The wording they have been using stating that Leadership is converting to Gathering is unfortunate. Because if you really examine it closely, you see that that is an incorrect statement. What is actually happening is that Leadership is being deleted. Completely removed. Gathering is not "the new Leadership". It is a different thing altogether.
Spot on, except for the last statement. Gathering is not different. Gathering is a new profession, split from all professions except Leadership.
And given at max level for free for anyone who has any other profession at max level.
> @theycallmetomu said: > > @theycallmetomu said: > > > The dev team thinks that there should only be one way to play this game, their way. Any other play styles are not how they intend for the game to be played so they will try to kill it. > > Sure, but the question is, why? > > Why do they care? > > I mean, there's a dozen different possible theories I could spot. I feel like the player base likes to act like it's just ego and forgo seeking any other sort of explanation. Personally I suspect it's marketing related.
I go back to the old saying of "follow the money." I'd bet a dollar to doughnuts that there was a memo (that we will never see) from the ivory tower (Perfect World in China) that said, "find ways to make people buy more Zen." Think about it every major change in the last few Mods has been targeted to reduce the amount of AD you can make (including this one). And as you know if you can't make as much AD then you can't exchange as much for Zen. Meaning to get Zen you'll have to buy it.
Don't believe me? Then why is nearly everything in the new professions character bound? Not even account bound! So now you have to spend Zen to try to get past a new RNG wall to get the new profession items sooner. And you won't even be able to make that investment back because everything you make will be character bound. So you get to do that on every character. Can you say money sink?
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zephyriahMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,980Arc User
> The dev team thinks that there should only be one way to play this game, their way. Any other play styles are not how they intend for the game to be played so they will try to kill it.
>
> Sure, but the question is, why?
>
> Why do they care?
>
> I mean, there's a dozen different possible theories I could spot. I feel like the player base likes to act like it's just ego and forgo seeking any other sort of explanation. Personally I suspect it's marketing related.
I go back to the old saying of "follow the money." I'd bet a dollar to doughnuts that there was a memo (that we will never see) from the ivory tower (Perfect World in China) that said, "find ways to make people buy more Zen." Think about it every major change in the last few Mods has been targeted to reduce the amount of AD you can make (including this one). And as you know if you can't make as much AD then you can't exchange as much for Zen. Meaning to get Zen you'll have to buy it.
Don't believe me? Then why is nearly everything in the new professions character bound? Not even account bound! So now you have to spend Zen to try to get past a new RNG wall to get the new profession items sooner. And you won't even be able to make that investment back because everything you make will be character bound. So you get to do that on every character. Can you say money sink?
I thought it was already said that the bound status was an error previously in this thread.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
> The dev team thinks that there should only be one way to play this game, their way. Any other play styles are not how they intend for the game to be played so they will try to kill it.
>
> Sure, but the question is, why?
>
> Why do they care?
>
> I mean, there's a dozen different possible theories I could spot. I feel like the player base likes to act like it's just ego and forgo seeking any other sort of explanation. Personally I suspect it's marketing related.
I go back to the old saying of "follow the money." I'd bet a dollar to doughnuts that there was a memo (that we will never see) from the ivory tower (Perfect World in China) that said, "find ways to make people buy more Zen." Think about it every major change in the last few Mods has been targeted to reduce the amount of AD you can make (including this one). And as you know if you can't make as much AD then you can't exchange as much for Zen. Meaning to get Zen you'll have to buy it.
Don't believe me? Then why is nearly everything in the new professions character bound? Not even account bound! So now you have to spend Zen to try to get past a new RNG wall to get the new profession items sooner. And you won't even be able to make that investment back because everything you make will be character bound. So you get to do that on every character. Can you say money sink?
Okay, but,
Why is that a bad thing? The game has to be profitable in order to hire developers and maintenance staff. I get people don't like it, but we should at least acknowledge that the game has to incentivize purchasing Zen in order to continue existing.
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rickcase276Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,404Arc User
edited September 2018
Only issue is, other than ViP, to exchange for AD and if you are not lucky pres wards and coals, what is there really that most people would even bother to buy zen for? There has to be something that people absolutely have to have from zen for that argument to really have merit. Until they put more and better stuff in the zen shop that will remain the problem. Nothing in the current professions is going to make more people buy zen, as you can get equivolent artisans from normal gameplay to those that you can buy with zen.
Do you ever play the game where you line people up and whisper something into the first person's ear, then that phrase is passed from person to person. Then you have the last person speak the phrase. It bears no resemblance to what was initially said. Reading these comments is a lot like that.
What is on the test server is incomplete. It is spelled out in the patch notes. The shell of the system is there. Many recipes are missing, the level transfer is not properly setup, etc.
So much of people's issues are completely unfounded. So much misinformation being spewed regarding the professions.
You guys are really going to go apeshit when they load the newest patch on test and revert your characters to before the M15 patch. Everything you have done since the last patch on Test is going to be reverted to what it was before the patch.
Oh...did you fail to see that little tidbit in the patch notes? The next patch is going to be a more complete look at M15. I would recommend folding your panties and stop wadding them up, at least until you see the next patch on Test.
I mean, there's a dozen different possible theories I could spot. I feel like the player base likes to act like it's just ego and forgo seeking any other sort of explanation. Personally I suspect it's marketing related.
"Have it your way" is marketing "Be reasonable do it my way" is not.
> I go back to the old saying of "follow the money." I'd bet a dollar to doughnuts that there was a memo (that we will never see) from the ivory tower (Perfect World in China) that said, "find ways to make people buy more Zen." Think about it every major change in the last few Mods has been targeted to reduce the amount of AD you can make (including this one). And as you know if you can't make as much AD then you can't exchange as much for Zen. Meaning to get Zen you'll have to buy it. > > > > Don't believe me? Then why is nearly everything in the new professions character bound? Not even account bound! So now you have to spend Zen to try to get past a new RNG wall to get the new profession items sooner. And you won't even be able to make that investment back because everything you make will be character bound. So you get to do that on every character. Can you say money sink? > > I thought it was already said that the bound status was an error previously in this thread.
Thank you for pointing that out. I missed that post. Good to know.
