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Ideas for CW Rework/Balance

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  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,219Member Arc User
    edited August 2018

    So, now that I'm into this discussion, I want to come through a few things with the base concept: "Some skills are so good, they make CW bad." Other examples are known as well, but the most obvious is.

    Chilling Presence: This skill is not just limiting the CW options, it's flawed design on it's core and needs a complete redo.

    -Chill stacks are basically control effects that Freezes when reaches 6. And while in a normal design environment higher control means less damage, this skill goes on full opposite. If the CW's best damage option goes with a free full control over anything, one of it gets rebalanced. In short, they never fix the ice control aspect of the class as long as we have Chilling presence.

    -It's just primitive. You have an icy veins feat, set down an icy terrain and bam, everything is frozen, +96% damage. It's just a trivial combination that you don't have to practice, just makes Chilling presence even more overpowered and icy veins to one of the best burst sources. And even when you are not using icy, it's a plain effect passive that just so aggressively good that most people just don't care to test out whether other ways are viable or if they do, they find out that the obvious way is the right.

    -You can only obliterate it or it remains auto-use. Because it's binary, it either gives enough damage for you, or not.

    Of course, this means that CW gets a big nerf, so damage compenation is necessary, and of course, if we clear the obstacles to make CC relevant again... the devs should make it too. Like, if the boss has to be immune to stun, let the chill stack up to like 20, so the slow part can be useful (and without CP, don't generate insane damage output).

    Well respect your opinion, I'd think your in a small to moderate minority, or misunderstanding a few things. You seem to be advocating for Nerfing the Frozen control Aspect and it's mostly used to control trash mobs. Wizard are one DPS class that could use a slight BUFF, and sadly aren't viewed as giving enough BUFFs to assist the party. Since Control / Control-Resist doesn't even help Wizard's slow & resist Boss / Mini-Boss effects | they need to fix it so at least a Wizard can slow even a Boss / Mini-Boss slightly, or more greatly resist control effects. Still were not the only class a little hurting right now. Hunter Ranger's aren't in a great place either cause of the BUG mostly with Careful Attack. Warlock's they improved a little after the heavy Mod 12 Nerf, while their better off that they were, some still feel they need slightly more. But now you're almost always certain to see a GWF, GF, 2x DC, & Pally.

    Quick thought: It be nice if Class balance focused less on changing powers, feat's directly.
    ▪ Be nice to see most first focused on buff/debuff in Class: Mechanic, TAB features, or Capstone exclusively.
    ╘ by add/subtracting small Control &/or Damage buff/debuff - class balance be within reach.
    ♠ Wizard (e.g.) is extend Arcane Mastery by 2 stacks &/or a +1% damage per Stack.
    ♠ Hunter (e.g.) is extend Grasping Roots Weak +4% dmg | Strong +7% dmg.

    One other suggestion to perhaps encourage Diversity:
    Sure don't limit Private Party's: Yet no more than 1 of each class, for each 5 player threshold.
    ▪ A Party of 05 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 1 of each class.
    ▪ A Party of 10 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 2 of each class.
    ▪ A Party of 25 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 5 of each class.

    FYI: A lot of thought made to how power's, or individual feat's work: changing those is ugly.
    ╘ it also requires more time to change more individual powers, feat's, while introducing more bugs.
    ╘ increases should also be more gradual or made in slower/smaller corrections - not huge - but incremental.

    Class balance be far easier: Choose 1 of - Class Mechanic's, TAB abilities, or Capstone Feats

    Also it's often far better to make far more slow, small, and gradual updates more regularly.
    ╘ if they did that class balance might actually become a lot more realistic!

    But I am greatful for a few difference's of opinion, regardless if I agree or disagree, as it is encouraging more to write, and thus encouraging more idea's or the debate to grow. It's only thru discussion we all learn or discover perhaps something new. o:)
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 844Member Arc User
    edited August 2018
    @strathkin

    All devs need to do is giving SW and CW some love in the way of a simple yet good enough damage increase so they're closer in dps to other classes.

    As for SW, it depends massively on Bug of Hadar which no other class can do and even with that it still is weaker than other strikers, that speaks volumes as of what the state of the class is when it comes to damage potential. 99.99% top tier warlocks rely heavily on Bug of Hadar. We need that bug patched, a few tweaks based on our very specific issues, a bit of extra damage and we are good to go.

    @balanced#2849 next time you post on SW threads it would be awesome if you let us know whether you plan on patching Bug of Hadar at all.

    @slysnow#2290 "There are too many ways to render control useless. Hence the numerous jokes of dropping "control" from the cw name." Without counting pvp TR as it can comfortably wipe the floor with any class, your statement is correct in the sense that Unparalleled Elven + cc resistance boons: CW and SW pvp worst nightmare xD
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,219Member Arc User
    edited August 2018

    @strathkin

    All devs need to do is giving SW and CW some love in the way of a simple yet good enough damage increase so they're closer in dps to other classes.

    As for SW, it depends massively on Bug of Hadar which no other class can do and even with that it still is weaker than other strikers, that speaks volumes as of what the state of the class is when it comes to damage potential. 99.99% top tier warlocks rely heavily on Bug of Hadar. We need that bug patched, a few tweaks based on our very specific issues, a bit of extra damage and we are good to go.

    @balanced#2849 next time you post on SW threads it would be awesome if you let us know whether you plan on patching Bug of Hadar at all.

    @slysnow#2290 "There are too many ways to render control useless. Hence the numerous jokes of dropping "control" from the cw name." Without counting pvp TR as it can comfortably wipe the floor with any class, your statement is correct in the sense that Unparalleled Elven + cc resistance boons: CW and SW pvp worst nightmare xD

    Yea. I admit there are far too many ways to render more control / control resist useless; especially since their are no gains that make even a negligible difference to a Boss / Mini-Boss. It's why most Wizard's had abandoned the Valindra SET, Will-O-Wisp Companion, or others with Base Buff or % Control / % Control Resist improvements to inactive companions; or a bank slot if they haven't even just converted them to RP; or disbanded them.

    Though we've also have some new artifact belts/cloaks others having been moving into as well; while they have some higher buff values in the new artifact gear, the SET bonus was more generous on older 405 belts/cloaks. Not sure how long that trend may continue though.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • kriptical1kriptical1 Posts: 284Member Arc User
    edited August 2018
    it’s good to see a concerted voice emerging that the class as a whole needs attention. Not ss, nor mof, the whole class..

