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Ideas for CW Rework/Balance

cheesey#4444 cheesey Posts: 45Member Arc User
edited August 2 in The Library
A few suggestions and ideas if the devs decide to ever rework/balance CW. :wink:

Basic
  • Increase all damage of powers by ~35%.
  • Remove the if it Crits on the first hit, it will always crit from all powers. Let each hit determine whether its going to crit or not. Its really annoying when you have 97% Crit chance and Cast a non Critting Icy Terrain.
Mechanics:
  • Arcane Stacks: Increase the damage per stack from 3% to 4%.

At Wills:
  • Chilling Cloud: Widen the 3rd Cast AOE to 10' and increase its target cap which is currently at 3 or something to 5.
  • Storm Pillar: Make this an Encounter like At Will. So its an almost instant Cast Fully Charged Pillar with a small Cooldown of like 3 Seconds. As it is at the moment, its very clunky and situational. Also let the Arcs Crit and widen the Arc AOE to 12' up from 8'.
  • Magic Missiles: Let the 3/4/5 hits count as individual hits. At the moment they count as 1 hit when it comes to procing powers.
  • Projectile Type Powers: Maybe bring back the ability to move while casting them.
Encounters:
  • Entangling Force: Let this be a DoT that works similarly to Conduit of Ice where it can proc things more than once. This will make it more competitive with CoI.
Dailies:
  • Arcane Singularity: Reverse the Target Cap nerf introduced a lots mods ago, put it back up to 15. It is currently at 8.
  • Ice Storm: Increase its target cap of 5 to 10.
Class Features:
  • Chilling Presence: Decrease the damage per Stack from 2% to 1%. Makes this Feature less mandatory for damage
  • Arcane Presence: Increase the amount it allows you to benefit from Arcane Mastery to +50% per Rank
  • Arcane Powerfield: Lower its tick rate to once every 0.6 seconds and let it last 6 seconds.
  • Storm Fury: Always activates when you are struck.
  • Frost Wave: Should be totally reworked. Possibly make it so it increases stats. ie Max HP +3% per rank, deflect chance +2% per rank and life steal chance +2% per rank.
Feats:
Oppressor:
  • Shatter Strike: Its a good power than needs a bit of a buff to get it similar to other classes Capstones.
  • Suggestion: Increase its 'Shatter Strike' component to deal 65% Weapon Damage and remove the 'control' part of the tooltip. Let the 'Shatter' Component Scale properly like other powers. Also let this ability to be triggered again without having to remove Chill and having to Freeze the targets again.
  • Controlled Momentum: Change the buff to 3/6/9/12/15%.
  • Alacrity: Up its Chance to happen. It seems kinda low when I tried it.
  • Cold Infusion: Up its debuff to 2/4/8/10%.
  • Chilling Control: Really bad when you have Icy Veins. Suggestion: Using Sudden Storm grants you 2/4/6/8/10% of your max AP.
Thaumaturge:
  • Assailant: The problem with this power is that it doesn't crit and doesn't scale with CA and its not great in AOE situations. Given that the current most current Capstone or near Capstone feats contribute to around 25% of your overall damage, this needs a bit of a rework. Suggestion: To bring back a bit of consistency with CW Powers, it would be nice if this power had a 100% chance to proc against all targets on every hit and tick of powers. Its damage should be reduced to around ~120% Weapon damage and should be able to Crit and work with CA. It should also be ~70% less effective when used with AOE Powers.
  • Elemental Empowerment: The Creeping Frost element is fine how it is, but the Warped Magics part seems a bit broken, it doesn't scale in the same way Creeping Frost does. Suggestion: Warped Magics should ignore half of the targets resistance and not ignore half of the debuffs on the target, just like the tooltip says. In addition to that, maybe both Creeping Frost and Warped Magics should grant a 1/2/3/4/5% damage buff on target that lasts for the duration of the power. As both CP and WM cannot stack, this wont either.
  • Transcendent Master: Kinda useless since Shard and IR have been made unused. Suggestion Increases your Maximum Arcane Stacks by 1/2/3/4/5.
  • Far Spell: There is no use for increasing the Range of Powers. Suggestion: Increase the Radius of AOE Powers by 2/4/6/8/10ft.
  • Snap Freeze: Really bad. Suggestion: Flip it so its 2/4/6/8/10% more damage vs targets afflicted with chill.
Renegade:
  • Abyss of Chaos: Should be allowed to Critically Strike and Scale with all buffs just like any other power.
  • Unrestrained Chaos: Additionally hitting a target with MoC grants allies 2/4/6/8/10% of their max hp as a shield
  • Energy Recovery: 25% chance on 3rd Cast of Chilling Cloud to give 3 nearby allies 5/10/15/20/25% of their HP as Temp HP.
Please keep this discussion about CW! :smile:
«13

Comments

  • kriptical1kriptical1 Posts: 284Member Arc User
    Lots of good stuff here!
    Question: would you prefer the conversation to revolve around the present state of the game or can we branch out a little. I ask this because if we are to continue to have Control in out title we should have the capability to ae mez, as well as charm. Granted this is kinda outside what Neverwinter is all about so its understandable that you don't want the distraction.
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,249Member Arc User
    edited August 3
    CW’s don’t lack for control, AoE or otherwise. The bigger issue is that murder is the best CC of all, therefore control is regarded as a bonus rather than as a necessity.

    On a quick side note to the OP, buffs to abilities like Arcane Singularity and Ice Storm will not help in terms of class balance. Singularity will only become desirable again if there are mechanics that require insistently ranged targets to be forced together, and Ice Storm is generally toxic due to its horrid knockback. The last thing I want is for Ice Storm to troll even harder.
    Contagion - DC
    Testament - CW
    Sacrilege - SW
    Dominion - OP

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • kriptical1kriptical1 Posts: 284Member Arc User
    We can agree knockback is useless in most situations.

