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  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,140 Arc User

    davidmoki said:


    add that to everything that was meta in m15 is nearly useless in m16 and we will have to change everything from mounts to pet gears, and the extremely boring and longer combat

    Failure to do the former leads to the latter, and other problems.

    That failure to change and learn what is needed leads to the vast majority of problems players have experienced.

    The facade looks the same, but the game is fundamentally different to the Mod 15 game, and you need to take the time to adjust, not just plough in like its a continuation of Mod15.

    That’s not to say that there are not major problems (scaling, last 2 quests are broken), but a lot of the problems players experience are tied to not taking a breath between mods at all to examine what they need to make things work now.
    While this is true, it misses the point entirely. A lot of people are not unable to change merely unwilling.

    To play a slower, duller, less fun game where everything you've worked for is now pretty much worthless and you get forced into playstyles you deliberately avoided up to this point - why bother ? Just find another game, it's not like your massive investment in time and money is worth what it was.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Well, I can understand the reasoning behind scaling...I mean, there is a lot of complaints like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/bb5372/whats_up_with_high_level_players_rushing_lvl_12/

    As long as there is a reason for high-end players to do lower-level content, they will massively outperform the lower-level players unless they are scaled down. The problem is if they get scaled down too aggressively the low-level content is no longer as fun, as it takes away some of the motivation to improve the character.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    Up scale is just as bad. Was raised 1 level on 3rd expedition and gained over 400k HP as well as ratings well above my normal.
    Therefore, even setting dungeons to level 80 and up scale to 80 is not an option either. Unless we want level 70's out performing 80's.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User

    > @adinosii said:

    > Well, I can understand the reasoning behind scaling...I mean, there is a lot of complaints like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/bb5372/whats_up_with_high_level_players_rushing_lvl_12/

    >

    > As long as there is a reason for high-end players to do lower-level content, they will massively outperform the lower-level players unless they are scaled down. The problem is if they get scaled down too aggressively the low-level content is no longer as fun, as it takes away some of the motivation to improve the character.



    Bur herein lies the problem with scaling. High level toons are not going to run low level queues if the time/reward ratio isn't worth it. So for those that complain about that happening now (I do understand where you're coming from, and know it isn't fun when they floorstomp everything), it will get worse as those low level queues dry up.



    To be honest I believe it is going to happen across the board on all random queues as the devs only want end game players earning AD in end game. Just another way to slow the earning of RAD on a daily basis.



    Scaling tends to kill games, as a player we want to see progress in our toons. I don't to run something now and say 8 months later it is same difficulty and find that fun.

    Considering that there's a lot of grinding between hitting max level and being eligible for endgame queues, I'd caution against curtailing that too aggressively.

    You need to get the AD and seals from somewhere to nickel-and-dime your way to qualifying. (and I admit, I'm baffled at how people actually advance meaningfully from there- it can't all be beating your face against the jagged rock that is enchantment refining, can it?)
  • jobelo71#5623 jobelo71 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    Sorry English is not my primary language.

    About Scaling down character.
    I think what they want to achieve is to make sure a dungeon that is 20 minutes long for 10k AD (as example), doesn't turn into 5 minutes long for the same reward (shore of tuern).

    I understand that, and it is logical. it hurt the economy, and bypass the progression they envision in term of AD earned vs time to play (good or bad)

    Now scaling character achieve that, but remove all sens of progression a made. I really like to be overpower in old content.
    This is very enjoyable, and i dont want to lose that (the fun).
    It fun to have challenge in the game, some time it fun to bulldoze everything. I dont like that my team mate low level can do as well as me in a low level dungeon because of the scaling.

    Now could a compromise be to scale down the reward in stead of the player? In my opinion its better. just scale down AD earn base on your character level, items are normally trash if you are high level.

    would the same logic apply when you are scale up? i believe not.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    > @adinosii said:

    > Well, I can understand the reasoning behind scaling...I mean, there is a lot of complaints like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/bb5372/whats_up_with_high_level_players_rushing_lvl_12/

    >

    > As long as there is a reason for high-end players to do lower-level content, they will massively outperform the lower-level players unless they are scaled down. The problem is if they get scaled down too aggressively the low-level content is no longer as fun, as it takes away some of the motivation to improve the character.