    It’s late, so I’ll just leave this: when it comes to developers the apprehension exists that Silence = Consent....never a winning strategy, yet reasonable given the state of things. So it’s good to see some very reasonable and positive suggestions tabled and I hope things continue.
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 168Member Arc User
    strathkin said:



    Well respect your opinion, I'd think your in a tiny minority, you seem to not like Wizard's, and seem to misunderstand a few things. You seem to be advocating for Nerfing one of the worse DPS classes in the game, and almost a class nobody is playing in end game dungeons anymore--several have made that fact at least very clear! Still Hunter Ranger's aren't in a great place either cause of the BUG with Careful Attack. Warlock's they improved a little after the heavy Mod 12 Nerf, while their better off that they were, some still feel they need slightly more.

    My opinion might be a tiny minority, but as written, Chilling presence highly limits the CW's design. It can't make chill control useful without making it overpowered, locks out synergy focused passives in MoF just by raw power and makes up for a combination of powerhouse effects that normally should not be that trivial to do.

    Of course, if that would be the ONLY change that CW gets, I would oppose it, because the class overall power-level and the state of control at the moment would make CW's useless. But, IF a rebalance happens with the class, balancing up the overall damage is pretty easy, making the class diverse and fun is the hard part. Making Chilling Presence a different passive can encourage diversity, at least on the MoF side.
    strathkin said:

    Yet I'm then confused by your sudden desire to REFOCUS the conversation saying Wizard's Far Spell should be abolished and all Wizard's ranged powers should be extended.

    I'm confused too, because I did not do that. You focused back to Far Spell and you wanted me to refocus to Far spell. That why you wrote me a PM and I answered that and now your did here exactly what you claim I did.

    Far spell has a ton of problems (stated before) and I've stated some suggestions: Make it a Heroic feat, make it to 1-2. row in Renegade/Oppressor, make it do damage AND increase lenght or remove and add +10 feet for skills. Any of that is fine for me.

    By the way, the "abolish and make everything +10 feet" was YOUR suggestion and I've agreed with it as like you stated that every other class has a 30-60 feet advantage and you think CW's should have compensation. So that sudden "it should be 80, because everyone is 80" is just contradicting yourself.

    And about Aspect of the Falcon: That's a passive and it does give damage. +1% damage for every 5 feet you are from the target. Yeah, if Far spell would've given damage it would be a different skill and as you can read on the original comment, that was something I mentioned to do with it.

  • vordaynvordayn Posts: 1,269Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 2018

    A few suggestions and ideas if the devs decide to ever rework/balance CW. :wink:

    I've put my thoughts down next to your comments: Agree, New comment, Neutral, Disagree.

    Basic
    • Increase all damage of powers by ~35%. I would advocate increasing the base damage. Not sure what value, but I would think around 20% would be a good place to start.
    • Remove the if it Crits on the first hit, it will always crit from all powers. Let each hit determine whether its going to crit or not. Its really annoying when you have 97% Crit chance and Cast a non Critting Icy Terrain. Yes, this makes sense.
    • Channeling powers e.g. Steal Time should also proc weapon enchantments for every component. Steal Time should also do damage while channeling and not just at the end.
    Mechanics:
    • Arcane Stacks: Increase the damage per stack from 3% to 4%. It takes a while to build up arcane stacks, so I agree but, I would like at least 5% per stack.

    At Wills:
    • Chilling Cloud: Widen the 3rd Cast AOE to 10' and increase its target cap which is currently at 3 or something to 5.
    • Storm Pillar: Make this an Encounter like At Will. So its an almost instant Cast Fully Charged Pillar with a small Cooldown of like 3 Seconds. As it is at the moment, its very clunky and situational. Also let the Arcs Crit and widen the Arc AOE to 12' up from 8'. Yes. Or reduce its casting time.
    • Magic Missiles: Let the 3/4/5 hits count as individual hits. At the moment they count as 1 hit when it comes to procing powers. Agreed
    • Projectile Type Powers: Maybe bring back the ability to move while casting them. This would be great.
    Encounters:
    • Entangling Force: Let this be a DoT that works similarly to Conduit of Ice where it can proc things more than once. This will make it more competitive with CoI. Agreed.
    Dailies:
    • Arcane Singularity: Reverse the Target Cap nerf introduced a lots mods ago, put it back up to 15. It is currently at 8. Agreed. Let it also do more than just slightly budge opponents like it does now.
    • Ice Storm: Increase its target cap of 5 to 10. Yes. Target caps don't make sense to me any longer.
    Class Features:
    • Chilling Presence: Decrease the damage per Stack from 2% to 1%. Makes this Feature less mandatory for damage Disagree. It takes some positioning and planning to put and maintain ice stacks, especially for bosses which are better fought at range.
    • Arcane Presence: Increase the amount it allows you to benefit from Arcane Mastery to +50% per Rank Yes.
    • Arcane Powerfield: Lower its tick rate to once every 0.6 seconds and let it last 6 seconds.
    • Storm Fury: Always activates when you are struck. Yes. It is barely (if ever) used the way it is now.
    • Frost Wave: Should be totally reworked. Possibly make it so it increases stats. ie Max HP +3% per rank, deflect chance +2% per rank and life steal chance +2% per rank. This could be interesting, but those stats (with the exception of HP, are not really useful in PvE.
    Feats:
    Oppressor:
    • Shatter Strike: Its a good power than needs a bit of a buff to get it similar to other classes Capstones. Shatter Strike is already the best capstone out of the 3.
    • Suggestion: Increase its 'Shatter Strike' component to deal 65% Weapon Damage and remove the 'control' part of the tooltip. Let the 'Shatter' Component Scale properly like other powers. Also let this ability to be triggered again without having to remove Chill and having to Freeze the targets again.
    • Controlled Momentum: Change the buff to 3/6/9/12/15%.
    • Alacrity: Up its Chance to happen. It seems kinda low when I tried it. I don't use this. It is a waste of a feat. Especially for an end-tier feat. It needs to be changed completely IMO. Maybe something like, "Activating a control power reduces all your cooldowns by 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5 seconds".
    • Cold Infusion: Up its debuff to 2/4/8/10%.
    • Chilling Control: Really bad when you have Icy Veins. Suggestion: Using Sudden Storm grants you 2/4/6/8/10% of your max AP. This would be better than its current effect for sure.
    Thaumaturge:
    • Assailant: The problem with this power is that it doesn't crit and doesn't scale with CA and its not great in AOE situations. Given that the current most current Capstone or near Capstone feats contribute to around 25% of your overall damage, this needs a bit of a rework. Suggestion: To bring back a bit of consistency with CW Powers, it would be nice if this power had a 100% chance to proc against all targets on every hit and tick of powers. I agree that it should crit and scale with buffs. It also should not have a cap limited by the opponent's HP. It should function as our strongest hitting capstone (like Shadow of Demise), thus should not have these limitations. Its damage should be reduced to around ~120% Weapon damage and should be able to Crit and work with CA. It should also be ~70% less effective when used with AOE Powers. I don't think it should be less effective with AoE spells. The game is already inconsistent (or at least vague) when describing powers which are AoE or single target. I would not want this confusion in the mix.
    • Elemental Empowerment: The Creeping Frost element is fine how it is, but the Warped Magics part seems a bit broken, it doesn't scale in the same way Creeping Frost does. Suggestion: Warped Magics should ignore half of the targets resistance and not ignore half of the debuffs on the target, just like the tooltip says. In addition to that, maybe both Creeping Frost and Warped Magics should grant a 1/2/3/4/5% damage buff (damage resistance debuff?)on target that lasts for the duration of the power. As both CP and WM cannot stack, this wont either.
    • Transcendent Master: Kinda useless since Shard and IR have been made unused. Suggestion Increases your Maximum Arcane Stacks by 1/2/3/4/5. This would be great.
    • Far Spell: There is no use for increasing the Range of Powers. Suggestion: Increase the Radius of AOE Powers by 2/4/6/8/10ft. I like the idea of it increasing our ranged powers, but again it mixes up a few powers which should be single target (Icy Rays on the *same* target) and disintegrate I think. I think it should instead also increase the effectiveness of single target powers by 5/10/15/20/25% as well as increasing the range by 2/4/6/8/10ft.
    • Snap Freeze: Really bad. Suggestion: Flip it so its 2/4/6/8/10% more damage vs targets afflicted with chill. Yes. Cold powers should do extra damage to chill-affected targets.
    Renegade:
    • Abyss of Chaos: Should be allowed to Critically Strike and Scale with all buffs just like any other power. Yes, I wholeheartedly agree, to give back some love to the Renegade tree.
    • Unrestrained Chaos: Additionally hitting a target with MoC grants allies 2/4/6/8/10% of their max hp as a shield
    • Energy Recovery: 25% chance on 3rd Cast of Chilling Cloud to give 3 nearby allies 5/10/15/20/25% of their HP as Temp HP.
    Please keep this discussion about CW! :smile:
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • smulchsmulch Posts: 625Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    CW aren't behind by that much to warrant that many changes.
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,716Member Arc User
    On a slight tangent, how the hamster did Far Spell become a sub-topic of discussion? It’s so impossibly niche as to be useless in PvE and should either be replaced or have its function supplemented with a (useful) secondary benefit.
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  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,219Member Arc User
    edited August 2018

    strathkin said:



    Well respect your opinion, I'd think your in a tiny minority, you seem to not like Wizard's, and seem to misunderstand a few things. You seem to be advocating for Nerfing one of the worse DPS classes in the game, and almost a class nobody is playing in end game dungeons anymore--several have made that fact at least very clear! Still Hunter Ranger's aren't in a great place either cause of the BUG with Careful Attack. Warlock's they improved a little after the heavy Mod 12 Nerf, while their better off that they were, some still feel they need slightly more.

    My opinion might be a tiny minority, but as written, Chilling presence highly limits the CW's design. It can't make chill control useful without making it overpowered, locks out synergy focused passives in MoF just by raw power and makes up for a combination of powerhouse effects that normally should not be that trivial to do.

    Of course, if that would be the ONLY change that CW gets, I would oppose it, because the class overall power-level and the state of control at the moment would make CW's useless. But, IF a rebalance happens with the class, balancing up the overall damage is pretty easy, making the class diverse and fun is the hard part. Making Chilling Presence a different passive can encourage diversity, at least on the MoF side.
    strathkin said:

    Yet I'm then confused by your sudden desire to REFOCUS the conversation saying Wizard's Far Spell should be abolished and all Wizard's ranged powers should be extended.

    I'm confused too, because I did not do that. You focused back to Far Spell and you wanted me to refocus to Far spell. That why you wrote me a PM and I answered that and now your did here exactly what you claim I did.

    Far spell has a ton of problems (stated before) and I've stated some suggestions: Make it a Heroic feat, make it to 1-2. row in Renegade/Oppressor, make it do damage AND increase lenght or remove and add +10 feet for skills. Any of that is fine for me.

    By the way, the "abolish and make everything +10 feet" was YOUR suggestion and I've agreed with it as like you stated that every other class has a 30-60 feet advantage and you think CW's should have compensation. So that sudden "it should be 80, because everyone is 80" is just contradicting yourself.

    And about Aspect of the Falcon: That's a passive and it does give damage. +1% damage for every 5 feet you are from the target. Yeah, if Far spell would've given damage it would be a different skill and as you can read on the original comment, that was something I mentioned to do with it.

    ♣ Your 1st commented reply and my response:

    Quick thought: It be nice if Class balance focused less on changing powers, feat's directly.
    ▪ Be nice to see most first focused on buff/debuff in Class: Mechanic, TAB features, or Capstone exclusively.
    ╘ by add/subtracting small Control &/or Damage buff/debuff - class balance be within reach.
    ♠ Wizard (e.g.) Arcane Mastery adds 2 stacks &/or a +1% damage per Stack.


    One other suggestion to perhaps encourage Diversity:
    Sure don't limit Private Party's: Yet no more than 1 of each class, for each 5 player threshold.
    ▪ A Party of 05 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 1 of each class.
    ▪ A Party of 10 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 2 of each class.
    ▪ A Party of 25 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 5 of each class.

    FYI: A lot of thought made to how power's, or individual feat's work: changing those is ugly.
    ╘ it also requires more time to change more individual powers, feat's, while introducing more bugs.
    ╘ increases should also be more gradual or made in slower/smaller corrections - not huge - but incremental.

    Class balance be far easier: Choose 1 of - Class Mechanic's, TAB abilities, or Capstone Feats

    Also it's often far better to make far more slow, small, and gradual updates more regularly.
    ╘ if they did that class balance might actually become a lot more realistic!

    Now I did message you saying it's fine if you want to advocate for Far Spell to be increased out to 3/6/9/12/15 and even admit I could maybe even support that. Otherwise I have tried exclusively to limit changes to Mechanics, TAB abilities, or Capstone Feat's exclusively.

    As you've now explained it I think I can at least more fully appreciate what you perhaps meant. Unfortunately the 2nd and 3rd Oppressor feat's that each add 1/2/3/4/5 stacks of Chill can't provide 1/0/1/0/1. Well they could: People be getting nothing for 2 feat points in the process. It also has absolutely no benefit on a Boss / Mini-Boss either. It's mostly just helps with trash mobs as most real threats are almost exclusively immune to Freeze... As for other control powers they also don't limit damage from Boss / Mini-Boss. It's why many Wizard's often joke about Control/Control Resist being mostly useless - cause you don't even gain a .5s decrease from Demogorgon, Orcus, and several others in their Stuns or Immobilizes. Now that's even with High Control/Control Resist paired with the Valindra Set or Will-O-Wisp Companions. It's something they clearly need to improve for Wizard's to at least gain a reduced control from Boss / Mini-Boss or have Control at least assist doing more damage to Control Powers.

    Still changing how Freeze works will only further penalize Wizard's. It's why I'd strongly suggest they avoid changing any Heroic or Paragon Feat's just as equally individual powers. It's why I've focused on asking Arcane Mastery Mechanic by extending out from 5 stacks to 7 stacks and increase the damage per stack by 1%. Keep the ask simple - keep it straightforward - and greatly limit or restrict changes Heroic/Paragon Feat's, or the how existing powers work, by simply updating the Mechanic it benefit's everyone regardless of Paragon/Feat choices made.

    ♣ Your 2nd commented reply and my response:

    I think you first did say you wanted it removed as a feat and wanted all ranged powers be extended for all Wizard's. Or perhaps you referenced someone else where you said, ' "fine give far spell to all cws and remove it as a feat." ◄- That's actually a thing I can agree with. ' Yet I'd have to go further back to see who you were refencing. That wouldn't be good either because all Ranged classes start at 80 as I explained. Now I'd even be fine as simply asked and even would support Far Spell going from 2/4/6/8/10 to 3/6/9/12/15 feet it still be 5' feet less than a Hunter Ranger. Sure Warlock do have the Curse Mechanic with 800' range but it's mostly just a small DoT, yet all base ranged abilities are strictly limited to 80' feet exclusively!

    Still I just wanted to give you a little into my thought process.

    Why it's a simple ask, doesn't adversely effect anyone, yet slightly improves all play styles:
    Arcane Mastery Just add 2 extra stacks @ 1% more damage per stack.

    ▪ Change too many Feat's or Powers 'as above' results in lots of agreements/disagreements on a little too much. ;)
    ╘ Not to mention free respect - not that I think they have problem providing them if justified.
    smulch said:

    CW aren't behind by that much to warrant that many changes.

    Perhaps, but when was the last time you saw a Wizard doing a 5 team Dungeon? Why I also suggested [above] for each 5 player threshold allow any Class sure; but not more than one of each, for each multiple of 5. <3

    Still all I'm asking for which is <font color=white>2 extra stacks & 1% more damage per stack in Arcane Mastery and that's doesn't require changing a single Feat, Power, or any other ability at all. But those additional asks above would likely only happen after consider play testing to finally to address the rebalancing Wizard never fully received and would require significantly longer than the smaller, more gradual changes I've suggesting people focused on ▪ Class Mechanics ▪ TAB buff/abilities ▪ Paragon Capstone Feats.

    Now as some have noted Hunter Ranger's also aren't in a great place, cause of their Careful Attack BUG. Some Warlock's were improved recently after the Mod 12 NERF, some are still asking for a similar 'slight' Mechanic BUFF. Mage's are not nearly as prevalent or powerful as a great Mage should be given the Lore. Though I doubt nobody will ever likely come close to closing in on where Great Weapon Fighter's have been and will likely always remain.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 168Member Arc User
    strathkin said:


    ♣ Your 1st commented reply and my response:

    As you've now explained it I think I can at least more fully appreciate what you perhaps meant. Unfortunately the 2nd and 3rd Oppressor feat's that each add 1/2/3/4/5 stacks of Chill can't provide 1/0/1/0/1. Well they could: People be getting nothing for 2 feat points in the process. It also has absolutely no benefit on a Boss / Mini-Boss either. It's mostly just helps with trash mobs as most real threats are exclusively immune to Freeze... As for other control powers they also don't limit damage from Boss / Mini-Boss. It's why many Wizard's often joke about Control/Control Resist being mostly useless - cause you don't even gain a .5s decrease from Demogorgon, Orcus, and several others in their Stuns or Immobilizes. Now that's even with High Control/Control Resist paired with the Valindra Set or Will-O-Wisp Companions. It's something they clearly need to improve for Wizard's to at least gain a reduced control from Boss / Mini-Boss or have Control at least assist doing more damage to Control Powers.

    Still changing how Freeze works will only further penalize Wizard's. It's why I'd strongly suggest they avoid changing any Paragon Feat's. It's why I've focused on asking Arcane Mastery Mechanic is extended out from 5 stacks to 7 stacks and increase the damage from 3% to 4%. Keep the ask simple - keep it straightforward - and greatly limit or restrict changes Heroic/Paragon Feat's, or the how existing powers work, by simply updating the Mechanic it benefit's everyone regardless of Paragon/Feat choices made.

    Class balance would have likely been easier, if they focused on Mechanic's.

    Yeah, but we waiting for class balance even before mod 6, so they should not take it easy. Still, improving the Arcane stacks sounds good and easy to do. But if they are planning to balance out the control class, I would want the devs to at least improve the control aspect as well (like, bring it into existence!!!).