    As for the death is the best crowd control..well.. that actually kind of makes my point because killing mobs doesn’t really equate to crowd control in my mind.
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,249Member Arc User

    We can agree knockback is useless in most situations.



    As for the death is the best crowd control..well.. that actually kind of makes my point because killing mobs doesn’t really equate to crowd control in my mind.

    The challenge on devs' part is to make control useful and desirable without making CWs mandatory or without enabling it to further trivialize content.

    I've read a lot of suggestions along the lines of "make mobs tougher and have more HP so that they don't die instantly and need to be controlled", but that can easily lead to some version of the old CW meta.

    I'm not exactly against making other improvements to CW, but fluffing their control powers won't do a thing to improve their position in the meta, and neither will a few QoL changes. In the current (and likely future) state of the game, it's their boss damage potential that needs to improve in order to be objectively competitive as a primary DPS role. Additionally or alternatively, their buff/debuff strength needs to be slightly elevated so that it isn't quite as far behind that of Templock. Even a DPS MoF's superior personal damage doesn't look as attractive when you consider that Templock also serves as a top-notch healer for most situations in the game (a notable exception being the Strahd fight in CR, where much of the damage comes in while nothing is targetable) and literally makes dungeons go faster with a frequent movement speed buff.
    Contagion - DC
    Testament - CW
    Sacrilege - SW
    Dominion - OP

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • kriptical1kriptical1 Posts: 284Member Arc User
    Making mobs which are tougher, as well as more HP, is actually not a bad start, as long as their DPS isn't ramped up. This would encourage smarter group play, varied strategies, and generally more fun all around. Hopefully without making it too out of reach for lesser geared toons. It would just take them longer per se.

    With good zone construction and mob placement/clustering, both crowd control and dare I say it...pulling :x could become worthwhile endeavors. Again with the creating a good environment for teamwork. That said, Crowd control should be spread across the other classes as well, snares, Lull/Pacifies, worthwhile root, Charms(which should be a bit dangerous) could breath new life into a fun combat system.

    As far as DPS increase, im 100% with you. While I think playing a GWF would be a complete snooze fest, we..sadly are just not competitive against comparably geared toons. I'd be down for more arcane stacks, shorter cast times, mostly MoF here, SS is actually pretty decent with 13.7k recovery with the exception of RoE which I still can't get to overlap, even when recovery peaks at around 16ish K and 5 stacks of arcane. Kinda nuts there...
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 219Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    A few suggestions and ideas if the devs decide to ever rework/balance CW. :wink:

    Basic

    • Increase all damage of powers by ~35%.
    • Remove the if it Crits on the first hit, it will always crit from all powers. Let each hit determine whether its going to crit or not. Its really annoying when you have 97% Crit chance and Cast a non Critting Icy Terrain.
    Mechanics:
    • Arcane Stacks: Increase the damage per stack from 3% to 4%.

    At Wills:
    • Chilling Cloud: Widen the 3rd Cast AOE to 10' and increase its target cap which is currently at 3 or something to 5.
    • Storm Pillar: Make this an Encounter like At Will. So its an almost instant Cast Fully Charged Pillar with a small Cooldown of like 3 Seconds. As it is at the moment, its very clunky and situational. Also let the Arcs Crit and widen the Arc AOE to 12' up from 8'.
    • Magic Missiles: Let the 3/4/5 hits count as individual hits. At the moment they count as 1 hit when it comes to procing powers.
    • Projectile Type Powers: Maybe bring back the ability to move while casting them.
    Encounters:
    • Entangling Force: Let this be a DoT that works similarly to Conduit of Ice where it can proc things more than once. This will make it more competitive with CoI.
    Dailies:
    • Arcane Singularity: Reverse the Target Cap nerf introduced a lots mods ago, put it back up to 15. It is currently at 8.
    • Ice Storm: Increase its target cap of 5 to 10.
    Class Features:
    • Chilling Presence: Decrease the damage per Stack from 2% to 1%. Makes this Feature less mandatory for damage
    • Arcane Presence: Increase the amount it allows you to benefit from Arcane Mastery to +50% per Rank
    • Arcane Powerfield: Lower its tick rate to once every 0.6 seconds and let it last 6 seconds.
    • Storm Fury: Always activates when you are struck.
    • Frost Wave: Should be totally reworked. Possibly make it so it increases stats. ie Max HP +3% per rank, deflect chance +2% per rank and life steal chance +2% per rank.
    Feats:
    Oppressor:
    • Shatter Strike: Its a good power than needs a bit of a buff to get it similar to other classes Capstones.
    • Suggestion: Increase its 'Shatter Strike' component to deal 65% Weapon Damage and remove the 'control' part of the tooltip. Let the 'Shatter' Component Scale properly like other powers. Also let this ability to be triggered again without having to remove Chill and having to Freeze the targets again.
    • Controlled Momentum: Change the buff to 3/6/9/12/15%.
    • Alacrity: Up its Chance to happen. It seems kinda low when I tried it.
    • Cold Infusion: Up its debuff to 2/4/8/10%.
    • Chilling Control: Really bad when you have Icy Veins. Suggestion: Using Sudden Storm grants you 2/4/6/8/10% of your max AP.
    Thaumaturge:
    • Assailant: The problem with this power is that it doesn't crit and doesn't scale with CA and its not great in AOE situations. Given that the current most current Capstone or near Capstone feats contribute to around 25% of your overall damage, this needs a bit of a rework. Suggestion: To bring back a bit of consistency with CW Powers, it would be nice if this power had a 100% chance to proc against all targets on every hit and tick of powers. Its damage should be reduced to around ~120% Weapon damage and should be able to Crit and work with CA. It should also be ~70% less effective when used with AOE Powers.
    • Elemental Empowerment: The Creeping Frost element is fine how it is, but the Warped Magics part seems a bit broken, it doesn't scale in the same way Creeping Frost does. Suggestion: Warped Magics should ignore half of the targets resistance and not ignore half of the debuffs on the target, just like the tooltip says. In addition to that, maybe both Creeping Frost and Warped Magics should grant a 1/2/3/4/5% damage buff on target that lasts for the duration of the power. As both CP and WM cannot stack, this wont either.
    • Transcendent Master: Kinda useless since Shard and IR have been made unused. Suggestion Increases your Maximum Arcane Stacks by 1/2/3/4/5.
    • Far Spell: There is no use for increasing the Range of Powers. Suggestion: Increase the Radius of AOE Powers by 2/4/6/8/10ft.
    • Snap Freeze: Really bad. Suggestion: Flip it so its 2/4/6/8/10% more damage vs targets afflicted with chill.
    Renegade:
    • Abyss of Chaos: Should be allowed to Critically Strike and Scale with all buffs just like any other power.
    • Unrestrained Chaos: Additionally hitting a target with MoC grants allies 2/4/6/8/10% of their max hp as a shield
    • Energy Recovery: 25% chance on 3rd Cast of Chilling Cloud to give 3 nearby allies 5/10/15/20/25% of their HP as Temp HP.
    Please keep this discussion about CW! :smile:
    The class has been a design mess for many, many mods now. The class is far behind where the game has been for the last 3 mods (longer actually, but mod 12 made it obvious).

