Thank you everyone.. We have been invited and accepted a spot with Synergy. I am just waiting to hear if anything will be done about the Stolen/Highjacked Rank 18 SH.
Post edited by frostflowr on
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Thank you everyone.. We have been invited and excepted a spot with Synergy. I am just waiting to hear if anything will be done about the Stolen/Highjacked Rank 18 SH.
If they take action against the account in question, you may not hear about it, due to privacy reasons.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
I feel the best solution to peaceful transitions of power would be this.
1) if the guild leader has been offline for more than 30 days 2) then the guild members get a vote system to vote for a new leader 3) only one vote can be cast per @handle 4) the person being voted for has to have been active within the last 30 5) this will ensure a peaceful transition of power no? 6) go to line 1
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
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minotaur2857Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,141Arc User
I feel the best solution to peaceful transitions of power would be this.
1) if the guild leader has been offline for more than 30 days 2) then the guild members get a vote system to vote for a new leader 3) only one vote can be cast per @handle 4) the person being voted for has to have been active within the last 30 5) this will ensure a peaceful transition of power no? 6) go to line 1
Completely missing the problem, this sort of thing already exists in a simpler form.
The problem is that if you have multiple rank 7s, one can kick or demote the others and completely take over.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
1) if the guild leader has been offline for more than 30 days
It's already the case that another guild member can claim ownership if the leader isn't active for 30 days (that time was extended when the hurricane hit Puerto Rico, not sure if it's back to 30). That handles the case pretty well where there's only one Rank 7 @handle. I agree that a vote system would be an improvement on what I understand the process currently to be (perhaps one vote per account, weighted by time of membership in the guild).
The complication that happened in this case is that there were two Rank 7's and one of them was deceived into inviting an additional member as Rank 7. The solution that STO has seems to cover this pretty well.
Thank you everyone.. We have been invited and excepted a spot with Synergy. I am just waiting to hear if anything will be done about the Stolen/Highjacked Rank 18 SH.
If they take action against the account in question, you may not hear about it, due to privacy reasons.
LMAO Privacy reasons?!!! Yes I was told that I wouldn't 'hear' due to 'PRIVACY' reasons...the only 'person' that gets the 'privacy' is the jerk off that stole the SH/Guild.. but oks.. so, why can't I hear back, "yes we have investigated and we are sorry but you can't have your SH back. OR yes we have investigated and we are sorry that this happened to you here is your Rank 18 SH back OR Even your Rank 17 with the remaining 4days of waiting for the upgrade." And even this.. " We are still investigating your situation" "please continue to be patient". Term of Service.. who is that REALLY for?? Sure doesn't seem to be for the 'layman' player.. Would things have been different if this was an actual case of someone HACKING into an account and taking over??!! From what I can see, they are just 'stuck' on its between two Rank 7's. Gawds don't I just wish it was that, I wouldn't be here. But as it is and was NOT between TWO actual GUILD MEMBER RANK 7's, it is a case of THEFT why can't they see that??!! And it isn't a case of a one time thing either, this person was going around trying OTHER Guilds at the same time.. 3 of which was in the same bloody Alliance. But yet, once again, its the victims fault.. guilty.. while the theif gets away..again.
Thank you everyone.. We have been invited and excepted a spot with Synergy. I am just waiting to hear if anything will be done about the Stolen/Highjacked Rank 18 SH.
If they take action against the account in question, you may not hear about it, due to privacy reasons.
LMAO Privacy reasons?!!! Yes I was told that I wouldn't 'hear' due to 'PRIVACY' reasons...the only 'person' that gets the 'privacy' is the jerk off that stole the SH/Guild.. but oks.. so, why can't I hear back, "yes we have investigated and we are sorry but you can't have your SH back. OR yes we have investigated and we are sorry that this happened to you here is your Rank 18 SH back OR Even your Rank 17 with the remaining 4days of waiting for the upgrade." And even this.. " We are still investigating your situation" "please continue to be patient". Term of Service.. who is that REALLY for?? Sure doesn't seem to be for the 'layman' player.. Would things have been different if this was an actual case of someone HACKING into an account and taking over??!! From what I can see, they are just 'stuck' on its between two Rank 7's. Gawds don't I just wish it was that, I wouldn't be here. But as it is and was NOT between TWO actual GUILD MEMBER RANK 7's, it is a case of THEFT why can't they see that??!! And it isn't a case of a one time thing either, this person was going around trying OTHER Guilds at the same time.. 3 of which was in the same bloody Alliance. But yet, once again, its the victims fault.. guilty.. while the theif gets away..again.
Surely, all they need to do is look at the @handle of the imposter, note in the Guild Activity logs when they joined, look at the logs of all the kicks that they made to the real leaders (again by checking their @handles and how long they had been in the guild) and then verify the truth as to what happened?
It sounds like this one @handle that did this was only part of the guild a short while and then completely took over. I don't see why this would take so long to verify honestly ... @nitocris83?
Thank you everyone.. We have been invited and excepted a spot with Synergy. I am just waiting to hear if anything will be done about the Stolen/Highjacked Rank 18 SH.
If they take action against the account in question, you may not hear about it, due to privacy reasons.
LMAO Privacy reasons?!!! Yes I was told that I wouldn't 'hear' due to 'PRIVACY' reasons...the only 'person' that gets the 'privacy' is the jerk off that stole the SH/Guild.. but oks.. so, why can't I hear back, "yes we have investigated and we are sorry but you can't have your SH back. OR yes we have investigated and we are sorry that this happened to you here is your Rank 18 SH back OR Even your Rank 17 with the remaining 4days of waiting for the upgrade." And even this.. " We are still investigating your situation" "please continue to be patient". Term of Service.. who is that REALLY for?? Sure doesn't seem to be for the 'layman' player.. Would things have been different if this was an actual case of someone HACKING into an account and taking over??!! From what I can see, they are just 'stuck' on its between two Rank 7's. Gawds don't I just wish it was that, I wouldn't be here. But as it is and was NOT between TWO actual GUILD MEMBER RANK 7's, it is a case of THEFT why can't they see that??!! And it isn't a case of a one time thing either, this person was going around trying OTHER Guilds at the same time.. 3 of which was in the same bloody Alliance. But yet, once again, its the victims fault.. guilty.. while the theif gets away..again.
