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Ideas for CW Rework/Balance

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  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 236Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    smulch said:

    vorphied said:

    I'd also argue that this persistent notion that being good at CW completely compensates for the class' inherent disadvantages is unhelpful at best. A great CW is still worse than a great DPS or support of almost any other flavor.

    CW may be more difficult to play well than some other classes, but it's still pretty far from rocket science. The big difference I perceive is that bad CWs are more painfully obvious since they stand out even amongst other badly played classes.

    While I don't disagree with you that CW are at a significant disadvantage compared to most other dps spec, the difficulty of playing the class at its full potential cause 2 things:

    CWs players think the class needs more buff than it really do AND it cause them to and they blame their bad damage on the class rather than their own ineptitude.

    Everyone else believe the class suck and as such, is unwanted in groups (at least as dps) because the average player is not able to use the class well compared to another class.

    I am actually changing people's opinion about CWs one group at a time but even that fight is extremely long and often feels like a sword swing in the water.
    Sorry, but this is wrong - disrespectful to players struggling with their CWs. There's no way you can know what others are thinking about how much of a buff CWs need, and little reason to think that your opinion of what it should be is actually correct.
    A class generalisation of people being inept and blaming on their class is even worse. Even if it takes more skill and care to play CW than some other classes, to pick a word like "inept" is just bad.

    Players vary in skill levels, and it applies across all classes. Pick any class, and you'll find those that make the most of it, those that take little advantage of the classes full capabilities, and most players in between.
    It's clearly a lot easier to play a GWF as a DPS than a CW (more damage, faster, tougher, more immunities), so you'd expect casual players to struggle more with a squishy lower DPS class (less life steal auto-heal etc). Labelling them "inept" is very harsh, especially when the class is intrinsically more challenging.

    Fact is though, the class *does* suck, once you've levelled, geared and want to play new end-game content. I don't care for anyone's personal opinions on damage of classes, whether there should be a buff, or whether there should be more control and not damage. The fact is, it's being clearly demonstrated that the CW, SW and TRs have not been part of the "meta" since mod 12. The recent reality is that TRs and SWs have been boosted, and now the CW sits by itself as terrible DPS and poor support (for new end-game content).
    This is a clear fact to anybody that frequently checks the newer module team class compositions.
    You were talking about DPS? The CWs that do get invites, mostly get invites as support - except when optimal/elite meta support parties take one as DPS (because those parties can take a 3 legged chihuahua as the main DPS and get away with it).


  • smulchsmulch Posts: 625Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    It's easy to see what people are thinking when it comes to buffing CWs. You just have to READ THIS VERY THREAD. I mean, seriously?

    My opinion might not be correct but it's fair, not because it's my opinion, but because my opinion ask that the class gets right in the middle of the rest with a preferable + or - 5% discrepancy.

    No, calling someone inept at something isn't harsh. People should know their own limitations. Just because you are inept at something doesn't mean you are a failure. I'm sure that if you asked a computer engineer to build a house, he'd be inept at it the same way the housebuilder would be inept at programming. The good news is that if you devote a little time, you can stop being inept! The truth, however, is that a lot of people don't care and prefer to stay in their mediocrity rather than learn (some will whine for buffs). It's fairly easy when some player playing the top dps class of the moment still ask for buffs because they aren't good at it (and are generally unaware that their class is top dog).

  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 236Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    smulch said:

    It's easy to see what people are thinking when it comes to buffing CWs. You just have to READ THIS VERY THREAD. I mean, seriously?

    My opinion might not be correct but it's fair, not because it's my opinion, but because my opinion ask that the class gets right in the middle of the rest with a preferable + or - 5% discrepancy.

    No, calling someone inept at something isn't harsh. People should know their own limitations. Just because you are inept at something doesn't mean you are a failure. I'm sure that if you asked a computer engineer to build a house, he'd be inept at it the same way the housebuilder would be inept at programming. The good news is that if you devote a little time, you can stop being inept! The truth, however, is that a lot of people don't care and prefer to stay in their mediocrity rather than learn (some will whine for buffs). It's fairly easy when some player playing the top dps class of the moment still ask for buffs because they aren't good at it (and are generally unaware that their class is top dog).

    It's a game, and fairly complex at that when it comes to maximising class potential. "Inept" means having or showing no skill", which is completely over the top in the context that you use it.
    The actual issue is that the class has become the most unwanted and irrelevant class to end-game content. You can stick to that, instead of getting stuck into players.

    If the DEVs create a situation where a class is struggling badly (which they have), what do you expect to happen? You're a smart guy. Of course, you expect the more casual or less skilled to struggle even more playing the class. That's just plain sensible. You might even hear complaints from them. No surprises there- just what somebody as smart as you should expect. What's the answer here? That all more casual players should work harder and raise their skill levels to compensate (above what players in other classes need to), or that the DEVs should fix the class problems? You already realise that the class is a complete design shambles. The Oppressor paragon is the go to DPS tree, which is the opposite of what it should be. Class powers and feats all about Control are useless the way the game has become. The DEVs advertise the class as DPS for queuing, which is nothing like it actually has to be played for end-game. So very many bad game flaws, yet you get stuck into the players for being inept?

    Casual players should be able to come and play it, without being labelled "inept".

  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,501Member Arc User
    Also, it’s not like CW is only 5% less capable than other DPS or support.

    Even when you have a proper HDPS MoF bringing solid personal damage while debuffing, it’s difficult to imagine a scenario except perhaps in a 10-man trial where the party wouldn’t be better served by another DPS or support of equivalent skill and gear.

    Considering the investment of resources and practice time it takes to bring CW up even to this point of grudging acceptance, this is still a major issue.
    Sacrilege - SW
    Contagion - DC
    Testament - CW
    Pestilence - HR
    Dominion - OP

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • smulchsmulch Posts: 625Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    no, I don't consider that oppressor should be the go to control tree. It's just a name.

    When I read "oppressor, thaumaturge, renegade", if I had no knowledge of the game, I wouldn't be able which one does what. It's us players that gave these paths labels.

    If the names of the paths were "controller, damage dealer, support", then yes, you'd have a point.


    You say that class powers that control are useless but that's far from true. Sure, they don't do much in the context of a boss fight, but I can assure you that icy terrain, steal time and oppressive force are all very useful in every dungeons except maybe codg. The control they bring helps a lot.

    Is there flaws within some powers with the class? yes. Many in fact. There's quite a high number of "you should never use this" with the class and those need fixing for sure. Some spells have bugs (icy terrain and sudden storm ie).

    My point isn't that cw are fine. My point is that CW aren't as bad off as the majority (or at least, the vocal majority) of CW players believe it to be. Those players would STILL be left behind if CW became balanced unless they learnt how to get better, which is my point.
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,501Member Arc User
    smulch said:

    no, I don't consider that oppressor should be the go to control tree. It's just a name.

    When I read "oppressor, thaumaturge, renegade", if I had no knowledge of the game, I wouldn't be able which one does what. It's us players that gave these paths labels.

    If the names of the paths were "controller, damage dealer, support", then yes, you'd have a point.

    To be fair, the reason many players expect such is that, historically Oppressor = control spec, Thaumaturge = DPS spec, Renegade = party support/hybrid DPS spec. Players didn't arbitrarily come up with this; it was supported by game design for years.


    Also, I'd argue that CW is at least as bad off as the vocal majority believe it to be. High-functioning CWs are the exceptions that prove the rule, and even in those cases they don't measure up favorably compared to their peers. In the current state of the game, I would not recommend that any new players start out as CW unless they have no designs whatsoever on end-game content.

    Sacrilege - SW
    Contagion - DC
    Testament - CW
    Pestilence - HR
    Dominion - OP

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 236Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    smulch said:

    no, I don't consider that oppressor should be the go to control tree. It's just a name.

    When I read "oppressor, thaumaturge, renegade", if I had no knowledge of the game, I wouldn't be able which one does what. It's us players that gave these paths labels.

    If the names of the paths were "controller, damage dealer, support", then yes, you'd have a point.


    You say that class powers that control are useless but that's far from true. Sure, they don't do much in the context of a boss fight, but I can assure you that icy terrain, steal time and oppressive force are all very useful in every dungeons except maybe codg. The control they bring helps a lot.

    Is there flaws within some powers with the class? yes. Many in fact. There's quite a high number of "you should never use this" with the class and those need fixing for sure. Some spells have bugs (icy terrain and sudden storm ie).

    My point isn't that cw are fine. My point is that CW aren't as bad off as the majority (or at least, the vocal majority) of CW players believe it to be. Those players would STILL be left behind if CW became balanced unless they learnt how to get better, which is my point.

    No, the paths are not just labels.
    Go to your feats page, and hover your mouse over the "labels". It will clearly tell you that Oppressor "Exploits Control powers to manipulate foes and arcane energy to increase survivability".
    Hover over the Thaumaturge "label" and it will clearly tell you that the Thaumaturge "is a master at harnessing arcane power to rain damage and destruction down on foes".
    Additionally, look at the feats themselves. They reflect that. If you look at the old CW build guides (from back in the day when people could be bothered with CW guides because there was a point), the roles were very clear, based on the feat path taken. For the renegade you'll see "create opportunites", which is basically support.
    So yeah, you even got the order right. The paths are "controller, damage dealer, support", and I do have a point.

    The key you're missing each time is "being relevant" and "being wanted". The things the CW can do *does* have an effect, and you might think that they're very useful, but you're pretty much on your own if you think they're useful enough to be relevant or wanted.

    The whole issue is that since mod 12, end-game meta parties have been only too happy to form without a CW, and they're pretty much not missing icy terrain, steal time or oppressive force enough wish they had taken a CW along.
    Honestly, reading your post, you seem to be unaware of that.
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,219Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    I honestly agree with what you said above. I'd honestly be surprised if Cryptic did anything drastic to Wizard's, but they do need to give them something more akin to how they adjusted Warlocks!