    You've made suggestions.
    They are reasonable.
    CWs have been making suggestions for over 3 years, and all of them have been ignored.
    The DEVs are well aware of how to make changes and tweak results (as they demonstrated very neatly when they killed off entity procs, then made a quick series of changes to ensure that the CW stayed where it was).

    Quite honestly, the message that people need to understand in this forum is that the DEVs are well aware of the problems of being a CW, and are very clearly not interested in doing anything about it.

    -------

    This forum has become a kind of sad hangout to explore any kind of change in the game that might be good news, for end-game viability. It never ends well.

    You get your build guides here: None of them changes the fact that the CW is now the least viable class in Neverwinter for end game content (especially with the boost the TRs got and the exploit for the SW).

    You get your exploration of the lightning/entity proc/SpellStorm change: Nothing changed.

    You get your Oppressor ShatterStrike change: Ridiculous design outcome where Oppressor becomes the best option to some kind of DPS viability. No change to how unwanted CWs are.

    They fixed a lot of things about the Orcus DPS set: no real change to CW standing.


    https://arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1240123/being-ignored-for-speccing-as-a-mof-oppressor/p2
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,099Member Arc User
    edited August 12
    While I like at least many of the suggestions the AUTHOR made in his original post; I've also asked why Wizard's haven't had a least a few powers or feat's improved - especially after the Lightning Enchantment Changes - which again mostly seem to greatly benefit GWF, and their already in the TOP DPS role! I mean even the Elven Bronzewood Enchant that does Arcane damage also marks target's benefitting mostly the GWF and their feat.

    I mean it be really nice to see a Celestial Arcane Enchantment mostly benefitting Mage's/Arcana users; as it somehow enhances Arcana &/or Light based Magic.

    Yet it seems they are slower to make changes to Wizard's to making them a little more prominent. We rarely see Wizard's even in a secondary or even third DPS role; if we even see them in a Dungeons these days. So rather than making a series of complicated changes I'd instead propose a very simple, clean and elegant solution first!

    1st: Extend the Stacks that Arcane Mastery provides from 5 stacks out to 7 stacks at maximum.

    2nd: Extend the Damage that Arcane Mastery provides per stack from 3% out to 4%.

    Still I've never understood why Arcane Presence extends a 34/33/33/33% per level for Cold damage. Still I doubt we'll see that Class power reworked - and several classes have some that could be improved. Pathfinder Hunter Rangers with Cruel Recovery & Battlehoned don't scale and are insignificant at the start of end game. B)

    3rd: Thaumaturge's Snap Freeze Feat.
    ▪ Update it so Cold based At-Wils & Encounters deal an additional 2/4/6/8/10% damage who ARE effected by chill.
    ╘ It's silly to have damage boost that's instantly negated cause most Cold powers add a stack.

    NOTE: Cold Damage is mostly used for Controls to Slow, Immobilize, & Freeze or mostly for AoE - rarely single target.

    Realize even if Wizard's were given 1-2 extra stacks &/or 1-2% more damage per stack; they'd still require Mastery to ensure they're always refreshing stacks regularly; or risk loosing the ones they've slowly build up. Still I don't think Wizard need's a massive increase by any means, but they of all the classes needing a little extra attention or Spark being returned to the their class.

    Many Pathfinder Hunter Ranger's would also like their Careful Attack fixed they lost 5-7 months ago due to a BUG. :'(
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 1,766Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Here's two changes I'd consider:

    Blame Sharp

    For every time you blame Sharp about something that goes wrong or right in the game, gain a stack of 10% bonus damage. This stacks exponentially and is instance wide.

    If @thefabricant is in the queue group when this happens, @thefabricant loses all professions assets and the team recieves a permanent 200% damage buff per professions tool lost. For each legendary or mythic tool lost, every player in the queue gains 20,000,000 unrefined astral diamonds.

    Constant Whining

    Gain a stack of 5% bonus damage for each time players of the CW class complain about something. Stacks multiplicatively and stacks indefintely.
  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Posts: 290Member Arc User
    edited August 8
    I'd like to see oppressor be the AoE dps/control path, Thaum become the single target dps path, and renegade be a more focused support path.

    Make assailant function like the control immune portion of Shatter strike, and remove the control immune portion of shatter strike.

