiveness into account etc.
Warlock hardest hitting Daily = 1/2 of DC and Wizard and about 1/3 of Hunters, can´t make this more transparent actually.
To sum it up: warlock actually has the weakest encounter, the weakes At wills and the weakest daily (cut in half).
But damagesources from additive powers (DOTS)
One thing in that bill stays obvious: the Dailies need to be addressed to be on same level as other classes actually, sicne they are obviously downscaled like At Wills and Encounter
A damagetable looks like this on a single target, take into account that Killing flame is significant lower in general, but dummy was allways near death.
Class feature ACC+Deadly Curse
Lesser Curse 16%, Wraith Claw 9%, Parting Blasphemy 4%, 29% from other sources, if you add Soul Scorch 12% on top 41%.
Actually I can´t tell what happens in a group with all those different damagesources. Warlock is capabale to have much faster encounterreset compared to other classes on top.
Flames of empowerment, wich actually works somehow and is not bugged, stacks till 10 plus Deadly Curse leed to higher LC procs but only few of them, I needed to switch VE vs Hadar Arms to apply LC at all.
FoE and ACC looks like this, the absence of DC leads to pretty low LC procs 1%
From all combinations DC+ACC was the significantly best option, carrying Lesser Curse from the bottom to the top (KF needs to be halved-dead puppet), running through this several times, even though Flames of empowerment did spend a higher dps buff than it should, about 9%. Pretty hard to check with that varying sparkbuff on top.
Antoher point to reinterate, since I have the feeling feedback in this threat get´s neglected to some degree.
The different classfeature to pick from are to some degree not that interesting concerning builddiversity.
Pretending this was actually life and PB fixed, it is from minor impact to chose between PB or Warlocks Curse, one is more consistent, the other leads to a more rigid kind of gameplay, both do similar dps in the end.
Chosing Creeping death + executioners gift or the Puppet + Risky investment 5% (if fixed): they may equal out each other but you have the chance for CA from your puppet on top, CD+EG are more aoe relevant for sure.
Similar result: "Choosing between two damagebuffs to get to the result: one may beat the other slightly in the end but having a puppet". My sight of builds was a bit different like 1. pure dps, 2. more tankyness not another dps setup, but that´s only my thoughts.
Heading forward to lev 80 a puppet could be a more relevant part, since you get an encounterreset per hit, same on SoulScorch tbh on 6 sparks used, we will see.
Picking up the "theme builddiversity" again -> low crit-> lower sparks->lower Soulscorch usage->lower encounterreset-> lower dps ! Puppet-build = only option for noncrit setup as dps.
End of the line, I propose to make Deadly Curse and ACC work different and give Warlock the general ability to apply LC with At Wills, same as make Lesser Curse proc with 25 magnitude on Hellbringer path only, dps needed.
That way you get more choices from class feature. Or maybe as "Hellbringer only" feature ->switch with Dark Prayer. I did some proposals for changes for DC/ACC posts above.
Actually I don´t think warlock is a hopeless case, since rotations run pretty good, but there needs to be some minor and mayor changes to make it viable as dps, can´t tell for Soulweaver not checked that much so far
I have two main characters that I play in the live game, a SW (main) and a DC (hint count not care less about being top dps)
Just some general feedback about the SW on test
Going from live to test it seems you have taken all the fun aspects of playing a SW bundled them up together and thrown them away. Frankly the class seems directionless with a dps path that is out dps’d by its own healing path. After playing upon the SW for a handful of hours in the test environment frankly I could not force myself to continue playing it. At this stage I was very disappointed with mod16 feeling I would move on to a new game. So I switched to my DC.
Chalk and cheese – The dc has a clear direction, plays 1,000,000% better. Class encounters/feats everything explained clearly and at wills and encounters gel together making a theme. The class frankly plays much more fluidly and fast action, similar to live environment. DPS path imo outperforms SW, Healing path imo outperforms SW. SW/DC both are labelled as healers and DPS – I see no reason why anyone would pick a SW over a DC for any reason whatsoever. Mod16 seems a whole lot more fun upon a DC.
Example of difference for DPS – DC single target forge master flame magnitude 800 buffed by burning judgement effect up to I think 1200. Please explain to me the SW equivalent – probably a daily I guess. DC at will magnitude around 60’ish, SW 40’ish.
If I was marking these classes for an exam paper the DC would pass with a good grade, the SW would be advised to apply itself and re-sit the exam in a year’s time.
Sorry for the really negative feedback about the warlock, but I really cannot see any positives in this class at the moment.
Have a lovely day all
Please tell us WHY certain changes are considered
Would it be an option for the next official response to include at least some reasoning behind contemplated changes. The stuff @noworries#8859 listed as changes under consideration does nothing but mystify me, as they in no way seem to have any relation to the feedback provided in this thread. Rather they seem to indicate that the warlock needs to be tuned down, something I cannot find any actual numbers for. My comparisons and testing certainly do not point in that direction. I am not under the illusion that my personal experience, or my failure to find corroborating numbers counts for anything, but having more insight into what data/information IS used in the change process will allow us to provide better and more relevant feedback..