Surely, all they need to do is look at the @handle of the imposter, note in the Guild Activity logs when they joined, look at the logs of all the kicks that they made to the real leaders (again by checking their @handles and how long they had been in the guild) and then verify the truth as to what happened?
It sounds like this one @handle that did this was only part of the guild a short while and then completely took over. I don't see why this would take so long to verify honestly ... @nitocris83?
Yes I'd have thought that but what happens next is that the imposter says "I paid the guild lead x bajillion AD for the guild" and Cryptic doesn't have the logging to see if he is telling the truth.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited May 2018
I don't see how it has anything to do with privacy. There is no premise of privacy, there is no real life information, and everything is Cryptic data. Whos privacy is supposedly protected there?
They can have many reasons to not want to express what actions are taken, especially if none taken, or expose the lack of telemetry or loging available but privacy is just an excuse.
Where all users agree to upon playing the game, and clearly agree to the data be collected and used in such cases. A response to CS ticket if measures are taken or not, is a quality of a customer service measurement and not a privacy issue.
Letting you know what actions were taken with that person's account could maybe fall under privacy, but that is all. You have every right to expect an answer (yay or nay) on the eventual status of your Stronghold. Anything less is inexcusable.
Thank you everyone.. We have been invited and excepted a spot with Synergy. I am just waiting to hear if anything will be done about the Stolen/Highjacked Rank 18 SH.
If they take action against the account in question, you may not hear about it, due to privacy reasons.
LMAO Privacy reasons?!!! Yes I was told that I wouldn't 'hear' due to 'PRIVACY' reasons...the only 'person' that gets the 'privacy' is the jerk off that stole the SH/Guild.. but oks.. so, why can't I hear back, "yes we have investigated and we are sorry but you can't have your SH back. OR yes we have investigated and we are sorry that this happened to you here is your Rank 18 SH back OR Even your Rank 17 with the remaining 4days of waiting for the upgrade." And even this.. " We are still investigating your situation" "please continue to be patient". Term of Service.. who is that REALLY for?? Sure doesn't seem to be for the 'layman' player.. Would things have been different if this was an actual case of someone HACKING into an account and taking over??!! From what I can see, they are just 'stuck' on its between two Rank 7's. Gawds don't I just wish it was that, I wouldn't be here. But as it is and was NOT between TWO actual GUILD MEMBER RANK 7's, it is a case of THEFT why can't they see that??!! And it isn't a case of a one time thing either, this person was going around trying OTHER Guilds at the same time.. 3 of which was in the same bloody Alliance. But yet, once again, its the victims fault.. guilty.. while the theif gets away..again.
Surely, all they need to do is look at the @handle of the imposter, note in the Guild Activity logs when they joined, look at the logs of all the kicks that they made to the real leaders (again by checking their @handles and how long they had been in the guild) and then verify the truth as to what happened?
It sounds like this one @handle that did this was only part of the guild a short while and then completely took over. I don't see why this would take so long to verify honestly ... @nitocris83?
Yes I'd have thought that but what happens next is that the imposter says "I paid the guild lead x bajillion AD for the guild" and Cryptic doesn't have the logging to see if he is telling the truth.
Sorry but I do believe they can check to see if someone paid 'x bajillion AD'. Go back to Sunday, and check my AD balance.. then check on that Tuesday.. and see if there is an increase that really couldn't be possible in the normal way.. and Im not talking about maybe an increase of 1million, cause if I really wanted to I could sell everything I have in my personal bank, which would be about 1million+. They can check.. one of our members some months ago was hacked, their whole account taken over, they investigated, and returned EVERYTHING. Yes it took a few days to do this, but he was able to get all his Chars back with all his enchants ect... I suppose there is another way to get the 'bajillion AD' .. and not show up... but I don't have a clue how to.. I am a very 'simple' player, I don't know the ends and outs of how to SCAM a person. I don't know where to go looking on the 'blackmarket' to see where to 'buy' a guild.. I don't know why it is taking so long to 'investigate' OR if they are even 'investigating'. Its like pissing in the wind....
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minotaur2857Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,141Arc User
Thank you everyone.. We have been invited and excepted a spot with Synergy. I am just waiting to hear if anything will be done about the Stolen/Highjacked Rank 18 SH.
If they take action against the account in question, you may not hear about it, due to privacy reasons.
LMAO Privacy reasons?!!! Yes I was told that I wouldn't 'hear' due to 'PRIVACY' reasons...the only 'person' that gets the 'privacy' is the jerk off that stole the SH/Guild.. but oks.. so, why can't I hear back, "yes we have investigated and we are sorry but you can't have your SH back. OR yes we have investigated and we are sorry that this happened to you here is your Rank 18 SH back OR Even your Rank 17 with the remaining 4days of waiting for the upgrade." And even this.. " We are still investigating your situation" "please continue to be patient". Term of Service.. who is that REALLY for?? Sure doesn't seem to be for the 'layman' player.. Would things have been different if this was an actual case of someone HACKING into an account and taking over??!! From what I can see, they are just 'stuck' on its between two Rank 7's. Gawds don't I just wish it was that, I wouldn't be here. But as it is and was NOT between TWO actual GUILD MEMBER RANK 7's, it is a case of THEFT why can't they see that??!! And it isn't a case of a one time thing either, this person was going around trying OTHER Guilds at the same time.. 3 of which was in the same bloody Alliance. But yet, once again, its the victims fault.. guilty.. while the theif gets away..again.