    It'd be nice to get another self damage boost deep in the Thaum tree as well. No current ideas for what that would look like though.

    Swap controlled momentum with Masterful Arcane Theft.
    Also, make shatter strike extend freeze duration in addition to chill duration.

    Chaos Magic still needs a complete rework. Maybe something like providing a damage bonus for the team based on the total debuffs of the enemy you last hit? That would provide incentive to slot swath and combustive instead of dps class features.

    I also wouldn't mind a team defensive feature in the renegade tree. I had proposed a minature barkshield like effect for teammates standing on your icy terrain a long time ago that I still think would be an excellent addition.

    There's number tweaks that would need to go along with this of course, but these are the over arcing changes to the feat trees that I think would create more defined roles for the CW.
  • kriptical1kriptical1 Posts: 284Member Arc User
    An aside: an AE RoE, would possibly go a long way towards helping, both MoF, and Ss’s when it couple to group attractiveness.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 219Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    strathkin said:

    While I like at least many of the suggestions the AUTHOR made in his original post;
    ....

    Yeah, kudos to you cheesey.

    After 3 years I've given up on suggesting ideas thinking that the DEVs have any kind of intent showing CWs any kind of consideration. For 3 modules now they've seen CWs as the unwanted class in party formation, and no sign of wanting to address it in any way.
    My post is only for you to understand how fruitless it is to post suggestions, hoping that it will mean something.
    They already know, have known for a long time, and can easily make some much appreciated adjustments if they've any interest at all in how unwanted we are.
    Please don't hold your breath hoping that anything you say here will have any kind of positive affect.



  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,099Member Arc User
    edited August 10

    strathkin said:

    While I like at least many of the suggestions the AUTHOR made in his original post;
    ....

    Yeah, kudos to you cheesey.

    After 3 years I've given up on suggesting ideas thinking that the DEVs have any kind of intent showing CWs any kind of consideration. For 3 modules now they've seen CWs as the unwanted class in party formation, and no sign of wanting to address it in any way.
    My post is only for you to understand how fruitless it is to post suggestions, hoping that it will mean something.
    They already know, have known for a long time, and can easily make some much appreciated adjustments if they've any interest at all in how unwanted we are.
    Please don't hold your breath hoping that anything you say here will have any kind of positive affect.
    Well I still have a lot more faith in the DEVs and team at Cryptic - that they do listen quite often - even if they don't always agree or think something needs to be done. But Lightning Nerf really hurt Wizard's even though it still will multi-PROC for GWFs the highest DPS class in the game.

    Having said that I've also noted it's rare you see Wizard's, running end game dungeons all that often. Hunter Ranger's are also hurting a little since Careful Attack got it's BUG, it's seen all HR's change to Stormwarden, but they still have a viable option for end game at least.

    While I have in the past year, I've commented on, or seen many similar threads - even made suggestions similar to @cheesey#4444 yet realize it would take significantly DEV time on any major rework for Wizard's. I certainly do agree however Wizard's needs a slight correction or a little extra Spark! Just as Warlock's were given a little extra love following some of their earlier changes in Mod 12 our Wizard's still need a little extra love.

    It's why I've instead proposed 3 far simpler changes in hopes something might be done sooner rather than later.

    1st: Extend the Stacks that Arcane Mastery provides from 5 stacks out to 7 stacks at maximum.

    2nd: Extend the Damage that Arcane Mastery provides per stack from 3% out to 4%.

    3rd: Thaumaturge's Snap Freeze Feat.
    ▪ Update it so Cold based At-Wils & Encounters deal an additional 2/4/6/8/10% damage who ARE effected by chill.
    ╘ It's silly to have damage boost that's instantly negated cause most Cold powers add a stack.

    Still I always TRY hard to keep the FAITH - because Corellon would otherwise be disappointed in my Elves.

    @nitocris83 @percemer
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • kalina311kalina311 Posts: 1,341Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 10
    "Far Spell: There is no use for increasing the Range of Powers." strongly disagree it range should be perhaps increased in fact ..

    speak for yourself dude greater cw range = faster initiative in pve(clearling trash intermediate / advanced stuff and in pvp especially when ranger and warlocks have powers that are 30-60+ feet range waaayy longer range / reach then cw who are supposed to be ranged as well
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 162Member Arc User
    edited August 10
    kalina311 said:

    "Far Spell: There is no use for increasing the Range of Powers." strongly disagree it range should be perhaps increased in fact ..

    speak for yourself dude greater cw range = faster initiative in pve(clearling trash intermediate / advanced stuff and in pvp especially when ranger and warlocks have powers that are 30-60+ feet range waaayy longer range / reach then cw who are supposed to be ranged as well

    I really miss the disagree button, now I have actually type out that "this is just nonsense", way more effort and more rude than that convenient button :(
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,099Member Arc User
    edited August 10

    kalina311 said:

    "Far Spell: There is no use for increasing the Range of Powers." strongly disagree it range should be perhaps increased in fact ..

    speak for yourself dude greater cw range = faster initiative in pve(clearling trash intermediate / advanced stuff and in pvp especially when ranger and warlocks have powers that are 30-60+ feet range waaayy longer range / reach then cw who are supposed to be ranged as well

    I really miss the disagree button, now I have actually type out that "this is just nonsense", way more effort and more rude than that convenient button :(
    Well I admit I don't use Far Spell either on my build's, yet there are some who like it, and the game is about choices...

    Still I think he makes a fair point - Wizard's should cast as far as a Warlock's - if they so decide to make those investments. Yet I do think HR's should at least be given the slight upper hand in that regard.

    Still I don't miss the disagree button at all - because it was too general - if someone makes a point, or several in fact, you should comment on what, or why you disagree. B)
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 219Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    strathkin said:


    Well I still have a lot more faith in the DEVs and team at Cryptic - that they do listen quite often - even if they don't always agree or think something needs to be done.
    ...
    Having said that I've also noted it's rare you see Wizard's, running end game dungeons all that often.
    ....
    I realize it would take significantly DEV time on any major rework for Wizard's.
    .....
    Still I always TRY hard to keep the FAITH - because Corellon would otherwise be disappointed in my Elves.
    ....

    Yeah, I always play an elvish mage, and like you, I kept the faith - for 3 years.

    There's blind, stupid faith, and there's faith that gets smacked around until eventually it wakes up and dies.

    So, lets go over facts, and see how faith stack up against them:

    - When the level cap got raised from 60 to 70, we got a bunch of new features and powers, but the only one ever used by anyone is Disintegrate. The rest were Control features - useless in the way the game evolved since then.

    - When they did their "class balancing" over a year ago, they did the classes in pairs, leaving GWF and CW for last. Thing is though, they stopped before they got to the GWF and the CW. That left the GWFs very happy where they were, and the CWs very unhappy where they were. Looking back, putting GWFs and CWs together as the "final pair to fix", was clearly a very deliberate plan.

    - The next change they made to CWs after all that time, a year later, was to correct a mistake in disintegrate, and give you an arcane stack from disintegrate. Big deal - completely ignorable.

    - We did get an indirect benefit for a while. They introduced the (non-CW specific) mirage weapons, that made lightning entity procs quite nice for a while. It was actually fun playing an end-game CW for a while. Not enough to make them a wanted DPS - but fun.

    - Then, they decided to remove entity dot procs from the game, basically killing off the fun they'd indirectly given CWs, effectively ending lightning enchant, and we pretty much went back to Fey. Funny thing is though, they avoided a death scream from the CW community, with a couple of manipulations on the preview server on SpellStorm. It first it was a full crit (which almost made the CW a plausible DPS), and then nerfed it to put CWs right back where they were before the entity-proc nerf.
    *That* was the real eye opener. It showed very clearly that the DEVs could quickly and easily help CWs be a plausible end-game DPS option with the kind of tweaks Bob Gutschera described in the Cryptic 'State of the Game' twitter - they just choose not to.

    - Are you aware of how extremely poor the stats are for CWs when it comes to counting how often they're included in end-game parties? I used to count the class compositions on a daily basis. It's a very, very bad result, and a massive bias from a statistical view point. Keep in mind - Cryptic are very aware of these things.
    - Now, perhaps go over the last 20 updates, and pay specific attention to whenever they mention class balance and powers. Have a look at various little tweaks they've made for other classes, and have a good search for any point where they ever did anything for CWs - especially over the last 3 modules, where we're clearly an unwanted class.

    So.... keeping the (blind) faith??? Does keeping any kind of faith make any kind of sense? Was there some positive point I missed that I should have included above? Please feel free to help me bolster my own faith with anything that makes any kind of rational sense.

    Whilst the class rework you speak of is appropriate, isn't it obvious that they could at least do some tweak (that's all it took for the TR and the SW) to make us a plausible inclusion for end-game runs - but simply choose not to?
    You think they *must* eventually do something because that's the fundamental developer/player MMO trust? Review the above (time available to do something simple, not acted on), and think again.
    You think that because eventually TRs and SWsget some joy (one an unintended consequence they seem to failed attempting to fix, and the other a recent exploit), eventually the CWs's turn will come?
    Think again. Think of how deliberately the CW was matched with the GWF in class balancing that never happened. Think of all the class tweaks done in updates, and how ignored the CW has been.

    Please, give me some logical reason, based on facts we've garnered over the last 3 years, to have any kind of faith.
    I had faith - I just got tired of being stupid about it.
  • kalina311kalina311 Posts: 1,341Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 10

    kalina311 said:

    "Far Spell: There is no use for increasing the Range of Powers." strongly disagree it range should be perhaps increased in fact ..

    speak for yourself dude greater cw range = faster initiative in pve(clearling trash intermediate / advanced stuff and in pvp especially when ranger and warlocks have powers that are 30-60+ feet range waaayy longer range / reach then cw who are supposed to be ranged as well

    I really miss the disagree button, now I have actually type out that "this is just nonsense", way more effort and more rude than that convenient button :(
    I really miss the disagree button as well so i will settle for LOL ..

    ..as a former top PVP CW you can try and tell me my far spell did not give me some edge and was not usefull and my key to success bro , reaching pillars , fighting gap vs powers(gwf gf) and keeping opponents at bay with longer reach / getting the initiative first ..(also reminder there used to not be a hr or warlock class in pvp either and as they were introduced far spell became even more usefull for fighting them and protecting nodes // fighting cws that did not have it
    were at a disadvantage against other cws with farspell also

    fine give far spell to all cws and remove it as a feat .

    and players already backed me up regarding the crippled range compared to hr or warlock

    would you like screen shots made available to prove my pvp records were not nonsense or are we done here?

    you try and tell me after 1000+ pvp/pve posts that i am spewing nonsense deliberately or out of ignorance

    P.S I dont care that far spell is less / more usefull in pve vs pvp either

    we are more likely to get a new class faster at this point then any cws additions or balance
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,099Member Arc User
    edited August 29
    Well @lukejones77 I think your comments represent how at least some, if not a small to moderate majority of Wizard's feel the last several Mod's.

    Why I've said the very least they could do as a starting point:

    1st: Extend the Stacks that Arcane Mastery provides from 5 stacks out to 7 stacks at least.

    *To build Arcane Mastery takes time - and if it's not refreshed - it can all be quickly lost. :'(

    2nd: Extend the Damage that Arcane Mastery provides per stack from 3% out to 4%.