> @theycallmetomu said: > > @theycallmetomu said: > > > > @theycallmetomu said: > > > > > > > > > The dev team thinks that there should only be one way to play this game, their way. Any other play styles are not how they intend for the game to be played so they will try to kill it. > > > > > > Sure, but the question is, why? > > > > > > Why do they care? > > > > > > I mean, there's a dozen different possible theories I could spot. I feel like the player base likes to act like it's just ego and forgo seeking any other sort of explanation. Personally I suspect it's marketing related. > > > > I go back to the old saying of "follow the money." I'd bet a dollar to doughnuts that there was a memo (that we will never see) from the ivory tower (Perfect World in China) that said, "find ways to make people buy more Zen." Think about it every major change in the last few Mods has been targeted to reduce the amount of AD you can make (including this one). And as you know if you can't make as much AD then you can't exchange as much for Zen. Meaning to get Zen you'll have to buy it. > > > > Don't believe me? Then why is nearly everything in the new professions character bound? Not even account bound! So now you have to spend Zen to try to get past a new RNG wall to get the new profession items sooner. And you won't even be able to make that investment back because everything you make will be character bound. So you get to do that on every character. Can you say money sink? > > Okay, but, > > Why is that a bad thing? The game has to be profitable in order to hire developers and maintenance staff. I get people don't like it, but we should at least acknowledge that the game has to incentivize purchasing Zen in order to continue existing.
Don't get me wrong I know and believe that the company needs to make money. But what I'm trying to get across is that if they continue to push to make a game that there is only one way to play they will drive away all the other players and thus lose money. Apparently they believe that either their way is so superior that they are willing to kill the game or that they can afford the lose of players.
Why do you think Skyrim was so popular? Do you think it would have been that popular if the only way to play was running around with a sword hitting stuff? No, it was popular because there were a hundred different ways to play. Instead they are trying to create a niche market game inside a niche market. How well do you think that is going to work?
Overall, we intend for the new system to have longer periods of hands on and much longer periods of hands off, without needing to be micromanaged excessively.
This sounds great, but at the moment repeat tasks get cancelled when the delivery box is full, in this philosophy it would make more sense if the repeat tasks would merely be paused until there is room in the delivery box. It would make the most sense if it was paused at the end of a task, rather than the start or half-way - as the artisan is returning to the box with their results.
-- On the workbench crafting dialog, make display options to “show only intermediate materials,” “show only professions tools,” “show only finished products”
Instead of a pop-up dialog, these should be checkboxes on the side of the Professions dialog, perhaps below the list of items in the center
-- When you look at “Current Gathering Tasks,” a pop-up tooltip should show the artisan and tool (and supplement) assigned to that task. Same for current workbench tasks
-- If a task is on “repeat forever,” have an option to say “stop after this the current iteration is finished”
-- When your delivery box gets full, all tasks should go on “pause” rather than be cancelled. After you collect from your delivery box, those tasks should automatically restart, with the exception of final item tasks.
It will be much more common to want these tasks to continue easily, and this would eliminate both grind and having to remember who was doing what. If we want to change the tasks, then we can cancel tasks that have just started, with no loss of time.
This guy has awesome ideas! including the one I just wrote out lol.
-- disclaimer: I have read everything starting with my first comment, to the end of page 14, possibly Asterdahl already replied to that comment on pages 15 through 17 but while I do want to read everything up to live, I also want to supply timely feedback so I am posting this comment before catching up entirely.
Although these items are unlikely to be ready for launch, we are taking the feedback under advisement for future quality of life improvements. The ability for tasks to automatically continue once the box has been emptied for instance was something we would have liked to have available at launch, but will take some time due to some technical limitations with how the system was originally built. (Despite looking dramatically different, the professions system was built on top of the fundamentals of the original system.)
speed multiplier increases ---- time to produce decreases
commission multiplier increases ----- cost to produce increases
somehow I would expect a 50% speed multiplier to mean artisan finished in 1/2 the time, but it means he takes twice as long
We will be changing the display on speed, commission and experience boosts to be significantly less confusing.
In a future preview build you will read "Speed: +100%" and this will make the task take half the time, "Speed: -50%" will make the task take twice as long. Commission will display as "Commission: +50%" and mean that a 2 gold cost will cost 3 gold. Meanwhile a "Commission: -50%" will knock a 2 gold cost down to 1.
I did not see this question asked or answered, if it was I apologize in advance........what is going to happen to the profession boxes we get from lockboxes?? they currently give green to purple assets and profession people, will those go away, turn into credits like our current workers are or change to just assets for the new system????
After the update you will continue to be able to open the boxes as they are now, and exchange whatever items may be exchanged via your retainer.
I do think the goal is to get less people to do professions, yes. Now the question we are left with is, why is that their goal?
Understandably my original comments have resulted in all manner of speculation, but I would like to once again attempt to clarify: the changes to professions have not been designed to specifically reduce or increase the number of people engaged in professions.
We made changes with the goal of making the system more enjoyable for those who like to craft at a conceptual level, not those who specifically found its current implementation to be a lightweight way to generate in-game revenue. We built the system to have more gameplay; to give those who engaged more opportunities to make items that would be useful to themselves and their friends; to create more opportunities to sell and trade items; and to hopefully reduce the tedium for those who are engaged in the system.
A lot of people no doubt engaged in the old system because as some have said, to not engage would be "leaving money on the table." It's not that you particularly found the system fun or the moment to moment gameplay enjoyable. Understandably, if you engaged to not leave money on the table, and are generally not someone who enjoys crafting, these changes may actually make the whole thing seem more tedious, because you'll be engaging in bigger albeit less frequent chunks.
But changes that make professions seem "more tedious" to those who engage solely for profit was not at all the goal of the new system, but an unavoidable byproduct. A professions system which promotes trading and primarily generates wealth for those engaged by sales to other players is healthier for the economy and creates more enjoyable gameplay for those who want to craft for the fun of it. (It also creates opportunities for others to profit by selling things to crafters that they need.) A system where an upfront investment results in an infinite stream of revenue that requires no continued input from the economy encourages everyone to engage for fear of losing out.