    But yea they clearly upset many, as Oppressor for MoF became the single higher damage dealer, cause they completely ignored the Control tree! Most want Thaumaturge retake it's proper role of being the TOP feat path for damage, and they'd also like to see Renegade or Wizard's support role Enhanced or Improved upon a little bit as well.

    I'd love to see them extended the # of stacks of Arcane all Wizard's are given out by 2 from 5 to 7 at maximum. Though I still think they require adjusting Thaumaturge & Renegade so they properly put them back in their roles as DPS or Support by enhancing them in some way.

    I honestly though don't care what is done - but Wizards clearly need some <3 - they've been neglected far too long.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • kriptical1kriptical1 Posts: 284Member Arc User
    An aside. How can crowd control be brought back to viability without making /assist a fundamental function in game?

    I don’t have an answer to this
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,501Member Arc User
    > @kriptical1 said:
    > An aside. How can crowd control be brought back to viability without making /assist a fundamental function in game?
    >
    > I don’t have an answer to this

    It already is viable. Almost all of the mobs in the game respond to CC, and CW has two powerful and fast-acting sources of AoE hard CC (Icy Terrain with Icy Veins feated and Oppressive Force). Control strength bonuses already scale very well; the problem is that they aren’t at all necessary.

    Unless Cryptic decides to bring back swarms of cc’able trash mobs that take several rotations to kill, the meta isn’t going to change in that regard.
    Sacrilege - SW
    Contagion - DC
    Testament - CW
    Pestilence - HR
    Dominion - OP

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 2,525Member Arc User
    CW's are about 10% or so behind other classes and it is mostly due to needing to build up our stacks.

    Here are a few thoughts on how to reduce the way a CW stacks works.

    Modify drop the Arcane Mastery. Instead of it requiring 5 stacks to reach 15% damage buff, make it so that it only takes 3 stacks and at 5% damage buff per a stack.

    Chilling Presence - when a target is chilled the CW has X% damage bonus against chilled targets and frozen targets have 2x the damage bonus from chilling presence. The ability to freeze targets come from IV and Icy Terrain - no other way to freeze targets.

    Update the Thaum Feat Transcended Master to increase Arcane Mastery damage by .5% per a stack.

    Just these simple updates with improve the CW damage as we would would require less time of a build up to reach max damage potential and get a small damage buff from Arcane Mastery stacks by going Thaum path.


    Another simple way to buff a CW damage is simply buff our weapon damage. That should help out as well.




  • gohaken#5114 gohaken Posts: 67Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    I would like to see:

    * Thaumaturge being improved (either in fixing mechanics or in an overhaul) to be the primary DPS tree, including having better interactions with MoF/smolder than it does now so it's not just an SS buff.

    * Renegade path getting updated so Abyss of Chaos contributes more damage scaling to the buffs and such of the group, and yes an improvement to the capstone to make it less of an "all or nothing" contribution to support. Even if it retained some form of randomness/Chaos theme to its mechanic, which is nice from a story perspective.

    Would also be nice with Renegade if either or both of Phantasmal Destruction or Chilling Advantage were completely swapped out for abilities that either buff the party/instance or debuff the enemies. Would make CW an even bigger contribution in a support role, and particularly in the case of Chilling Advantage would remove some redundancy with Uncertain Allegiance (basically keep the group support version, ditch the solo buff version).


    Then we'd have: Oppressor as Hybrid DPS and Control specialist, Thaumaturge as Primary DPS, and Renegade as Full Support.

    And since the extra/new support feat would be at rank 4 and/or 5 of the Renegade tree in this scenario, the class balance wouldn't get tilted -too- far towards CW support because people wouldn't be able to take those feats at all (if rank 5) or more than 1 point (if rank 4) while also going all the way up through Controlled Momentum in Oppressor.

    -Gohaken

    . 404 CW Not Found . -- Compleat Guide to the Full Support M.o.F.

    (work in progress)

    ** Click link for: PDF version.

    ** Click link for: Google Doc version.
  • shockerizershockerizer Posts: 59Member Arc User
    Thought I would chime in. I spent a great deal of time in the Neverwinter area at PAX West and I have to disagree with the assessment that lukejones is saying. I agree that the information is one way. We don't hear their plans.

    I spoke at length with the main developers and they are very aware of the CW issues and the way the community feels. I expect to see some major changes in the next 2 mods. Things are looking up!

    Just my 2 cents and my experience talking directly with the game devs.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 236Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Thought I would chime in. I spent a great deal of time in the Neverwinter area at PAX West and I have to disagree with the assessment that lukejones is saying. I agree that the information is one way. We don't hear their plans.

    I spoke at length with the main developers and they are very aware of the CW issues and the way the community feels. I expect to see some major changes in the next 2 mods. Things are looking up!

    Just my 2 cents and my experience talking directly with the game devs.

    Ok, I'll do a quick review:
    - We got nerfed to the ground 3 years ago
    - They've nothing to help the CW class in all that time
    - When they finally released "tough content" in mod 12, we were in the bottom of the barrel, unwanted, with TRs and SWs.
    - Now, we're at the very bottom of that barrel, all by ourselves.

    But now, you've talked to the DEVs, and they've told you they're very aware of the CW problem, and over the next 2 mods things will look up?

    What's that? Another year from now?
    Of course the DEVs are aware of the bad CW situation, particularly noticeable over the last 3 mods - but what have they done about it?
    Why not take a look at the list of patch changes over the last year, and see where DEVs have *really* been putting their priorities and efforts. That's what's real. That's what matters.

    If I were a DEV at PAX West and I got cornered by somebody asking what they're doing about CWs, and the sorry truth was so obvious, I wonder what kinds of answers I'd give. The best I could do would be to make some vague promises "over the next mod or two", pretty much a year away, when that conversation is long forgotten.

    Make no mistake, when the DEVs got rid of entity procs (a while ago, when CW could actually enjoy a little fun with lightning), they made a compensatory adjustment to SpellStorm, and then quickly nerfed it to ensure they left CWs way back where they originally were. Not only that, it was in knowledge that no parties are after spell storms anyway, and you're pretty much forced to be a MoF to get a run.
    It demonstrated how quickly and easily they could bring a little happiness, if they had any inclination whatsoever.

    Treat yourself to reading those patch notes since mod 12, and see exactly see DEVs have been prioritising their efforts, in full knowledge of how bad things have been for CWs. If they're truly interested in helping the class, the things they've actually been working on defy belief.
    C'mon man, a "couple of mistakes", and TRs and SWs are finally happy, but this class is the one class they've been absolutely certain to "wring out any exploits from", and worked hard to keep it down where it is.

    So, that's where I remain - with defied believe. Even if things will be "better in a year", what's you're reason to be playing CW today - where instead of showing the CW any minute level of joy, they -
    - Fix issues with some achievement labels that aren't working.
    - Fix double pop up notifications
    - Make sure that withdraw buttons properly disable
    - Make AH search cooldowns less restrictive
    - Adjust tooltips
    - Adjust leaver penalty descriptions to warn it's account-wide.
    - etc etc etc

    You get the picture? All the time that they're aware of CW pain, these sorts of things are where they're actually putting their effort.
    There are certainly big problems in the entire Neverwinter class structure. Their class balances are so screwed that the powerful classes are bored with the content (bad gaming experience) and the discriminated classes are frustrated with not being wanted (even worse gaming experience). I don't know if you've noticed how badly online numbers have been dropping in Neverwinter.
    The worst joke on how fundamental game design has gone so wrong, is the 3DPS/1Tank/1Healer random queue for advanced endgame runs. Game design is completely out of touch with how parties actually make the best of the available classes, and CWs do very badly in that mix. So what do the DEVs do? Adjust tool tips, pour effort into "Heart of Fire", tinker with leaver penalties. Yeah, good focus on all the important stuff.

    Sure, they'll be forced into making serious adjustments within a year, and yeah, CWs will be part of what gets adjusted - but you truly, truly believe that any of it will actually have anything to do with them caring about CWs.... well... I really don't know where you get the basis for your faith.
  • frozenfirevrfrozenfirevr Posts: 1,237Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Community Moderator
    @lukejones77, since he mentioned next 2 mods, you could've atleast waited for the M15 preview before that rant considering its mere hours away.
    FrozenFire
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 236Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    @lukejones77, since he mentioned next 2 mods, you could've atleast waited for the M15 preview before that rant considering its mere hours away.

    Ok, if they weren't including the imminent release, the timing changes.

    There's a lot there that isn't about the timing. There's a whole question about how badly changes are needed across the board, and from me real pessimism about how much notice they've taken of CWs, and how much they might, in that future mix.
    Any opinions about that, Frozen Fire - any reason to have a little faith?
  • frozenfirevrfrozenfirevr Posts: 1,237Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Community Moderator
    edited September 2018
    > @lukejones77 said:
    > @lukejones77, since he mentioned next 2 mods, you could've atleast waited for the M15 preview before that rant considering its mere hours away.
    >
    > Ok, if they weren't including the imminent release, the timing changes.
    >
    > There's a lot there that isn't about the timing. There's a whole question about how badly changes are needed across the board, and from me real pessimism about how much notice they've taken of CWs, and how much they might, in that future mix.
    > Any opinions about that, Frozen Fire - any reason to have a little faith?

    Reworking a class is not the same as changing a tooltip or fixing an item. You're comparing constructing a building to fixing a door or window. A bad rework could have massive implications.