Surely, all they need to do is look at the @handle of the imposter, note in the Guild Activity logs when they joined, look at the logs of all the kicks that they made to the real leaders (again by checking their @handles and how long they had been in the guild) and then verify the truth as to what happened?
It sounds like this one @handle that did this was only part of the guild a short while and then completely took over. I don't see why this would take so long to verify honestly ... @nitocris83?
Yes I'd have thought that but what happens next is that the imposter says "I paid the guild lead x bajillion AD for the guild" and Cryptic doesn't have the logging to see if he is telling the truth.
Sorry but I do believe they can check to see if someone paid 'x bajillion AD'. Go back to Sunday, and check my AD balance.. then check on that Tuesday.. and see if there is an increase that really couldn't be possible in the normal way.. and Im not talking about maybe an increase of 1million, cause if I really wanted to I could sell everything I have in my personal bank, which would be about 1million+. They can check.. one of our members some months ago was hacked, their whole account taken over, they investigated, and returned EVERYTHING. Yes it took a few days to do this, but he was able to get all his Chars back with all his enchants ect... I suppose there is another way to get the 'bajillion AD' .. and not show up... but I don't have a clue how to.. I am a very 'simple' player, I don't know the ends and outs of how to SCAM a person. I don't know where to go looking on the 'blackmarket' to see where to 'buy' a guild.. I don't know why it is taking so long to 'investigate' OR if they are even 'investigating'. Its like pissing in the wind....
Missing the point, ADs can be siphoned off to another account or whatever (and I was talking about the other leader that actually did the promoting). Yes they have backups of your account at specific points. What they don't have is the capability of monitoring transfers of ADs or they'd be a lot better at banning the accounts that profited from past exploits rather than the ones that did them.
I got all that... I thought the xbajillion was rather funny... I know this jerkoff could say all that..it doesn't really matter...
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
> @minotaur2857 said: > I feel the best solution to peaceful transitions of power would be this. > > 1) if the guild leader has been offline for more than 30 days > 2) then the guild members get a vote system to vote for a new leader > 3) only one vote can be cast per @handle > 4) the person being voted for has to have been active within the last 30 > 5) this will ensure a peaceful transition of power no? > 6) go to line 1 > > Completely missing the problem, this sort of thing already exists in a simpler form. > > The problem is that if you have multiple rank 7s, one can kick or demote the others and completely take over.
No person of equal rank should be able to kick another of equal rank ...
A motion to demote someone of equal rank should be possible but take 15 days at least to commence after a vote
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
> 4) the person being voted for has to have been active within the last 30
> 5) this will ensure a peaceful transition of power no?
> 6) go to line 1
>
> Completely missing the problem, this sort of thing already exists in a simpler form.
>
> The problem is that if you have multiple rank 7s, one can kick or demote the others and completely take over.
No person of equal rank should be able to kick another of equal rank ...
A motion to demote someone of equal rank should be possible but take 15 days at least to commence after a vote
I think the 15 days is a bit long, but I agree with the rest of it.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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minotaur2857Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,141Arc User
> 4) the person being voted for has to have been active within the last 30
> 5) this will ensure a peaceful transition of power no?
> 6) go to line 1
>
> Completely missing the problem, this sort of thing already exists in a simpler form.
>
> The problem is that if you have multiple rank 7s, one can kick or demote the others and completely take over.
No person of equal rank should be able to kick another of equal rank ...
A motion to demote someone of equal rank should be possible but take 15 days at least to commence after a vote
I think the 15 days is a bit long, but I agree with the rest of it.
This type of thing would mess up 2 of my guilds badly. It should be a check box to apply this which takes several days to remove, but once removed stays removed. Twice recently I have had to demote the other leaders, remove our guild from an alliance then repromote the other leaders. If I can't do this it would make guild management with multiple leaders really awkward. (One of the guilds needs to be removed once a month, the other has 7 leaders not all of whom log on close to every day)
It's nice that long time players are all aware of these dangers, but new players join the game every day. I've been playing for six months and had no idea this kind of nastiness was even possible. I really wish there was some way to warn new guild leaders in-game. There are guides on refining, and for equipping Mounts and Companions, but this seems so much more important.
I've been robbed twice IRL - and while losing your stuff really sucks, what really gets to you is the fact that you fell prey to some degenerate. You know? Suffering defeat at the hands of a banana is infinitely preferable to being brought down by someone who's inferior in every way that matters. Still, I'd much rather be in @frostflowr 's shoes than the crook's. You've suffered a huge loss, but you haven't given up or given in which is laudable. The person who robbed you lost a lot more than he gained, but the poor fool's too stupid to comprehend that. Better to die of plague than live as a plague rat.
On the one hand, this certainly looks like a definite breach of contract, and I hope the devs find a way to enforce their rules and protect the players who abide by them.
On the other hand - looking at it from an rpg perspective.... it's . . . interesting. I'm only saying this because just the other day I was reading up on Downtime Activities with my tabletop group. Some of the younger members have a difficult time with the concept of role playing, so I was trying to explain to one of them why it makes more sense for her Thief to pursue Crime than Work or Crafting an Item. Anyway, having that in mind while I was reading about this obvious crime, it occurred to me that here in Neverwinter, players have to contend with real thieves - which is as I said, interesting. Taking down a Stronghold would be pretty high up there - like a DC 25. But that said, it's unfair, because even on tabletop, there are major consequences if you get caught, so going after a mark with a high DC poses a real risk. That's where this parallel falls flat. In a case like this where apparently the criminal player's stupid enough to get caught so easily, stupid enough to get his username spread around the community at large - you'd think the ramifications for such incompetence would follow swiftly. I mean, come on. Apparently this isn't the first time this guy has rolled the dice and lost the roll.... and nothing has happened. Reading through the comments, it's obvious that other players keep rolling the dice, and losing the roll, yet nothing has happened to them either.
At this point they're just thumbing their noses at the devs because they think the devs either can't touch them, or won't. And nothing would please me more than to see the surprise on their stupid looking faces when they go to log on and find that they've been permanently banned. Ha ha ha!
I'd be willing to bet that the community as a whole would be more than happy to skip the occasional update while the devs periodically dropped everything to focus on pillorying a few delinquents. Ban 'em and post their names where everyone can see - nail their digital hides to the Tree of Elemental Balance - or better yet, just post the number of accounts banned - let their names instantly blink out of existence.
I feel for you guys. I know the effort it takes to build a guild. I basically have solo'd my guild to Lvl 8. With GH Rank9 in progress. But taking break from game...
The issue is not just turning over guild leaders to other members. Although Misfit's is more fraud, I'm sure the person is looking to sell your former SH18.
1)Guild Members can be kicked with no ramifications to Guild. In DDO, if you are kicked the guild loses 25% renown and could potentially drop Guild Levels. This is the biggest issue IMO.
2)Guild Boon's are permanent and are lost if removed from guild. Guild Boons are OP with Guild Rank and non existent at lower levels. Cannot be shared with Non Guild Members too temporarily!!!
3)Should really only be One Guild Leader and rest lower rank. With one rank Successor. And predetermined time for turn over with no login to Successor. Or other rank based on seniority. DDO has this method.
4)Need Point system to determine total Guild Contribution of each Member. Not just Guild Marks. Or System that carrys over. In DDO it's guild renown. as noted above guild loses 25% if kicked, and lower amount if person leaves on good terms. Maybe take all Guild Marks, if kicked and active. Need set time of absence. Person would take over guild Rank0 with this method!
Massive Credit Card Chargeback from all the member that had got something for the SGH upgrade?
Sorry, but if i spend real money, and my investment are protected in this way by the company, i will do that. Is not possible having an SGH stolen so easly, is really this the level of protection that Cryptic give to his user/Player?
People has spent real money on that SGH, real Money. Where is the added value that i've paid for? You can't give enought protection on this kind of scam? Cryptic Fault.
Good to see that "NOW" they are doing something about that, will see the implementation of their hard work in maybe mod 18/19.
Is not possible that the scammer are protected in this way by privacy reason, there is no privacy for scammer.
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Massive Credit Card Chargeback from all the member that had got something for the SGH upgrade?
Sorry, but if i spend real money, and my investment are protected in this way by the company, i will do that. Is not possible having an SGH stolen so easly, is really this the level of protection that Cryptic give to his user/Player?
People has spent real money on that SGH, real Money. Where is the added value that i've paid for? You can't give enought protection on this kind of scam? Cryptic Fault.
Good to see that "NOW" they are doing something about that, will see the implementation of their hard work in maybe mod 18/19.
Is not possible that the scammer are protected in this way by privacy reason, there is no privacy for scammer.
If they do chargebacks, they all get permabanned. That's not a solution.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
@raiderone000 DDO's guild system is not one of the strengths of that game...
And yet it seems to offer better protection than we got 0,o
Meh. That's not because SSG thought about security in any meaningful way. It's simply because they decided guilds can have only one person at the top of the hierarchy and implemented it that way. Having been a leader of two guilds in DDO and now being co-leader of one in NW, I like NW's system better. DDO's system is a pain in the butt because I didn't want to always have to log onto my character that was the leader of the guild to do some things. It would have been nice to be able to promote all my characters to that rank and have full privileges and permissions no matter which character I was playing. (I had five or six characters I regularly played and worked to gear up in that game.) Also, DDO's system only has three ranks: member, officer, leader. You can designate someone as the "heir" or whatever they called it and that person got "first dibs" on becoming leader if the leader went offline for at least 30 days. The same kind of scam was possible in DDO, too. The only difference is that the person running the scam couldn't kick the guild leader. They could still kick everyone else, including all other officers. I know of a couple of times it happened in DDO, too.
The fact is that you cannot write a program that perfectly guards against things that criminals and scammers can do. Personally, I don't have much sympathy for people this happens to because I can't understand why anyone would be so trusting. I also can't understand why people don't leave the promoting to the person whose second account it supposedly belongs to and let/force/have that person promote their own "second account alt" to the level they want them at in the guild. These scams are the kinds of things I expect from people, too. (Yes, I have an abysmally low opinion of people. When they do good or nice things, I am pleasantly surprised. When they do bad or mean things, I am prepared.)
Edited to add: Keeping yourself and your possessions secure, even online or in a virtual world, is primarily one's own responsibility. The developers have done what they can. Guarding against social engineering - and make no mistake, this scam is a form of social engineering - is very difficult and mostly falls to the users. The developers can only do so much.
Personally, I don't have much sympathy for people this happens to because I can't understand why anyone would be so trusting.
Nice mentality there... For your information, it happened to ONE person of the guild, and as a result, more than 100 players were impacted... So....Still not much sympathy to those who it happened to ?
@raiderone000 DDO's guild system is not one of the strengths of that game...
And yet it seems to offer better protection than we got 0,o
Meh. That's not because SSG thought about security in any meaningful way. It's simply because they decided guilds can have only one person at the top of the hierarchy and implemented it that way. Having been a leader of two guilds in DDO and now being co-leader of one in NW, I like NW's system better. DDO's system is a pain in the butt because I didn't want to always have to log onto my character that was the leader of the guild to do some things. It would have been nice to be able to promote all my characters to that rank and have full privileges and permissions no matter which character I was playing. (I had five or six characters I regularly played and worked to gear up in that game.) Also, DDO's system only has three ranks: member, officer, leader. You can designate someone as the "heir" or whatever they called it and that person got "first dibs" on becoming leader if the leader went offline for at least 30 days. The same kind of scam was possible in DDO, too. The only difference is that the person running the scam couldn't kick the guild leader. They could still kick everyone else, including all other officers. I know of a couple of times it happened in DDO, too.