Overall, we intend for the new system to have longer periods of hands on and much longer periods of hands off, without needing to be micromanaged excessively.
This sounds great, but at the moment repeat tasks get cancelled when the delivery box is full, in this philosophy it would make more sense if the repeat tasks would merely be paused until there is room in the delivery box. It would make the most sense if it was paused at the end of a task, rather than the start or half-way - as the artisan is returning to the box with their results.
-- On the workbench crafting dialog, make display options to “show only intermediate materials,” “show only professions tools,” “show only finished products”
Instead of a pop-up dialog, these should be checkboxes on the side of the Professions dialog, perhaps below the list of items in the center
-- When you look at “Current Gathering Tasks,” a pop-up tooltip should show the artisan and tool (and supplement) assigned to that task. Same for current workbench tasks
-- If a task is on “repeat forever,” have an option to say “stop after this the current iteration is finished”
-- When your delivery box gets full, all tasks should go on “pause” rather than be cancelled. After you collect from your delivery box, those tasks should automatically restart, with the exception of final item tasks.
It will be much more common to want these tasks to continue easily, and this would eliminate both grind and having to remember who was doing what. If we want to change the tasks, then we can cancel tasks that have just started, with no loss of time.
This guy has awesome ideas! including the one I just wrote out lol.
-- disclaimer: I have read everything starting with my first comment, to the end of page 14, possibly Asterdahl already replied to that comment on pages 15 through 17 but while I do want to read everything up to live, I also want to supply timely feedback so I am posting this comment before catching up entirely.
Although these items are unlikely to be ready for launch, we are taking the feedback under advisement for future quality of life improvements. The ability for tasks to automatically continue once the box has been emptied for instance was something we would have liked to have available at launch, but will take some time due to some technical limitations with how the system was originally built. (Despite looking dramatically different, the professions system was built on top of the fundamentals of the original system.)
speed multiplier increases ---- time to produce decreases
commission multiplier increases ----- cost to produce increases
somehow I would expect a 50% speed multiplier to mean artisan finished in 1/2 the time, but it means he takes twice as long
We will be changing the display on speed, commission and experience boosts to be significantly less confusing.
In a future preview build you will read "Speed: +100%" and this will make the task take half the time, "Speed: -50%" will make the task take twice as long. Commission will display as "Commission: +50%" and mean that a 2 gold cost will cost 3 gold. Meanwhile a "Commission: -50%" will knock a 2 gold cost down to 1.
I did not see this question asked or answered, if it was I apologize in advance........what is going to happen to the profession boxes we get from lockboxes?? they currently give green to purple assets and profession people, will those go away, turn into credits like our current workers are or change to just assets for the new system????
After the update you will continue to be able to open the boxes as they are now, and exchange whatever items may be exchanged via your retainer.
I do think the goal is to get less people to do professions, yes. Now the question we are left with is, why is that their goal?
Understandably my original comments have resulted in all manner of speculation, but I would like to once again attempt to clarify: the changes to professions have not been designed to specifically reduce or increase the number of people engaged in professions.
We made changes with the goal of making the system more enjoyable for those who like to craft at a conceptual level, not those who specifically found its current implementation to be a lightweight way to generate in-game revenue. We built the system to have more gameplay; to give those who engaged more opportunities to make items that would be useful to themselves and their friends; to create more opportunities to sell and trade items; and to hopefully reduce the tedium for those who are engaged in the system.
A lot of people no doubt engaged in the old system because as some have said, to not engage would be "leaving money on the table." It's not that you particularly found the system fun or the moment to moment gameplay enjoyable. Understandably, if you engaged to not leave money on the table, and are generally not someone who enjoys crafting, these changes may actually make the whole thing seem more tedious, because you'll be engaging in bigger albeit less frequent chunks.
But changes that make professions seem "more tedious" to those who engage solely for profit was not at all the goal of the new system, but an unavoidable byproduct. A professions system which promotes trading and primarily generates wealth for those engaged by sales to other players is healthier for the economy and creates more enjoyable gameplay for those who want to craft for the fun of it. (It also creates opportunities for others to profit by selling things to crafters that they need.) A system where an upfront investment results in an infinite stream of revenue that requires no continued input from the economy encourages everyone to engage for fear of losing out.
If you want to promote sales between players you need a situation where it's impossible for any single player to be entirely self sufficient or at the very least not sufficient in as low cost a manner as buying from another player.
Giving everyone who had enough interest in crafting to max out a profession, gathering at max level undercuts that greatly.
In the new system why should anyone ever go to the AH to buy mats ? They can make them themselves at a price that will likely be at least 10% less than the AH equivalent.
If you want to promote sales between players you need a situation where it's impossible for any single player to be entirely self sufficient or at the very least not sufficient in as low cost a manner as buying from another player.
Giving everyone who had enough interest in crafting to max out a profession, gathering at max level undercuts that greatly.
In the new system why should anyone ever go to the AH to buy mats ? They can make them themselves at a price that will likely be at least 10% less than the AH equivalent.
Why do Mastercrafters buy mats from the AH when they could farm them for cheaper? Why do they buy from the SH vendors instead of running gathering tasks? The same exact reason crafters will be buying mats off the AH in a system where gathering tasks cannot be rushed.
If you want to promote sales between players you need a situation where it's impossible for any single player to be entirely self sufficient or at the very least not sufficient in as low cost a manner as buying from another player.
Giving everyone who had enough interest in crafting to max out a profession, gathering at max level undercuts that greatly.
In the new system why should anyone ever go to the AH to buy mats ? They can make them themselves at a price that will likely be at least 10% less than the AH equivalent.
Why do Mastercrafters buy mats from the AH when they could farm them for cheaper? Why do they buy from the SH vendors instead of running gathering tasks? The same exact reason crafters will be buying mats off the AH in a system where gathering tasks cannot be rushed.
Time.
You mean time while you are doing other things ? Mastercrafters by the way had bigger roadblocks like trying to deal with chult when it first came out. Which was one of the several reasons the mats were so valuable. It was hard to farm. Anyway in this case the products of gathering will likely be in such oversupply that there will be a race to the bottom of incredible proportion.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
I can't imagine the "race to the bottom" to be any moreso a race to the bottom then the old professions system was.