    Bur herein lies the problem with scaling. High level toons are not going to run low level queues if the time/reward ratio isn't worth it. So for those that complain about that happening now (I do understand where you're coming from, and know it isn't fun when they floorstomp everything), it will get worse as those low level queues dry up.



    To be honest I believe it is going to happen across the board on all random queues as the devs only want end game players earning AD in end game. Just another way to slow the earning of RAD on a daily basis.



    Scaling tends to kill games, as a player we want to see progress in our toons. I don't to run something now and say 8 months later it is same difficulty and find that fun.

    What I think the devs don't realize is that any player who plays the game and reach 70 now will go to 80 come next mod. This means all 70 content will be challenging and non-rewarding for anyone who reaches level 80. Of those level 80 character a smaller potion will actually be true end game players who will run together to beat content. These are the same player that were in CR within the first 2-3 weeks of mod 14 dropping. Same players who got their ampules within a short time from CoDG.

    The players who are not running CR and CoDG NOW are more likely to have issues when mod 16 drops or any player who is not already 17K+.

    That is where scaling is going to hurt; it will hurt players who go into the new zone when they should finish up older content, with the way scaling is implemented now.

    I'm all for zones and dungeons have max stats that we can achieve. IMO, to make true end game player happy, I would even boost that by 10% or so to let players who go back into the lower zone feel a bit more powerful than when they first hit those areas.

    Using that level 12 dungeon as an example, I would give higher end players stats of a level 15 character. They are stronger but not level 70 strong like they are now.

    Typically bad choices done by the development team is a result of the development team not actually playing the game and getting a feel for it. Some times it is also when a company simply isn't listening to their customers as well.
  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    I wonder if the scaling issue is to prod people into just buying campaign tokens instead of slogging through them? Think about it, if people just hop over the lower campaigns when Mod 16 hits and get to level 80 as fast as they can and still have a lot of lower level stuff to do to get all the boons, (because all equipment at lower levels are now useless) if they make it that much more frustrating (after all the time gated stuff) maybe people will just say screw it and buy tokens. Or perhaps they will just say screw it and stop playing.
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  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 1,018 Arc User

    I wonder if the scaling issue is to prod people into just buying campaign tokens instead of slogging through them? Think about it, if people just hop over the lower campaigns when Mod 16 hits and get to level 80 as fast as they can and still have a lot of lower level stuff to do to get all the boons, (because all equipment at lower levels are now useless) if they make it that much more frustrating (after all the time gated stuff) maybe people will just say screw it and buy tokens. Or perhaps they will just say screw it and stop playing.

    No, they'd have made the boons better rather than worse to irrelevant if this was the intent.

    You would think that but I just can't come up with any reason that is pro-player so, if it's not pro-Zen (pro-Cryptic) to sell more Zen maybe they just don't want higher level people playing lower level stuff any more and take load off the servers?
    Boudica's Sisters - A Guild For Introverts
  • hercules125hercules125 Member Posts: 427 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    I personally wish they'd keep "scaling" as it is on live. Change the random queues to be separate from those who explicitly queue for a specific dungeon or skirmish, issue solved...

    I don't understand why knee-capping endgame players should even be a consideration, just to mollify lower level characters who get paired with random q players. Most players want a sense of progression, that you're better than you were a year ago - as such, the content you did a year ago should most definitely be much easier. Take that away, you take away any real reason to spend any time improving your chhracters.
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
    One of the issues I foresee with scaling is that it will make a lot of stronghold boon quests problematic (stable race, explorer's guild scavenger hunt, etc.)
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  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 1,018 Arc User

    I personally wish they'd keep "scaling" as it is on live. Change the random queues to be separate from those who explicitly queue for a specific dungeon or skirmish, issue solved...

    I don't understand why knee-capping endgame players should even be a consideration, just to mollify lower level characters who get paired with random q players. Most players want a sense of progression, that you're better than you were a year ago - as such, the content you did a year ago should most definitely be much easier. Take that away, you take away any real reason to spend any time improving your chhracters.