    While CWs aren't in demand because of lack of any specialization, they're not in a bad spot either and can handle anything thrown at them.
    FrozenFire
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 2,525Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    The last few mods all the changes made to the CW hurt the Thaum DPS builds. Since mod 13 rarely do you see Thaum DPS. Most now run Oppressor simply to get into groups for the added 10% damage from Control Momentum. And many run MoF for the added debuff from this paragon path. If you are lucky or one of the top tier CW you can get into CR regularly. CW are a joke though compared to a GWF, HR, and SW. The reasoning is that CW don't get many self buff that multiply with with other buffs. This is where the other class outshine the CW. SW is right there with CW but at least the SW has the Templock build and currently the debuff bug that allows them to be good enough to get into content.

    CW are ok damage wise, IMO the CW is where all DPS should be brought to. By doing this the game would actually get a bit more challenging due to every DPS doing less damage and not more damage. If the CW is brought up to other DPS, than the game will become even easier and that is not what this game needs.

    What does the CW currently have for bugs? I thought most were resolved with mod 14.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 236Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    > @lukejones77 said:

    > @lukejones77, since he mentioned next 2 mods, you could've atleast waited for the M15 preview before that rant considering its mere hours away.

    >

    > Ok, if they weren't including the imminent release, the timing changes.

    >

    > There's a lot there that isn't about the timing. There's a whole question about how badly changes are needed across the board, and from me real pessimism about how much notice they've taken of CWs, and how much they might, in that future mix.

    > Any opinions about that, Frozen Fire - any reason to have a little faith?



    Reworking a class is not the same as changing a tooltip or fixing an item. You're comparing constructing a building to fixing a door or window. A bad rework could have massive implications.



    While CWs aren't in demand because of lack of any specialization, they're not in a bad spot either and can handle anything thrown at them.

    I'm not talking about a rework, and you don't have to rework a class to put CWs in a much better place.

    The "lack of specialization" is that CWs are 3rd rate DPS and 2nd rate buff/debuff.
    You remember Robert Gutschera's twitch where he talked about all the levers available to them for making adjustments within classes? It's quite correct, and the DEVs demonstrated it when they killed off CW lightning as a consequence of killing off entity procs. Quick adjustment to SpellStorm crits, and another to nerfing them. Consequence? They explicitly put CWs back where they want them, and there's next to zero Spell Storms in TONG anyway - virtually every CW there a MoF.

    Slight adjustments can make a very large difference, as in TRs and SoD. It's a quick, simple and fair approach to adjusting.
    Consistently over modules and years, DEVs choose to do nothing to help CWs, and they're now the most unwanted class.
    If the DEVs truly want to help CWs they do not need to wait 2 modules to bring a little joy.



  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,219Member Arc User
    edited October 2018

    @lukejones77, since he mentioned next 2 mods, you could've atleast waited for the M15 preview before that rant considering its mere hours away.

    Yea I mean I'm far more empathic toward's @lukejones77 position because he does at least have a strong basis for his opinion, even if it's a little or a lot stronger than 'some' others in this thread.

    I mean I'd be surprised to see any changes to Wizard's in MOD 15, or if their are, I'd think it be more akin to when the revisited Warlock. So that likely means any changes will likely be due diligence work on the MoF Oppressor feat path, or possibly a few lessor changes to MoF in general to round out that Paragon or Path options.

    Because @frozenfirevr as you noted, having made adjustments to the Opressor MoF change in MOD 14, and since we're now seeing after each change, it is then followed up with a revision / adjustments to revise. So I'd think we'll at least see a revision to MoF at the very least. Still I think that is a good thing for sure! Still it likely means we'll likely have to wait till MOD 16 perhaps at least till Spell Storm or Thaumaturge &/or Renegade is likely adjusted. Though I agree with much of what @mebengalsfan wrote, I disagree that all other classes should be brought down to CW DPS range, because then we'd be even further from Class Balance that we are today.

    I still believe if they made a slight improvement to some other Warlock path's, even though they are in a much better place than Wizard's are today... ...still Wizard's will need some SERIOUS LOVE and think with a few MINOR changes to Thaumaturge &/or Renegade or possibly 1 or 2 other MINOR tweaks Wizard's when adjusted, provided that Hunter Ranger's get the Careful Attack BUG fixed, and a slightly smaller BUFF to Warlock's then we'd like see CLASS BALANCE being achievable!

    Who know maybe they decided to indeed give all Arcane Wizard's 7 stacks instead of 5? :o

    Regardless how you feel I think someone else above was very clear that Wizard's, especially Spell Storm if not all Wizard's are -at least- 10% behind any other class. I mean they take damage far easier that most classes, so let's ignore Guardian or Paladin's immunity opportunities, or Cleric, Warlock's healing abilities and far greater BUFFs, or the self BUFFING expert the GWF. Skill has nothing to do with the argument especially when their damage is far less that most other classes and the AoE / DoT regardless if your MoF or Spell Storm often never makes up for it in Dungeons because you need the High Single Target Damage.

    Despite some claiming it has to due with INEPT Wizard's not knowing the class, I also thought it was very fair for him to say that was completely UNFAIR and BIAS if something is thinking that. So good for LUKE!