In any event, I'm glad to see my speculation about "leaving money on the table" wasn't that far off. Ironically, I think the new system, by making it more of a time investment to engage in, feels less like leaving money on the table simply because there's fewer people that are going to end up doing it. Which is good; people who enjoy crafting get to enjoy crafting.
I mean heck, if it weren't for the fact that I found the system as implemented on preview so wildly unintuitive, I might have enjoyed the new crafting system!
@asterdahl From another thread: I think we need to bring this up in the official feedback thread, because it is going to become impossible to donate labor to the guild coffers with mod 15.
Yes I know @asterdahl said crafting crates would be coming back, but I'm assuming they're bringing them back under whatever profession they're currently under and since they're removing Leadership entirely then both crating crate of labor and AD will be gone. Which means to all effects that donating labor is no longer possible. So any guild now mazed out by mod 15 will be effectively screwed. There might be a possibility from profession crates which will give vouchers which can either be exchanged for stuff in the new system or donated to coffers, but that will be prohibitively expensive and hence not a viable method. I'm wondering if this is an unintentional side consequence or wai.
I'm leaving it in cyan because well it's kinda feedback and I really think the player base needs and deserves an answer to this. How do we create labor to donate to guild in mod 15. And AD too because with the additional nerfs to earning of RAD donating real AD is not going to be viable either.
I also love how only crafting for profit is seen as being the target for this overhaul. Crafting for helping out a guild is being shrugged off as being unimportant, yet this has always been am integral part of the Stronghold system. @asterdahl what is being done to alleviate this or change Strondhold donation process so that the all too great likelihood many who now craft to donate crates will stop because the new system is too unwieldy and counter intuitive, not to mention some of the stuff you can craft to donate will cease to exist by all appearances, will be mitigated? Or are you content to screw over guilds that are not yet maxed out, especially smaller guilds that doesn't have several hundred members?
Edit: Sorry I seem to have misremembered. Leadership only gives AD crates. Still I can't find a profession in game that currently gives crates of labor. Probably because in the current system you can donate the people you hire. With that being changed in mod 15 my main point still stands. How do we donate labor to the guild coffers in mod 15? The vouchers from quest and random drops is not going to be enough. Ditto for AD with Leadership being removed.
Post edited by ilithyn on
Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
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zephyriahMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,980Arc User
@asterdahl From another thread: I think we need to bring this up in the official feedback thread, because it is going to become impossible to donate labor to the guild coffers with mod 15.
Yes I know @asterdahl said crafting crates would be coming back, but I'm assuming they're bringing them back under whatever profession they're currently under and since they're removing Leadership entirely then both crating crate of labor and AD will be gone. Which means to all effects that donating labor is no longer possible. So any guild now mazed out by mod 15 will be effectively screwed. There might be a possibility from profession crates which will give vouchers which can either be exchanged for stuff in the new system or donated to coffers, but that will be prohibitively expensive and hence not a viable method. I'm wondering if this is an unintentional side consequence or wai.
I'm leaving it in cyan because well it's kinda feedback and I really think the player base needs and deserves an answer to this. How do we create labor to donate to guild in mod 15. And AD too because with the additional nerfs to earning of RAD donating real AD is not going to be viable either.
I also love how only crafting for profit is seen as being the target for this overhaul. Crafting for helping out a guild is being shrugged off as being unimportant, yet this has always been am integral part of the Stronghold system. @asterdahl what is being done to alleviate this or change Strondhold donation process so that the all too great likelihood many who now craft to donate crates will stop because the new system is too unwieldy and counter intuitive, not to mention some of the stuff you can craft to donate will cease to exist by all appearances, will be mitigated? Or are you content to screw over guilds that are not yet maxed out, especially smaller guilds that doesn't have several hundred members?
Edit: Sorry I seem to have misremembered. Leadership only gives AD crates. Still I can't find a profession in game that currently gives crates of labor. Probably because in the current system you can donate the people you hire. With that being changed in mod 15 my main point still stands. How do we donate labor to the guild coffers in mod 15? The vouchers from quest and random drops is not going to be enough. Ditto for AD with Leadership being removed.
No, you were correct. Leadership crafts labor as a level 17 task. However, they have already said in this thread that there will be new sources of labor items for donation.
Second, nowhere have they said that these crates are being removed from the game as of yet. They have only said that crafting crates are not yet on preview. You are making an assumption, which may or may not turn out to be true. We need to wait a bit to draw any conclusion. Moving the ability to craft those crates to a different profession is just a possible as them eliminating them due to leadership removal. This is my hope, but we will see.
Just had a question about the level of the Workshop when this goes live for those with professions at lvl 25. I know the individual profession will be 70 in the transfer, but will the Workshop be level 1, and would need to be upgraded (as well as all the Artisans)?
If so, how about providing an upgrade token for those with Leadership at say 10 or above to auto upgrade the Workshop to lvl4 immediately? Or a single level upgrade token for every 5 levels in current leadership above 4 (eg Leadership lvl 5-9 gets 1 token; Leadership lvl 10-14 gets 2 tokens, etc), so again, a lvl 20+ would go straight to a lvl4 Workshop. I suspect the number of players that have a lvl 25 Alchemy or Leatherworking, for example, but 0 or few ranks in Leadership is markedly low.
I strongly suspect you will be selling such an upgrade in the Zen store (if not, you should). It would allow for everyone who currently wants to continue to do professions with as minimal an interruption as possible to do so. Yes, a short downtime in converting old assets to new and getting your Artisan level up, but it will provide a strong trade economy very quickly, as well as relieving those who currently use it for Guild building to continue with that focus. If not Workshop upgrade tokens, then Artisan training tokens.
I understand the desire to clean slate and not create the same problems of current Leadership/Alt armies, but I think you really need to consider providing something for Leadership, let alone dropping Black Ice and the merging of Mailsmithing and Platesmithing - tokens may not relieve the pain, but they are an appreciation of the effort people have put into the game - and really, I just want to get back to enjoying it quickly, not grinding through another time-wall...
Might is not always right - the powerful sometimes forget that.
So because the idea of doing the stuff was perceived by the developers as not fun thats why its being chamged. Let me think about that for a second... No, not at all. Grinding out still bugged Castle Ravenloft just to get Seals to get gear is not fun. Burning the scrolls due to the second sister being bugged is not fun. Generating refinement off of something that I invested my time patience and purchased hero s to do thats fun. If you are gonna nerf it just say you are nerfing it. "Don't fake the funk, on a nasty dunk."
Tried new system a bit. Definitely unfinished and many things/bugs have been said/reported, but overall, not bad at all. Will try to not repeat what have been said, but, IMHO, ingredients/mats that are tied to some mods SHOULDN'T been removed!!! Like whole BI prof and mats (i know that ice itself won't be removed and i don't mind at all if items you can craft now can be bought directly, but BI prof should still be there at least for overload enchants and for empower normal version of items that can be bought in store), items like Dragon Egg (Tiamat), elemental items (fire, water...), etc.
Regarding “account wide” anything…. I’m assuming each workshop and everything to do with it (artisans/tools and especially recipes/progress) will be character specific, for a whole bunch of reasons….
But the one thing I would like to see be account wide, assuming this is still relevant, is the *inventory of resources*. I’ve spent a *huge* amount of time (and no doubt, server load) switching from one toon to another getting all the resources I need to one toon and then back again. It would be a huge convenience and efficiency to be able to have all toons access a shared professions-resource-specific inventory.
RE: Account wide: The workshop will be character specific. We don't currently have the ability to easily make the professions materials or assets bag account shared, but it's not impossible in the future.
This is a must IMO and i already mention/asked for an account-wide mats a long time ago. While, initially, i thought that an actual mat bag should be made account wide so it's transparent to the user, this could be a bit difficult to implement. Here is another way, i think, much more easier: create an account wide chest in the workshop, the same way account wide BANK slots works now. Make it, lets say, 50 slots and add filter to it, so only mats can be moved there. Be it manually moving from our personal mat bag or a "Sync all" button, for example. This system should be much easier to implement and it's not new, so, most of the code could be just a copy-paste. And when crafting... well, system could check both personal bag and workshop chest for mats, use mats from personal bag first and, if needed, take more from workshop "bank".
Waiting for today's preview patch to see improvements
Request: Make it so we can craft new or old transmutes as part of the new system. I’d like something to chase other than stats when creating gear. I’d even be game for a randomness involved. Say you craft a piece of armor, it has great stats, and has a chance to look amazing (but not all armor of this type and stat gets the skin).
Froger - Barbarian - Original Main - The Freak Core - Xbone Jade - Cleric - Healer Main - The Freak Core - Xbone Magnus - Fighter - Tank for queues - The Freak Core - Xbone Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Bardholomew - Bard - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Sirona - Cleric - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Why is that a bad thing? The game has to be profitable in order to hire developers and maintenance staff. I get people don't like it, but we should at least acknowledge that the game has to incentivize purchasing Zen in order to continue existing.
There is a difference between making Zen worth purchasing, and unfairly compensating you for spent Zen by introducing such crazy RNG into store-purchased items. Why is it that it's acceptable to purchase things from a store for a video game and have no HAMSTER clue what you're actually going to get? If you go to any other store anywhere, whether online or brick-and-mortar, you know exactly what you're purchasing and can decide whether the juice is worth the squeeze before you hand over your cash. For some reason, gamers and game developers have this attitude that game developers have the right to make you spend money in the hopes that you'll get what you want - or that what you get will be of value within the game setting. In the real world, that's called "gambling" and it's highly regulated for a reason.
Why is that a bad thing? The game has to be profitable in order to hire developers and maintenance staff. I get people don't like it, but we should at least acknowledge that the game has to incentivize purchasing Zen in order to continue existing.
There is a difference between making Zen worth purchasing, and unfairly compensating you for spent Zen by introducing such crazy RNG into store-purchased items. Why is it that it's acceptable to purchase things from a store for a video game and have no HAMSTER clue what you're actually going to get? If you go to any other store anywhere, whether online or brick-and-mortar, you know exactly what you're purchasing and can decide whether the juice is worth the squeeze before you hand over your cash. For some reason, gamers and game developers have this attitude that game developers have the right to make you spend money in the hopes that you'll get what you want - or that what you get will be of value within the game setting. In the real world, that's called "gambling" and it's highly regulated for a reason.
Not really. Go into a restaurant and you are not really sure what you are getting.
There are lots of mislabeled items on Amazon and outright misinformation, including bogus recommendations.
Ever play the claw machines? You can try for something, but might not get it.
Many stores used to have gumball machines that would spit out random stuff.
Gambling has been a part of human nature forever. When you gamble, you are not sure what you are getting. It is highly regulated because of skin games. It was easy for the house to cheat. You are correct that much of gaming provides random rewards. It is a way for the gaming companies to make more money and keep people interested in playing.
And so far as entertainment, these free to play (and the pay to play) online games are cheap compared to going to a movie, buying a blue ray, going to a concert, going out to eat, etc. Divide the money you spend by the number of hours you play and it will be a small $/hour. Much cheaper than other entertainment.
I understand the desire to clean slate and not create the same problems of current Leadership/Alt armies, but I think you really need to consider providing something for Leadership, let alone dropping Black Ice and the merging of Mailsmithing and Platesmithing - tokens may not relieve the pain, but they are an appreciation of the effort people have put into the game - and really, I just want to get back to enjoying it quickly, not grinding through another time-wall...
What is with the whole "Alt armies", as if having multiple character, of which you bought slots with zen, and the rising each one of these with the huge number of hours it takes to bring these up to close to max level, etc. Why is this a bad thing? Some people farm seals, others run randoms for AD on multiple accounts, everyone has their play style.
Personally I have a toon for every class just to try each out with an open slot for a new class (if one ever comes). What is the point of a bank (and, again with extra zen purchased slots), shared mailbox, account wide anything if it wrong to leverage those?
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
In any event, I'm glad to see my speculation about "leaving money on the table" wasn't that far off. Ironically, I think the new system, by making it more of a time investment to engage in, feels less like leaving money on the table simply because there's fewer people that are going to end up doing it. Which is good; people who enjoy crafting get to enjoy crafting.