    From what I reading directly and via subtext hints is that they are pretty much not catering to the end game players because they don't spend as much Zen as new to mid-level players. But as I pointed out in another post, they have nerfed almost all the Zen store items into the ground to make them a lot less valuable so who the heck knows cuz right now it's a train wreck. The only thing I can come up with is on live MOD16 they will introduce new items (like enchants, companions, etc) that actually have way more value then the stuff currently out there. Otherwise it makes no sense.
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  • vikingozzievikingozzie Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6 Arc User
    Since now that we are going to have trouble getting the stats we need to max them out with the 1000 to 1% how about more options in stats we get since getting both crit and combat advantage is a waste since you can't max them both so any stats that are to low give nothing which could end up both if we aren't getting high enough. Any lower IL players have no chance to get what they need with getting stats that don't work with their build and only hurts with doing content.
  • jehzir#4444 jehzir Member Posts: 6 Arc User



    Area scaling is a stupid idea pure and simple. But to suggest there will be any legal issues is weak. The company is more than covered legally to do whatever they want to the game.

    If the main issue was with high IL players in low tier dungeons maybe the dev's shouldn't have opened up leveling queues to them. Or built an entire queue system around forcing higher IL players into old content to help lower IL players get things done.

    If the issue was players destroying every piece of new content in short time, well, they've been warned about the power creep in the game for years.

    Just about every single "problem" the devs are addressing in this mod are "fixes" to issues that they themselves either forced on us (random queues to make rAD), ignored for years (power creep), or couldn't come up with a good solution (balancing for a lifetime).

    The legal aspect would involve a very simple injunction of: remove the power creep (WoW effects) by reducing massive damages/massive mob hp to the level of damages into a reasonable scale relative to the current top end combat mechanics. That is all the scaling needs to do. They cannot even get that right, how would you trust them to get anything else right?

    The leveling queues are no consequence to many, but others its their AD lifeline. Again, punishing players for completing prior content that many players paid for is not legal in many localities, all you have to do is fine one person willing to file legal action. It has happened before, and can again.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,121 Arc User
    In my opinion, Cryptic team for neverwinter open up the preview too early and rely too much on the community feedback. A developer shouldn't even be discussing game project with their player base. A game supposed to consist 90% game designer effort and 10% community feedback. When u have like 50% designer effort 50% community feedback, u get a game that is in total chaos. It also say much about the team creativity and professionalism. Frankly I have no confidence on a game that uses player ideas. Today it might use your idea but tomorrow the game might use other. There will never be a clear direction and the future is gonna end up with more of these non progressive overhaul to fix the imbalance cause by these ideas. The developer need to figure out their game on their own.

    Also, there is something very wrong with NWO process chart. A proper game developer would have finish their project and then let it go on preview for a week for feedback & bug report. Then another 2 weeks for the final touch up before it goes live. When u open up an unfinished product to the public, all u get are premature feedback clogging up the thread. Everyone are complaining about this not working and that not working while the developer are fully aware of those because its an unfinished product. And when its not fix within that week, more crying are gonna clog up the thread because they have no clue of the plan behind the scene. With all the clogging, extra effort need to put in to filter genuine feedback out etc.. That's so inefficient. Just finish your product before u put in for feedback and discuss the game with your team and not your player base. Its time to figure your own game out.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    Again, punishing players for completing prior content that many players paid for is not legal in many localities, all you have to do is fine one person willing to file legal action. It has happened before, and can again.