The one change with a clear rationale, turning fiery bolt into a single target power, has seen fierce opposition. Which is acknowledged, in a possibly somewhat petulant way (but I might be viewing that through my perception filter ). However the arguments for that opposition remain utterly unaddressed. If you do not agree with "us". Cool. You are in the position to not have to
DPS Spec Powers:
Dark Spiral Aura - the need to charge this up has always made it a difficult power (except for a time when you could get free charges easily). Replacing with something like Essence Defiler where the ability to gain Soul Sparks would help address the problem the DPS spec has with being able to effectively use its class Tab feature would at least be a viable alternative.
Making Eldritch Blast a clear small AoE (Empowered Daunting Light size) would also give it a clear roll in the line up of the At-Wills, rather than the "hope you hit 1 target 3 times and there is something close enough" power it has always been.
Infernal Spheres - I mean I haven't used Infernal Spheres basically since the original play test of the class was half-way through. Perhaps its time to open the PHB and take a look at Warlock options for an idea or give us back PoP with damage.
Flames of Phelgethos - Brood of Hadar is just a better choice for single target dps
Gates of Hell - at least has a place once we start talking about dungeons, but for solo play I haven't even bothered slotting it.
DPS Spec Feats:
Several of the feats have the problem of what they are paired with, where they create a situation where you have to choose between 2 things that actually have synergy (basically the first 4 feats).
The subsequent eats then come down to "did you choose the puppet" if that is yes, you are going to take the other 2 feats that make it better.
If Double Scorch and Warlock's Curse swapped spots you would at least have an initial choice between improving Soul Scorch and improving Lesser Curse.
Risky Investment's problem is that just from the Power tab you cannot actually tell what it does, regardless of if it does anything.
Aside from Risky Investment (and the bugs with Creeping Death) all the feats seem like a valid choice for one reason or another to me. The problem is more that they are either choices between different boosts for the same thing, or lock you in to a pattern.
The Puppet
I love the puppet, I love that I can still play with it. Its always been my favorite thing about the class. The problem with the puppet is keeping the class balanced between those that have the puppet and those that don't have the puppet. Perhaps a solution is making the puppet always on for all dps specs? Then you can always balance for the puppet, because you know its always there.
But that could just be my bias.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I'll quit. I hate the puppet. I didn't sign up for a Warlock to heal other players or have a stupid puppet do the damage for me.
A puppet? Seriously?
I didn't sign up to be a warlock because I like healing either. Frankly, that was not what the description had said. It didn't say you would suck as a DSP until you got to 18k plus either (and still get out dpsed by a few 16K gwfs). Otherwise I would have picked another class. I chose it because it was a supposed to be a pure damage dealing caster, not a controller. And def not healer.
Anyway, I hear the wizard has positive changes going forward into mod 16.
Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
Was/Is Warlock really over performing THAT much comparatively to the other classes in your testing? If so, please take the moment to let us know your build/rotations... Because that is certainly NOT what most, if not all, people playing Warlock have been seeing.
We are middling of the pack damage wise and middling healing wise.
Healing: Mind you, I actually think our Healing levels are pretty spot on and dynamically different then Paladins and Clerics. Honestly, I don't see much else to do there. I feel our heals are more of a constant Heal Over Time mechanic, w/o the massive solo heal from Cleric, etc. Which is fine, I actually think it's cool that our healing is dependent on our DPS in many regards, that makes it different and dynamic.
DPS: You HAVE to be aware that we've been reporting the Immolation Spirit Bug/Issue for a while now, particularly in this thread. Thus I am moving forward presuming that is the case, as it is completely obvious and basically a hard fact that is spiking Warlock DPS. Which means I would hope that your internal data that you're using for the above 'nerfs' are taking into account the fact that there are Bugged features spiking our DPS, yes?
Basically, I'm concerned/fearful that you're 'nerfing' things above, simply as a response to the 'overall DPS' of the Warlock. Which the 'overall' aspect has the Bugs (that many have reported here) included in its calculations and not running DPS data pertaining to NOT using said bugs.
If my concern/fear is misplaced, and Warlock is somehow over performing all other DPS classes w/o Bugged features, then please say so here! If it is the case that Warlock is somehow rocking face DPS wise comparatively to other DPS classes, who are not receiving as many lower Magnitude adjustments (at least it seams so looking at other Class threads) on their powers, then I'd be happy to try and replicate/test it minus the Immolation Spirits DPS bug.
It's greatly concerning seeing so many lowered powers/effects, comparatively to other classes, when w/o a Bugged feature/effect I can't for the life of me see where there is a major concern over Warlock DPS. Thus I would like to be enlightened...
BTW, to be clear, I think the entire Dev team is doing a phenomenal job on the Test Shard via engagement and answering questions/concerns. I'd just like to see a bit more attention to the Warlock, albeit I'm biased(!), given the general downgrading shown above.
Thanks again for your time, and please continue the great work!
@noworries#8859 here it is
- Invoke Immolation Spirits.
- Wait a few seconds.