    .
    strathkin said:



    ♣ Your 2nd commented reply and my response:

    I think you first did say you wanted it removed as a feat and wanted all ranged powers be extended for all Wizard's. That wouldn't be good either because all Ranged classes start at 80 as I explained. Now I'd even be fine as simply asked and even would support Far Spell going from 2/4/6/8/10 to 3/6/9/12/15 feet it still be 5' feet less than a Hunter Ranger. Sure Warlock do have the Curse Mechanic with 800' range but it's mostly just a small DoT, yet all base ranged abilities are strictly limited to 80' feet exclusively!

    Now something you might like if they were to consider replacing a Heroic Encounter by replacing Lightning Teleport cause just as only Thaumaturge has Far Spell Oppressor already has Brisk Transport and they could update it with Lightning Teleport. Doing that would require an altogether new Feat for Thaumaturge however and I was trying to prevent too much Development time. Also if they moved Far Spell into a Heroic they'd also likely have to provide all Wizard's at least one Free Respect. Updating a Mechanic doesn't require any Feat Changes what-so-ever.

    Still I just wanted to give you a little into my thought process.

    Why it's a simple ask, doesn't adversely effect anyone, yet slightly improves all play styles:
    Arcane Mastery Just add 2 extra stacks @ 1% more damage per stack.

    ▪ Change too much 'as above' it can results in lots of agreements/disagreements on a little too much. ;)
    ╘ Not to mention the requirement to likely provide a free respect at least to everyone.

    Again, don't try to "save them time". Or tokens, because token do not cost them anything. Ok, Arcane stacks should be buffed, but only fixes the surface. There are problems in the deep that haunts the class as long as we went to mod6.
    smulch said:

    CW aren't behind by that much to warrant that many changes.

    Arguably, but they explicitly said they WILL balance out the class and that (should) warrant something. And by the way, if you look at the Renegade Paragon tree, they are that much behind.

    You can notice that for some reason the Renegade tree has 3 effect that gives you critical chance and while Chaos Magic is useful, Uncertain allegiance and Chilling Advantage only gives 5% and 10% critical chance, which is 2-4k stat points and for endgame, useless.

    These skills are only exist in this form, because before mod6, 100% critical chance was actually hard to reach, so these effects did something for the team. But when Elemental Evil came along, the level cap increased to 70 and as a long term effect, 100% crit became the norm for endgame teams and this rendered crit buffs useless.

    Now, EE came in 2015-04 and these skills are still not changed.

    Similar with Eye of the Storm, pre-mod6 granting 100% crit for 1/3-rd of the time was good. But now you can have 100% crit 3/3 of the time, so that skill is just a bump for the starters and give absolutely nothing to the table later. Still, after 3 years, it's untouched, no additional effect or just making it permanently 100%, nothing.

    So, while in power you think they are not that much behind (though, if 18k CW's are only allowed to be buffers or not even get into TONG/CR, that should be a warning of a problem), in balance the half of the class behind pre-mod6 state and that should warrant a change.
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 168Member Arc User
    By the way, some suggestion:

    -Uncertain Allegiances: You and your allies have 2%/4%/6%/8%/10% Critical Chance and severity.

    Reason: As stated, crit chance in general becomes useless after a point and critical severity has a diminishing effect as well. And the "critically strike" is not a real requirement, just one more proc to lag the game. And to critically proc for making you 100% crit is just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    Note that Uncertain already gives you the 5% crit, so including you in the tooltip is just fixing an errata.

    -Chaotic Nexus: Make the Critical Chance into Critical severity. It's a big buff, but overall, it's a big buff to an effect that only gives 10% buff (can go up to like 12-15% if you can bug it). A capstone should do better than a Controlled Momentum (the tooltip is bad, it's 10%, not 5%).
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,219Member Arc User
    edited August 2018
    True. I'm don't think they have a problem giving a free respect, when their is some significant changes occurring. Still I just think it's far wiser to avoid that, where at all possible, and focus first on Mechanic's, or then TAB abilities: slightly buffing or reducing them dependant on the Class.

    It's a smarter way to achieve class balance, far less changes or new bugs introduced.

    Quick thought: It be nice if Class balance focused less on changing powers, feat's directly.
    ▪ Be nice to see most first focused on buff/debuff in Class: Mechanic, TAB features, or Capstone exclusively.
    ╘ by add/subtracting small Control &/or Damage buff/debuff - class balance be within reach.
    ♠ Wizard (e.g.) Arcane Mastery adds 2 stacks &/or a +1% damage per Stack.

    One other suggestion to perhaps encourage Diversity:
    Sure don't limit Private Party's: Yet no more than 1 of each class, for each 5 player threshold.
    ▪ A Party of 05 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 1 of each class.
    ▪ A Party of 10 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 2 of each class.
    ▪ A Party of 25 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 5 of each class.

    FYI: A lot of thought made to how power's, or individual feat's work: changing those is ugly.
    ╘ it also requires more time to change more individual powers, feat's, while introducing more bugs.
    ╘ increases should also be more gradual or made in slower/smaller corrections - not huge - but incremental.

    As you've now explained it I think I can at least more fully appreciate what you perhaps meant. Now I did message you saying it's fine if you want to advocate for Far Spell to be increased out to 3/6/9/12/15 and even admit I could maybe even support that. Otherwise I have tried exclusively to limit changes to Mechanics, TAB abilities, or Capstone Feat's exclusively.

    Class balance be far easier: Choose 1 of - Class Mechanic's, TAB abilities, or Capstone Feats

    Also it's often far better to make far more slow, small, and gradual updates more regularly.
    ╘ if they did that class balance might actually become a lot more realistic!

    --
    Now if your an Oppressor because of the extra Arcane Stacks proposed you decide to choose the 2nd Feat in Renegade. The first gives 6/12/18/24/30% change to add a stack of Arcane every time Smolder does Damage; while the other paragon feat has a even lessor 'chance' (not a guarantee) to add 6 stacks of chill or 5 stacks of arcane every second for 5 seconds. Yet do you give the 5/10/15% guaranteed you can gain from Thaumaturge; in exchange for a 'chance' to maybe gain a 1 stack every time smolder is done, or even a far smaller chance to gain 5 stacks with Chaos? The difference might be inconsequential. But it would regardless of Paragon or Power's used benefit everyone equally.

    It's may only on average provide a 7% damage boost or at the very most 13% more. But Mechanic's can apply often to several abilities as can TAB enhancements or Capstones. Giving 2 extra stacks and 1% damager per stack isn't significant nor insignificant; but making smaller more regular changes to those would put Class Balance in sight. :o
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • smulchsmulch Posts: 625Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 2018
    I've done a dungeon today, as dps. A tong (random REQ) and a msp. Yesterday I did CR as dps, again.
    Both of those are with random players that I had never met, btw.

    I'm not saying that the state of the game is good for the CW because it's not. But we aren't doing half the damage of other dps either.


    The truth is, most CWs players are not good at the game. CW is a difficult class to master because you literally need to play by knowing which spells are to be prioritized, which spells you need to cast next while knowing what the area looks like and if you need to change target or not. You need to maximize movement by spell jumping (something I just about never see in other CWs).

    You also have to understand your position and always be a step ahead. You need to understand why your gear work and why upgrades are upgrades. You need flexibility and you also need to know which spells are bugged and in which circumstances.

    Copying a build is extremely easy to do. Understanding it, not so much.


    The truth with the CW is that the ramp-up time (that is to say, when we reach our maximum damage output) is just too slow to compete with many other classes that have quick maximum output. Add in that that we just do not have any self-buff that increase or dps during the buff window and this is why CWs are often seen as a bad option.

    CR mitigate this a lot by simply making those windows close to irrelevant and making sustained dps a lot more important. The simplest buff that could occur to CW is to simply make mobs that are freeze immune get a debuff (let's say it last 2 or 3seconds) that act as freeze for the fulfillment requirement of chilling presence. This would fix CW burst problem for the most part. and be pretty darn close to fixing the dps gap between CW and the rest.
  • I can agree to OP's suggestions. 35% buff to damage + a rework of practically everything else major.

    What I can't agree to tho, is the suggestion that every bit of a nerf to CWs from the list that OP made should just be removed as @vordayn listed. So you want all of the buffs, you also want the 96% buff from chilling presence too? Which currently doesn't work in 99% of situations due to really high control resists?

    Don't get me wrong, CWs are behind others in DPS. Just not enough to warrant Chilling presence fix AND all other buffs. Plenty of CWs can do a good job doing DPS, so the factor that's unknown is skill.

    I know you want to be able to one shot Orcus with a Ray of enfeeblement, but considering how much people screeched about GFs murdering orcus before...
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,219Member Arc User
    edited August 2018
    Yea I'm fine leaving Chilling Presence completely alone. I'd also be fine with just extending Arcane Stacks by 2x and/or maybe increase the damage per stack by 1%. That represents about a 13% maximum gain or probably about a 7% net gain on average.

    I think that would be a very fair first step; yet a lot of people seem fixed... on making a lot more drastic changes. I just think the more and varied amount of requests result in likely little if anything being done. It's better if we all could find 1 or 2 items to largely get behind and FOCUS on those types of changes.

    But everyone on the forum is entitled to their own opinion.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • vordaynvordayn Posts: 1,269Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 2018

    I can agree to OP's suggestions. 35% buff to damage + a rework of practically everything else major.

    What I can't agree to tho, is the suggestion that every bit of a nerf to CWs from the list that OP made should just be removed as @vordayn listed. So you want all of the buffs, you also want the 96% buff from chilling presence too? Which currently doesn't work in 99% of situations due to really high control resists?

    Don't get me wrong, CWs are behind others in DPS. Just not enough to warrant Chilling presence fix AND all other buffs. Plenty of CWs can do a good job doing DPS, so the factor that's unknown is skill.

    I know you want to be able to one shot Orcus with a Ray of enfeeblement, but considering how much people screeched about GFs murdering orcus before...

    I guess these are all just suggestions. I wouldn't expect them to change every single one, but hopefully look at a few and improve the CW class and trees in general.

    The changes in particular that I would like to see would be:
    1. Base damage buff
    2. Thaumaturge tree buff e.g. Assailing Force in particular so that it can crit, scale with buffs and a removal of the HP cap, then Creeping Frost/Warped Magic, and perhaps Far Spell as it does nothing much in its current state, and doesn't work logically with some powers (e.g. disintegrate, non-mastery entangling force, icy rays cast on the *same* target)
    3. Renegade tree buff e.g. Abyss of Chaos to crit and scale with buffs, and to have Chilling Advantage also grant an increase in crit severity with increased critical strike (10%/10% seems like a good start).
    I do like the idea of increasing the Arcane Mastery Stack buff, as it is quite elegant and simple to implement as @strathkin pointed out. It doesn't work well for burst damage, but rather during sustained fights, and helps every tree, so I would still also like to see the personal damage of Thaumaturge increased, but also for Renegade to have some improvements as well.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • kozi001kozi001 Posts: 858Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Remove the if it Crits on the first hit, it will always crit from all powers. Let each hit determine whether its going to crit or not. Its really annoying when you have 97% Crit chance and Cast a non Critting Icy Terrain.

    Isn't all Dot dmg work like that?
  • ravnazrael1ravnazrael1 Posts: 36Member Arc User

    A few suggestions and ideas if the devs decide to ever rework/balance CW. :wink:

    Basic

    • Increase all damage of powers by ~35%.
    • Remove the if it Crits on the first hit, it will always crit from all powers. Let each hit determine whether its going to crit or not. Its really annoying when you have 97% Crit chance and Cast a non Critting Icy Terrain.
    Mechanics:
    • Arcane Stacks: Increase the damage per stack from 3% to 4%.