    3rd: Thaumaturge's Snap Freeze Feat.
    ▪ Update it so Cold based At-Wils & Encounters deal an additional 2/4/6/8/10% damage who ARE effected by chill.
    ╘ It's silly to have damage boost that's instantly negated cause most Cold powers add a stack.

    Say that be about an additonal 1%/1%/1%/1%/1%/4%/4% per stack or 4-13% total damage increase over what we get today; if you regularly maintained & refreshed Arcane Stacks. Still very subtle & considering the points you provided above seems a reasonable request to make.

    Yet the more I think about it, the more I wish more would...

    Quick thought: It be nice if Class balance focused less on changing powers, feat's directly.
    ▪ Be nice to see most first focused on buff/debuff in Class: Mechanic, TAB features, or Capstone exclusively.
    ╘ by add/subtracting small Control &/or Damage buff/debuff - class balance be within reach.
    ♠ Wizard (e.g.) Arcane Mastery adds 2 stacks &/or a +1% damage per Stack.


    One other suggestion to perhaps encourage Diversity:
    Sure don't limit Private Party's: Yet no more than 1 of each class, for each 5 player threshold.
    ▪ A Party of 05 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 1 of each class.
    ▪ A Party of 10 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 2 of each class.
    ▪ A Party of 25 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 5 of each class.

    FYI: A lot of thought made to how power's, or individual feat's work: changing those is ugly.
    ╘ it also requires more time to change more individual powers, feat's, while introducing more bugs.
    ╘ increases should also be more gradual or made in slower/smaller corrections - not huge - but incremental.

    As you've now explained it I think I can at least more fully appreciate what you perhaps meant. Now I did message you saying it's fine if you want to advocate for Far Spell to be increased out to 3/6/9/12/15 and even admit I could maybe even support that. Otherwise I have tried exclusively to limit changes to Mechanics, TAB abilities, or Capstone Feat's exclusively.

    Class balance be far easier: Choose 1 of - Class Mechanic's, TAB abilities, or Capstone Feats

    Also it's often far better to make far more slow, small, and gradual updates more regularly.
    ╘ if they did that class balance might actually become a lot more realistic!

    Now I've also commented I'd love to see a Mage based Arcane Weapon Enchant. Perhaps a Celestial inspired one for the Lighter Mage's that aren't trying to be so Dark or perhaps trying to reform to the Lighter side Arcana / Fey Magic.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Posts: 290Member Arc User
    @kalina311 I was agreeing with him being sad the disagree button is gone. I have not or ever will care about anything pvp related in this game. I dabble from time to time but with no real effort. So feel free to leave me out of any pvp squabbles.
  • kalina311kalina311 Posts: 1,341Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 10
    ya i use lol for disagree ... thught you were agreeing with him for disagreeing with me

    character and classes / cw and their (lack of ) range are independent of pvp or pve tho ,,.
    thats why i said cw should get far spell for free built in
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 832Member Arc User
    edited August 10
    @lukejones77 "...all it took for SW"?!
    The weakest damage dealer even with Bug of Hadar? Do you even know what Bug of Hadar is? I still don't understand how people believe CW is weaker than SW when you guys have better tools to deal damage o.O Anyway, both classes indeed are lagging behind the rest (especially the poor buglock) so a damage increase definitely is a good suggestion.

    What about reworking Foccused Wizardry and/or making Ice Knife and Disintegrate more powerful? Would that be a step in the right direction?
  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Posts: 290Member Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    thats why i said cw should get far spell for free built in

    I'm not against that, but I can say with 100% certainty that it would have absolutely 0 effect in pve.

    In fact to people who don't know better it would probably have a negative effect allowing players to dps from farther away and missing out on more buffs.
  • kalina311kalina311 Posts: 1,341Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 10
    what a pally or cleric aura only reaches 20 feet and not 30 that far spell would give ?
    I know warlock or rangers buff circles are small tho ..

    are rangers and warlocks missing out on buffs due to thier range ? in group content >

    cw / or any class for that matter ..can still be positioned wrong and not in buff range regardless of 20 or 30 feet = clueless player

    why does all the dev content force everyone to huddle together anyways in a small buff circle ???... hmm

    ya the face tanking boss for 10 minutes meta does not need range but what about other content

    what about soloing and doing your dailies etc can you not clear content faster with more speed and range ?
    and more time for recovery to reset your cool downs as enemies close

    like any meta game mechanic eventually people do know better if they are told and want to listen... this applies to many classes and powers and situations pretty much
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,099Member Arc User
    edited August 29
    kalina311 said:

    what a pally or cleric aura only reaches 20 feet and not 30 that far spell would give ?
    I know warlock or rangers buff circles are small tho ..

    cw can still be positioned wrong and not in buff range regardless of 20 or 30 feet = clueless player

    why does all the dev content force everyone to huddle together anyways in a small buff circle ???... hmm

    Cleric's and Paladin's have a 30' Aura. Though realize a Paladin's can extend it to 40' with Dominating Presence. Still however for one to gain a Paladin's feat you have to stay within that range for 6 seconds and will loose it the second you go beyond that range. So if a Wizard wants to leave the immediate area and suffer the loss of some of those buff's that's a choice by the player, or perhaps they are staying in the Aura zone and simply targeting enemy further away?

    @lukejones77 "...all it took for SW"?!

    The weakest damage dealer even with Bug of Hadar? Do you even know what Bug of Hadar is? I still don't understand how people believe CW is weaker than SW when you guys have better tools to deal damage o.O Anyway, both classes indeed are lagging behind the rest (especially the poor buglock) so a damage increase definitely is a good suggestion.



    What about reworking Foccused Wizardry and/or making Ice Knife and Disintegrate more powerful? Would that be a step in the right direction?

    Yea I think this is a simple and yet easy to implement solution to address the problem. This will increase the damage of all Arcane abilities including Entangling Force, Ray of Enfeeblement, as well as many others...