    "Even if it takes more skill and care to play CW than some other classes, to pick a word like "inept" is just bad." @lukejones77

    My goodness just go to the Stronghold and take a 15k GWF, Guardian Fighter, Paladin, Cleric, TR, Warlock, or HR and you'll like have a little challenge but can defeat the BHE (Giants) likely all by yourself. Try with a 15k Wizard and you're likely to die 97x out of 100 attempts regardless what powers or abilities you use. Now sure you could use your Shield to offer you more protection, but if you thought it was already taking an incredibly long time to even get one giant down to 50%, and if you even got that far you'd likely be dead as they rush you and one shot you, or if you had a shield exhaust it then you have one less offensive ability to use, still as Wizard you'll spent 75% of your time teleporting, dodging, while often running so as not to be Hit that you will spend even fighting!

    The only way a Wizard 'might' have HOPE of doing it by themselves is if they gave themselves self a slight advantage with a Unparelled Feytouched. But having a R13 Weapon Enchantment isn't something I'd expect from any 15k player at least until they were closer to 16.5-18k I think is a more fair assessment. As I'd only expect a 15k Wizard or any other class at 15k to maybe only have a R10-R11 at best and they'd be *lucky* to have a R12 at just 15k.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 236Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    On the point of where DEV heads are actually at for Mod 15/16, I'm far more inclined to listen to what Lead Developer Thomas Foss specifically said in a 50 minute Nova interview here:



    This is what the DEV leads will say, when they're not trying to explain themselves to a disappointed CW.
    I love that this interview was done, as we've finally got some decent DEV info - not that I found it heartening.

    All kinds of stuff there, but what did I pick up relevant to CWs?
    - There will be a renewed focus on PvP. This is traditionally a disaster for PvE impact, and adjustments never ended well for CWs.
    - On the subject of balance? Nothing.
    - On the subject of CW changes, or any kind of love? Nothing.

    The most interesting comment from Foss was his disappointment that at the time of NW launch, they had to have a "Control Wizard", rather than just a "Wizard". Really interesting comment, clearly saying that he was disappointed that they had to focus wizards on Control.
    The historical verbal tussle between DPS classes is that typically others don't want CWs to be in the DPS mix and insist that the class is meant to focus on "Control".
    The flaw here is that Neverwinter follows the latest release patterns from the Wizards of the Coast updates - basically each new module (Ravenloft etc) follows the owners the D&D.
    In proper D&D, if you keep things up to date, the Wizard is not a Control Wizard - not for 3 years.
    Essentially, Cryptic created Wizards as "Control Wizards" at launch because 4th edition was the flavour of the day. That whole bad concept was introduced to D&D in it's 4th edition (the least loved of all D&D editions), and died with 4th edition.
    The entire issue around wizards and "Control", is a defunct relic of D&D 4th edition that Crytic have failed to update as they followed all the other D&D updates.
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,219Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    OK seems they redid many changes to several classes - so there is considerable things to REVIEW now - and how it relates to overall Class balance or how it will at least effect Wizard's. There may have actually been FAR more changes that many had even suspected, even the Trapper with the Serpent changes goal was to better BUFF, damage for classes who change stances often, and yes even Warlock's got some changes as did all classes. Some positive, others may be a little less popular, but hopefully in time it will, result in more balanced classes:

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242641/m15-control-wizard-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1242642/m15-scourge-warlock-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242643/m15-oathbound-paladin-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242646/m15-guardian-fighter-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242645/m15-devoted-cleric-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242644/m15-hunter-ranger-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242595/m15-trickster-rogue-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242640/m15-great-weapon-fighter-class-changes

    So suggest everyone at least READ through all the proposed changes though they may change based on FEEDBACK provided to those thread's on PREVIEW above.

    So much to REVIEW though... :o
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 236Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited September 2018
    strathkin said:

    OK seems they redid many changes to several classes - so there is considerable things to REVIEW now - and how it relates to overall Class balance or how it will at least effect Wizard's. There may have actually been FAR more changes that many had even suspected, even the Trapper with the Serpent changes goal was to better BUFF, damage for classes who change stances often, and yes even Warlock's got some changes as did all classes. Some positive, others may be a little less popular, but hopefully in time it will, result in more balanced classes:

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242641/m15-control-wizard-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1235687/official-m13-scourge-warlock-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242643/m15-oathbound-paladin-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242646/m15-guardian-fighter-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242645/m15-devoted-cleric-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242644/m15-hunter-ranger-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242595/m15-trickster-rogue-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242640/m15-great-weapon-fighter-class-changes

    So suggest everyone at least READ through all the proposed changes though they may change based on FEEDBACK provided to those thread's on PREVIEW above.

    So much to REVIEW though... :o

    Wow, looks a lot like the post I've been waiting over a year for! :)
    The last time I saw a list of CW changes that long, most of them left the game. This list goes in the opposite direction. I particularly like that they're reversing timings on powers in what has become a much faster game - especially the delay in Steal Time, where casting time feels like it's the CW that time is being stolen from, rather than the mob ;)

    To be honest, I don't actually care if they increase damage, or not, and feel that of all DPS classes, the CW was where it should be, relative to the content.
    What's important though, is the relative changes across the classes, and parties starting to value having CWs on board. If the relative adjustments in DPS across the various classes pan out in practice they way they appear at casual glance, this could be very good.