The fact is that you cannot write a program that perfectly guards against things that criminals and scammers can do. Personally, I don't have much sympathy for people this happens to because I can't understand why anyone would be so trusting. I also can't understand why people don't leave the promoting to the person whose second account it supposedly belongs to and let/force/have that person promote their own "second account alt" to the level they want them at in the guild. These scams are the kinds of things I expect from people, too. (Yes, I have an abysmally low opinion of people. When they do good or nice things, I am pleasantly surprised. When they do bad or mean things, I am prepared.)
Edited to add: Keeping yourself and your possessions secure, even online or in a virtual world, is primarily one's own responsibility. The developers have done what they can. Guarding against social engineering - and make no mistake, this scam is a form of social engineering - is very difficult and mostly falls to the users. The developers can only do so much.
NWN guild system is definitely better than DDO's on a whole. But DDO does a few things better. Penalty for kicking members and one guild leader reduces risk of guild taker over. You are wrong about officers kicking officers...cannot happen. Only GL can kick officers. The other title is Successor... I have only heard of guild spats of officers kicking all members. Not of full guild take over and removing all members, officers and additional GL.
It is always my opinion that Developers can do better and improvements are always necessary. When a hole is found, it needs to be filled in. Especially fraud
I would like to see system that protects regular guild members from easily being kicked out for no reason. Make a system that carry's over to another guild, member keeps partial amount of contributions when kicked and guild loses those contributions. Based on length with guild, length away from the game and if member parted on good terms.
I have a saying, I trust you as far as I can throw you. But that doesn't mean, i don't have compassion for someone else! My guild in NWN did have multiple R7's before they all went MIA. So you cannot say, it won't happen to me. It's easy to point blame at poor guy who was trusting and say it'll never be you, doesn't mean NWN shouldn't add protection. Or that they don't have an obligation.
Well than they should've never protected character deletion, or item deletion. I have no sympathy for someone who cannot type right character name or is too quick moving items and lost one! But i do.
I am not asking for OR looking for 'sympathy'. When I submitted my second ticket I was told I should put this out on the forum.. So I did. More I guess to warn others not aware of the dickheads that are out in the gaming world. I don't know why I was not concerned/worried about my StrongHold, as I said before, it never crossed my mind. I have had people come in, ROB the Guild Bank, and then leave. We have even 'kicked' someone that just came in to see what was in the Guild Bank, take whatever they could (as I set it low for members) that day and leave... and come back the next, take what they can and leave.. we watched this person for some time as we didn't want to jump to any conclusions. The bank has always seemed (to me) the first thing someone comes to, when they join a new guild, so I have, as I said, put the amount that member (at that time) could take out. Now we have gone back to the recruite, new member, member ect... and all of those do not have access. They can put things in, but they can't take anything out.. they have to ASK. We do NOT mind helping out our new recruits/members thats what, WE think the guild is all about. Helping one another, get better, stronger and having fun. The fun has been sucked right out of this game due to this dickhead. I really do not want to play, I basically have to force myself to go into the game, and do my dailies. We are upgrading the new Stronghold, Rank 5 by tomorrow. We are moving right along. I still want my, NOW RANK 18 Stronghold BACK. And quite frankly that is the POINT. It was STOLEN. YES we fracked UP. WE got that already. YES we were stupied. GOT THAT TOO. Should there be better security within the game? Yes there should be. As well within the Guid/Stronghold itself. Should there only be ONE Rank 7? I personally don't think so, I prefer to have at least 3. Which currently we have. Two of us talk daily, at length, about what is good for our guild, what we can do, what we need to do, ect.. I send out guild mails several times a week, and post it on our FB page, to keep our Guild Members up to date, on what is going on. We have set up 'security' in the event this should ever happen again. That was put into place BEFORE we decided to start all over again. So basically, shove your 'i don't have any sympathy' where the sun doesn't shine. I would dearly love to hear from the Devs, and have them explain to me why we haven't gotten our stronghold back.
@raiderone000 DDO's guild system is not one of the strengths of that game...
And yet it seems to offer better protection than we got 0,o
Meh. That's not because SSG thought about security in any meaningful way. It's simply because they decided guilds can have only one person at the top of the hierarchy and implemented it that way. Having been a leader of two guilds in DDO and now being co-leader of one in NW, I like NW's system better. DDO's system is a pain in the butt because I didn't want to always have to log onto my character that was the leader of the guild to do some things. It would have been nice to be able to promote all my characters to that rank and have full privileges and permissions no matter which character I was playing. (I had five or six characters I regularly played and worked to gear up in that game.) Also, DDO's system only has three ranks: member, officer, leader. You can designate someone as the "heir" or whatever they called it and that person got "first dibs" on becoming leader if the leader went offline for at least 30 days. The same kind of scam was possible in DDO, too. The only difference is that the person running the scam couldn't kick the guild leader. They could still kick everyone else, including all other officers. I know of a couple of times it happened in DDO, too.
The fact is that you cannot write a program that perfectly guards against things that criminals and scammers can do. Personally, I don't have much sympathy for people this happens to because I can't understand why anyone would be so trusting. I also can't understand why people don't leave the promoting to the person whose second account it supposedly belongs to and let/force/have that person promote their own "second account alt" to the level they want them at in the guild. These scams are the kinds of things I expect from people, too. (Yes, I have an abysmally low opinion of people. When they do good or nice things, I am pleasantly surprised. When they do bad or mean things, I am prepared.)
Edited to add: Keeping yourself and your possessions secure, even online or in a virtual world, is primarily one's own responsibility. The developers have done what they can. Guarding against social engineering - and make no mistake, this scam is a form of social engineering - is very difficult and mostly falls to the users. The developers can only do so much.
I agree that one's own safety & security is one's own responsibility. But you are wrong when you say that the dev's have done all that they can. I have played this game for over two years now. This is the first time I have heard that something like this situation is even possible. I heard in the first month about "bank thieves", but to steal a whole guild?!?! 0,o That was unthinkable. And then to find out this HAMSTER has done it before? And not only is the HAMSTER still in the game! WTF?!? But the dev's are covering up for said HAMSTER! You cannot protect yourself from getting eaten by a bear in your neighborhood, if the authorities don't tell you, "THERE IS A DAMN BEAR IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD!" Especially if they protect the bear by forbidding the newspapers from writing any stories about the FACT THAT THERE IS A DAMN BEAR IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD!
Harumph! Bear better stay of my damn lawn!
The devs set up a system where months, if not years, of effort can be stolen overnight. If the refuse to set that right, fine. But the least they owed us, was to let us know that this situation exists, And they should have done that THE FIRST TIME IT HAPPENED!
Personally, I don't have much sympathy for people this happens to because I can't understand why anyone would be so trusting.
Nice mentality there... For your information, it happened to ONE person of the guild, and as a result, more than 100 players were impacted... So....Still not much sympathy to those who it happened to ?
Empathy and sympathy are different things. You should look them up and gain that knowledge. I said I have no sympathy for the person (or people, if we're talking about multiple instances) it happened to. I never said I didn't have any empathy for the guild members who were kicked through no fault of their own.
I agree that one's own safety & security is one's own responsibility. But you are wrong when you say that the dev's have done all that they can. I have played this game for over two years now. This is the first time I have heard that something like this situation is even possible. I heard in the first month about "bank thieves", but to steal a whole guild?!?! 0,o That was unthinkable. And then to find out this HAMSTER has done it before? And not only is the HAMSTER still in the game! WTF?!? But the dev's are covering up for said HAMSTER! You cannot protect yourself from getting eaten by a bear in your neighborhood, if the authorities don't tell you, "THERE IS A DAMN BEAR IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD!" Especially if they protect the bear by forbidding the newspapers from writing any stories about the FACT THAT THERE IS A DAMN BEAR IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD!
Harumph! Bear better stay of my damn lawn!
The devs set up a system where months, if not years, of effort can be stolen overnight. If the refuse to set that right, fine. But the least they owed us, was to let us know that this situation exists, And they should have done that THE FIRST TIME IT HAPPENED!
I can see where this might be the first time people have heard of this happening. I'm just surprised that people fail to recognize this inherent vulnerability in the system from the point where they first interacted with this system, especially at that level. I recognized that vulnerability from the first time I was in a guild that had more than one account with rank 7 characters in the guild - and I was only rank 1 or 2 at the time. It should be pretty easy to see that this vulnerability exists.
I say the devs have done what they can because there isn't an algorithmic solution to this without fundamentally changing the way this guild system is set up. Frankly, social engineering vulnerabilities are almost impossible to solve with software. Social engineering vulnerabilities are people problems and that requires training users. Again, the fact that one rank 7 member can demote another rank 7 member should be perfectly obvious, particularly to anyone who has a character that is a rank 7 member in a guild.
Beyond putting up a sticky post on the forums to alert users and training their CS on how to investigate these problems and correct them, I don't really see that the developers have anything more that they can do or should be required to do. I do feel that Cryptic should at least be as helpful as possible to players who fall victim to this scam. They really shouldn't allow "selling" a guild. In my opinion, that should be just as verboten as buying AD, Zen, or items from a third-party. The problem with that approach is it would lead to banning the person who fell victim, as well as (ideally) banning the person who perpetrated the scam. So, yes, Cryptic could do more in these situations and they really should do more. The goodwill from players (and preventing or recovering from the demoralization that accompanies falling victim to this scam) is worth the investment in their customer service department.
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
While it's unfortunate that they fell to this scam, and I hope they get the SH back and the scammer get banned (for what it's worth).
Ive personally PMd some newbiew guild leaders that do not understand that those that "plz invite guild" do not want their bank, they want to see the guild roster (and each alliance guild) and look for the high rank accounts, just to try this.
This is not some interface / permission bug, it's a scam, and the same way a person don't just give away their home to some new found 'sibling' they never met in their life, they shouldn't rank up rank7 when rank7 can fully take over. Like in RL people do fall for scams, this is, again, unfortunate, and I really really wouldn't like to be in the position of loosing a guild over such mistake, but HAMSTER happens and at least in the big picture of things, there are much worse things to be scammed off.
There are easy ways to avoid this specific scam and many related issues:
-- Single account R7 - This also prevents those "Guild leaders fought and one kicked the other and half the guild" - Dictatorship had it's benefits.
-- If you still want multiple R7, the only one that can rank alts to R7 is the account holder. You want to swap what alt on R7? no problem, swap to the alt that is R7, click "show offline members" and rank your own.
Some other things
--Don't invite everyone - I know some guilds that always on the account cap, some recruit from every zone, and spam those messages, and ofc every guild has the right to do their thing how they think it's right. But even an one sentence conversation "why you want to join us?", "How you think you will contribute ?", "Where you've heard of us? (not when spamming)" would filter 99% of the "plz invite guild".
--Have second way of contact - Even if some HAMSTER happens, angry officer kicks everyone, or who knows what, you can still can contact the majority of the members and at least let them know. One thing to kick inactives, but another to find yourself loging in one day in a guild, and the next finding yourself out without a word. Discord works great for that, or custom channels (PC) or anything else people use nowadays.
I agree that CS can do much better in their responses. Laconic template answers is not what expected. Nor any privacy concerns.
Cryptic can do more in terms what they track, if they can't check what happened, then add the logs. Invest one time in proper logging and simple tools for CS to check the logs and you saved a lot of time and grief for many people.
Perhaps some preventative measures, yet, the ideas in many cases are disruptive due to other things, for example there is no option to change places in alliance, so to quickly reshuffle the easiest way is to demote every r7 (even alts, - No idea why it's char and not account based) do the shuffling, leaving, joining, and then rank back the R7s. With systems like votes and days and what not it will hurt lower rank guilds the most because no one will want go through the trouble of shuffling alliance for their discount. Other are not the way, guild inheritance in case if leader left is not popularity contest, this is what rank6 are for.