- Cast a Heal Over time centered on each one of the two Immolation Spirits.
- Both spirits die and revive.
This process can be repeated with any healing effect that acts in the very moment of their dead, so any heal over time from SW, DC, etc. will keep them alive.
But they can neglect this hippy Goldilock path as much as they want for all I care.
Not interested in having a happyhappyfuntimebearlock on my account. Thanks all the same, but love, hugs and healing is what I got the cleric for.
For a class design that seems to be based around curse management/spreading (and unfortunately a need to crit, but being pigeonholed in a specific stat is a different issue) the available tools for actually managing/spreading those curses are few and far between. Not to mention that as is now, Warlocks are pretty much required to take certain feats.
If it's based on raw data, it should be noted that there is another critical bug already reported here, it's being able to move while channelling the TAB skill, so with a little army of Immolation Spirits plus the move while channelling TAB you can dish a big amount of (fake) damage.
About Fiery Bold as single target, please don't do it, we already have Killing Flames for that purpose, it (KF) just needs a damage increase plus maybe inherent old Murderous flames.
Will this week release have the Arms of Hadar bug solved? Right now it's still activating the old (Live server) cumulative cooldown of 2 seconds per activation. I just noticed that in last build the spark consumption has been removed and changed to a 2.1 seconds cooldown.
Soulsparks now generate a 4.5% buff at max. instead 7.5%. a downgrade, ok
Cursebite is a dominant power in all setups, sounds logical.. but you forgot to buff some of the other encounter, maybe you forgot to write it down?
Hellfire ring sounds pretty strong as an aoe 325/11sec= about 30mag/sec as aoe and looking into lev 80 feat's cooldownreduction, this might be a pretty hard hitting aoe, if those Dots will tic long enough.
Soul Scorch same as before 300mag but more burst, all in all a good decision.
"Feat Risky Investment is now paired with Soul Desecration" .. do you say I can chose between Risky Investment or Soul desecration now? So i have to decide between having a permanent Soulpuppet by my side, or having a Soulpuppet by spawning one plus a 5% buff on top, neither works actually since HG doesn´t work as tooltip says. (now please don´t change tooltip and call it a day)
Consequence: Going dps setup I pick Risky Investment, going puppet path I take the puppet but can´t have a buff on top instead buff the puppet itself with Soulinvestiture by HG (if working).
I don´t mind tbh. but the more logic setup was the way things were before, 1.Puppet, 2. buff puppet and myself, go with a puppetsetup by using HG in your rotation. Now I get a headache to chose either RI, and by that i am forced to use HG in my rotation to stack that 5% buff even tough HG doesn´t work, or take that "permapuppet" and have the option to buff that puppet even tough I am a pure dps setup, using HG in theory wich spends Sould Investiture (60%+dps for the puppet). I can also just ignore the puppet and just give up using HG as a essential part of my gameplay to take benefit from SI or RI buff.
This changes lead to a more rigid setup for the dps path and I myself don´t see the advantage concerning gameplay, looks like a disadvantage to me...
"Creeping Death is now paired with Executioner's Gift"
"Executioner's Gift is now a maximum of 20% boost."...hm again buff vs buff to chose, both doing the same in the end. That doesn´t feel good to me. I take Executioner Gift, since Creeping Death is not working.
Dps path won an optional stacking 5%-buff (not working) and leadng to a rigid setup but lost a 10% dps increase (not working) so a "patt".
"Feat Warlock's Curse now does 10% damage boost", now there is no reason to even think about Parting Blasphemy any more.
Actually PB deals 4-5 %, leads to a more rigid setup and needs to apply a Curse in advance, the weaker and uncomfortable feat is from minor interest, not that I cry about it.
aaand has been nerfed on top ....."Parting Blasphemy has been reduced from 100 magnitude to 75 magnitude"I am pretty sure you did some changes to lower some aoe abilities (Cursed Bites) + PB + Executioners gift combined with Creeping death (in theory) but you forgot to buff the rest of warlocks encounter a bit to be from interest.
Curse bite will still be first choice (looking at my damgetable above), same as you pick Vampiric embrance, now HG is a must have in theory for puppetbuff/selfbuffs.
Please rethink:
- those switched feats, it does not lead to an improvement for the gameplay imo and rethink
- the fact that our hardest hitting daily deals 50% compared to other classes, same as
- rethink Hellbringer to be condemned to run a critsetup due to "Hellfire Expertise" and associated sparkgain and if you might get to the decision that
- dps-warlocks should have the option to run a CA-based setup, same as other classes can, by changing sparkgain into something else, wich would also help undergeared player a lot, please
- rethink the reason of having Demonic Vision and Devastating Critical both spending 10% Critseverity
- and maybe rethink my proposals about Deadly Curse and ACC, make the class apply Cursen on At Will and change ACC into anything else, same as give Lesser Curse the ability to tic with 25 mag as a permanent ability on the dps path and switch Deadly Curse into something else. Other wise.. I wrote it above 4-5 times, no reply, no feedback so far -> keywords "oneway setup", "no diversity" etc.
I think it's integral to the spirit of the Warlock.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH