("Damnation is now a viable featpath..." Stop, it's not helpful. Having 2 featpaths that both don't compete VS other HDPS Classes doesn't help any more than having 1.)
I wish I could.
The reality is the game design is flawed for SWs. Fundamentally SWs are designed to do the same amount of damage as other DPS classes, and on static targets that don't die, over time this is exactly what they do. The problem is the game doesn't have actual enemies that exhibit those traits. When new content releases that is at the edge of the current "top end", dot damage classes shine brighter, then as everyone gets the new stuff and increases their effectiveness the dot classes inevitably diminish and are relegated to second tier (and gratitude they have a buff spec that is at least desirable). The reasoning is simple, the burst damage classes always do their damage when played well, and they always shorten the duration of fights - which makes dots matter less.
It gets worse when the game runs on a system of multipliers.
In simple terms: Dots: 2x2x10=40 Burst: 2x20=40. If the Burst damage triggers at the same rate, but the target has only enough 120 health the train looks like this Dots 4 Burst 40 9 more Dots of 4 New Dot of 4 Burst 40, target is dead.
It gets worse if the Burst damage can happen faster than the Dots can run 10 times, even if the Dots can still be triggered at the same rate and stack their damage.
Yet the SW is constantly pushed towards dots.
So no amount of (reasonable) buffs to dots is ever going to fix this problem.
The Devs have to fundamentally change the design approach of a DPS class away from dots. Dots are fine on a Buff class (while the dot lasts the buff lasts for eg), and if they are going to say SW is a Buff class, that's fine, make it one. But if that is the goal then the Damnation and Fury paths still need a major rework, and they need to work in a way that doesn't just create the 2DC problem with SWs.
So TL:DR, the SW didn't get a buff, because that isn't possible under the design parameters the Devs have imposed on the class.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I took a picture from the run with strahd, where you know, the video was cut after the kit was used. I am not saying buffs are ok, but if you want to show a run where you "blame buffs" at least show something that is even remotely impressive and related to buffs, because I have seen and done better and using an item that is itself a 200% buff and then blaming supports is misleading to say the least.
The meaning of the video in the complexity of the dungeons, in which in the top dungeon the boss dies with 1 hit, receiving damage much higher than his HP.
The point is that you don't judge the balance of the classes around an item which counts as a buff party by itself. The Sunsword falls into the same category. Are buffs too strong? Yes, but so is that item. It starts dealing damage at a point 10x higher then other skills in the game and at the end of the day does it matter if you have 1 hit that boss? You still need to wait 5 minutes for dialogue, just like everyone else does.
I made a list of the coefficients of the Sunswords powers at the start of mod 14, for those that actually cared to read. Here they are:
Hey folks! Please keep the tones civil and the conversation away from personal attacks/commentary. If threads become derailed to the point where we are having to edit/remove more than what's posted, we will close the feedback thread. This isn't something we want to do since feedback threads are valuable, but only when they remain constructive.
Just like was done on the Oathbound Paladins. Would like to see increased base damage of our powers by roughly 14% ,along with our animation times being more smooth. So we will likely see a boost even higher than this. * All damage increased by 14%.
> @nitocris83 said: > Hey folks! Please keep the tones civil and the conversation away from personal attacks/commentary. If threads become derailed to the point where we are having to edit/remove more than what's posted, we will close the feedback thread. This isn't something we want to do since feedback threads are valuable, but only when they remain constructive.
@nitocris83 closing the thread would make no difference because posting feedback has been futile anyway, no developer has bothered replying let alone addressing any of the several issues with mod 15 changes that have been reported here.
After quite a bit of feedback, all that was done was to patch a bug with a glyph item, that's it, meanwhile other classes, already superior to SW as damage dealers, are getting developer responses and actions over there so it is no surprise SW community is upset at being let down this badly by you guys.
Hey folks! Please keep the tones civil and the conversation away from personal attacks/commentary. If threads become derailed to the point where we are having to edit/remove more than what's posted, we will close the feedback thread. This isn't something we want to do since feedback threads are valuable, but only when they remain constructive.
Please consider the following constructive feedback on the state of your feedback and communication process:
Since you do this for a living, the less than civil responses to your "keep it civil" admonishment are likely no surprise, but you have a point.
Or at least you would have a point if there was any indication that you are using the provided feedback. Feedback after all is meant to be a loop. We provide feedback, Cryptic provides feedback on the feedback, we provide feedback on the feedback on the feedback, Cryptic provides feedback on our feedback on the feedback on out initial feedback.. etc. ad infinitum, or until we reach a happy medium.
A space for people to report issue after issue with no indication that anything is happening is not a useful part of a feedback process. If you create a void, there should be no surprise if people scream into it.
I understand the frustration of having to handhold a community, keeping them pacified by showing a modicum of interest even if there are hundreds if not thousands of others screaming for attention at the same time. Fact seems to be that the SW part of your community is feeling neglected and has been feeling that way for a while. If actually engaging with the feedback provided here is not an option for whatever reason, at the very least some positive attention though naught but communication could go a long way...
6
percemerMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 1,048Arc User
Read the 1000 AD for 50 voninblod thread and you will see that if you do get a dev response all it does is show how little they understand the reality of actually playing the game.
To be honest, I hadn't noticed this thread, but French players contacted me to report this issue/situation, which then enabled me to contact Cryptic and explain the situation to them.
First, thank you for this summary. In general, thank you to all of you for your feedbacks. I am sure the dev team is reading all feedbacks on class changes threads, but please also understand us, it's much more difficult to manage when there are a lot of off-topic comments, non-constructive comments, and even some disrespectful/insulting comments. By the way, I think this is a very good idea to make a summary of constructive feedbacks to help us. The community team will ensure that it will be forwarded to the dev team.
As you have seen, the moderation team already moderated this thread. I also removed the three previous comments discussing about moderation, but as you asked, I am republishing the summary from @bellkazi
1) Soul Investiture - once you get the 5 stacks, they simply cannot be refreshed so you lose the buff after 20 seconds. Pls fix.
2) Soul Puppet. Soul puppet not being adapeted to your buffed critchance, the puppet needs to die infight to get actual stats. Can you make stats scale/refresh with actual stats every 10 seconds?
3) You can get that soul puppet cooldown reduced back to 10 seconds, the nerfed one (15 secs) is counterproductive to the build?
4) Soul Puppet is moving very slowly and is very slow in response (for instance, time to attack, time to move after the opponent - it will unviable it for PvE cause its too slow).
5) When Soul Puppet actually attacks it does not build the stacks of Soul Investiture, nor another stack appears when the curse is lifted but the soul puppet is healed as if another is to appear. This is probably intended behaviour but it still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't build soul investiture stacks whence another soul puppet is supposed to appear.
6) Vampiric Embrace (is so awsome that even templocks doesn't use it).
7) Hadar grasp only ticks 10 times now, down from 14. You effectivelly nerfed HG damage significantly by reducing the amoung ticks it does when curse consuming, there's no reason to do that to SW, the weakest damage dealer.
8) We are DDs, give us this role back
9) If you cast Immolation Spirits when an other Immolation Spirits is about to fade, both disappear and you end up casting your daily for nothing. Pls fix.
10) Pls fix Combat Advantage Soul Puppet.
11) Pls fix Combat Advantage Immolation Spirits.
12) Soul Puppet dont scale with buff Soul Sight Crystal. Pls fix.
13) Gastly Commander: Pls, increase the damage given from it to 25%, up from 15%.
14) Playing as warlock or any other non-gwf-gf class haven't sense in this game, they made all for them for years and they always nerfs a class when can compete with gwf as main dps class. They made Tenser's disk (with a buff for CON-STR-DEX (GWF's main ability scores) Orcus set (CON-STR) they proc a lot of buffs better than SW, for mod 14 they have Prominence weapon enchantment (that only works great on GWF)
15) The changes to ACC are no changes, it stays on the same level.
16) Hey, as you probably have noticed that lesser curse is lackluster and thus tried to buff it. I've picked full Scournful Curse and used rank 4 All Consuming Curse and I got to tell you that even if the +x% modifiers do seem big the outcome is small, please do increase instead Lesser Curse base damage by, 4x-6x times, then these features would be considered worthy. The average tick of Lesser Curse is about 8k damage max this is still really low.
17)What is "Killing" about that encounter Killing flame, when it feels more like "Trolling Flame" ? please fix it asap
18) Make Temptation consistent and competitive (legit "Healer"/"Support").
19) Feat: Darkness: Make it shared.
20) Passive: Warding Curse: Make it shared.
21) Bugs like puppet stay outside the door (we know it since ever) are still an issue.
22) No self buff. Fury could use a flat damage buffs. Currently Damnation is nearly good as Fury. Fury should be best DPS tree.
23) Fury should has a feat that applies Warlock's Curse as an AoE like 15 ft around the target. GWF has AoE marks...
24) Warlock Curse - should be unavoidable. The reason for this is in PvP it takes a good while to actually curse the target since when target dodge, sprint, shadowslip the curse does not apply.
28) The debuff bug still works when playing damnation.
29) The weapon enchantments must have better tick for weapon damage. What are there for so many different enchantments? For the GWFs?
31) Our debuffs are 10%+25%+15% in PVE, but none of those do work in PVP that good (DT/PoP/FoE)
32) Orcus set,War Boar,Air Archon,Fire Archon does not buff Immolation Spirits.
33) Earth Archon and Air Archon does not buff Soul Puppet.
37) If a SW runs together with a OP he should profit from the buffs that the OP provides as much as a GWF does. If my SW uses a specific enchantment it should give the same benefit as the GWF has. And if this is not the case there must be a chance that the SW can compensate such differences by other well known means. Same knowledge, same IL and same skill --> same DPS.
38) They made it as intended, they made Bloody buff to proc better on GWF and GF, classes like HR or CW can't proc it at all, devs only create this lack of balance to benefit some classes and we, the "other classes" to be a secondary role in this game, feeling the frustration to get kicked or not wanted as dps because we're better as support.
39) Get rid of the KF buff mechanic and make it always deal its full damage.
40) Rework Dark Prayers useless class feature that nobody uses to : "Your single target powers deal 5% more damage as the target's health diminishes. (+5%/+5%/+50% more damage to Lesser Curse)
41)Make Soul Puppet inherit the SW's crit severity.
42) Make Soul desecration spawn a Soul puppet when SW applies Warlock's curse instead of when it removes it. This way, we could get the first stacks a little bit faster.
44) HG is nerfed and sparks are slower to build
45) Tooltip says: Murderous Flames 25% but it's a lie. Murderous Flames 30%.
46) Harrowstorm: Activation time slightly reduced -> from no interest any more since 5 years, player litteraly gave up to mention this encounter
47) Soul Scorch - the Tab/Scorch-combo still is an annoyance
48) Blades of Vanquished Armies,Flames of Phlegethos,Tyrannical Curse - still too slow.
51) problem I see is this, we've been doing BALANCED damage based on the effectiveness bug, now the effectiveness bug is no more, and the damage will be capped on 300% but we got no compensation in damage for this changes, means all in all we, Scourge Warlocks of all builds we be doing far less damage than before mod 15.
52) During all the fixes and lose of DPS I always held out hope that this would one day get fixed. Of late however I have come to realize that "Hope" is a four letter word. And of the four letter words it is the least accurate to describe this class.
53) The class mechanic of SW "lesser curse" has not been modified while it deserves a real utility/buff. It is still a mediocre % in ACT log (like 1%). Suggestion: possibility of having an effect of damage buff when curses stacks. It would give an aim at this class mechanic and should help SW dps that is already not the greatest of the game ; I think it is the easy answer to the lack of self-buff of our class.
55)as Damnation capstone buffs encounter powers only, imo, damage per stack should go from current 10% to 15% or 20%
I hope we won't have to moderate anymore, we don't want to close the thread. Thank you for your understanding!
Increase in base damage by 20% on a segment from 100% to 25% drops to 0 (average value - 10%). On the 25% -0% hp segment, the difference between the M14 flame and the flame on the test server is not. Increasing 3/4 damage by 10% results in a total damage change of 7.5%. Activation time reduced.
2. Hadar's Grasp nerf of 8.3%.
On the test server, Hadar's Grasp deals damage 10 times (13 on live). Hadar’s Grasp M14 Damage=100 13*100=1300 On the test server Damage=120 10*120=1200 1200<1300 1300/1200=8.3% Activation time increased. In one goal, grasp + flame - the nerf of one minimizes increase from the second
3. Soul Scorch now deals fire damage and works with the Murderous Flames (which gives 30% instead of 25%)
It works only on the first blow (half damage), and this is already 15%. Moreover, a reduced number of ticks of the Grasp leads to a decrease in the rate of generation of sparks, and no increase in damage is observed in practice, because burning damages more, but is not used as often.
4. All-consuming Curse
On the test server and on the live result is the same.
5. Stacks of Soul Desecration are recruited and not updated after 5 stacks have been collected. The theoretical 50% to damage from combat powers in practice are reduced to the constant recruitment and loss of stacks and we get 25% to combat powers damage in 1 target.
6. Combat advantage Warlock does not work on the Soul Puppet. She has her own combat advantage. 15%.
7. The combat advantage of the Warlock does not work on Immolation Spirits. They also have their combat advantage - 15%
8. Soul Sight Crystal does not work on a Soul Puppet.
9. Earth Archon and Air Archon does not buff Soul Puppet.
10. Orcus set, War Boar, Air Archon, Fire Archon does not buff Immolation Spirits.
Another week and nothing new about this thread. We're trolled by the devs, since mod 10 Scourge Warlock is waiting for a rework to make our class viable as DPS.
0
rickcase276Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,404Arc User
Read over in the CW thread, they have basically said that what is on preview now for class balance is what we are going to get for Mod15, barring any major bugs that need to be fixed. There is no time now to get anything major to be changed. Best to hope that these things in the thread will be addressed in Mod16 or Mod17.
The reality is the game design is flawed for SWs. Fundamentally SWs are designed to do the same amount of damage as other DPS classes, and on static targets that don't die, over time this is exactly what they do. The problem is the game doesn't have actual enemies that exhibit those traits. When new content releases that is at the edge of the current "top end", dot damage classes shine brighter, then as everyone gets the new stuff and increases their effectiveness the dot classes inevitably diminish and are relegated to second tier (and gratitude they have a buff spec that is at least desirable). The reasoning is simple, the burst damage classes always do their damage when played well, and they always shorten the duration of fights - which makes dots matter less.
Not to be a downer here (Sorry Obsidian ) but the reality of what you are saying is even worse than this; Bursty DPS classes have the HUGE advantage of being able to synch up their big hits with buffs from other party members. So while your DoT is getting the benefit from the DC's Anointed Army for say, half of the ticks, the GWF's IBS gets the benefit of the DC's buff for all of the damage from that power. Then to make things even worse, as the "Bursty" classes reach ever higher item levels (and higher and higher recovery, combined with buffs like hastening light and aura of wisdom) their bursts get more and more frequent, where as none of these affect the rate at which enemies take damage from a warlock's DoT power.
The only reasonable solution for this I think is to front load a large % of a warlock's damage, or to simply do away with DoTs entirely for most powers .... but this is a major rework of SW powers that I think would have to wait for Mod 16.
It's getting to close to launch for much to be changed on the SW. However I will give my 2 cents for what it is worth.
From what I can tell the overall mechanic for SW is intended to be damage over time. It has been stated by many before so I won't go into detail on why matching damage over time abilities to a burst DPS in a fight that last a minute or longer is flawed. However if the intention is to remain a DoT style DPS that can shine in sustained fights, that damage would actually need to become much higher during those fights that last for longer then a few seconds.
This is a pure assumption, but lets stick to the theme of DoT damage. I personally like to be the one doing the most damage on boss fights and would rather the balance was actually to bring two or three DPS in every group (this includes non random que groups). This way you could bring a DPS that excels at clearing trash in a dungeon, and a DPS that excels at killing the boss of any given area. I think the GWF have held the title of burst damage for some time now and honestly I think they should keep it. Most I have spoken to enjoy their class and that means changing them up would just create a different set of upset players.
The changes I feel could really help the SW without changing the overall theme they currently have.
1.) Allow Creeping Death to crit. * This would create a good jump in damage that still needs a bit of time to build. The entire mechanic of the capstone follows the theme of DoT damage. So if it was able to crit it would scale extremely well with gear and the overall progression when getting the best gear you can get. Note that if it was literally just a flipped switch, SW would likely start to do more damage then most burst classes over fight duration's of about 40 seconds or so. This alone would go a long way to make some parties consider taking an SW in addition to a burst DPS. Less time fighting boss encounters = shorter runs. It will not however do anything for our complete lack of trash clearing skills.
2.) Provide some damage increase for lesser curse. * This is primarily for clearing trash. Simply adding it to the Killing Curse Feat so that all of our curses when trying to play as a primary DPS would be increased. Again without any additional changes to the mechanic for SW, this will not bring us above or even match the burst damage of other classes (which I have assumed here is actually the intention of the Dev team).
3.) Fix the bugs in the changes to the Damnation line that have been mention on numerous occasions throughout this thread. * Not much explanation needed here. It has been covered before. It would seem that the intent was to give a less damaging alternative to Fury. Sacrificing some damage potential for defense. The largest of them being Soul Investiture dropping off after the time expires instead of refreshing. It already takes a fair amount of time to build and the huge fluctuation in damage when it falls off seems harsh. Even if fixed it would not match the damage of Fury (which it should not)
4.) Allow Flames of Empowerment to to trigger from encounter powers. * I can't stress this enough. This would provide a huge debate on what the ideal setup would be. Options are a great thing and you would start to see a shift and a change in the setup of both casual and hard core players. There would then be multiple options for getting the most our your dps. Would you still use No Pity, No Mercy with Murderous Flames? or should you try out Gatekeeper's Empowerment with with Flames of Empowerment (you already shortened the activation Time for Gates of Hell). Which one is going to yield more DPS? Solid debate depending on current gear and group setup. Recast would come into play very heavily so the options would be a nice shift.
5.) Modify Soulbinder to have more utility or heals for the party * This is also a big one. Currently there is no real reason to play a Soulbinder in groups outside of a few specific exceptions. In all honestly most use it for leveling for added defense and regenerative heals. This is a great way to provide the straight heals that many have been asking for. I wouldn't mind seeing it swapped for healer based powers all together (though I may get some push back on that I'm not sure). It can't do anywhere near the damage output, it has less group buffs and the only survival buffs it has are self buffs. Allowing heals that can be cast with soul sparks, giving some love to team members when those soul sparks start flowing or even as they get spent (making it worth while to spend them and not just horde them up for the damage buffs). I have never honestly tried playing Soulbinder outside of running group content solo just to see if I could do it... And I know I am not alone in that.
At any rate. I hope this gets read and at the very least gets a little thought from the Dev team.
Continued/repeated feedback on your process.. as constructive as I can manage it:
IF your feedback process lacks the resources to actually acknowledge player reactions maybe you should say so up front?
IF your development process lacks the resources to respond to bugs and issues reported for more than about 2.5 classes, maybe you should not try to change more than 2.5 classes in a cycle?
Know your limits, communicate them and live them.
You made a significant amount of changes to the SW class, but from all visible evidence reserved inadequate resources do deal with any issues that would come up related to those changes. Several have been reported, none have been acknowledged or refuted, let alone fixed.
And sure, you may claim this response is off topic, but ask yourself. If you set up a feedback process for a development process, centering around a forum thread, why then would both that feedback process and the development process not be subject to feedback?
so again:
If you are unable to commit resources to your side of a feedback loop to maintain even the most minimal level of communication, just tell us up front. Managing expectations matters (maybe also do not let people assure a community they will be "pleasantly surprised", a surefire recipe for disappointment)
And if you cannot commit development resources to shepherding a set of changes to release, consider smaller sets of changes for the future. Do not commit to something if you cannot finish it right!
p.s. the saddest part is, that there is a official reaction in the TR thread that speaks to all of this in an informed and reasonable matter. But I do NOT play a TR. If there is a better illustration of miscommunication, I have not found it yet.. Communicate better!!!