Anyway, at the end, with all that CS and Cryptic can/should do, it was a scam, it was Social engineering, not a bug (and kudos for standing up to that mistake and posting - can only imagine how HAMSTER the situation is) so there is a limit to the hate on the devs and throwing blame.
To the OP, I hope you do get the guild back, or if not, build a better one.
Comments
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
1) if the guild leader has been offline for more than 30 days
2) then the guild members get a vote system to vote for a new leader
3) only one vote can be cast per @handle
4) the person being voted for has to have been active within the last 30
5) this will ensure a peaceful transition of power no?
6) go to line 1
The problem is that if you have multiple rank 7s, one can kick or demote the others and completely take over.
The complication that happened in this case is that there were two Rank 7's and one of them was deceived into inviting an additional member as Rank 7. The solution that STO has seems to cover this pretty well.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
It sounds like this one @handle that did this was only part of the guild a short while and then completely took over. I don't see why this would take so long to verify honestly ... @nitocris83?
Whos privacy is supposedly protected there?
They can have many reasons to not want to express what actions are taken, especially if none taken, or expose the lack of telemetry or loging available but privacy is just an excuse.
Here is btw PWE/Cryptic Privacy policy
http://www.arcgames.com/en/about/privacy
Where all users agree to upon playing the game, and clearly agree to the data be collected and used in such cases.
A response to CS ticket if measures are taken or not, is a quality of a customer service measurement and not a privacy issue.
> I feel the best solution to peaceful transitions of power would be this.
>
> 1) if the guild leader has been offline for more than 30 days
> 2) then the guild members get a vote system to vote for a new leader
> 3) only one vote can be cast per @handle
> 4) the person being voted for has to have been active within the last 30
> 5) this will ensure a peaceful transition of power no?
> 6) go to line 1
>
> Completely missing the problem, this sort of thing already exists in a simpler form.
>
> The problem is that if you have multiple rank 7s, one can kick or demote the others and completely take over.
No person of equal rank should be able to kick another of equal rank ...
A motion to demote someone of equal rank should be possible but take 15 days at least to commence after a vote
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
I've been robbed twice IRL - and while losing your stuff really sucks, what really gets to you is the fact that you fell prey to some degenerate. You know? Suffering defeat at the hands of a banana is infinitely preferable to being brought down by someone who's inferior in every way that matters. Still, I'd much rather be in @frostflowr 's shoes than the crook's. You've suffered a huge loss, but you haven't given up or given in which is laudable. The person who robbed you lost a lot more than he gained, but the poor fool's too stupid to comprehend that. Better to die of plague than live as a plague rat.
On the one hand, this certainly looks like a definite breach of contract, and I hope the devs find a way to enforce their rules and protect the players who abide by them.
On the other hand - looking at it from an rpg perspective.... it's . . . interesting. I'm only saying this because just the other day I was reading up on Downtime Activities with my tabletop group. Some of the younger members have a difficult time with the concept of role playing, so I was trying to explain to one of them why it makes more sense for her Thief to pursue Crime than Work or Crafting an Item. Anyway, having that in mind while I was reading about this obvious crime, it occurred to me that here in Neverwinter, players have to contend with real thieves - which is as I said, interesting. Taking down a Stronghold would be pretty high up there - like a DC 25. But that said, it's unfair, because even on tabletop, there are major consequences if you get caught, so going after a mark with a high DC poses a real risk. That's where this parallel falls flat. In a case like this where apparently the criminal player's stupid enough to get caught so easily, stupid enough to get his username spread around the community at large - you'd think the ramifications for such incompetence would follow swiftly. I mean, come on. Apparently this isn't the first time this guy has rolled the dice and lost the roll.... and nothing has happened. Reading through the comments, it's obvious that other players keep rolling the dice, and losing the roll, yet nothing has happened to them either.
At this point they're just thumbing their noses at the devs because they think the devs either can't touch them, or won't. And nothing would please me more than to see the surprise on their stupid looking faces when they go to log on and find that they've been permanently banned. Ha ha ha!
I'd be willing to bet that the community as a whole would be more than happy to skip the occasional update while the devs periodically dropped everything to focus on pillorying a few delinquents. Ban 'em and post their names where everyone can see - nail their digital hides to the Tree of Elemental Balance - or better yet, just post the number of accounts banned - let their names instantly blink out of existence.
The issue is not just turning over guild leaders to other members. Although Misfit's is more fraud, I'm sure the person is looking to sell your former SH18.
1)Guild Members can be kicked with no ramifications to Guild. In DDO, if you are kicked the guild loses 25% renown and could potentially drop Guild Levels. This is the biggest issue IMO.
2)Guild Boon's are permanent and are lost if removed from guild. Guild Boons are OP with Guild Rank and non existent at lower levels. Cannot be shared with Non Guild Members too temporarily!!!
3)Should really only be One Guild Leader and rest lower rank. With one rank Successor. And predetermined time
for turn over with no login to Successor. Or other rank based on seniority. DDO has this method.
4)Need Point system to determine total Guild Contribution of each Member. Not just Guild Marks. Or System that carrys over.
In DDO it's guild renown. as noted above guild loses 25% if kicked, and lower amount if person leaves on good terms.
Maybe take all Guild Marks, if kicked and active. Need set time of absence. Person would take over guild Rank0 with this method!
Sorry, but if i spend real money, and my investment are protected in this way by the company, i will do that.
Is not possible having an SGH stolen so easly, is really this the level of protection that Cryptic give to his user/Player?
People has spent real money on that SGH, real Money. Where is the added value that i've paid for? You can't give enought protection on this kind of scam? Cryptic Fault.
Good to see that "NOW" they are doing something about that, will see the implementation of their hard work in maybe mod 18/19.