    I'll absolutely applaud the DEVs on taking a fair look at CWs, if they adjust even half the levers they plan to for this next mod, and apologise to shokerizer for lack of faith ;)

  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 2,525Member Arc User

    strathkin said:

    OK seems they redid many changes to several classes - so there is considerable things to REVIEW now - and how it relates to overall Class balance or how it will at least effect Wizard's. There may have actually been FAR more changes that many had even suspected, even the Trapper with the Serpent changes goal was to better BUFF, damage for classes who change stances often, and yes even Warlock's got some changes as did all classes. Some positive, others may be a little less popular, but hopefully in time it will, result in more balanced classes:

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242641/m15-control-wizard-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1235687/official-m13-scourge-warlock-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242643/m15-oathbound-paladin-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242646/m15-guardian-fighter-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242645/m15-devoted-cleric-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242644/m15-hunter-ranger-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242595/m15-trickster-rogue-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242640/m15-great-weapon-fighter-class-changes

    So suggest everyone at least READ through all the proposed changes though they may change based on FEEDBACK provided to those thread's on PREVIEW above.

    So much to REVIEW though... :o

    Wow, looks a lot like the post I've been waiting over a year for! :)
    The last time I saw a list of CW changes that long, most of them left the game. This list goes in the opposite direction. I particularly like that they're reversing timings on powers in what has become a much faster game - especially the delay in Steal Time, where casting time feels like it's the CW that time is being stolen from, rather than the mob ;)

    To be honest, I don't actually care if they increase damage, or not, and feel that of all DPS classes, the CW was where it should be, relative to the content.
    What's important though, is the relative changes across the classes, and parties starting to value having CWs on board. If the relative adjustments in DPS across the various classes pan out in practice they way they appear at casual glance, this could be very good.

    I'll absolutely applaud the DEVs on taking a fair look at CWs, if they adjust even half the levers they plan to for this next mod, and apologise to shokerizer for lack of faith ;)

    The issue I see is that the dmg has dropped and buffing is not any better now than before. Groups running content will go with a Templock to replace the DO and a HR Buffer as that class offers better buffing than a CW. This leaves the CW as a DPS and given what the fixes are doing it means no go for the CW. Making the Oppressor or Renegade builds viable for CoDG. Meaning once again the CW in the pre-view current state will be nothing more than a 2nd rate buffer and as for a DPS, a joke when even compared to a DO.

    I know it is early in the build but I honestly don't feel sound with the direction of the Wizard class ATM. I was talking to someone who played CW since the game launched on PS4 and he has simply had enough and is done. Many more who seen the post were running DO and a CW or a TR and most of those players are also hanging it up.

    I have a gut feeling being a CW in mod 15 is going to be the lowest point for CWs in this game, properly even lower than what a SW was when mod 10 landed.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 1,957Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    I have a gut feeling being a CW in mod 15 is going to be the lowest point for CWs in this game, properly even lower than what a SW was when mod 10 landed.

    Can I get that spicy Mod 15 CW nerf for my GF?

    It kills two birds with one stone as well, as Foss gets his "nerfed" DPS GF.

  • shockerizershockerizer Posts: 59Member Arc User

    strathkin said:

    OK seems they redid many changes to several classes - so there is considerable things to REVIEW now - and how it relates to overall Class balance or how it will at least effect Wizard's. There may have actually been FAR more changes that many had even suspected, even the Trapper with the Serpent changes goal was to better BUFF, damage for classes who change stances often, and yes even Warlock's got some changes as did all classes. Some positive, others may be a little less popular, but hopefully in time it will, result in more balanced classes:

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242641/m15-control-wizard-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1235687/official-m13-scourge-warlock-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242643/m15-oathbound-paladin-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242646/m15-guardian-fighter-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242645/m15-devoted-cleric-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242644/m15-hunter-ranger-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242595/m15-trickster-rogue-class-changes

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242640/m15-great-weapon-fighter-class-changes

    So suggest everyone at least READ through all the proposed changes though they may change based on FEEDBACK provided to those thread's on PREVIEW above.

    So much to REVIEW though... :o

    Wow, looks a lot like the post I've been waiting over a year for! :)
    The last time I saw a list of CW changes that long, most of them left the game. This list goes in the opposite direction. I particularly like that they're reversing timings on powers in what has become a much faster game - especially the delay in Steal Time, where casting time feels like it's the CW that time is being stolen from, rather than the mob ;)

    To be honest, I don't actually care if they increase damage, or not, and feel that of all DPS classes, the CW was where it should be, relative to the content.
    What's important though, is the relative changes across the classes, and parties starting to value having CWs on board. If the relative adjustments in DPS across the various classes pan out in practice they way they appear at casual glance, this could be very good.