Doubtful. But that's what happens when you read something looking for just the parts you like. All this will do is magnify the complaints of people who aren't participating and feel even more left out, while leaving the people active in crafting a smaller and even less important minority. Well that and make RMT that much more attractive.
I mean heck, if it weren't for the fact that I found the system as implemented on preview so wildly unintuitive, I might have enjoyed the new crafting system!
Res ipsa loquitor.
Edit: I will go out on a limb (well not really) and say this. The elimination of leadership 1. Will not improve the AD for Zen market 2. Will not make crafting any more fun for people that weren't using it. 3. Will make the actual exploiters, botters and RMT vendors very happy.
1 2 and 3 weren't the goals.
1.) Simply not a stated goal. Salvage changes are more relevant here, but since players still have a 100k cap, I doubt that the exchange is gonna change. 2.) It's not made more fun for people not already using it; intention is to make it more fun for the people who ARE using it. Again, I don't necessarily like the design of the new system, but I at least conceptually agree with the goal. 3.) You've offered basically no logic or explanation to this. The new system involves making a lot more player to player transactions in order to optimize your returns than the old system did, thus A.) getting more AH taxes involved and B.) leaving more of a paper trail. How, exactly, are those things botters and RMT vendors are going to be happy with?
Professions before was a "leave money on the table" thing because it was tedious but it was also kind of easy. You can now get AD through lots of other ways, so I'm pretty sure that players that weren't engaging with the RMTers before either won't with this module or, if it really meant that much to them, they're the type of player that'll just drop out of the game entirely.
What is with the whole "Alt armies", as if having multiple character, of which you bought slots with zen, and the rising each one of these with the huge number of hours it takes to bring these up to close to max level, etc. Why is this a bad thing? Some people farm seals, others run randoms for AD on multiple accounts, everyone has their play style.
Personally I have a toon for every class just to try each out with an open slot for a new class (if one ever comes). What is the point of a bank (and, again with extra zen purchased slots), shared mailbox, account wide anything if it wrong to leverage those?
Nothing's wrong with leveraging those.
They're just being changed so that running content, on an actively-played toon, is more profitable than *not* running content on a bank/invoke/profession-only toon. And I say this, again, as someone with an alt army that's made a fortune on salvage and professions alone over the years.
(And you mention "running randoms on multiple accounts" - there's no nerf to that! Just a slight nerf to the ability to hand loot from the randoms off to other less-played toons to use their Invoke bonus.)
There's still advantages to having many and varied characters, they're just not as large as they used to be because the developers are trying to focus the rewards on "active playing characters, running through game content".
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
What is with the whole "Alt armies", as if having multiple character, of which you bought slots with zen, and the rising each one of these with the huge number of hours it takes to bring these up to close to max level, etc. Why is this a bad thing? Some people farm seals, others run randoms for AD on multiple accounts, everyone has their play style.
Personally I have a toon for every class just to try each out with an open slot for a new class (if one ever comes). What is the point of a bank (and, again with extra zen purchased slots), shared mailbox, account wide anything if it wrong to leverage those?
Nothing's wrong with leveraging those.
They're just being changed so that running content, on an actively-played toon, is more profitable than *not* running content on a bank/invoke/profession-only toon. And I say this, again, as someone with an alt army that's made a fortune on salvage and professions alone over the years.
(And you mention "running randoms on multiple accounts" - there's no nerf to that! Just a slight nerf to the ability to hand loot from the randoms off to other less-played toons to use their Invoke bonus.)
There's still advantages to having many and varied characters, they're just not as large as they used to be because the developers are trying to focus the rewards on "active playing characters, running through game content".
And honestly, running randoms on multiple accounts is technically forbidden anyway: players are only supposed to have one account each.
Or did they up that to two? I know it was/is in the TOS.
(And you mention "running randoms on multiple accounts" - there's no nerf to that! Just a slight nerf to the ability to hand loot from the randoms off to other less-played toons to use their Invoke bonus.)
And honestly, running randoms on multiple accounts is technically forbidden anyway: players are only supposed to have one account each.
Or did they up that to two? I know it was/is in the TOS.
I actually looked at the TOS for this specific thing earlier this week because someone asked. I didn't see any restriction on multiple accounts, beyond the blanket "doing anything that we feel gives an unfair advantage is not allowed and we might suspend or ban you" boilerplate. If I missed it, can someone point it out?
I am currently using my Leadership and Jewelcrafting (on Xbox) to make crates of AD and Gems for the Stronghold. Will this be gone now? Is there a point to keeping all the Heroes that I have currently? Or, should I start selling them off while they are worth something.
Comments
> > @theycallmetomu said:
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> The dev team thinks that there should only be one way to play this game, their way. Any other play styles are not how they intend for the game to be played so they will try to kill it.
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> Sure, but the question is, why?
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> Why do they care?
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> I mean, there's a dozen different possible theories I could spot. I feel like the player base likes to act like it's just ego and forgo seeking any other sort of explanation. Personally I suspect it's marketing related.
I go back to the old saying of "follow the money." I'd bet a dollar to doughnuts that there was a memo (that we will never see) from the ivory tower (Perfect World in China) that said, "find ways to make people buy more Zen." Think about it every major change in the last few Mods has been targeted to reduce the amount of AD you can make (including this one). And as you know if you can't make as much AD then you can't exchange as much for Zen. Meaning to get Zen you'll have to buy it.
Don't believe me? Then why is nearly everything in the new professions character bound? Not even account bound! So now you have to spend Zen to try to get past a new RNG wall to get the new profession items sooner. And you won't even be able to make that investment back because everything you make will be character bound. So you get to do that on every character. Can you say money sink?
Why is that a bad thing? The game has to be profitable in order to hire developers and maintenance staff. I get people don't like it, but we should at least acknowledge that the game has to incentivize purchasing Zen in order to continue existing.
What is on the test server is incomplete. It is spelled out in the patch notes. The shell of the system is there. Many recipes are missing, the level transfer is not properly setup, etc.
So much of people's issues are completely unfounded. So much misinformation being spewed regarding the professions.