    Quick thought: It be nice if Class balance focused less on changing powers, feat's directly.
    ▪ Be nice to see most first focused on buff/debuff in Class: Mechanic, TAB features, or Capstone exclusively.
    ╘ by add/subtracting small Control &/or Damage buff/debuff - class balance be within reach.
    ♠ Wizard (e.g.) Arcane Mastery adds 2 stacks &/or a +1% damage per Stack.

    One other suggestion to perhaps encourage Diversity:
    Sure don't limit Private Party's: Yet no more than 1 of each class, for each 5 player threshold.
    ▪ A Party of 05 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 1 of each class.
    ▪ A Party of 10 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 2 of each class.
    ▪ A Party of 25 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 5 of each class.

    FYI: A lot of thought made to how power's, or individual feat's work: changing those is ugly.
    ╘ it also requires more time to change more individual powers, feat's, while introducing more bugs.
    ╘ increases should also be more gradual or made in slower/smaller corrections - not huge - but incremental.

    As you've now explained it I think I can at least more fully appreciate what you perhaps meant. Now I did message you saying it's fine if you want to advocate for Far Spell to be increased out to 3/6/9/12/15 and even admit I could maybe even support that. Otherwise I have tried exclusively to limit changes to Mechanics, TAB abilities, or Capstone Feat's exclusively.

    Class balance be far easier: Choose 1 of - Class Mechanic's, TAB abilities, or Capstone Feats

    Also it's often far better to make far more slow, small, and gradual updates more regularly.
    ╘ if they did that class balance might actually become a lot more realistic!
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 162Member Arc User
    About Far spell, if you really want a debate:

    @strathkin: "Wizard should cast as far as Warlocks" Except that skill cannot help on that. Even the main point acknowledges that Far spell is only 10 feet and the difference ranges from 3 to 6 times against a warlock, so it can't function properly for the role. But that's the least that disturbs me on that skill.

    @kalina331: So, in PvE, that skill is basically garbage, because:
    -Oppressor is generally better than Thaumaturge.
    -You have to give up actual damage for that feat.
    -In PvE there's no "initiate". The mobs cannot damage you significantly, so you don't care who attacks first.
    -You can't be far from the battle, because the DC buffs have a lesser range than your skill.
    -It does not work with, icy terrain, icy veins, Oppressive force and Time steal or basically, non-single target skill. That's almost all of your skill rotation on trash.
    -No DC going to apply the buffs for only you prematurely, because that's the opposite of being an effective DC.
    -10 feet is not that much... Like, what you get in average, +20k damage before the fight?

    -On bosses, you just don't need this skill, you almost always will be spawned close enough.

    Shortly: It's bad on trash, because it's only applies to single powers and it's useless on bosses, because you jsut get spawned right in front of them. It's not even close to "noteworthy", just plain garbage

    "you try and tell me after 1000+ pvp/pve posts that i am spewing nonsense deliberately or out of ignorance " aka "I have more post so I am right..." yeah, that's spewing nonsense deliberately or out of ignorance. Or I have to spend this month spamming meme pictures to be worthy for your time... but mostly ignorance from your side.

    "fine give far spell to all cws and remove it as a feat." <- That's actually a thing I can agree with. Paying feat points for something that should be just a base concept of "yeah, they should cast far" is infuriatingly bad. It's like renting a car from someone that stole from you in the first place.

    Now, I skipped up PvP, because I don't PvP. But I don't claim nonsense about it. I don't try to act like PvP applies to PvE 1 in 1. And I'm not going to claim PvP specific things, but... that feat is a horrible design overall, and not just because the car rental thing, it's horribly placed.

    Most importantly, we have a HEROIC feats that do similar random things. reducing threat, gaining extra percentage of action points (so, not 10%, the +10% of what you should be getting) or gain 400 stat of crit as 1% and yeah, instead of that, +10 feat actually sounds something you can spec instead.

    But no, it's in the Thaum tree. But why? And for what? Everything in Thaum is DPS related and Oppressor was the supposed PvP tree. And now Thaum is just gone from PvE endgame. The only 2 skill that does not increase damage directly in that tree is Spell twisting and Far spell. Spell twisting does a huge indirect damage and far spell just lacks. It's not like +1-5% damage AND far, just cast far. And remember, every other initiate is one the other tree, aka Oppressor. It's pretty clear that skill does not belong there and should be in the Oppressor or even the renegade. The first 2 set of choice there are so bad that you can be persuaded to pick it instead of Energy recovery or Reaper's touch and you are giving up very little.

    And, the 4. row. So, if you want this, you have to give up on the 2 other capstone, just for this. But why? Why it cannot be on the 1-3 row? This is a pretty niche skill, it should be easily accessible, because even then, it's so disadvantageous in PvE that very few would pick it. Even if you like that skill, you cannot reasonably claim that it should be where it is. It's embedded in a tree deep and in a competitive spot. But this skill is giving very little, so it should not require a vast investment. And unlike the other 2 tree, Thaum does not really have a skippable thing for it.

    And that's why I want the disagree button back, because that was almost 4k character wasted on a discussion that why 1 specific feat is horrible. It's a waste of time and let's note, this is the nonexistent issue with the CW class.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Posts: 2,289Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 21

    About Far spell, if you really want a debate:

    @strathkin: "Wizard should cast as far as Warlocks" Except that skill cannot help on that. Even the main point acknowledges that Far spell is only 10 feet and the difference ranges from 3 to 6 times against a warlock, so it can't function properly for the role. But that's the least that disturbs me on that skill.