If I spend hours of gameplay on a preview server to give feedback in an official threat and get nothing back (even no comment like: we take it on a "to-do list in mod 16") there is a huge gap between the work done on developers side and player side. I think about deleting most of my comments, testings and results in this threat. Communication same as feedback are missing, posts got deleted being "on topic" . As said in the post above, if you don´t have any resources to even communicate a minimum of needed informations, than you should go smaller steps in a hole.
If I find myself in a game, having no content to enjoy, running same meta all over in a pretty unbalanced state of classes (Buff>>rest), missing complete roles like "heal", "controler" and "striker" to some degree, witnessing major bugs carried from mod to mod over years... what to do?
Another mod playing not end game content because we're stucked to play as cheerleaders for burst damage dpsers. I can't enjoy to play a support role 100% of my time, when they sold me the class as DPS: No subtlety here-you want to deal DAMAGE, is what you read when create a Scourge Warlock. Please tell us that you don't want to rework dps SW, please tell us the truth about a game with only two classes as main damage dealers, tell us if we're going to have a TRUE rework for dps. This game has a lack of options for end game, not only dungeons, you're forced to play something to be part of the meta. Sometimes i heard, hey! make your own group! We dps SW can't get a group because people leaves when they know that a Scourge Warlock is the dps. My character has two years old, and almost a year hearing people telling me jokes about dps SW. I really enjoy the class, i like the diverstity about playing dps or support, but we are limited, forced to play support, because you devs broke our dps role. Please fix it. Thanks.
Hello developers, Could you change the curse buff from 20 to 40? This will solve all our problems with damage, about which we have been writing for 2 years and will not take much of your time. 1 value in the code. Please!
Not to be a downer here (Sorry Obsidian ) but the reality of what you are saying is even worse than this; Bursty DPS classes have the HUGE advantage of being able to synch up their big hits with buffs from other party members. So while your DoT is getting the benefit from the DC's Anointed Army for say, half of the ticks, the GWF's IBS gets the benefit of the DC's buff for all of the damage from that power. Then to make things even worse, as the "Bursty" classes reach ever higher item levels (and higher and higher recovery, combined with buffs like hastening light and aura of wisdom) their bursts get more and more frequent, where as none of these affect the rate at which enemies take damage from a warlock's DoT power.
The only reasonable solution for this I think is to front load a large % of a warlock's damage, or to simply do away with DoTs entirely for most powers .... but this is a major rework of SW powers that I think would have to wait for Mod 16.
Yup, totally. I wasn't really suggesting it happen for this mod, but its the reality of the problems that the SW faces if the Devs intend it to remain as a DPS class. It basically cannot compete using small dots with large bursts. There are some very quick fixes that can be done with this, Hadar's Grasp, Killing Flames, Vampiric Embrace, Warlock's Bargain and Firey Bolt can all have a base damage boost. At least then on single target the SW would have some options for burst damage.
Then in later mods the function of things like Dreadtheft and Lesser Curse can be examined for improvement to allow for their dot nature.
In short, its not that we don't have burst damage options, its that those options are not on par with other single target dps because the design concept is that the gap will be covered by the dots - but that doesn't work in reality.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Hello developers, Could you change the curse buff from 20 to 40? This will solve all our problems with damage, about which we have been writing for 2 years and will not take much of your time. 1 value in the code. Please!
Warlock's Curse isn't a buff; it's a debuff. Player damage buffs are so much better than enemy damage-taken debuffs, and that's one of the fundamental issues with SW.
Also remember that, for Fury builds, WC is already a 30% debuff. Adding 10% more (diminishing) debuff value won't do much of anything.
It seems that Cryptic has some awareness of this judging by the direction the Mod 15 changes are taking (mainly the idea behind the change to the Damnation capstone), but they are so painfully conservative in adjusting SW and so slow to correct obvious issues (*cough* aforementioned capstone buff falling off *cough*) that it's impossible to say what the process is there.
Warlock's Curse isn't a buff; it's a debuff. Player damage buffs are so much better than enemy damage-taken debuffs, and that's one of the fundamental issues with SW.
To put things simply, you're wrong. A simple test with ACT will reveal that WC does nothing to affect effectiveness, which tells you that WC is a buff, not a debuff. If you can't run ACT, look at your combat log, and calculate effectiveness manually. Please do not provide feedback on SW mechanics if you do not know how SW mechanics work.
Warlock's Curse isn't a buff; it's a debuff. Player damage buffs are so much better than enemy damage-taken debuffs, and that's one of the fundamental issues with SW.
To put things simply, you're wrong. A simple test with ACT will reveal that WC does nothing to affect effectiveness, which tells you that WC is a buff, not a debuff. If you can't run ACT, look at your combat log, and calculate effectiveness manually. Please do not provide feedback on SW mechanics if you do not know how SW mechanics work.