    At Wills:
    • Chilling Cloud: Widen the 3rd Cast AOE to 10' and increase its target cap which is currently at 3 or something to 5.
    • Storm Pillar: Make this an Encounter like At Will. So its an almost instant Cast Fully Charged Pillar with a small Cooldown of like 3 Seconds. As it is at the moment, its very clunky and situational. Also let the Arcs Crit and widen the Arc AOE to 12' up from 8'.
    • Magic Missiles: Let the 3/4/5 hits count as individual hits. At the moment they count as 1 hit when it comes to procing powers.
    • Projectile Type Powers: Maybe bring back the ability to move while casting them.
    Encounters:
    • Entangling Force: Let this be a DoT that works similarly to Conduit of Ice where it can proc things more than once. This will make it more competitive with CoI.
    Dailies:
    • Arcane Singularity: Reverse the Target Cap nerf introduced a lots mods ago, put it back up to 15. It is currently at 8.
    • Ice Storm: Increase its target cap of 5 to 10.
    Class Features:
    • Chilling Presence: Decrease the damage per Stack from 2% to 1%. Makes this Feature less mandatory for damage
    • Arcane Presence: Increase the amount it allows you to benefit from Arcane Mastery to +50% per Rank
    • Arcane Powerfield: Lower its tick rate to once every 0.6 seconds and let it last 6 seconds.
    • Storm Fury: Always activates when you are struck.
    • Frost Wave: Should be totally reworked. Possibly make it so it increases stats. ie Max HP +3% per rank, deflect chance +2% per rank and life steal chance +2% per rank.
    Feats:
    Oppressor:
    • Shatter Strike: Its a good power than needs a bit of a buff to get it similar to other classes Capstones.
    • Suggestion: Increase its 'Shatter Strike' component to deal 65% Weapon Damage and remove the 'control' part of the tooltip. Let the 'Shatter' Component Scale properly like other powers. Also let this ability to be triggered again without having to remove Chill and having to Freeze the targets again.
    • Controlled Momentum: Change the buff to 3/6/9/12/15%.
    • Alacrity: Up its Chance to happen. It seems kinda low when I tried it.
    • Cold Infusion: Up its debuff to 2/4/8/10%.
    • Chilling Control: Really bad when you have Icy Veins. Suggestion: Using Sudden Storm grants you 2/4/6/8/10% of your max AP.
    Thaumaturge:
    • Assailant: The problem with this power is that it doesn't crit and doesn't scale with CA and its not great in AOE situations. Given that the current most current Capstone or near Capstone feats contribute to around 25% of your overall damage, this needs a bit of a rework. Suggestion: To bring back a bit of consistency with CW Powers, it would be nice if this power had a 100% chance to proc against all targets on every hit and tick of powers. Its damage should be reduced to around ~120% Weapon damage and should be able to Crit and work with CA. It should also be ~70% less effective when used with AOE Powers.
    • Elemental Empowerment: The Creeping Frost element is fine how it is, but the Warped Magics part seems a bit broken, it doesn't scale in the same way Creeping Frost does. Suggestion: Warped Magics should ignore half of the targets resistance and not ignore half of the debuffs on the target, just like the tooltip says. In addition to that, maybe both Creeping Frost and Warped Magics should grant a 1/2/3/4/5% damage buff on target that lasts for the duration of the power. As both CP and WM cannot stack, this wont either.
    • Transcendent Master: Kinda useless since Shard and IR have been made unused. Suggestion Increases your Maximum Arcane Stacks by 1/2/3/4/5.
    • Far Spell: There is no use for increasing the Range of Powers. Suggestion: Increase the Radius of AOE Powers by 2/4/6/8/10ft.
    • Snap Freeze: Really bad. Suggestion: Flip it so its 2/4/6/8/10% more damage vs targets afflicted with chill.
    Renegade:
    • Abyss of Chaos: Should be allowed to Critically Strike and Scale with all buffs just like any other power.
    • Unrestrained Chaos: Additionally hitting a target with MoC grants allies 2/4/6/8/10% of their max hp as a shield
    • Energy Recovery: 25% chance on 3rd Cast of Chilling Cloud to give 3 nearby allies 5/10/15/20/25% of their HP as Temp HP.
    Please keep this discussion about CW! :smile:
    Solid ideas all around, If i could make a suggestion I would rework renegade capstone a bit chaotic nexus is mostly worthless and should be replaced with something else, fury is great, and the heals from chaos magic can be useful. Dont have my thinking cap on atm to come up with some ideas but I am sure we can think of something
  • kriptical1kriptical1 Posts: 284Member Arc User
    edited August 2018


    "Solid ideas all around, If i could make a suggestion I would rework renegade capstone a bit chaotic nexus is mostly worthless and should be replaced with something else, fury is great, and the heals from chaos magic can be useful. Dont have my thinking cap on atm to come up with some ideas but I am sure we can think of something"


    something with crit severity maybe?
  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Posts: 304Member Arc User
    edited August 2018



    "Solid ideas all around, If i could make a suggestion I would rework renegade capstone a bit chaotic nexus is mostly worthless and should be replaced with something else, fury is great, and the heals from chaos magic can be useful. Dont have my thinking cap on atm to come up with some ideas but I am sure we can think of something"

    something with crit severity maybe?

    Every time I tried to think of a different proc for chaos magic it was always useless or just a different version of fury. There's also the issue that luck based buffs tend to be bad in the burst dps state the game is currently in.

    Crit Severity for example is pretty much just another form of a damage boost like fury.

    I really think the feat just needs a rework as a whole. The danger you run into though with adding a sizeable team buff is that you run the risk of the feat tree just turning into the dps tree, which would mean just running renegade for everything (boring).

    That's why I proposed a rework based on how many debuffs you have applied to the enemy. Synergy with the rest of the CWs support kit and forces you to drop the dps class features if you want to maximize team buffing.
  • vordaynvordayn Posts: 1,269Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 2018
    dairyzeus said:



    "Solid ideas all around, If i could make a suggestion I would rework renegade capstone a bit chaotic nexus is mostly worthless and should be replaced with something else, fury is great, and the heals from chaos magic can be useful. Dont have my thinking cap on atm to come up with some ideas but I am sure we can think of something"

    something with crit severity maybe?

    Every time I tried to think of a different proc for chaos magic it was always useless or just a different version of fury. There's also the issue that luck based buffs tend to be bad in the burst dps state the game is currently in.

    Crit Severity for example is pretty much just another form of a damage boost like fury.

    I really think the feat just needs a rework as a whole. The danger you run into though with adding a sizeable team buff is that you run the risk of the feat tree just turning into the dps tree, which would mean just running renegade for everything (boring).

    That's why I proposed a rework based on how many debuffs you have applied to the enemy. Synergy with the rest of the CWs support kit and forces you to drop the dps class features if you want to maximize team buffing.
    If they plan on overhauling the stat curves again (like they did in Mod 6) making %'s harder to reach with base stats (like 800:1 instead of 400:1 currently), then the current state of Chaos Magic might be worth it.

    It would also depend on the current state of the game balance, if they do decide to re-design it again. Not saying that it will happen, but there is expectation there will be some 'balancing'. Whether this is to make way for a new class, or to artifically 'raise' the 'levelling cap', or actually raising the level cap, I don't know. But calling for a change to Chaos Magic at this stage in isolation may not be the best idea.