    @kalina331: So, in PvE, that skill is basically garbage, because:
    -Oppressor is generally better than Thaumaturge.
    -You have to give up actual damage for that feat.
    -In PvE there's no "initiate". The mobs cannot damage you significantly, so you don't care who attacks first.
    -You can't be far from the battle, because the DC buffs have a lesser range than your skill.
    -It does not work with, icy terrain, icy veins, Oppressive force and Time steal or basically, non-single target skill. That's almost all of your skill rotation on trash.
    -No DC going to apply the buffs for only you prematurely, because that's the opposite of being an effective DC.
    -10 feet is not that much... Like, what you get in average, +20k damage before the fight?

    -On bosses, you just don't need this skill, you almost always will be spawned close enough.

    Shortly: It's bad on trash, because it's only applies to single powers and it's useless on bosses, because you jsut get spawned right in front of them. It's not even close to "noteworthy", just plain garbage

    "you try and tell me after 1000+ pvp/pve posts that i am spewing nonsense deliberately or out of ignorance " aka "I have more post so I am right..." yeah, that's spewing nonsense deliberately or out of ignorance. Or I have to spend this month spamming meme pictures to be worthy for your time... but mostly ignorance from your side.

    "fine give far spell to all cws and remove it as a feat." <- That's actually a thing I can agree with. Paying feat points for something that should be just a base concept of "yeah, they should cast far" is infuriatingly bad. It's like renting a car from someone that stole from you in the first place.

    Now, I skipped up PvP, because I don't PvP. But I don't claim nonsense about it. I don't try to act like PvP applies to PvE 1 in 1. And I'm not going to claim PvP specific things, but... that feat is a horrible design overall, and not just because the car rental thing, it's horribly placed.

    Most importantly, we have a HEROIC feats that do similar random things. reducing threat, gaining extra percentage of action points (so, not 10%, the +10% of what you should be getting) or gain 400 stat of crit as 1% and yeah, instead of that, +10 feat actually sounds something you can spec instead.

    But no, it's in the Thaum tree. But why? And for what? Everything in Thaum is DPS related and Oppressor was the supposed PvP tree. And now Thaum is just gone from PvE endgame. The only 2 skill that does not increase damage directly in that tree is Spell twisting and Far spell. Spell twisting does a huge indirect damage and far spell just lacks. It's not like +1-5% damage AND far, just cast far. And remember, every other initiate is one the other tree, aka Oppressor. It's pretty clear that skill does not belong there and should be in the Oppressor or even the renegade. The first 2 set of choice there are so bad that you can be persuaded to pick it instead of Energy recovery or Reaper's touch and you are giving up very little.

    And, the 4. row. So, if you want this, you have to give up on the 2 other capstone, just for this. But why? Why it cannot be on the 1-3 row? This is a pretty niche skill, it should be easily accessible, because even then, it's so disadvantageous in PvE that very few would pick it. Even if you like that skill, you cannot reasonably claim that it should be where it is. It's embedded in a tree deep and in a competitive spot. But this skill is giving very little, so it should not require a vast investment. And unlike the other 2 tree, Thaum does not really have a skippable thing for it.

    And that's why I want the disagree button back, because that was almost 4k character wasted on a discussion that why 1 specific feat is horrible. It's a waste of time and let's note, this is the nonexistent issue with the CW class.</p>

    Disagree.

    (Edit: This was actually a semi-sarcastic joke about the disagree button, I don't agree nor disagree about the CW part)
    Post edited by micky1p00 on
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 162Member Arc User
    So, now that I'm into this discussion, I want to come through a few things with the base concept: "Some skills are so good, they make CW bad." Other examples are known as well, but the most obvious is.

    Chilling Presence: This skill is not just limiting the CW options, it's flawed design on it's core and needs a complete redo.

    -Chill stacks are basically control effects that Freezes when reaches 6. And while in a normal design environment higher control means less damage, this skill goes on full opposite. If the CW's best damage option goes with a free full control over anything, one of it gets rebalanced. In short, they never fix the ice control aspect of the class as long as we have Chilling presence.

    -It's just primitive. You have an icy veins feat, set down an icy terrain and bam, everything is frozen, +96% damage. It's just a trivial combination that you don't have to practice, just makes Chilling presence even more overpowered and icy veins to one of the best burst sources. And even when you are not using icy, it's a plain effect passive that just so aggressively good that most people just don't care to test out whether other ways are viable or if they do, they find out that the obvious way is the right.

    -You can only obliterate it or it remains auto-use. Because it's binary, it either gives enough damage for you, or not.

    Of course, this means that CW gets a big nerf, so damage compenation is necessary, and of course, if we clear the obstacles to make CC relevant again... the devs should make it too. Like, if the boss has to be immune to stun, let the chill stack up to like 20, so the slow part can be useful (and without CP, don't generate insane damage output).
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 219Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    lol, guys.

    The.Devs.Aren't.Interested.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 832Member Arc User
    edited August 11
    @strathkin

    Neverwinter is so buggy maybe merely increasing base damage by a decent amount would do the trick to make the class more powerful without ending up with broken powers (in a bad or convenient way) :) That's why I have suggested likewise for SW, sure, it may not be what you'd want but it should be easy and fast enough to do that it could actually be done, that's better than hoping for a complex rework devs will not commit to/be able to do. In the end, the class ends up becoming more powerful.
  • slysnow#2290 slysnow Posts: 93Member Arc User
    Far spell has its usefulness. Should be standard though and not a feat. In pve though I can see where it can be useful (extra dps already explained in earlier post) and not useful (stronger feats in thaum tree).

    People just have a one size fits all mentality build wise. Speaking from a more pvp stand point, that's the reason currently no cw is stronger than James or I (pvp) on ps4 yet constantly ask for our build. People refuse to think for themselves and try alternatives

    Also full on oppressor has NOT been the way to spec for a pvp cw for quite some time now. There are too many ways to render control useless. Hence the numerous jokes of dropping "control" from the cw name.
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