Is not possible that the scammer are protected in this way by privacy reason, there is no privacy for scammer.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
The fact is that you cannot write a program that perfectly guards against things that criminals and scammers can do. Personally, I don't have much sympathy for people this happens to because I can't understand why anyone would be so trusting. I also can't understand why people don't leave the promoting to the person whose second account it supposedly belongs to and let/force/have that person promote their own "second account alt" to the level they want them at in the guild. These scams are the kinds of things I expect from people, too. (Yes, I have an abysmally low opinion of people. When they do good or nice things, I am pleasantly surprised. When they do bad or mean things, I am prepared.)
Edited to add: Keeping yourself and your possessions secure, even online or in a virtual world, is primarily one's own responsibility. The developers have done what they can. Guarding against social engineering - and make no mistake, this scam is a form of social engineering - is very difficult and mostly falls to the users. The developers can only do so much.
Only GL can kick officers. The other title is Successor... I have only heard of guild spats of officers kicking all members.
Not of full guild take over and removing all members, officers and additional GL.
It is always my opinion that Developers can do better and improvements are always necessary. When a hole is found,
it needs to be filled in. Especially fraud
I would like to see system that protects regular guild members from easily being kicked out for no reason. Make a system that carry's over to another guild, member keeps partial amount of contributions when kicked and guild loses those contributions.
Based on length with guild, length away from the game and if member parted on good terms.
I have a saying, I trust you as far as I can throw you. But that doesn't mean, i don't have compassion for someone else!
My guild in NWN did have multiple R7's before they all went MIA. So you cannot say, it won't happen to me.
It's easy to point blame at poor guy who was trusting and say it'll never be you, doesn't mean NWN shouldn't add protection.
Or that they don't have an obligation.
Well than they should've never protected character deletion, or item deletion. I have no sympathy for someone who cannot type right character name or is too quick moving items and lost one! But i do.
Harumph! Bear better stay of my damn lawn!
The devs set up a system where months, if not years, of effort can be stolen overnight. If the refuse to set that right, fine. But the least they owed us, was to let us know that this situation exists, And they should have done that THE FIRST TIME IT HAPPENED!
I say the devs have done what they can because there isn't an algorithmic solution to this without fundamentally changing the way this guild system is set up. Frankly, social engineering vulnerabilities are almost impossible to solve with software. Social engineering vulnerabilities are people problems and that requires training users. Again, the fact that one rank 7 member can demote another rank 7 member should be perfectly obvious, particularly to anyone who has a character that is a rank 7 member in a guild.
Beyond putting up a sticky post on the forums to alert users and training their CS on how to investigate these problems and correct them, I don't really see that the developers have anything more that they can do or should be required to do. I do feel that Cryptic should at least be as helpful as possible to players who fall victim to this scam. They really shouldn't allow "selling" a guild. In my opinion, that should be just as verboten as buying AD, Zen, or items from a third-party. The problem with that approach is it would lead to banning the person who fell victim, as well as (ideally) banning the person who perpetrated the scam. So, yes, Cryptic could do more in these situations and they really should do more. The goodwill from players (and preventing or recovering from the demoralization that accompanies falling victim to this scam) is worth the investment in their customer service department.
But I'm surprised by some posts.
First of all, this scam is well known, from posts years ago, lists of scammers on other popular NW resources, and even a quick search
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1238482/add-a-cool-down-to-joining-a-guild-to-curb-thiefs
Ive personally PMd some newbiew guild leaders that do not understand that those that "plz invite guild" do not want their bank, they want to see the guild roster (and each alliance guild) and look for the high rank accounts, just to try this.
This is not some interface / permission bug, it's a scam, and the same way a person don't just give away their home to some new found 'sibling' they never met in their life, they shouldn't rank up rank7 when rank7 can fully take over.
Like in RL people do fall for scams, this is, again, unfortunate, and I really really wouldn't like to be in the position of loosing a guild over such mistake, but HAMSTER happens and at least in the big picture of things, there are much worse things to be scammed off.
There are easy ways to avoid this specific scam and many related issues:
-- Single account R7 - This also prevents those "Guild leaders fought and one kicked the other and half the guild" - Dictatorship had it's benefits.
-- If you still want multiple R7, the only one that can rank alts to R7 is the account holder. You want to swap what alt on R7? no problem, swap to the alt that is R7, click "show offline members" and rank your own.
Some other things
--Don't invite everyone - I know some guilds that always on the account cap, some recruit from every zone, and spam those messages, and ofc every guild has the right to do their thing how they think it's right. But even an one sentence conversation "why you want to join us?", "How you think you will contribute ?", "Where you've heard of us? (not when spamming)" would filter 99% of the "plz invite guild".
--Have second way of contact - Even if some HAMSTER happens, angry officer kicks everyone, or who knows what, you can still can contact the majority of the members and at least let them know. One thing to kick inactives, but another to find yourself loging in one day in a guild, and the next finding yourself out without a word.
Discord works great for that, or custom channels (PC) or anything else people use nowadays.
I agree that CS can do much better in their responses. Laconic template answers is not what expected. Nor any privacy concerns.
Cryptic can do more in terms what they track, if they can't check what happened, then add the logs. Invest one time in proper logging and simple tools for CS to check the logs and you saved a lot of time and grief for many people.
Perhaps some preventative measures, yet, the ideas in many cases are disruptive due to other things, for example there is no option to change places in alliance, so to quickly reshuffle the easiest way is to demote every r7 (even alts, - No idea why it's char and not account based) do the shuffling, leaving, joining, and then rank back the R7s. With systems like votes and days and what not it will hurt lower rank guilds the most because no one will want go through the trouble of shuffling alliance for their discount.
Other are not the way, guild inheritance in case if leader left is not popularity contest, this is what rank6 are for.
Anyway, at the end, with all that CS and Cryptic can/should do, it was a scam, it was Social engineering, not a bug (and kudos for standing up to that mistake and posting - can only imagine how HAMSTER the situation is) so there is a limit to the hate on the devs and throwing blame.
To the OP, I hope you do get the guild back, or if not, build a better one.