I stand corrected. I should know better than to take a tooltip description literally in this game.
However, the snark is unnecessary; you can extend me the courtesy of some benefit of the doubt that I made a simple mistake/oversight and generally do know what I am talking about otherwise.
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited October 2018
Kinda disheartening to come back, and the SW's mediocre damage output has still not been acknowledged by the devs. Not much can be done to make up for the owlbear nerf. Slightly speeding up some attacks and making them not interruptible doesn't contribute to better damage.
Hell, not even the at-wills got any buffs. That was a while back, other classes, even the DC got buffs to their at-wills.
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited October 2018
What's the point of allowing the puppet to crit, but making it only 50% severity? Vorpal, dread don't affect it. Highly doubt fey affects it. Just leaves some kind of utility, which probably won't help it much either.
Why did CW get a huge buff to disintegrate and no bone can be tossed at this class? I don't get it. Nothing really synergizes well for this class.
I guess we mostly got speed up animations and an update to the damnation tree to make us more viable as a whole. We do decent damage atm just templocks are a more suitable play style for the current meta. Mof isn't all that great in comparison so I can understand upping their damage 1st. Although, I do hope that we get more adjustments to our powers and feats come mod 16.
Comments
The reality is the game design is flawed for SWs. Fundamentally SWs are designed to do the same amount of damage as other DPS classes, and on static targets that don't die, over time this is exactly what they do. The problem is the game doesn't have actual enemies that exhibit those traits. When new content releases that is at the edge of the current "top end", dot damage classes shine brighter, then as everyone gets the new stuff and increases their effectiveness the dot classes inevitably diminish and are relegated to second tier (and gratitude they have a buff spec that is at least desirable). The reasoning is simple, the burst damage classes always do their damage when played well, and they always shorten the duration of fights - which makes dots matter less.
It gets worse when the game runs on a system of multipliers.
In simple terms:
Dots: 2x2x10=40
Burst: 2x20=40.
If the Burst damage triggers at the same rate, but the target has only enough 120 health the train looks like this
Dots 4
Burst 40
9 more Dots of 4
New Dot of 4
Burst 40, target is dead.
It gets worse if the Burst damage can happen faster than the Dots can run 10 times, even if the Dots can still be triggered at the same rate and stack their damage.
Yet the SW is constantly pushed towards dots.
So no amount of (reasonable) buffs to dots is ever going to fix this problem.
The Devs have to fundamentally change the design approach of a DPS class away from dots. Dots are fine on a Buff class (while the dot lasts the buff lasts for eg), and if they are going to say SW is a Buff class, that's fine, make it one. But if that is the goal then the Damnation and Fury paths still need a major rework, and they need to work in a way that doesn't just create the 2DC problem with SWs.
So TL:DR, the SW didn't get a buff, because that isn't possible under the design parameters the Devs have imposed on the class.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I made a list of the coefficients of the Sunswords powers at the start of mod 14, for those that actually cared to read. Here they are:
Heliostorm 1st hit: 22.2
Heliostorm 2nd hit: 44.4
Heliostorm 3rd hit: 66.6
Heliostorm 4th hit: 88.8
Heliostorm 5th hit: 111
Heliostorm 6th hit: 132.2
Coronal Slash 1st hit: 27.75
Coronal Slash 3rd hit: 55.5
Dawnstrike: 155.4
In comparison, look at these powers:
Indomitable Battle Strike: 3.51
Griffon's Wrath: 3.744
And then you are surprised when it 1 hits the boss when it was obviously designed to do more then 10x anything else anyhow?
* All damage increased by 14%.
> Hey folks! Please keep the tones civil and the conversation away from personal attacks/commentary. If threads become derailed to the point where we are having to edit/remove more than what's posted, we will close the feedback thread. This isn't something we want to do since feedback threads are valuable, but only when they remain constructive.
@nitocris83 closing the thread would make no difference because posting feedback has been futile anyway, no developer has bothered replying let alone addressing any of the several issues with mod 15 changes that have been reported here.
After quite a bit of feedback, all that was done was to patch a bug with a glyph item, that's it, meanwhile other classes, already superior to SW as damage dealers, are getting developer responses and actions over there so it is no surprise SW community is upset at being let down this badly by you guys.
Since you do this for a living, the less than civil responses to your "keep it civil" admonishment are likely no surprise, but you have a point.
Or at least you would have a point if there was any indication that you are using the provided feedback. Feedback after all is meant to be a loop. We provide feedback, Cryptic provides feedback on the feedback, we provide feedback on the feedback on the feedback, Cryptic provides feedback on our feedback on the feedback on out initial feedback.. etc. ad infinitum, or until we reach a happy medium.
A space for people to report issue after issue with no indication that anything is happening is not a useful part of a feedback process. If you create a void, there should be no surprise if people scream into it.
I understand the frustration of having to handhold a community, keeping them pacified by showing a modicum of interest even if there are hundreds if not thousands of others screaming for attention at the same time. Fact seems to be that the SW part of your community is feeling neglected and has been feeling that way for a while. If actually engaging with the feedback provided here is not an option for whatever reason, at the very least some positive attention though naught but communication could go a long way...