You guys are really going to go apeshit when they load the newest patch on test and revert your characters to before the M15 patch. Everything you have done since the last patch on Test is going to be reverted to what it was before the patch.
Oh...did you fail to see that little tidbit in the patch notes? The next patch is going to be a more complete look at M15. I would recommend folding your panties and stop wadding them up, at least until you see the next patch on Test.
"Be reasonable do it my way" is not.
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> Don't believe me? Then why is nearly everything in the new professions character bound? Not even account bound! So now you have to spend Zen to try to get past a new RNG wall to get the new profession items sooner. And you won't even be able to make that investment back because everything you make will be character bound. So you get to do that on every character. Can you say money sink?
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> I thought it was already said that the bound status was an error previously in this thread.
Thank you for pointing that out. I missed that post. Good to know.
> > @theycallmetomu said:
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> > > @theycallmetomu said:
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> >
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> >
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> > The dev team thinks that there should only be one way to play this game, their way. Any other play styles are not how they intend for the game to be played so they will try to kill it.
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> >
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> > Sure, but the question is, why?
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> >
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> > Why do they care?
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> >
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> > I mean, there's a dozen different possible theories I could spot. I feel like the player base likes to act like it's just ego and forgo seeking any other sort of explanation. Personally I suspect it's marketing related.
>
>
>
> I go back to the old saying of "follow the money." I'd bet a dollar to doughnuts that there was a memo (that we will never see) from the ivory tower (Perfect World in China) that said, "find ways to make people buy more Zen." Think about it every major change in the last few Mods has been targeted to reduce the amount of AD you can make (including this one). And as you know if you can't make as much AD then you can't exchange as much for Zen. Meaning to get Zen you'll have to buy it.
>
>
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> Don't believe me? Then why is nearly everything in the new professions character bound? Not even account bound! So now you have to spend Zen to try to get past a new RNG wall to get the new profession items sooner. And you won't even be able to make that investment back because everything you make will be character bound. So you get to do that on every character. Can you say money sink?
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> Okay, but,
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> Why is that a bad thing? The game has to be profitable in order to hire developers and maintenance staff. I get people don't like it, but we should at least acknowledge that the game has to incentivize purchasing Zen in order to continue existing.
Don't get me wrong I know and believe that the company needs to make money. But what I'm trying to get across is that if they continue to push to make a game that there is only one way to play they will drive away all the other players and thus lose money. Apparently they believe that either their way is so superior that they are willing to kill the game or that they can afford the lose of players.
Why do you think Skyrim was so popular? Do you think it would have been that popular if the only way to play was running around with a sword hitting stuff? No, it was popular because there were a hundred different ways to play. Instead they are trying to create a niche market game inside a niche market. How well do you think that is going to work?
In a future preview build you will read "Speed: +100%" and this will make the task take half the time, "Speed: -50%" will make the task take twice as long. Commission will display as "Commission: +50%" and mean that a 2 gold cost will cost 3 gold. Meanwhile a "Commission: -50%" will knock a 2 gold cost down to 1. After the update you will continue to be able to open the boxes as they are now, and exchange whatever items may be exchanged via your retainer. Thank you for your report! These kinds of bugs are still important to report. Understandably my original comments have resulted in all manner of speculation, but I would like to once again attempt to clarify: the changes to professions have not been designed to specifically reduce or increase the number of people engaged in professions.
We made changes with the goal of making the system more enjoyable for those who like to craft at a conceptual level, not those who specifically found its current implementation to be a lightweight way to generate in-game revenue. We built the system to have more gameplay; to give those who engaged more opportunities to make items that would be useful to themselves and their friends; to create more opportunities to sell and trade items; and to hopefully reduce the tedium for those who are engaged in the system.
A lot of people no doubt engaged in the old system because as some have said, to not engage would be "leaving money on the table." It's not that you particularly found the system fun or the moment to moment gameplay enjoyable. Understandably, if you engaged to not leave money on the table, and are generally not someone who enjoys crafting, these changes may actually make the whole thing seem more tedious, because you'll be engaging in bigger albeit less frequent chunks.
But changes that make professions seem "more tedious" to those who engage solely for profit was not at all the goal of the new system, but an unavoidable byproduct. A professions system which promotes trading and primarily generates wealth for those engaged by sales to other players is healthier for the economy and creates more enjoyable gameplay for those who want to craft for the fun of it. (It also creates opportunities for others to profit by selling things to crafters that they need.) A system where an upfront investment results in an infinite stream of revenue that requires no continued input from the economy encourages everyone to engage for fear of losing out.
Giving everyone who had enough interest in crafting to max out a profession, gathering at max level undercuts that greatly.
In the new system why should anyone ever go to the AH to buy mats ? They can make them themselves at a price that will likely be at least 10% less than the AH equivalent.
Time.
In any event, I'm glad to see my speculation about "leaving money on the table" wasn't that far off. Ironically, I think the new system, by making it more of a time investment to engage in, feels less like leaving money on the table simply because there's fewer people that are going to end up doing it. Which is good; people who enjoy crafting get to enjoy crafting.
I mean heck, if it weren't for the fact that I found the system as implemented on preview so wildly unintuitive, I might have enjoyed the new crafting system!
From another thread:
I think we need to bring this up in the official feedback thread, because it is going to become impossible to donate labor to the guild coffers with mod 15.
Yes I know @asterdahl said crafting crates would be coming back, but I'm assuming they're bringing them back under whatever profession they're currently under and since they're removing Leadership entirely then both crating crate of labor and AD will be gone. Which means to all effects that donating labor is no longer possible. So any guild now mazed out by mod 15 will be effectively screwed.
There might be a possibility from profession crates which will give vouchers which can either be exchanged for stuff in the new system or donated to coffers, but that will be prohibitively expensive and hence not a viable method. I'm wondering if this is an unintentional side consequence or wai.
I'm leaving it in cyan because well it's kinda feedback and I really think the player base needs and deserves an answer to this. How do we create labor to donate to guild in mod 15. And AD too because with the additional nerfs to earning of RAD donating real AD is not going to be viable either.