    Uhm .... as for "punishing players for completing prior content that many players paid for", I'm not even sure what you are trying to say - I don't see anything resembling that. Second, this is not useful or relevant feedback on the content currently on Preview.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • cabar1cabar1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 124 Arc User
    > @jehzir#4444 said:
    > Area scaling is a stupid idea pure and simple. But to suggest there will be any legal issues is weak. The company is more than covered legally to do whatever they want to the game.
    >
    > If the main issue was with high IL players in low tier dungeons maybe the dev's shouldn't have opened up leveling queues to them. Or built an entire queue system around forcing higher IL players into old content to help lower IL players get things done.
    >
    > If the issue was players destroying every piece of new content in short time, well, they've been warned about the power creep in the game for years.
    >
    > Just about every single "problem" the devs are addressing in this mod are "fixes" to issues that they themselves either forced on us (random queues to make rAD), ignored for years (power creep), or couldn't come up with a good solution (balancing for a lifetime).
    >
    >
    > The legal aspect would involve a very simple injunction of: remove the power creep (WoW effects) by reducing massive damages/massive mob hp to the level of damages into a reasonable scale relative to the current top end combat mechanics. That is all the scaling needs to do. They cannot even get that right, how would you trust them to get anything else right?
    >
    > The leveling queues are no consequence to many, but others its their AD lifeline. Again, punishing players for completing prior content that many players paid for is not legal in many localities, all you have to do is fine one person willing to file legal action. It has happened before, and can again.

    legal? you volunteered to play the game, how are you gonna sue them?
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  • rifter1969rifter1969 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 516 Arc User
    hustin1 said:

    One of the issues I foresee with scaling is that it will make a lot of stronghold boon quests problematic (stable race, explorer's guild scavenger hunt, etc.)

    I've been lurking on the preview forums, and taking everything that people have diligently tested and theorycrafted, and first I would like to say thanks to all those that did.

    But, in all the scaling discussions, what @hustin1 pointed out I haven't seen.

    I'm a GL in a small guild. I am, almost exclusively, doing the SH quests from the Master of Coin, The Builder and so forth, to build up my guild's SH.

    With this scaling implementation, how does that affect quests in Sharandar, Dread Ring and so forth?

    I mean if its going to take my level 70+ main a long time to do 3 quests in Dread Ring, which she can fly through right now, what happens after m16 drops?
    I save up all those quests for the weekend, so she can get through them quickly and move on to actual gameplay. I don't get much time during the week, what with having a 9 to 5 job and a very long commute. If I get 2 hours a night to play and run dungeons, where does that leave me time for the SH?

    Now I hear that SH enemies are going to be level 80, so... doing SH HE's is going to be longer too?

    This potential to SH progression has me quite worried, and frankly I'm concerned that its going to hurt if not out right kill small guilds in trying to make themselves better.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    cabar1 said:

    > @jehzir#4444 said:

    > Area scaling is a stupid idea pure and simple. But to suggest there will be any legal issues is weak. The company is more than covered legally to do whatever they want to the game.

    >

    > If the main issue was with high IL players in low tier dungeons maybe the dev's shouldn't have opened up leveling queues to them. Or built an entire queue system around forcing higher IL players into old content to help lower IL players get things done.

    >

    > If the issue was players destroying every piece of new content in short time, well, they've been warned about the power creep in the game for years.

    >

    > Just about every single "problem" the devs are addressing in this mod are "fixes" to issues that they themselves either forced on us (random queues to make rAD), ignored for years (power creep), or couldn't come up with a good solution (balancing for a lifetime).

    >

    >

    > The legal aspect would involve a very simple injunction of: remove the power creep (WoW effects) by reducing massive damages/massive mob hp to the level of damages into a reasonable scale relative to the current top end combat mechanics. That is all the scaling needs to do. They cannot even get that right, how would you trust them to get anything else right?

    >

    > The leveling queues are no consequence to many, but others its their AD lifeline. Again, punishing players for completing prior content that many players paid for is not legal in many localities, all you have to do is fine one person willing to file legal action. It has happened before, and can again.



    legal? you volunteered to play the game, how are you gonna sue them?

    you can sue for anything. but it's not winnable. you have to show injury somehow and I think that would be very difficult to prove and the amounts of money we are talking are no more than small claims court worthy even if you could prove losses. (which you wouldn't be able to) it's a very silly thing to suggest imo. if you did pursue it you'd end up spending FAR more than you ever lost in this game and you'd still lose.
  • lordaeoloslordaeolos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User



    Now I hear that SH enemies are going to be level 80, so... doing SH HE's is going to be longer too?

    This potential to SH progression has me quite worried, and frankly I'm concerned that its going to hurt if not out right kill small guilds in trying to make themselves better.