I am sure the dev team is reading all feedbacks on class changes threads, but please also understand us, it's much more difficult to manage when there are a lot of off-topic comments, non-constructive comments, and even some disrespectful/insulting comments.
By the way, I think this is a very good idea to make a summary of constructive feedbacks to help us. The community team will ensure that it will be forwarded to the dev team.
Regards,
EU Community Manager @ Gearbox Publishing
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@nitocris83 answered here: Feedback on Feedback Thread Comments
As you have seen, the moderation team already moderated this thread. I also removed the three previous comments discussing about moderation, but as you asked, I am republishing the summary from @bellkazi I hope we won't have to moderate anymore, we don't want to close the thread. Thank you for your understanding!
Regards,
EU Community Manager @ Gearbox Publishing
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Neverwinter: Discord - Facebook - Twitter - YouTube - Customer Support - Terms of Service
Increase in base damage by 20% on a segment from 100% to 25% drops to 0 (average value - 10%). On the 25% -0% hp segment, the difference between the M14 flame and the flame on the test server is not. Increasing 3/4 damage by 10% results in a total damage change of 7.5%.
Activation time reduced.
2. Hadar's Grasp nerf of 8.3%.
On the test server, Hadar's Grasp deals damage 10 times (13 on live).
Hadar’s Grasp M14
Damage=100
13*100=1300
On the test server
Damage=120
10*120=1200
1200<1300
1300/1200=8.3%
Activation time increased.
In one goal, grasp + flame - the nerf of one minimizes increase from the second
3. Soul Scorch now deals fire damage and works with the Murderous Flames (which gives 30% instead of 25%)
It works only on the first blow (half damage), and this is already 15%. Moreover, a reduced number of ticks of the Grasp leads to a decrease in the rate of generation of sparks, and no increase in damage is observed in practice, because burning damages more, but is not used as often.
4. All-consuming Curse
On the test server and on the live result is the same.
5. Stacks of Soul Desecration are recruited and not updated after 5 stacks have been collected. The theoretical 50% to damage from combat powers in practice are reduced to the constant recruitment and loss of stacks and we get 25% to combat powers damage in 1 target.
6. Combat advantage Warlock does not work on the Soul Puppet. She has her own combat advantage. 15%.
7. The combat advantage of the Warlock does not work on Immolation Spirits. They also have their combat advantage - 15%
8. Soul Sight Crystal does not work on a Soul Puppet.
9. Earth Archon and Air Archon does not buff Soul Puppet.
10. Orcus set, War Boar, Air Archon, Fire Archon does not buff Immolation Spirits.
The only reasonable solution for this I think is to front load a large % of a warlock's damage, or to simply do away with DoTs entirely for most powers .... but this is a major rework of SW powers that I think would have to wait for Mod 16.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
From what I can tell the overall mechanic for SW is intended to be damage over time. It has been stated by many before so I won't go into detail on why matching damage over time abilities to a burst DPS in a fight that last a minute or longer is flawed. However if the intention is to remain a DoT style DPS that can shine in sustained fights, that damage would actually need to become much higher during those fights that last for longer then a few seconds.
This is a pure assumption, but lets stick to the theme of DoT damage. I personally like to be the one doing the most damage on boss fights and would rather the balance was actually to bring two or three DPS in every group (this includes non random que groups). This way you could bring a DPS that excels at clearing trash in a dungeon, and a DPS that excels at killing the boss of any given area. I think the GWF have held the title of burst damage for some time now and honestly I think they should keep it. Most I have spoken to enjoy their class and that means changing them up would just create a different set of upset players.
The changes I feel could really help the SW without changing the overall theme they currently have.
1.) Allow Creeping Death to crit.
* This would create a good jump in damage that still needs a bit of time to build. The entire mechanic of the capstone follows the theme of DoT damage. So if it was able to crit it would scale extremely well with gear and the overall progression when getting the best gear you can get. Note that if it was literally just a flipped switch, SW would likely start to do more damage then most burst classes over fight duration's of about 40 seconds or so. This alone would go a long way to make some parties consider taking an SW in addition to a burst DPS. Less time fighting boss encounters = shorter runs. It will not however do anything for our complete lack of trash clearing skills.
2.) Provide some damage increase for lesser curse.
* This is primarily for clearing trash. Simply adding it to the Killing Curse Feat so that all of our curses when trying to play as a primary DPS would be increased. Again without any additional changes to the mechanic for SW, this will not bring us above or even match the burst damage of other classes (which I have assumed here is actually the intention of the Dev team).
3.) Fix the bugs in the changes to the Damnation line that have been mention on numerous occasions throughout this thread.
* Not much explanation needed here. It has been covered before. It would seem that the intent was to give a less damaging alternative to Fury. Sacrificing some damage potential for defense. The largest of them being Soul Investiture dropping off after the time expires instead of refreshing. It already takes a fair amount of time to build and the huge fluctuation in damage when it falls off seems harsh. Even if fixed it would not match the damage of Fury (which it should not)
4.) Allow Flames of Empowerment to to trigger from encounter powers.