I also love how only crafting for profit is seen as being the target for this overhaul. Crafting for helping out a guild is being shrugged off as being unimportant, yet this has always been am integral part of the Stronghold system.
@asterdahl what is being done to alleviate this or change Strondhold donation process so that the all too great likelihood many who now craft to donate crates will stop because the new system is too unwieldy and counter intuitive, not to mention some of the stuff you can craft to donate will cease to exist by all appearances, will be mitigated? Or are you content to screw over guilds that are not yet maxed out, especially smaller guilds that doesn't have several hundred members?
Edit: Sorry I seem to have misremembered. Leadership only gives AD crates. Still I can't find a profession in game that currently gives crates of labor. Probably because in the current system you can donate the people you hire. With that being changed in mod 15 my main point still stands. How do we donate labor to the guild coffers in mod 15? The vouchers from quest and random drops is not going to be enough. Ditto for AD with Leadership being removed.
Second, nowhere have they said that these crates are being removed from the game as of yet. They have only said that crafting crates are not yet on preview. You are making an assumption, which may or may not turn out to be true. We need to wait a bit to draw any conclusion. Moving the ability to craft those crates to a different profession is just a possible as them eliminating them due to leadership removal. This is my hope, but we will see.
If so, how about providing an upgrade token for those with Leadership at say 10 or above to auto upgrade the Workshop to lvl4 immediately? Or a single level upgrade token for every 5 levels in current leadership above 4 (eg Leadership lvl 5-9 gets 1 token; Leadership lvl 10-14 gets 2 tokens, etc), so again, a lvl 20+ would go straight to a lvl4 Workshop. I suspect the number of players that have a lvl 25 Alchemy or Leatherworking, for example, but 0 or few ranks in Leadership is markedly low.
I strongly suspect you will be selling such an upgrade in the Zen store (if not, you should). It would allow for everyone who currently wants to continue to do professions with as minimal an interruption as possible to do so. Yes, a short downtime in converting old assets to new and getting your Artisan level up, but it will provide a strong trade economy very quickly, as well as relieving those who currently use it for Guild building to continue with that focus. If not Workshop upgrade tokens, then Artisan training tokens.
I understand the desire to clean slate and not create the same problems of current Leadership/Alt armies, but I think you really need to consider providing something for Leadership, let alone dropping Black Ice and the merging of Mailsmithing and Platesmithing - tokens may not relieve the pain, but they are an appreciation of the effort people have put into the game - and really, I just want to get back to enjoying it quickly, not grinding through another time-wall...
Might is not always right - the powerful sometimes forget that.
The Small BandWill try to not repeat what have been said, but, IMHO, ingredients/mats that are tied to some mods SHOULDN'T been removed!!! Like whole BI prof and mats (i know that ice itself won't be removed and i don't mind at all if items you can craft now can be bought directly, but BI prof should still be there at least for overload enchants and for empower normal version of items that can be bought in store), items like Dragon Egg (Tiamat), elemental items (fire, water...), etc. This is a must IMO and i already mention/asked for an account-wide mats a long time ago. While, initially, i thought that an actual mat bag should be made account wide so it's transparent to the user, this could be a bit difficult to implement. Here is another way, i think, much more easier: create an account wide chest in the workshop, the same way account wide BANK slots works now. Make it, lets say, 50 slots and add filter to it, so only mats can be moved there. Be it manually moving from our personal mat bag or a "Sync all" button, for example. This system should be much easier to implement and it's not new, so, most of the code could be just a copy-paste. And when crafting... well, system could check both personal bag and workshop chest for mats, use mats from personal bag first and, if needed, take more from workshop "bank".
Waiting for today's preview patch to see improvements
Jade - Cleric - Healer Main - The Freak Core - Xbone
Magnus - Fighter - Tank for queues - The Freak Core - Xbone
Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Bardholomew - Bard - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Sirona - Cleric - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
There are lots of mislabeled items on Amazon and outright misinformation, including bogus recommendations.
Ever play the claw machines? You can try for something, but might not get it.
Many stores used to have gumball machines that would spit out random stuff.
Gambling has been a part of human nature forever. When you gamble, you are not sure what you are getting. It is highly regulated because of skin games. It was easy for the house to cheat. You are correct that much of gaming provides random rewards. It is a way for the gaming companies to make more money and keep people interested in playing.
And so far as entertainment, these free to play (and the pay to play) online games are cheap compared to going to a movie, buying a blue ray, going to a concert, going out to eat, etc. Divide the money you spend by the number of hours you play and it will be a small $/hour. Much cheaper than other entertainment.
Personally I have a toon for every class just to try each out with an open slot for a new class (if one ever comes). What is the point of a bank (and, again with extra zen purchased slots), shared mailbox, account wide anything if it wrong to leverage those?
1.) Simply not a stated goal. Salvage changes are more relevant here, but since players still have a 100k cap, I doubt that the exchange is gonna change.
2.) It's not made more fun for people not already using it; intention is to make it more fun for the people who ARE using it. Again, I don't necessarily like the design of the new system, but I at least conceptually agree with the goal.
3.) You've offered basically no logic or explanation to this. The new system involves making a lot more player to player transactions in order to optimize your returns than the old system did, thus A.) getting more AH taxes involved and B.) leaving more of a paper trail. How, exactly, are those things botters and RMT vendors are going to be happy with?
Professions before was a "leave money on the table" thing because it was tedious but it was also kind of easy. You can now get AD through lots of other ways, so I'm pretty sure that players that weren't engaging with the RMTers before either won't with this module or, if it really meant that much to them, they're the type of player that'll just drop out of the game entirely.
They're just being changed so that running content, on an actively-played toon, is more profitable than *not* running content on a bank/invoke/profession-only toon. And I say this, again, as someone with an alt army that's made a fortune on salvage and professions alone over the years.
(And you mention "running randoms on multiple accounts" - there's no nerf to that! Just a slight nerf to the ability to hand loot from the randoms off to other less-played toons to use their Invoke bonus.)
There's still advantages to having many and varied characters, they're just not as large as they used to be because the developers are trying to focus the rewards on "active playing characters, running through game content".
Or did they up that to two? I know it was/is in the TOS.