    I'll absolutely applaud the DEVs on taking a fair look at CWs, if they adjust even half the levers they plan to for this next mod, and apologise to shokerizer for lack of faith ;)

    Hehe thanks Luke. I had long conversations with Tom and the guy in charge of CW's. I know what you are saying about telling me what I wanted to hear, but I am a fanboy really and wasn't critical about their decision so they were not trying to shoo me off. I spent hours in there and I tell ya, everyone who is working on NW is great. They love the game and try hard to stay withing the AD&D guidelines.

    I am very excited for the future.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 2,525Member Arc User
    I'm not all that excited about the current CW on mod 15. I hope the devs do further tweaking to the class, because as it stands now we have basically somewhat 3 builds to run full DPS, hybrid and full buffer; though the full DPS build is only a hair better than the Oppressor hybrid builds.

    With mod 15 it looks like Renegade new feat makes that path the only really viable build for CW. I'm sorry but that is not how it should be for CWs. We really should have more options with Thaum and Oppressor capstones being improved.

  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Posts: 997Member Arc User

    I'm not all that excited about the current CW on mod 15. I hope the devs do further tweaking to the class, because as it stands now we have basically somewhat 3 builds to run full DPS, hybrid and full buffer; though the full DPS build is only a hair better than the Oppressor hybrid builds.

    With mod 15 it looks like Renegade new feat makes that path the only really viable build for CW. I'm sorry but that is not how it should be for CWs. We really should have more options with Thaum and Oppressor capstones being improved.

    Although you are correct that it should be like that, the reality is that meta will always demand someone who contributes the most to the party via buffs. Might as well make Renegade path, that already people utilize, be that one specific all-in-one solution.
    I say this because other classes have gone away with the same ideal for years now without getting neither balanced-out, nor nerfed, nor their classes reworked to make more sense. And as soon as someone proposes anything they start mocking since they are unable to understand that the game is not only about them.
    So as it goes in the traditional NWO fashion, let one class get super buffed and another class super nerfed. Long were CWs super nerfed and long were the CWs pretty much the only class, at least from my perspective, that really cared for BALANCE of classes.
    Since damage numbers is all they care about, let them have it. No need to stress out with people who do not want to listen to reason. And, besides, CWs need some break time from all that fixing of issues, too. This might be it.
    True Neutral
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 2,525Member Arc User
    The mod 15 update I like that there is some changes coming and opening up the class a bit more. What I dislike is that the CW has simply gone from one paragon feat path to another and once again it is moving to another paragon feat path.

    The difference is that with mod prior to mod 12 and during mod 13/14 Renegade was always a 2nd option for us and we had either Thaum or Opp along with being able to play as Renegade if we wanted to. That gave CWs options.

    Due to the new feat in the Renegade tree the other options become less viable and Renegade becomes the only real viable option making Thaum and Opp not really needed any more. Sad really that the devs are putting the CW into a pigeonhole when other classes are starting to expand more. I simply disagree with this move because it is going against what they want to do.

    The devs should definitely listen to Sharp and other players that can provide honest feedback to make the two paragon paths and three paragon feat paths viable.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 236Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited October 2018


    Hehe thanks Luke. I had long conversations with Tom and the guy in charge of CW's. I know what you are saying about telling me what I wanted to hear, but I am a fanboy really and wasn't critical about their decision so they were not trying to shoo me off. I spent hours in there and I tell ya, everyone who is working on NW is great. They love the game and try hard to stay withing the AD&D guidelines.

    I am very excited for the future.

    I'd hold back on the excitement.

    Looks like a big nerf to chilling presence, a boost to arcane presence. Not clear that the CW will be regarded any better for party selection than our poor state of affairs the last few mods.
    You could see some good boss hitting damage - much better than what we're used to, but probably not significant enough to get picked relative to other boss killing classes.

    The classic stinger? The DEVs did a ninja nerf to us with The Big Damage Meta - Aura of Courage. They stopped DoTs working with AoC. They went about this in a classic way, so classes like GWF still get full benefit, and we get a massive hole in our DPS.
    If there was anything the DEVs could have done to promote that sea of yellow, blue and red you see when you check what classes are doing the latest new run, and absolutely minimise any purple - this is it. The DEVs did this after the dev Balanced left the company. You'll love CW much more in PvP, but the vast majority of CWs left probably shouldn't be hoping for too much.

    They published all the other changes they brought on preview, but slid this AoC one in very quietly. Really strange, and really hard see why they would do this, unless somebody in that DEV team simply has it in for CWs.
    I mean, seriously, why hit CWs like that? It was a very deliberate and specific change, unfair enough that they kept it very quiet. For 3 years its like the DEVs are so scared of CWs somehow rising like they did in the distant history of the game, that they go out of their way to keep the class depressed.

    So, damage-wise, don't expect to get a DPS run with meta/AoC parties, and don't expect any joy in the changes getting in as a buffer.
    Unless something undiscovered comes to light, expect to be even further out of the meta than before.
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