    Also, Chaos Magic is still pretty good for perhaps players less than 12k IL, as they would likely not be reaching the effective caps for certain stats.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Posts: 304Member Arc User
    vordayn said:

    dairyzeus said:



    "Solid ideas all around, If i could make a suggestion I would rework renegade capstone a bit chaotic nexus is mostly worthless and should be replaced with something else, fury is great, and the heals from chaos magic can be useful. Dont have my thinking cap on atm to come up with some ideas but I am sure we can think of something"

    something with crit severity maybe?

    Every time I tried to think of a different proc for chaos magic it was always useless or just a different version of fury. There's also the issue that luck based buffs tend to be bad in the burst dps state the game is currently in.

    Crit Severity for example is pretty much just another form of a damage boost like fury.

    I really think the feat just needs a rework as a whole. The danger you run into though with adding a sizeable team buff is that you run the risk of the feat tree just turning into the dps tree, which would mean just running renegade for everything (boring).

    That's why I proposed a rework based on how many debuffs you have applied to the enemy. Synergy with the rest of the CWs support kit and forces you to drop the dps class features if you want to maximize team buffing.
    If they plan on overhauling the stat curves again (like they did in Mod 6) making %'s harder to reach with base stats (like 800:1 instead of 400:1 currently), then the current state of Chaos Magic might be worth it.

    It would also depend on the current state of the game balance, if they do decide to re-design it again. Not saying that it will happen, but there is expectation there will be some 'balancing'. Whether this is to make way for a new class, or to artifically 'raise' the 'levelling cap', or actually raising the level cap, I don't know. But calling for a change to Chaos Magic at this stage in isolation may not be the best idea.

    Also, Chaos Magic is still pretty good for perhaps players less than 12k IL, as they would likely not be reaching the effective caps for certain stats.
    Those are all fair points. I was indeed talking from an endgame perspective in the current stat curves.

    If drastic changes like new stat curves are around the corner then there's not much point to any theory crafting because it'll be a completely different context to theory craft around.
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,219Member Arc User
    edited August 2018
    My longtime friend who LONG used her Wizard as her Main; has finally stopped playing her almost entirely...

    Wizard's clearly require a little LOVE. <3
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 2,834Member Arc User
    Another thought is simply raise the CW base weapon damage. That would help out immensely.
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,219Member Arc User
    Yea I think I see how even my Cleric will likely be well capable of not only out-dps-ing my Wizard but also offering far better BUFFS regardless what Paragon she is. Still I wouldn't change the Cleric each class needs to have some advantages or disadvantages...

    But Wizard's clearly need some serious LOVE!
  • yperkeimenosyperkeimenos Posts: 327Member Arc User
    I really don't understand why you are all making one suggestion after another. Do you know for how long players have been doing that and get ignored every time, by the Devs/Cryptic? Take it from a caturday survivor and someone who plays exclusively as a CW, that it's a long time. I've come to realise that the only time Cryptic listens ,is when profits are diminishing and players leave en mass. Do you remember those abominations called vigilance quests? Well after driving quite a few players insane , a lot of them,my self included, left and that showed in the little numbers Cryptic has to monitor the player base. After that not only did they do away with them, but issued an apology as well. As a returning player,after more than 3 years time, it's disappointing Neverwinter suffers from the same issues and especially the CW class. It seems that they still haven't found a way to incorporate control as a viable alternative in the game, so lets get rid of the C from the CW and make it just a W, with a greater focus on damage. By the way i'd love to see some mage AD&D spells adopted in the game,like cloudkill.
    It's BUGS bunny i tell you.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 244Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I really don't understand why you are all making one suggestion after another. Do you know for how long players have been doing that and get ignored every time, by the Devs/Cryptic? Take it from a caturday survivor and someone who plays exclusively as a CW, that it's a long time. I've come to realise that the only time Cryptic listens ,is when profits are diminishing and players leave en mass. Do you remember those abominations called vigilance quests? Well after driving quite a few players insane , a lot of them,my self included, left and that showed in the little numbers Cryptic has to monitor the player base. After that not only did they do away with them, but issued an apology as well. As a returning player,after more than 3 years time, it's disappointing Neverwinter suffers from the same issues and especially the CW class. It seems that they still haven't found a way to incorporate control as a viable alternative in the game, so lets get rid of the C from the CW and make it just a W, with a greater focus on damage. By the way i'd love to see some mage AD&D spells adopted in the game,like cloudkill.

    What I've been trying to explain. This is a thread of players dreaming about how things might be.
    DEVs are paying zero attention to any of it, are well aware of how unwanted CWs are, and have shown for 3 modules that they don't care at all - as they work to adjust other things in the updates.

    Not a single suggestion that hasn't been made before, and that the DEVs aren't aware of.

    Pour back over months of posts, typically about how we might find a change that makes DPS a bit better through enchants, the oppressor shatterstrike, etc etc.
    All of them a relative waste of time - unless you're trying to shine as the best amongst the worst of DPS.

    Given how things are, though, what else are you going to post about in this forum?
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,716Member Arc User
    I'd also argue that this persistent notion that being good at CW completely compensates for the class' inherent disadvantages is unhelpful at best. A great CW is still worse than a great DPS or support of almost any other flavor.

    CW may be more difficult to play well than some other classes, but it's still pretty far from rocket science. The big difference I perceive is that bad CWs are more painfully obvious since they stand out even amongst other badly played classes.
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  • smulchsmulch Posts: 625Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    vorphied said:

    I'd also argue that this persistent notion that being good at CW completely compensates for the class' inherent disadvantages is unhelpful at best. A great CW is still worse than a great DPS or support of almost any other flavor.

    CW may be more difficult to play well than some other classes, but it's still pretty far from rocket science. The big difference I perceive is that bad CWs are more painfully obvious since they stand out even amongst other badly played classes.

    While I don't disagree with you that CW are at a significant disadvantage compared to most other dps spec, the difficulty of playing the class at its full potential cause 2 things:

    CWs players think the class needs more buff than it really do AND it cause them to and they blame their bad damage on the class rather than their own ineptitude.

    Everyone else believe the class suck and as such, is unwanted in groups (at least as dps) because the average player is not able to use the class well compared to another class.

    I am actually changing people's opinion about CWs one group at a time but even that fight is extremely long and often feels like a sword swing in the water.
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