* I can't stress this enough. This would provide a huge debate on what the ideal setup would be. Options are a great thing and you would start to see a shift and a change in the setup of both casual and hard core players. There would then be multiple options for getting the most our your dps. Would you still use No Pity, No Mercy with Murderous Flames? or should you try out Gatekeeper's Empowerment with with Flames of Empowerment (you already shortened the activation Time for Gates of Hell). Which one is going to yield more DPS? Solid debate depending on current gear and group setup. Recast would come into play very heavily so the options would be a nice shift.
5.) Modify Soulbinder to have more utility or heals for the party
* This is also a big one. Currently there is no real reason to play a Soulbinder in groups outside of a few specific exceptions. In all honestly most use it for leveling for added defense and regenerative heals. This is a great way to provide the straight heals that many have been asking for. I wouldn't mind seeing it swapped for healer based powers all together (though I may get some push back on that I'm not sure). It can't do anywhere near the damage output, it has less group buffs and the only survival buffs it has are self buffs. Allowing heals that can be cast with soul sparks, giving some love to team members when those soul sparks start flowing or even as they get spent (making it worth while to spend them and not just horde them up for the damage buffs). I have never honestly tried playing Soulbinder outside of running group content solo just to see if I could do it... And I know I am not alone in that.
At any rate. I hope this gets read and at the very least gets a little thought from the Dev team.
Thanks for reading.
IF your feedback process lacks the resources to actually acknowledge player reactions maybe you should say so up front?
IF your development process lacks the resources to respond to bugs and issues reported for more than about 2.5 classes, maybe you should not try to change more than 2.5 classes in a cycle?
Know your limits, communicate them and live them.
You made a significant amount of changes to the SW class, but from all visible evidence reserved inadequate resources do deal with any issues that would come up related to those changes. Several have been reported, none have been acknowledged or refuted, let alone fixed.
And sure, you may claim this response is off topic, but ask yourself. If you set up a feedback process for a development process, centering around a forum thread, why then would both that feedback process and the development process not be subject to feedback?
so again:
If you are unable to commit resources to your side of a feedback loop to maintain even the most minimal level of communication, just tell us up front. Managing expectations matters (maybe also do not let people assure a community they will be "pleasantly surprised", a surefire recipe for disappointment)
And if you cannot commit development resources to shepherding a set of changes to release, consider smaller sets of changes for the future. Do not commit to something if you cannot finish it right!
p.s. the saddest part is, that there is a official reaction in the TR thread that speaks to all of this in an informed and reasonable matter. But I do NOT play a TR. If there is a better illustration of miscommunication, I have not found it yet.. Communicate better!!!
I think about deleting most of my comments, testings and results in this threat. Communication same as feedback are missing, posts got deleted being "on topic" .
As said in the post above, if you don´t have any resources to even communicate a minimum of needed informations, than you should go smaller steps in a hole.
If I find myself in a game, having no content to enjoy, running same meta all over in a pretty unbalanced state of classes (Buff>>rest), missing complete roles like "heal", "controler" and "striker" to some degree, witnessing major bugs carried from mod to mod over years... what to do?
Hello developers,
Could you change the curse buff from 20 to 40?
This will solve all our problems with damage, about which we have been writing for 2 years and will not take much of your time. 1 value in the code.
Please!
Then in later mods the function of things like Dreadtheft and Lesser Curse can be examined for improvement to allow for their dot nature.
In short, its not that we don't have burst damage options, its that those options are not on par with other single target dps because the design concept is that the gap will be covered by the dots - but that doesn't work in reality.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Warlock's Curse isn't a buff; it's a debuff. Player damage buffs are so much better than enemy damage-taken debuffs, and that's one of the fundamental issues with SW.
Also remember that, for Fury builds, WC is already a 30% debuff. Adding 10% more (diminishing) debuff value won't do much of anything.
It seems that Cryptic has some awareness of this judging by the direction the Mod 15 changes are taking (mainly the idea behind the change to the Damnation capstone), but they are so painfully conservative in adjusting SW and so slow to correct obvious issues (*cough* aforementioned capstone buff falling off *cough*) that it's impossible to say what the process is there.
Edited to strike out incorrect information.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
To put things simply, you're wrong. A simple test with ACT will reveal that WC does nothing to affect effectiveness, which tells you that WC is a buff, not a debuff. If you can't run ACT, look at your combat log, and calculate effectiveness manually. Please do not provide feedback on SW mechanics if you do not know how SW mechanics work.
I stand corrected. I should know better than to take a tooltip description literally in this game.
However, the snark is unnecessary; you can extend me the courtesy of some benefit of the doubt that I made a simple mistake/oversight and generally do know what I am talking about otherwise.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Hell, not even the at-wills got any buffs. That was a while back, other classes, even the DC got buffs to their at-wills.
Why did CW get a huge buff to disintegrate and no bone can be tossed at this class? I don't get it. Nothing really synergizes well for this class.