    Everything is going to be longer, but SH enemies are not that bad since the level 80 stuff itself doesn't seem to be a problem, just seems to be problems when you are scaled to content... and for the most part scaling is straight up Hamstered ... Maybe it will be fixed by a patch today??

    Also with the 1000 point to 1% ratio, and the stat explosion on gear the stronghold boons are no where near as valuable as they used to be, the difference in boons between a lvl 16 guild and a lvl 20 guild is something like 2% now (most people can't tell a 2% difference during game play without a tool like ACT).

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  • rifter1969rifter1969 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 516 Arc User



    Now I hear that SH enemies are going to be level 80, so... doing SH HE's is going to be longer too?

    This potential to SH progression has me quite worried, and frankly I'm concerned that its going to hurt if not out right kill small guilds in trying to make themselves better.

    Everything is going to be longer, but SH enemies are not that bad since the level 80 stuff itself doesn't seem to be a problem, just seems to be problems when you are scaled to content... and for the most part scaling is straight up Hamstered ... Maybe it will be fixed by a patch today??

    Also with the 1000 point to 1% ratio, and the stat explosion on gear the stronghold boons are no where near as valuable as they used to be, the difference in boons between a lvl 16 guild and a lvl 20 guild is something like 2% now (most people can't tell a 2% difference during game play without a tool like ACT).

    Thanks for that, forgot that they changed the stat percentage ratio.
  • mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 916 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    Doesn't matter. Nothing we say or do will affect mod 16. With less than 2 weeks to go, the focus right now will be on fixing any remaining "showstopper" bugs in time for release. Pestering the devs about anything else will not have any positive effects.

    I would like to draw your attention to this graph of player numbers, however. It shows Steam players of Neverwinter, so the absolute numbers are irrelevant - however, the trends shown there should apply to the general population.


    You can see a big drop at the very start - that's just after Mod 6 was released, and a lot of people gave up and left. You can also see a big increase in June 2018 - that's just after Ravenloft was released. I must point out that AI failed to create a similar spike.

    Now, as you can see, the current player numbers are almost the lowest they have ever been - almost at the rock bottom that was hit in July 2016 - some time after the release of SKT.

    It will be interesting what happens after the release of Undermountain. Will player numbers soar like they did after Ravenloft was released, or will they drop like they did after Mod6 and SKT?

    I am sure there have been a few "what did we do wrong" meetings over the years, when new modules have failed to capture the interest of players or resulted in a drop in Zen purchases - right now we just have to hope they manage to fix the major issues fairly quickly after release so we don't see a major collapse in player numbers and they can avoid another such meeting.

    Since there is no tutorial system (campaign would have been great place to add this) to teach players the changes this will have many give up and stop playing. WE in effect have all the classes removed and replace with classes with simular names this also have not been made clear to the public that will be shocked and probably some will leave due to that shock.

    I really hope i am wrong but i think with the lack of preparations the bound exchange and the massive changes (that i am not saying is wrong) this will be be the most hated mod yet
    There are more than BIS players in this game
    It has been 5 YEARS since last new class this is getting ridiculous
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Please do master/normal version of dungeons. This way content for all MOD 19 have nothing new for vast majority of player base. Giving an EVENT is not same thing as permanent content for non BIS. As we suggested in CDP
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



  • miotest#5683 miotest Member Posts: 29 Arc User

    Well, if it eases your concern a little, there's no point in upgrading your enchantments. You're not not going to get more out of them than about R10 anyway. I've seen my r13s scaled lower than 8s to run some lvl 70 content and dungeons.

    Final inflation statistics went so far as to pay around 40M AD for upgrading 40 sources (3xstandard runestone for new comp. equipment, 9xenchantments, 15xinsignias, 5xcomp. player bonus, 8x reinf. Kit + jewels) = about 10% offensive statistic vs total about 420% offensive statistics (power + crit. chance + combat advantage + accuracy), only about + 4 % extra DPS. This will be a constant breakdown of statistics with new equipment in other modes due to the increase in "combined ratings" and possible override of the ratings in the equipment can not fine-tune, etc. Who will try to invest will only balance the cosmetic changes.
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